S11.E21: The Comet Polarization

[CherryAmes]

I'm just glad that the "Penny is so stupid she can't use glue" crap seems to have run its course!

[Sile]

I find it difficult to believe that Howard wouldn't recognize the man he named his child after but, then again, I've been a Gaiman fan for 20 years and I'm not sure I would have recognized him with the beard.  Is that recent?  Then again, just hearing the accent would have caused me to look at the person closer and it probably would have clicked. 

I'd have definitely realized it was him when he started talking about 1602.

[stan4]

Churyumov–Gerasimenko was discovered in 1969 by Klim Ivanovich Churyumov of the Kiev University's Astronomical Observatory,[26] who examined a photograph that had been exposed for comet Comas Solà by Svetlana Ivanovna Gerasimenko on 11 September 1969 at the Alma-Ata Astrophysical Institute, near Alma-Ata (now Almaty), the then-capital city of Kazakh Soviet Socialist Republic, Soviet Union. Churyumov found a cometary object near the edge of the plate, but assumed that this was comet Comas Solà.[27]

After returning to his home institute in Kiev, Churyumov examined all the photographic plates more closely. On 22 October, about a month after the photograph was taken, he discovered that the object could not be Comas Solà, because it was about 1.8 degrees off the expected position. Further scrutiny produced a faint image of Comas Solà at its expected position on the plate, thus proving the other object to be a different body.[27]

 

 

Precedence for sharing the name (not all Penny or Raj).

The lady took a pic of another comet.  He figured out it had an extra as yet undiscovered comet on it.  Shared the name.

[Meushell]

I’m glad Penny got her way and didn’t cave. I was worried they would go with that, particularly because she caves a lot with Sheldon.

As for Sheldon, I understand how he felt, but I was worried he was going to sabotage the store to get his way. I honestly expected the episode to end with an empty store, a smiling Sheldon, and Stuart just accepting it as a part of life.

[Yeah No]

I'm happy that Penny didn't completely cave either but I wish they would have given her credit for knowing more, like at least knowing it looked like a comet.  I felt like the show is still trying to make her look a little stupid and that she found the comet in spite of herself, and not even knowing what it was until Raj saw it for himself.  I could see her saying that they should share credit, but digging her heels in about wanting sole credit seemed a little unfair.  I'm sure Raj would have seen it and discovered it himself once he looked through the telescope.  Plus can she really be given sole credit if someone else wasn't there to tell her she was looking at a comet that no one else had seen before?  That's like being given sole credit for a joke when someone else delivers the punch line.

[stan4]

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I'm happy that Penny didn't completely cave either but I wish they would have given her credit for knowing more, like at least knowing it looked like a comet.  

Be a bit far-fetched considering these things don't generally look all perfect and clean cut IRL like you are watching NOVA or at a planetarium.

 

Even Raj had to go confirm it.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

8 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I'm happy that Penny didn't completely cave either but I wish they would have given her credit for knowing more, like at least knowing it looked like a comet.  

I flatter myself I’m of reasonable intelligence, and I doubt I’d recognize a comet without the confirmation of someone more knowledgeable. I can’t even distinguish Venus from a star without double checking. 

[BlossomCulp]

I liked that when she was looking through the telescope and the guys were saying "maybe it's an eyelash" type of comment they didn't make it seem like this was a "Oh that Penny" moment.  It was a genuine acknowledgement that it is difficult to look through a telescope (or even worse IME a microscope) and focus correctly at first - that you very often are seeing your lash or a reflection of something else or whatever.  Penny deserved some credit for being the first to spot the comet but Raj deserved credit too for following up and realizing what they had in fact seen.  I hope they resolve this (if of course it is ever mentioned again) by having them share the discovery.  

[Bort]

If Raj had said, “Hey, that comet we saw last night was undiscovered, so I submitted the paperwork to credit both of us, because Penny saw it first and I figured out what it was,” I don’t think Penny would be squawking about that. He swooped in, claimed sole credit... dick move.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, kariyaki said:

If Raj had said, “Hey, that comet we saw last night was undiscovered, so I submitted the paperwork to credit both of us, because Penny saw it first and I figured out what it was,” I don’t think Penny would be squawking about that. He swooped in, claimed sole credit... dick move.

Or, since Raj's nether parts don't seem to have many moves: A Raj move.

[BabyVegas]

I don't usually comment on this forum since I watch this show mostly as background noise, but this episode was so infuriating that I had to talk about it somewhere. The sexism and asshole behavior on this show has gotten pretty out of control. Specifically, Sheldon's behavior. It's not funny and it's not cute. Sheldon's assumption that the assistant manager didn't know anything about comic books was likely intended to be a representation of how he never thinks anyone knows as much as he does, but because this show has an incredibly shaky history with treating women with any kind of respect, I thought it came off like he was assuming that a woman couldn't know about comic books. And when he went to quiz her, it was that common moment of "nerd guys" requiring women to prove themselves to the guy's satisfaction. I think they were trying to have Howard lampshade it a little bit when he rolled his eyes at Sheldon, but that still doesn't make it okay and that Howard just didn't comment bothered me. And then there was Sheldon's refusal to sit next to the woman on the couch. Again, I assume they were going for "Sheldon hates strangers" but because the women on this show usually get made the butt of the joke, it just read as sexist. There were so many little moments of sexism throughout this episode that I'm honestly mad at myself for even finishing it.

[Jacks-Son]

52 minutes ago, BabyVegas said:

The sexism and asshole behavior on this show has gotten pretty out of control. Specifically, Sheldon's behavior. It's not funny and it's not cute. Sheldon's assumption that the assistant manager didn't know anything about comic books was likely intended to be a representation of how he never thinks anyone knows as much as he does, but because this show has an incredibly shaky history with treating women with any kind of respect, I thought it came off like he was assuming that a woman couldn't know about comic books. And when he went to quiz her, it was that common moment of "nerd guys" requiring women to prove themselves to the guy's satisfaction.

I agree with your post, especially about the asshole behavior. Sheldon, to me, was the main culprit. He acts like no one can be as smart, or even smarter than him. Now, he's always been like that, but in this episode, he really was acting like a privileged asshole. However, Sheldon wasn't the only one who showed such behavior. Raj, was also being a dick about "The Newly Named Comet". He became very manipulating with both Penny and Leonard (with the latter shrinking away from any confrontation and incapable of backing his wife, wimp). That’s not a good situation for all involved. The sexism, you saw was blatant.

One of MY complaints about this episode was Sheldon's continued behavior to make everything about him. Stuart's comic book store was taking off and yet Sheldon made it all about the loss of his comfort level. He even uses his fiance to scope out pigeons due to his fear of birds. Punk move! Wasn't there an old episode that centered on a bird who perched on his window sill, and it freaked Sheldon out? Yet at the end of the episode, after the bird flew away, Sheldon was bummed. He makes progress in baby steps yet returns to his original starting point. I don't see the purpose of continuing to depict Sheldon as a grown man who refuses to grow up. (Peter Pan Syndrome?) I don't think there's any kid who would say, "I want to grow up to be like Sheldon".

Speaking of manning up, Leonard's continued wringing of his hands like he's some scared little boy, is embarrassing. No wonder Penny has to fight his battles and why his mother continues to berate him. Of course, she's largely to blame for turning Leonard into a non-confrontational squid. The only redeeming value of the writers' depiction of women on this show, is the fact that most of the women and especially the three leads are that they don't take shit from the their guys.

Edited April 22, 2018 by Jacks-Son

[CleoCaesar]

5 hours ago, BabyVegas said:

The sexism and asshole behavior on this show has gotten pretty out of control.

... I thought it came off like he was assuming that a woman couldn't know about comic books.

But Sheldon is the butt of those jokes. He's the one being made fun of. He really does assume that women don't know about comic books when really Denise was perfectly knowledgeable, professional, and friendly. How is that sexist?

 

Quote

I don't see the purpose of continuing to depict Sheldon as a grown man who refuses to grow up. (Peter Pan Syndrome?) I don't think there's any kid who would say, "I want to grow up to be like Sheldon".

The purpose is that it's his established character. He's a socially oblivious asshole. Why should a show intended for adults need to have role models for children as protagonists?

[BabyVegas]

3 minutes ago, CleoCaesar said:

But Sheldon is the butt of those jokes. He's the one being made fun of.

So the joke is that a guy who is a sexist asshole should just get to go on his merry way because his friends don't feel like challenging him ever? I fail to see how that's better. And, given this show's very dicey history with women, I'm not inclined to give them a generous reading of the joke. If this show used moments like that to offer any kind of critique or comeuppance, I'd be willing to buy your argument. But the fact that the show merely depicts Sheldon being an asshole, everyone laughs, and then moves on is where I get the read that it's sexist. 

[AnnaRose]

I'll have to go back and watch some time because I didn't notice Sheldon being sexist.  He even said it didn't have anything to do with the new employee being a woman, and I believe him because that's consistent with his character.  He just hates change and would have been upset and angry no matter who the new employee was.

[theatremouse]

On 4/19/2018 at 5:59 PM, greekmom said:

I am glad that Stuart has finally had some success with the store.  

I hope Denise stays as a love interest for Stuart. 

I hope they don't do that. It would be super inappropriate of Stuart, not that it's uncommon for the main characters to be super inappropriate, but I would not enjoy that storyline.

On 4/21/2018 at 9:43 AM, CherryAmes said:

A very good episode!  I especially got a kick out of the running joke of the gang not realizing that it was Neil Gaiman who was in the comic book store.  I enjoyed that they found a way to have a special guest star without making up an  unlikely scenario where someone would just happen to meet special guest star!  I completely bought that they wouldn't recognize him - why would they?

His face is on the dust jacket of his novels. I do find it odd Mr. Eidetic Memory Cooper did not recognize him during the 1602 conversation. I buy the others not noticing or recognizing him in the first flashback since they didn't even really look at him, but the scene with Sheldon later sacrificed logic for the running gag, to me.

[Yeah No]

16 hours ago, stan4 said:

Be a bit far-fetched considering these things don't generally look all perfect and clean cut IRL like you are watching NOVA or at a planetarium.

I've seen photos of comets as taken from telescopes and if I saw those images through a lens I'd at least say to someone, "Could that be a comet?" as they have a characteristic look.   Or the show could have made it look more obviously like a comet if that helps.  Penny's been hanging around these guys long enough that I'd like the show to give her credit for something seeping in that may be unexpected, like what a comet looks like.  When you're around people long enough stuff just seeps in by osmosis, like how my husband's love of church organs has led me to be able to identify the country of origin of an organ just by its sound, or identify types of organ stops by their sounds.  And I never once attempted to study the subject either, in fact decidedly not so, but he is an organ geek every bit as much as these guys are science geeks and I would have had to be deaf, dumb and blind not to learn something about them along the way.

Penny is smart enough and has grown some on the show, so why does the show continue to want to make her look incapable of such a thing?  That's what I would have preferred for this episode and for Penny's character. 

Does anyone remember Hale Bopp?  I watched that thing hovering in the sky for weeks around 20 years ago.  

Edited April 23, 2018 by Yeah No

[FinnishViewer]

Quote

I'll have to go back and watch some time because I didn't notice Sheldon being sexist.

I don't think Sheldon is sexist as default. He's considered Leonard's mother to be someone he respect. He also respected that one female scientist who came to stay at the boys' apartment that one time. I think Sheldon is the kind of person who shows respect only after the other person has demonstrated that he or she is smart.

[BlossomCulp]

I've gotten the impression that the powers that be on the show have listened to some of the criticism from fans (maybe someone even reads these boards :grin:) and are aware that a lot of people are less than impressed that not one of the 3 main female characters apparently ever read comics, watched Star Trek or were even aware that adults like to play role playing board and computer games!  They've made a nod to the notion that women can enjoy these things too in a few random episodes in the past but still keep going back to the idea that there are "boy" interests and "girl" interests and these interests rarely intersect.  Anyway I took the idea that the assistant manager was a woman who reads comics and that the store now seems to have women customers as a nod to that criticism since they can't really go back and rewrite Penny, Amy or Bernadette.

[OtterMommy]

8 hours ago, FinnishViewer said:

I don't think Sheldon is sexist as default. He's considered Leonard's mother to be someone he respect. He also respected that one female scientist who came to stay at the boys' apartment that one time. I think Sheldon is the kind of person who shows respect only after the other person has demonstrated that he or she is smart.

I agree.  Sheldon has many faults, but sexism isn't one of them.  Now, I do sometimes (er, frequently) feel that the show is sexist.  It's better than it has been--the first seasons and how Penny was handled were just painful--but it still has its moment where the female characters are characterized in a different way than the male characters are (basically every time Bernadette shows up is a start).

In many ways, Sheldon is the most progressive of the male characters when it comes to gender....he's just a complete jerk in so many other ways.

[LoneHaranguer]

13 hours ago, theatremouse said:

I do find it odd Mr. Eidetic Memory Cooper did not recognize him during the 1602 conversation. I buy the others not noticing or recognizing him in the first flashback since they didn't even really look at him, but the scene with Sheldon later sacrificed logic for the running gag, to me.

There's a Sherlock Holmes story in which the character cautions against cramming one's brain with any old junk lest one have trouble coming up with something useful later. Sheldon has done exactly that in his quest to be a know-it-all. Given time, he'll realize who that was, like he eventually remembered the song stuck in his head.

[MissLucas]

I think Sheldon has displayed sexist attitudes more than once (all the flippant remarks about menstruation or how he treated his assistant) - in this episode the case can be made that he was just his usual jerk-self but the evidence is certainly stacked against him.

[stan4]

13 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I've seen photos of comets as taken from telescopes and if I saw those images through a lens I'd at least say to someone, "Could that be a comet?" as they have a characteristic look.   O  

Or maybe the comets you saw pics of were pics they showed people bc they were the most ideal pictures of comets.

 

I'm sure there are thousands more pics that look like schmutz to the untrained eye.

 

I agree with the osmosis thing.

[BlossomCulp]

On 4/22/2018 at 10:03 PM, theatremouse said:

His face is on the dust jacket of his novels.

I don't think i'm the only one who doesn't really look at the pictures of authors.  I just don't care what they look like.  But even so a posed shot taken at some random moment in time doesn't mean you're going to recognize that person when seen "on the street" so to speak.  I completely bought that they wouldn't have recognized him. 

[Bort]

A number of posts were removed for being off topic. If you want to go in depth on the characters’ apparent stereotyping vis a vis the writers/creators of the show, feel free to create a topic if one does not exist. This topic should be discussing this particular episode. 

[roamyn]

JUst saw this last night.  Ran is a dick of the first order.  He didn’t even want to debate sharing.  He just swooped in and took full credit, then tried to guilt Pennyinto letting him have his way.

Sheldon’s not my favorite, but Raj consciously makes people cowtow to him.  He gleefully admits it, while most of the time Sheldon is oblivious.  It’s like Howard said many years ago when Penny said Raj was an ass when he drinks:  He’s an ass when he’s not (drinking), you just don’t know it.

 I wish they’d do a split of Howard & family, where he leaves Engineering behind to become a stand up comic.  Then we could dump the rest- maybe have Stuart show up once in awhile (as long as he’s not sad sack-y).

Edited April 25, 2018 by roamyn

[highway61]

Just saw a repeat of "The Sales Call Sublimation" last night, where Raj and Sheldon discover a medium size asteroid - "That’s the chicken fingers on the menu of space". 

Given how big a jerk Sheldon was about trying to name the asteroid after himself or Amy, I can't (completely) blame Raj for being a jerk. Whether Sheldon and Amy will name all their children Rajesh remains to be seen...

[CherryAmes]

While I don't like the way Raj behaves I do like that they make Raj behave the way he does.  He was an indulged child and obviously is a brilliant man academically.  He's had huge entitlement issues for years the only difference between him and Sheldon is that Raj wants to be loved and Sheldon, until Amy came along, could not have cared less about that kind of thing.  I think it's actually pretty realistic that Raj would be the way that he is and I do like that just because he's cute that doesn't mean he's a great guy.  He's flawed and flawed well beyond his earlier selective mutism.

[shapeshifter]

On April 22, 2018 at 9:03 PM, theatremouse said:

On April 19, 2018 at 7:59 PM, greekmom said:

I am glad that Stuart has finally had some success with the store.  

I hope Denise stays as a love interest for Stuart. 

I hope they don't do that. It would be super inappropriate of Stuart, not that it's uncommon for the main characters to be super inappropriate, but I would not enjoy that storyline

And now I'm picturing Stuart having a dream sequence…
In Stuart's dream, he and Denise verbally and with chaste body language (because that's how I imagine Stuart's dreams—YMMV) express a mutual desire to hook up, marry, and have babies, but acknowledge the inappropriateness of a supervisor-supervisee relationship (cue joke about conjugal visits in jail), so they decide it is now feasible to open a second store, which Denise will run as an equal partner.…
Unfortunately (because this is a Stuart story segment) he awakes to Denise telling him that since the new Superhero Super Comic Store opened across the street (because social media data alerted the chain that this was a hot spot to sell comics), Stuart's sales have dropped off to levels below when he hired Denise, so she's doing him a favor and taking a job across the street where her boyfriend works (who is Jason Mamoa in a cameo appearance).

 

On April 23, 2018 at 12:49 AM, Yeah No said:

Does anyone remember Hale Bopp?  I watched that thing hovering in the sky for weeks around 20 years ago

Yes, in 1996 I was living in a rural mountain desert area of Northern California when comet Hyakutake, which "appeared very bright in the night sky and…temporarily upstaged the much anticipated Comet Hale–Bopp" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Hyakutake) appeared with its tail spanning a huge arc across the sky. I got my three daughters out of bed to see it, and then went out again before dawn to see it once more. It is perhaps the most treasured experience of my life, and this was all without a telescope. 

So I have no trouble believing that with Raj's high powered telescope that Penny would recognize a comet as a comet, but that also, since comets were not something she knew beyond common knowledge, Penny might have doubted her own perception—unlike, say, a sighting of a famous celebutante, especially the Penny of season one of the show.

Edited April 27, 2018 by shapeshifter
Typo

[Trey]

That sounds like a wonderful experience, @shapeshifter!

I hope you are doing well.

[OtterMommy]

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So I have no trouble believing that with Raj's high powered telescope that Penny would recognize a comet as a comet, but that also, since comets were not something she knew beyond common knowledge, Penny might have doubted her own perception—unlike, say, a sighting of a famous celebutante, especially the Penny of season one of the show.

Yes, I can buy Penny seeing it, recognizing it has a comet, but not believing her own perception.  How many times in every episode do the other characters tell her that she's intellectually inferior and lacks any kind of scientific knowledge?  What if she were to say, "I found a comet!" and then everyone else would just laugh at her and tell her she didn't know what she was doing (and then STILL have Raj "discover" it and claim it)?

@shapeshifter that is an awesome comet experience!

[FiveString]

On 4/20/2018 at 9:59 PM, shapeshifter said:

Is there still a resident science advisor for the show?

I think so, but I wish they would ask him about science as a profession rather than just having him vet the equations on the whiteboard. The writers irritated me with the notion that the primary metric for success by a scientist is "making discoveries" and that it would in any way hurt Raj's career to share credit with Penny. Science is incremental and very, very rarely involves big discoveries. And comets are almost all discovered either by amateurs or, as noted above, via professional survey telescopes like Pan-STARRS.

Edited April 26, 2018 by FiveString

[John Potts]

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 8:14 AM, biakbiak said:

But Neil Gaiman did and that would be enough to many and also make some famous nerds go there.

 

On ‎20‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 2:07 PM, SmithW6079 said:

I thought they didn't really look at him, just kind of glanced over their shoulders

The first time (Adamantium v Vibranium v Uru) discussion, they never really looked. The second time (I forget the discussion, but I think Neil Gaiman referred to one of his own comics, which you'd think would clue them in), they were looking right at him but still failed to recognise him. I'm not especially into comics, but I would recognise him in that context, I think.

On ‎21‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:50 AM, Jacks-Son said:

So, all those screaming females (not trying to be sexist, but all the videos show screaming females) when the Beatles were first starting out, should be bummed that they became a world-wide sensation?

If they play at a gig with 20 fans, you have a considerably better chance of actually meeting the band (particularly "intimately", so to speak). When there are thousands, your odds go down a lot.

Raj was a complete jerk. Would there be much cachet in discovering a comet (in our own solar system at least)? It's pretty much random chance. Glad Penny didn't back down over it.

Liked Amy's confronting Denise, particularly as Denise was perfectly nice about it.