S13.E19: Funeralia

[Pondlass1]

There has to be literally BILLIONS of souls up there in heaven.  Humans have been dying for thousands of years - since cave man times.  And a mere eleven angels in charge?  The mind boggles.

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I think the point was, you have less people, you have less butterfly effect.  It's an 'almost' starting over point.

This seems to me it would create just as much of a butter fly effect, just in a different way. 

For example if a 1000 people die unnaturally in a town and death eliminates three towns to compensate.  The deaths off all those people are going to create situations that are going to effect the lives of thousands more.

Edited April 20, 2018 by ILoveReading

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOL not even Dabb who is the head writer? Why wouldn't I expect this?

 

I'm 117% sure it was sarcasm.

There is so much canon-busting and just plain ignoring the past in this season, and in this episode especially, that I'm embarrassed by it on Dabb's behalf.

I feel like they must have edited out a scene with some sort of explanation about where Lucifer is. I'm guessing he bounced after his I-wanna-be-daddy pity party last week. But Cas is IN Heaven, being told about the dire straits, and the need for angels and grace and omfg LUCIFER is/was running things. How is that not worthy of even a mention???

One thing about it - it makes me less unhappy that Yockey is leaving. I'm still willing to start a go-fund-me to help the show hire a continuity/show-bible person. Although at this point I think it's probably too late.

Edited April 20, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Writing Wrongs]

13 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Sam needed to stop saying "save our family", though.  Like saving the rest of the world was an afterthought.  Especially to Rowena, who's just been told to suck it up and accept the fact that her son is dead and is going to stay that way.  

Yeah, that struck me as insensitive.

[companionenvy]

I forgot about the butterfly effect conversation, catrox. Yeah, it was really dumb to act like Dean wouldn't have known what that was, or had an association closer to home than a movie. I mean, the guy has gone back in time on several occasions. 

My interpretation of Billie's explanation about killing tons more people as a corrective is that in most cases, the killing of one person probably doesn't have a massive effect on the timeline, since the vast ,vast majority of people have little effect in the grand scheme of things. But every time you mess with the natural order, you run the risk of doing something that will have universe-altering consequences. For instance, say someone who would have incited a massive war dies prematurely. In the small-picture, that sounds good because it means a ton of people survive who wouldn't have -- but maybe in the longer term, it means that one of those survivors makes a key scientific discovery with radical effects on human development a millennium before that's supposed to happen, with even worse consequences. So, it is possible that the best corrective to that on the very big picture on which Billie operates that would be killing one civilization to stop  a premature discovery that might threaten all civilizations. 

I am a little confused about why Rowena's killing of these people was different than anyone else killing someone violently and prematurely. It makes sense that she was killing people in order to get a reaper to come so that she could start offing reapers and get Death's attention. But I'm not sure why the deaths of the humans themselves would cause such a problem to the timeline. I mean, if a random guy gets killed during a robbery, a reaper comes, too. Why is death by Rowena cosmically different than death by any other method? It isn't like other killers check the books of the fates before deciding whether or not it is the victim's proper time. 

[Casseiopeia]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe the Butterfly Effect is a meta take on this entire season.

So does that mean that next season (after Sam and Dean restore reality) we will all return to the original series complete with original show runner and writers?  Sam and Dean will exclaim "Let's never open that rift again!"?

[Pondlass1]

They've got to get back to basics and move away from the otherworldly stuff because they're getting themselves in a pickle and it's not making sense.

[Bobcatkitten]

13 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

They've got to get back to basics and move away from the otherworldly stuff because they're getting themselves in a pickle and it's not making sense.

I couldn't agree with this more!

[catrox14]

I'm just not following how Rowena's actions were changing fate. It makes no sense.

Deaths are not entirely destined as shown with Dean's Bookshelf of Death and his MANY deaths which all depended on Dean's choices, not someone else's from what Billie told Dean. So why wouldn't choices Rowena make about her life alter her deaths? 

Also, why would a reaper tell Sam that he would be Rowena's death unless she was trying to manipulate him. Maybe Jessica is doing her own thing? Or maybe she's being controlled just like the Reaper in s1? Which, why didn't Dean summon Billie and ask her if this is a legit thing? 

I think Naomi is Lucifer. She never used sarcasm. Naomi was totally regretful of her actions in s8. She cried when she told Dean how sorry she was for what she did and that she would help them. So now, she doesn't even apologize to Cas. Something isn't right with Naomi. I think the "excuse me for taking a few years to put my thoughts back together and time to heal" could really apple to Lucifer.

But the problem is why wouldn't Cas see Lucifer in Naomi unless it's because Lucifer's grace is much depleted? I don't know maybe I'm wrong.

[catrox14]

58 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

So does that mean that next season (after Sam and Dean restore reality) we will all return to the original series complete with original show runner and writers?  Sam and Dean will exclaim "Let's never open that rift again!"?

Unless Kripke wants to come back, I don't think so. They didn't open a rift in s1. Even if Kripke came back they can't return to the original dynamic of s1.  Nor do I want Castiel out of the show unlike many others. They would have to bring it to the present with Mary back in Heaven, John dead at the end. I don't relish John coming back as a permanent fixture. I just want John back so Dean can have some words with him.

Are they going to fix Sam's anti demon possession tattoo. Like shouldn't that have been the first thing they did after all this? 

I saw some spec on Twitter that Dean could become Fergus/Crowley. Honest to Gods, if that happens, I'll be livid. However, that would explain Jensen saying he hopes he can do it justice or whatever it was he said.

[gonzosgirrl]

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Naomi is Lucifer.

That was my first thought as well. He knows Castiel would never give him any information about Jack, Gabriel, etc., but probably thought there was a chance he would relent to help "Heaven" as a whole. It would at least make sense of there being no mention of him whatsoever.

I didn't dislike the episode so much as I found it boring and confusing (if I try reconciling it with canon). But they did get this part right. Such a Dean thing to say when all is said and done.

[Myrelle]

For a microsecond, I thought Naomi might be Lucifer also, but when I think about who wrote this one, I have to doubt it. I think that with Dabb/Singer at the helm, there is very little room for something that creative and Berens has followed Dabb's lead pretty much w/o fail since Dabb took over-which is really sad and too bad especially when you consider that Berens also wrote The Werther Project once upon a time.

There was too much WTF?! writing in this one for me to deem it a decent episode, but I did like seeing LeaderDean in his conversation with Cas at the beginning and the overall feeling of LeaderDean throughout this one(aside from his telling Rowena that Sam will be the one to kill her, of course-that being one of the biggest WTF?! moments to me in an episode that was just chock full of them. Oy.) 

I do, however, think that Rowena's murders in this episode could be seen as going against "fate" if one believes in the theory of Predeterminism or something like that, meaning some people are "fated" to be murdered or victims of murder while the people she was murdering in this episode were not in that category. And Death/Billie has this knowledge now.

[Aeryn13]

I thought this was a middle-of-the-road episode. 

The A-plot pretty much hinged on character exploration for Rowena. In a way it was her "The Man who would be King" for Cas. However that worked better because Cas` motivations were believable in it for the character. Rowena going so OTT angst over Fergus who "never had a chance" was just too much. It simply didn`t fit her character.

Then of course the motif of everyone and the kitchen sink getting a redemption story now is too heavyhanded. Keep it to one character at a time, two is already a recipe for disaster but this Season it is Ketch, Rowena and next up likely Gabriel.

I liked Dean winning the fight without being rescued by anyone and Jessica commenting on his prowess. Yes, I live for those little moments now. 

Telling Rowena Sam was the one to kill her on the other hand? Sigh. 

The B-plot wasn`t bad but Lucifer not being around when Cas stumbles right into the throne room and sits on this stupid couch there? This is such a gaffe, it was embarassing. 

I do think the set-up for Heaven in peril is interesting. Though no idea why Lucifer`s presence wouldn`t help. He is an archangel, isn`t he? So he should power the thing just like Gabriel would. They have both been weakened and grace-drained recently, even though Gabe got one dose back. I`m not seeing why either one would significantly trump the other as a battery. 

It could be a story to bring in Michael but we`ll see. 

[Katy M]

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Naomi is Lucifer. She never used sarcasm. Naomi was totally regretful of her actions in s8. She cried when she told Dean how sorry she was for what she did and that she would help them. So now, she doesn't even apologize to Cas. Something isn't right with Naomi. I think the "excuse me for taking a few years to put my thoughts back together and time to heal" could really apple to Lucifer.

I hope you're right.  It would explain where Lucifer was.  It would explain why nobody mentioned him.  And, we wouldn't need a contrived explanation for how she was alive again and off the board for 4 years.

[SueB]

14 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The reaper said in every iteration of Rowena's death, it's Sam who kills her. Except for the two times Lucifer has already? LOL.

It really was dumb to have Dean tell Rowena about it. It was also dumb to think she'd then just blithely sit there and let Sam cuff her. Oy. 

So did Lucifer bounce after his pity party last week? Or was it just not relevant for anyone to tell him Satan was running the show? 

Since neither took, they* don’t count (I presume). So somehow Sam is the one who kills her for good.  

 

On Angel’s powering Heaven:

- Seems to me souls and believers dictate power of God, not necessarily the musltispectral cosmic construct that is Heaven. It also seems like Angels leverage that power, can house that power, but can’t run in that power.     I think on SPN, Chuck actually has the power of the creator so I’m not sure how many worshippers he needs (compared to Calliope or Vestra).  

- What we see is human souls residing in Heaven, not running it. I think there’s a difference.

- We know grace power is different than soul power and not interchangeable.   That fits with the notion of separation of the cosmic construct versus those housed in the cosmic construct.  

- So, grace powersthe construct, souls power how much God and Heaven can wield.   

- Therefore grace is needed to keep the construct open. 

Edited April 21, 2018 by SueB
*I originally typed this on my phone and autocorrect somehow got "hide" out of what I was typing? Bizzaro.

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, SueB said:

Since neither took, hide don’t count (I presume). So somehow Sam is the one who kills her for good.

I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. I'm sure they meant to put Sam being the one to kill Rowena into canon, but adding in the 'every time you die, it's him' was stupid, and contradicted canon. Just because she resurrected herself doesn't mean she wasn't most sincerely dead. In fact I'd say she needed to be dead for the spell to kick in. In my opinon it was, if not LOL!Canon (I know it, I just DGAF), then ignorance of canon (I didn't know any better because I never watch the show unless it's my episode, and even then sometimes I forget). Either way, it's crap writing. IMO of course.

Also, I can see Chuck being dick enough to let the angels he created go extinct, and maybe usher in a new crop via the cinnamon roll. But is he dick enough to make all the presumably-good souls who made it to heaven pay the price, too? Not to mention the havoc created for the people on Earth if they all 'fall'. Probably.

[Jonesy]

Damn I really loved this episode--one of my favorites of the season.  Give it a 10.    Yockey is my new favorite--I love his sort breezy, spontaneous almost loosy goosy vibe to his episodes while getting pertinent character bits to the characters.  I also enjoyed the plot directions this episode took.   Had a perfect pace to it also...great fun.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

and Berens has followed Dabb's lead pretty much w/o fail since Dabb took over-which is really sad and too bad especially when you consider that Berens also wrote The Werther Project once upon a time.

FWIW, Steve Yockey wrote this episode

[catrox14]

I thought the conversation between Dean and Cas was pretty equal and yes it felt like an old married couple argument which is probably my Destiel leanings coming through. I didn't get that Dean was given Cas permission to do it, but more that he was like, "Okay, my dude. I'm worried, but okay, do what you think is best but don't you dare die again" aka "I'm worried AF but I trust you, I love you" (Leave me to my Destiel goggles)

Sam is just weird now.  Dean was pissed at him about Rowena. And it was a fair thing to be mad about. Yet Sam acts like Dean has no right to be worried and annoyed. Much of Dean's anger is really misplaced worry. He doesn't hate Sam. He's worried about it.

And I also think maybe he's having flashbacks to Sam and Ruby and he doesn't want Sam to get played more by Rowena nor get attached to her.

And I'm calling a Samwena pairing which I will remind, I called back in the Werther Project when he was hallucinating that "arm rub" (aka hand job) to get all his blood out.  I'm just noting this for posterity. LOL. I think that's why he was so upset about having to shoot her. He likes her more than he should.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

lling Rowena Sam was the one to kill her on the other hand? Sigh

I wondered if maybe Dean thought if he told her that she would believe it and go away. Or she would stop because she likes Samuel enough to not want to do something that makes him kill her. 

Otherwise it was just stupid. I dunno that's the only reason I can figure him blurting that out.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

He is an archangel, isn`t he? So he should power the thing just like Gabriel would.

Unless him siphoning Sister Jo's grace reduced his power. I mean to me it should. Or he's got a long game.

I don't know why Cas is completely believing Naomi. He needs to do his own research on this. He has no reason to believe any of the angels really. 

Angels supposedly can tell when humans are lying. Can they do that with angels?

[catrox14]

59 minutes ago, SueB said:

Since neither took, hide don’t count (I presume). So somehow Sam is the one who kills her for good.  

 

She died.  She resurrected herself with the Resurrection Seal.  If those don't count as deaths for Rowena then Dean has ever died, Sam has never died, Mary has never died.

The show can't have it both ways. 

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Unless Kripke wants to come back, I don't think so. They didn't open a rift in s1. Even if Kripke came back they can't return to the original dynamic of s1.  Nor do I want Castiel out of the show unlike many others. They would have to bring it to the present with Mary back in Heaven, John dead at the end. I don't relish John coming back as a permanent fixture. I just want John back so Dean can have some words with him.

Are they going to fix Sam's anti demon possession tattoo. Like shouldn't that have been the first thing they did after all this? 

I saw some spec on Twitter that Dean could become Fergus/Crowley. Honest to Gods, if that happens, I'll be livid. However, that would explain Jensen saying he hopes he can do it justice or whatever it was he said.

Well we could go back to S3-6 theoretically.  And it doesn't have to be Kripke.  I have always wondered what John Shiban is doing these days.

[catrox14]

53 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. I'm sure they meant to put Sam being the one to kill Rowena into canon, but adding in the 'every time you die, it's him' was stupid, and contradicted canon. Just because she resurrected herself doesn't mean she wasn't most sincerely dead. In fact I'd say she needed to be dead for the spell to kick in. In my opinon it was, if not LOL!Canon (I know it, I just DGAF), then ignorance of canon (I didn't know any better because I never watch the show unless it's my episode, and even then sometimes I forget). Either way, it's crap writing. IMO of course.

Also, I can see Chuck being dick enough to let the angels he created go extinct, and maybe usher in a new crop via the cinnamon roll. But is he dick enough to make all the presumably-good souls who made it to heaven pay the price, too? Not to mention the havoc created for the people on Earth if they all 'fall'. Probably.

I agree 100% with all of this. I love your definitions of LOLcanon and canon ignorance. Those made my day. Thank you!

My headcanon to make this fit with her previous deaths and resurrections is that Crowley, who in 12.23, said he always thought he would be the one to kill Rowena but he killed himself, that somehow that "fate" transferred to Sam after Crowley died. Maybe because Sam helped Crowley with the spell to close the rift. That works for me. 

[Katy M]

59 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. I'm sure they meant to put Sam being the one to kill Rowena into canon, but adding in the 'every time you die, it's him' was stupid, and contradicted canon. Just because she resurrected herself doesn't mean she wasn't most sincerely dead. In fact I'd say she needed to be dead for the spell to kick in. In my opinon it was, if not LOL!Canon (I know it, I just DGAF), then ignorance of canon (I didn't know any better because I never watch the show unless it's my episode, and even then sometimes I forget). Either way, it's crap writing. IMO of course.

I don't know.  If we're talking ultimate fate then I think only permanent death would count.  However, I find the whole thing stupid, because Dean had several possible deaths. We're supposed to believe that the only way Rowena could ever die is if Sam killed her.  Maybe Death was just trying to get something going by wanting Rowena to kill Sam and putting them in that position.  And, if we now have fate engineering everything and everyone has an appointed time to die, have we given up on free will?  The stuff in this epi just irked me so much.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Well we could go back to S3-6 theoretically.  And it doesn't have to be Kripke.  I have always wondered what John Shiban is doing these days.

IMDB has his most recent work being Hell on Wheels and DaVinci's Demons (which was not that bad in the end). And something called Blackbird. 

[Bergamot]

16 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

To be fair, Rowena has shown signs of seeking a bit of redemption since Chuck and Amara came to town.  She started questioning her life then, and acknowledging that she'd done some awful things.

Yes, that is true. But still, I found Rowena being all weepy and hysterical about Crowley (of all people!) to be unconvincing and over-the-top. Maybe it would have been easier to swallow if she had been trying to bring back her beloved Oskar instead of Crowley. Also, I often found her scenes in this one, both dialogue and acting, to be too exaggerated and overdramatic, if not hokey. Like in one of her scenes when when she tearfully and oh-so-melodramatically declaims, "Sam, what have I DONE?!" (And also, what exactly was she referring to at that point anyway? Because that sounded so odd to me.) 

I thought some of the writing for Sam when he was with Rowena was verging on overdramatic as well. Like his "Were you just playing me the whole time??" Gasp! He might as well have demanded like a jilted lover, "Were you just USING me?!" Good grief, Sam, it's Rowena -- of course she was.

I didn't believe that Rowena would suddenly grow a conscience any more than I thought Ketch would. But at least I understood what Ketch was trying to do. Did Rowena think that by bringing Crowley back from the dead she was "giving him a chance"? A chance to do what? Unless he was brought back as a child, she could not undo what she had done to him. Unless maybe she thought she could give him a chance to redeem himself, I guess?

To tell the truth, I was relieved to hear Dean cut through all the drama and the tears and bluntly tell her in regard to Crowley, "He made his choices, just like we all do". Because I was thinking the same thing.
 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Sam is just weird now.  Dean was pissed at him about Rowena. And it was a fair thing to be mad about. Yet Sam acts like Dean has no right to be worried and annoyed.

That`s pretty normal, though. I roll my eyes at it, yes, but nothing out of left field. 

 

Quote

She died.  She resurrected herself with the Resurrection Seal.  If those don't count as deaths for Rowena then Dean has ever died, Sam has never died, Mary has never died.

The show can't have it both ways. 

I agree. Rowena was honestly dead, now she isn`t. Doesn`t mean Lucifer didn`t kill her two times. All the other "deaths" count after characters endlessly resurrected themselves. 

Show could have simply said "NOW, your destiny is to be killed by Sam". That acknowledges her past killings by Lucifer, just leaves them in the past. 

IMO, that is the same kind of gaffe like Cas going to heaven and Lucifer being nowhere in sight. Or Reapers suddenly not being angels anymore. The show wants to have its canon tailored to the likings of each individual writer, what they want and they remember. And that is simply not creating a cohesive canon. With some things you can`t even bend backwards to explain them, like Lucifer being the "firstborn" in light of the entire Season 5.  

 

Quote

I thought some of the writing for Sam when he was with Rowena was verging on overdramatic as well. Like his "Were you just playing me the whole time??" Gasp! He might as well have demanded like a jilted lover, "Were you just USING me?!" 

Teehee. Yes, some of that stuff was pretty funny. Maybe not on purpose but because they played a lot of Rowena`s drama about poor orphan Fergus so over the top, it veered over into comical. Which is why the episode itself didn`t work that well for me. It hinged on the viewer buying into the drama. And I thought it was well-acted by Ruth, just not that well-written for the character.

I thought the ending scene was good, though. Everyone was toned down. Rowena wasn`t as histrionic but had moved into acceptance. Everyone was both a bit glum and solemn but also calm about it, maybe with an air of hopefullness. That came across well. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes, that is true. But still, I found Rowena being all weepy and hysterical about Crowley (of all people!) to be unconvincing and over-the-top. Maybe it would have been easier to swallow if she had been trying to bring back her beloved Oskar instead of Crowley. Also, I often found her scenes in this one, both dialogue and acting, to be too exaggerated and overdramatic, if not hokey. Like in one of her scenes when when she tearfully and oh-so-melodramatically declaims, "Sam, what have I DONE?!" (And also, what exactly was she referring to at that point anyway? Because that sounded so odd to me.) 

I thought some of the writing for Sam when he was with Rowena was verging on overdramatic as well. Like his "Were you just playing me the whole time??" Gasp! He might as well have demanded like a jilted lover, "Were you just USING me?!" Good grief, Sam, it's Rowena -- of course she was.

I didn't believe that Rowena would suddenly grow a conscience any more than I thought Ketch would. But at least I understood what Ketch was trying to do. Did Rowena think that by bringing Crowley back from the dead she was "giving him a chance"? A chance to do what? Unless he was brought back as a child, she could not undo what she had done to him. Unless maybe she thought she could give him a chance to redeem himself, I guess?

To tell the truth, I was relieved to hear Dean cut through all the drama and the tears and bluntly tell her in regard to Crowley, "He made his choices, just like we all do". Because I was thinking the same thing.
 

I agree with all of this. If she had remorse/regret over Gavin, I could maybe accept it. He truly didn't ask for his 'fate' nor deserve it - none of it was his choice, where as her beloved Fergus was willing to sell his soul, not to avoid starving or to find a great love, but for three more inches of willy. Jeebus.

 

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I don't know.  If we're talking ultimate fate then I think only permanent death would count.  However, I find the whole thing stupid, because Dean had several possible deaths. We're supposed to believe that the only way Rowena could ever die is if Sam killed her.  Maybe Death was just trying to get something going by wanting Rowena to kill Sam and putting them in that position.  And, if we now have fate engineering everything and everyone has an appointed time to die, have we given up on free will?  The stuff in this epi just irked me so much.

Exactly. Dean had several shelves worth of ways to die (and presumably of having died in the past), and they weren't all by the same manner. Why would Rowena's fate only be to die by Sam's hand? If there are already shelves full of possibility for her, that says to me Sam would have to have tried, or will try, to kill her multiple times in multiple ways. Makes no sense.

Question: Were we to understand that Rowena blew her load (so to speak) of this purple magic in trying to kill Billie? Is she back to being just a regular witch again?

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Question: Were we to understand that Rowena blew her load (so to speak) of this purple magic in trying to kill Billie? Is she back to being just a regular witch again?

I have no idea. I wish I knew. But Sam's "you're still the most powerful witch out there" implies that she did.

I swear I think Sam is in love with Rowena. I really do.

[ILoveReading]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I swear I think Sam is in love with Rowena. I really do.

Poor Gabriel.  Sam moved on quick.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Poor Gabriel.  Sam moved on quick.

Oh I think Sam has had a thing for Rowena since she showed up. ( See my previous comment about the Werther Project LOL).  I'm not even kidding. Sam was just manipulating Gabriel IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I swear I think Sam is in love with Rowena. I really do.

 

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Poor Gabriel.  Sam moved on quick.

I laughed SO loud just now, my boss came to see what was so funny. I could not begin to explain. :D

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

I laughed SO loud just now, my boss came to see what was so funny. I could not begin to explain. :D

LOL well this makes me happy. I'm glad I helped bring a smile to your face.

[Castiels Cat]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That entire Butterfly Effect discussion annoyed me to no end.

This is the kind of exposition that hurts character. DEAN himself, spent an entire day learning a personal lesson about the Butterfly Effect, taught to him by DEATH himself, in "Appointment in Samarra" wherein Dean was wearing Death's ring and disallowed the girl's death and all of the consequences. So, instead of Dean being allowed to say something like 'Yeah, I know. I learned about it myself', Yockey only gives him a dumb line about Ashton's 2nd best movie and then stands there looking perplexed at the idea or something.  WTF show. That's awful continuity.

Was that a lesson about the butterfly effect or was that a lesson about the universe's rules.

I don't think that was a butterfly effect situation.  I think the problem was that Dean did not follow the rules.  Death wanted him to learn a lesson.

Perhaps the butterfly effect came up latter in the titanic episode. I do not renember.

[Castiels Cat]

19 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It seems like Supernatural needs to change its tag line from Family doesn't end with blood to "you get a redemption, you get a redemption, everyone gets a redemption" 

It feels like no one is really a threat on this show anymore.  I can't even say AU Michael is because he's so underdeveloped.

That's what I liked about Crowley.  He may help the Winchesters more often then not, but I never stopped believing he'd throw them under the bus if it benefitted him. 

As for why Rowena was suddenly all "I love humanity" it feels like it was done to make sure Sam giving her the page isn't a mistake.

And yet Crowley inexplicably kills himself to end Lucifer and it doesn't work?!!!  Most ofc thing ever written.  He better be am over somewhere in AU Apocalypse complaining about the accommodations.

[Katy M]

6 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Was that a lesson about the butterfly effect or was that a lesson about the universe's rules.

I don't think that was a butterfly effect situation.  I think the problem was that Dean did not follow the rules.  Death wanted him to learn a lesson.

Perhaps the butterfly effect came up latter in the titanic episode. I do not renember.

I think the lesson was about the natural order.  But, Dean still learned about how one thing could effect someone else.  But, yeah, I think the butterfly effect was emphasized more in My Heart Will Go On. 

[AngelKitty]

I enjoyed that episode, but then I do like Rowena and her melodramatic antics. I figured early on that she was trying to get Death to bring back Crowley and was disappointed that wasn't going to work. I miss Crowley.

I was surprised Lucifer wasn't in Heaven. I kept expecting him to show up any minute.

Someone upthread said something about the alternate universe angels coming here to power Heaven. I think that's what will have to happen.

[MysteryGuest]

I just watched it again, and my opinion of the episode hasn't really changed much.  It wasn't awful, but there were a lot of holes and some cringeworthy dialogue.  Dean blabbing to Rowena about Sam being the one to kill her, and Sam telling Rowena they need her help to save their family didn't go down any easier the second time around.  Is there really such a dearth of writing talent in Hollywood?  

Ultimately, we learned three things...Heaven is dying, Rowena is back on the boys' side and Billie has something up her sleeve involving Dean.  Four more episodes to figure out how it all comes together...if it does.

I don't know about the theory that Naomi is really Lucifer in disguise.  Considering Cas' history with her, what would Lucifer hope to gain from Cas by impersonating her, of all people (or angels)?  He did end up listening to her, but I would think that Lucifer would have chosen someone that Cas would have trusted more readily.  It's stupid that no one bothered to mention that Lucifer'd been there, unless he's threatened them not to say anything.  Who knows.  Sister Jo walked out on him the last time we saw them, so I have no clue where she is.  Does she have the ability to just leave Heaven on her own now?  I got the impression she needed Lucifer to help her get back to Heaven the first time, but maybe I'm wrong about that.  

[Myrelle]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

FWIW, Steve Yockey wrote this episode

Now it just feels worse to me that I thought it was Berens' writing. Yockey could be getting away just in time. ;-)

[SueB]

Finished my rewatch.  Additional bits picked up/responses to discussion (jump to what interests you, it's a bit rambly):

Kitchen scene: Dean asks Cas if he wants a beer.  Cas says no. Dean gets him a beer anyway. WHY is that so adorable? It's just so... familiar.  I have relationships like that. It's nice to see those things portrayed on tv.  Nice touch.  And I like that they are touching on the last conflict they had regarding Donatello.  Dean was fussy about that and Cas is sticking to his guns.  But this is what you do with people that are an essential part of your life.  You WORK for the relationship and don't fester (at least not for long).  I feel like Sam and Dean have really nailed down their relationship. Don't always agree, but they don't let things fester.  So I'm glad to see that this is being applied to Cas as well.

Heaven's situation: I appreciated the shell-shocked faces & depressed angel.  I don't know if they are all 'tired' or what, but all the righteousness has gone out of their sails. They can't even get mad at Castiel anymore.  I also liked Cas' awkward exposition in the face of those blank stares.  I also liked the bored Cas sequence as he waited in Naomi's old office.   Misha did some excellent non-verbal comedy.
Naomi: Hissssssssss.  She's not remotely penitent about hurting Cas in the past.  I believe she's absolutely on the level regarding the plight of the Angels. At this stage she's willing to work with him because she's always been about duty. But in S8 she forgot what that duty was (protecting humans) and now she's crystal clear (take care of the human souls in heaven). I also liked her veiled reference to Lucifer ("they thought any archangel would do") .   
Discussion Topic on Heaven's state: I think Naomi's done the right thing for now. Close the gates and try to hold on until help arrives. They are clearly on the hairy edge. I think Lucifer wasn't remotely interested in helping the Angels. Or 'doing his job'.  Jo kept telling him to do that.  But unlike what Dean said regarding Rowena, Lucifer had a shot in Heaven and he just squandered it. I think Lucifer is beyond redemption and Rowena provides a nice foil for his failings.  I think this current crisis in Heaven is going to put not just Gabriel but our boys in a pickle. If Gabriel needs his recovering grace to help Heaven (if he eve will stand up), is it okay to take some to go back to AU world?

Meeting Jessica: I liked her.  Sure, they live interesting lives, but how would do you entertain yourself on monitor duty in the bunker?  Watching Sam in the shower and Dean having "me" time?  I think she just wanted to creep them out a bit, cause it was fun, or she would have been more discrete. Regardless of motivation, I liked her candor. And if I was Sam or Dean, I'd call out her name every once in a while to see if she was still watching. 
Discussion Topic on Rowena's Fate: The show, IMO, is still Team Free Will.  With Dean, Billie said he had so many different 'ends' because of the choices he made.  But Rowena was clearly going to be killed by Sam.  I think Rowena is an anomaly.  Maybe she used to have more choices but once she broke the chains that bound her, now there's many choices she can still make but somehow only Sam will be able to kill her.  OR maybe there's something that requires a final choice on Rowena's part and only Sam is the one that she enables to kill her.  Either way, a 'natural witch' THIS powerful is probably noticeable on a cosmic level and thus some of the ways she can die may be very limited.  So it may not be that her exact fate is sealed but that there is a limited number of ways to kill her and something about Sam or something about the relationship b/w Sam and Rowena is what enables her to die. Either way, this is not going to be solved soon IMO.  This is setting up for later down the road.   
Discussion Topic on Dean spilling the bean to Rowena: Dean sees Death as reliable as Chuck when it comes to power. If Jessica says Sam kills Rowena, I think Dean completely believes it and is as relieved as Rowena.  Rowena is relieved because it won't be Sam.  Dean is relieved because I think he believes she won't end up killing Sam.  But I don't think he was certain of that until the end of the episode.  So...why'd he do it?  I think it was because he wanted Rowena to know that Sam is not swayed by her tears. Maybe it's a big brother thing but he didn't like Sam helping Rowena.  And now that he knows Sam ultimately kills Rowena, I think he's worried about a Ruby-like repeat.  So that was a "so there!" moment to Rowena.  And by the end of the episode, with her unable to bring herself to kill Sam, this further eases his worry.  

Rowena's story:   As others have mentioned, she really has been on this path since Amara/God. The first death at the hands of Lucifer shook her, but Amara & Chuck messed up her whole raison d'etra: get all the power. Because (as she said) they had all the power and it didn't make them happy.  She hasn't been on a world domination scheme since.  And her regret was leaving Fergus as a child (and not reconciling before Crowley's death) - she said it straight out.  When she was unambigously evil, she did (IMO) have real pride at what Crowley achieved. Now she's realized her selfishness put Fergus on a path to demonhood. And he was every bit as clever as she.  But Dean was right, Crowley made those choices.  Not everyone who is abandoned by their mother turns into the King of Hell.  I really like how she just completely came clean to Death and said "I don't know what I'm doing!".  Rowena really is a strong woman (and yay! for snarking back at Dean that she won't have a breakdown).  She naturally finds a new mission (save her son) and now has to start again as that's not going to happen.  She's also completely vulnerable to Sam (more on that below).  Also, I REALLY hope Bernard isn't dead.  She needs that loyalty.

Samwitch: Well, I don't know if it'll ever go romantic, but Sam and Rowena clearly have a special bond that's now been reinforced.  From the moment he chained her to that pole and they got in each other's faces, there's been a little frisson.  But it's still a crackship because Supernatural just doesn't do long-term romantic relationships for the boys.  And there's too much evil water under the bridge.  But they genuinely LIKE each other. Both are very clever people with regrets who have also been terrorized by Lucifer personally.  That's like a very small club.  So, I hope they continue to explore this because like Dean/Crowley or Dean/Cas, you learn more about your main characters (in this case Sam) through their interactions with others.  And Sam hasn't had that.  Not really.  I'm good with it being Rowena.  More sustainable than Gabriel IMO.

Foreshadowing potential: @catrox14 mentioned it on the previous page, but I thought it as well: are we gearing up for some sort of reset?  We've got:
- 'big dumb Winchesters stomping thru interdimensional rifts' (from Adv Thanatology). 
- Angels down to a tiny number shutting Heaven temporarily.
- Jessica talking about Death injecting a reset.  We've got Death saying she'll see Dean soon! (YIKES!). 
I don't know what is going to happen but I bet the scene where Jessica talks about a reset in this episode shows up in a "THEN" sequence.  I don't WANT a reset, so I hope that's avoided. 

This is an episode that bears multiple watching IMO.  A lot of chess pieces are being put in play. 

[sarthaz]

Sorry I haven't read the entire thread, but what the fucking fuck? Seriously. What the fucking fuck?!? Dabb's the piece of shit who decided reapers were suddenly angels so he could crap all over Tessa, and now that's he's showruiner, we get an episode that claims there are only 9-11 angels left in the middle of an episode that implies there are plenty of reapers to go around. WHAT IS HAPPENING?!? Naomi's return is all the stupids. Loved drunk angel, loved the scenes with Rowena, loved the fight choreography -- but what the fucking fuck?

[sarthaz]

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

That entire Butterfly Effect discussion annoyed me to no end.

This is the kind of exposition that hurts character. DEAN himself, spent an entire day learning a personal lesson about the Butterfly Effect, taught to him by DEATH himself, in "Appointment in Samarra" wherein Dean was wearing Death's ring and disallowed the girl's death and all of the consequences. So, instead of Dean being allowed to say something like 'Yeah, I know. I learned about it myself', Yockey only gives him a dumb line about Ashton's 2nd best movie and then stands there looking perplexed at the idea or something.  WTF show. That's awful continuity.

All. Of. This.

[Advance35]

Quote

Rowena's story:   As others have mentioned, she really has been on this path since Amara/God. The first death at the hands of Lucifer shook her, but Amara & Chuck messed up her whole raison d'etra: get all the power. Because (as she said) they had all the power and it didn't make them happy.  She hasn't been on a world domination scheme since.  And her regret was leaving Fergus as a child (and not reconciling before Crowley's death) - she said it straight out.  When she was unambigously evil, she did (IMO) have real pride at what Crowley achieved. Now she's realized her selfishness put Fergus on a path to demonhood. And he was every bit as clever as she.  But Dean was right, Crowley made those choices.  Not everyone who is abandoned by their mother turns into the King of Hell.  I really like how she just completely came clean to Death and said "I don't know what I'm doing!".  Rowena really is a strong woman (and yay! for snarking back at Dean that she won't have a breakdown).  She naturally finds a new mission (save her son) and now has to start again as that's not going to happen.  She's also completely vulnerable to Sam (more on that below).  Also, I REALLY hope Bernard isn't dead.  She needs that loyalty.

I really like what they've done with Rowena's character.  I couldn't stand her when we first met her but somewhere along the way, she grew on me.   I started to see Rowena's experience some growth most notably,  when she had to help Sam get Dean's memories back.   She's was still self-absorbed, shallow, vindictive and sneaky but there was a sense of reflection there as well.   I think regret is a universal theme and that's why I was able to enjoy her storyline.   She lost so much on the road to where she is and she never took any notice while she was walking the path.  Now when she's climbed to the highest point of the Witches pyramid, she's finding that there is plenty of room at the top but not much company.   Her awakening came far to late for her to ever have any closure with Crowley and that's a regret she will have to carry with her forever.   Billie's speech to Rowena was oddly and coldly poignant.   When Rowena cried "I don't know what I'm doing."   I believed her, she isn't use to regret and inner pain, she's use to only caring about herself.

Quote

Samwitch: Well, I don't know if it'll ever go romantic, but Sam and Rowena clearly have a special bond that's now been reinforced.  From the moment he chained her to that pole and they got in each other's faces, there's been a little frisson.  But it's still a crackship because Supernatural just doesn't do long-term romantic relationships for the boys.  And there's too much evil water under the bridge.  But they genuinely LIKE each other. Both are very clever people with regrets who have also been terrorized by Lucifer personally.  That's like a very small club.  So, I hope they continue to explore this because like Dean/Crowley or Dean/Cas, you learn more about your main characters (in this case Sam) through their interactions with others.  And Sam hasn't had that.  Not really.  I'm good with it being Rowena.  More sustainable than Gabriel IMO.

It came out of nowhere for me. During "Regarding Dean" I saw glimmers of it and I thought "nah."  Then when she met Dean and Sam in the factory, and Sam grabbed her to stop her from leaving, I thought "woah" then "No."  Her appearance earlier this season and then this episode.  The only love interest I've ever seen Sam have chemistry with was Sarah Blakely.   I doubt Sam/Rowena will go romantic but it is one of my favorite character pairings.    I think Sam is reluctantly cares a great deal about Rowena.  It started through the Lucifer connection and now.......after everything he saw and heard during her confrontation with "Death",  I bet if Lucifer tried to kill Rowena now, afraid or not, He'd probably have to go through Sam first.

I also do love Sam's relationship with Castiel.  It's so odd couple in a way.  Sam has displayed a great deal of compassion and empathy for Castiel during times when you couldn't blame him for not.  I think Sam really took to Castiel as a kind of exasperating little cousin.  Sometimes you can tell he'd like to ring Castiel's neck but you also know he'd never let anyone else do it.  He even tries to reign Dean in, when he feels like Dean's getting to harsh with him.

Castiel, Crowley and Rowena are characters I love almost as much as Dean and Sam.   I love them more then any of the human supporting characters the show's ever had.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Advance35

[SueB]

Details I forgot to mention:
- Sam doesn't lose his tattoo.  I think Rowena was kinda torturing him to get Death's attention but she didn't actually remove the tattoo.
- Sam is saying "save our family" before he says "save the world"... maybe it's as simple as trying to avoid the "again" feel.  S5, S6, S7, S11, S13.  That's a lot of world-wide saving.  Putting the family in the conversation at least mixes it up a bit.
- Bernard deliberately lets Sam go by and tries to take out Dean.  You know that's on Rowena's orders.  Again, she's not stupid.  You don't kill Sam if Dean Winchester is still kicking.  
- I think Naomi not getting dead by the drill sort of works.  Obviously it hurt angels more than a regular drill because of the impact on Castiel and Metatron. But it wasn't an angel blade.  So, I buy her being damaged and recovered.

[BoxManLocke]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

- I think Naomi not getting dead by the drill sort of works.  Obviously it hurt angels more than a regular drill because of the impact on Castiel and Metatron. But it wasn't an angel blade.  So, I buy her being damaged and recovered.

 

Her "resurrection" making sense is one thing, but what I want to know is why even bring her back ?

 

Castiel already has the emotional motivation without putting Naomi back into this, he's always cared deeply about heaven. And as I've said before, Dumah could have been the one to break the news to him.

It's not even helping the story at all, because putting a garbage person like Naomi with the few angels remaining actually gives me more reasons to want heaven to burn.

 

So the only answer I'm seeing for my earlier question is : because they can. And they have to stop thinking like this. Getting really sick of the cast & crew bringing their friends back on board and hurting the show's credibility in the process.

 

What happens now, is she going to get a redemption arc too ?

Edited April 21, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[SueB]

5 hours ago, BoxManLocke said:

 

Her "resurrection" making sense is one thing, but what I want to know is why even bring her back ?

 

Castiel already has the emotional motivation without putting Naomi back into this, he's always cared deeply about heaven. And as I've said before, Dumah could have been the one to break the news to him.

It's not even helping the story at all, because putting a garbage person like Naomi with the few angels remaining actually gives me more reasons to want heaven to burn.

 

So the only answer I'm seeing for my earlier question is : because they can. And they have to stop thinking like this. Getting really sick of the cast & crew bringing their friends back on board and hurting the show's credibility in the process.

 

What happens now, is she going to get a redemption arc too ?

I think they leverages Amanda Tappings’ presence to simply add to Cas’ torture.  Dumah is only a bitty step above stint angel #3.  Naomi played Cas’ big bad all of S8.  

With her presence we are reminded that she justified her mind control as penance for all the angels he killed as Godstiel.  Of all the angel characters, she’s always remorselessly provided a listing of his crimes and the angel deaths at his feet.  Dumah doesn’t have the same screen history.  

I think we’ve seen Naomi’s redemption arc.  She  had her moment of mission clarity in the season 8 finale and that’s as far as she’s going to go. She doesn’t regret torturing Cas. But she’s willing to work with him to save Heaven. 

We, the audience, are more sympathetic towards Cas, but she reminds us that Cas is just as harsh on himself as Naomi is to him.   It’s a shortcut to character motivation.  

Misha did an excellent job of looking devastated.  I’m not sure that his reaction would have been as powerful without Naomi.  

[Bobcatkitten]

So weird question - about how old is Rowena supposed to be in Supernatural? 40s? Older?

[Jeddah]

10 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

So weird question - about how old is Rowena supposed to be in Supernatural? 40s? Older?

Waaaaaaay older. Like 400 years old!

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

So weird question - about how old is Rowena supposed to be in Supernatural? 40s? Older?

She is  300 years old. Seriously.

[SueB]

39 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

So weird question - about how old is Rowena supposed to be in Supernatural? 40s? Older?

Based on Crowley's date of birth (1661), I put her someone between 375 and 380.  Depending on how old she was when she had her affair with the wealthy man and got pregnant.

As Ruth Connell is 39, I'd say Rowena stopped aging in her late 30's.  And Sam is 35 in a couple of weeks.  So, she gives new definition to the meaning of "cougar" or she's just a wee bit older.