S16.E11: Brian Schatz, Andy Cohen, Jason Kander, Maya Wiley, and Jonathan Chait

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Brian Schatz, Jason Kander, Maya Wiley, Jonathan Chait & Andy Cohen 

[Caseysgirl]

I enjoyed "New Rules" tonight, particularly the segment about our revisiting the past and judging it by today's standards.  I do think that we've taken this all a bit too far and I agree that everyone should relax or we aren't going to be able to enjoy anything from our past.

[Drumpf1737]

Quote

I enjoyed "New Rules" tonight, particularly the segment about our revisiting the past and judging it by today's standards.  I do think that we've taken this all a bit too far and I agree that everyone should relax or we aren't going to be able to enjoy anything from our past.

Perspective. When Hank Azaria and the writers at the Simpsons say Apu was harmless 10 years ago, they aren't considering how that character impacted millions of Indian-Americans. Similar to when some people wax nostalgic about the 50s and 60s they forget what a tumultuous time it was for POC. Couldn't hurt to look at things from another's perspective.

[Victor the Crab]

The New Rules sermon would have been better said from someone who was more willing to accept change from society instead of one who has made a history of whining about the way people's attitudes evolved, like Bill has done on more than one occasion.

[iMonrey]

I like Jason Kander, but he is one of those unrealistically optimistic liberals who says "we just need to get out there and talk to the people about our policies and they will vote for us." Clearly, that's not the case, and nobody should know that better than him - he lost a Senate race in 2016 despite the number of people he went out and talked to. 

I don't know what it is about Andy Cohen but I simply cannot stand the sight of him. Something about his pointy little weasel face and beady little rats eyes totally puts me off my lunch.

I did enjoy the interview with Brian Schatz though - one of the better interviews we've seen in a long while on this show. Maya Wiley was great too.

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, Victor the Crab said:

The New Rules sermon would have been better said from someone who was more willing to accept change from society instead of one who has made a history of whining about the way people's attitudes evolved, like Bill has done on more than one occasion.

This fell a little flat because Bill is devoid of any social context. I can get Molly being like, "I just watched some of my 80s movies, and yeesh" because it's true. I don't think there's anything wrong with her saying that because she lived it. I mean, we're all guilty, but you realize that there's things you don't do and say anymore and you grow up. You make the credible point that it's taken us a long time, but we're realizing that some things weren't right, and we're trying to do better. 

 

Clothes and fashion don't really count. Those are funny jokes, but worrying about cruelty to animals isn't the same as making fun of people by calling them gay slurs. Which basically Bill was doing to Andy. That was a terrible mid show interview.

Bill is also completely full of it and borderline delusional in his little rant about how people need to be so liked on twitter. Dude, you yell at your audience when one of your jokes falls flat. Give me a break. 

Yeah, don't get caught up in all the social media drama, sure. But this whole canard about how social media is tearing up society needs to stop. I'm glad the woman brought up a nuanced counter argument and her own experiences. 

Here's an idea - you can get off social media if you don't like it. I'm here - I like it. I met people professionally due to twitter because I use the tool responsibly. I'm on FB all the time. I get to see all my friends who live on the east coast, and last year, when I "checked in" I didn't know an old friend actually lived nearby. They saw it and we were able to meet up for a night out. 

Bill's constant complaining about it is disingenuous. He was tweeting out jokes from the monologue last night to promote the show. Which is what you should be doing. So, shut up about it Bill. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by ganesh

[ganesh]

11 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Perspective. When Hank Azaria and the writers at the Simpsons say Apu was harmless 10 years ago, they aren't considering how that character impacted millions of Indian-Americans. Similar to when some people wax nostalgic about the 50s and 60s they forget what a tumultuous time it was for POC. Couldn't hurt to look at things from another's perspective.

The final bit about the clothes was funny, but irrelevant to the initial point from Molly. She wasn't talking about what people were wearing in the movie. It also showed Bill missed the point completely when Andy was explaining about the "Q" in LGBTQ. 

I don't know if it's a good position for a straight, single old white dude to be taking. It's kind of akin to the "oh he's just joking, get over it" deal that bullies do. 

I do agree with the guy saying he wishes there's another term for PC because it implies something very specific. On the other hand, sure I think there should be room for debate, but when you're talking about stuff like climate change, no. Shutting that noise down is perfectly acceptable. And there's no room for debate when people are screaming about how Clinton runs slavery from a pizza parlor. 

This is the inherent problem with democrats that we talk about on here all the time. Why is it incumbent on them to be accommodating of "debate"? That's how they're losing the narrative basically all the time. What they need to do is to start saying "knock it off" and stand up for a change. 

[Maherjunkie]

What was so controversial about The Breakfast Club?  I have racked my brain trying to think of something.

[navelgazer]

12 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

What was so controversial about The Breakfast Club?  I have racked my brain trying to think of something.

Bill just used that movie poster as an example while he made fun of Molly Ringwald writing an article for The New Yorker about the #MeToo movement and how things accepted then aren't anymore. 

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/personal-history/what-about-the-breakfast-club-molly-ringwald-metoo-john-hughes-pretty-in-pink

I couldn't make myself slog through it after she says Judd's character sexually harassed Claire throughout the whole movie.  I'm a girl in Molly's age group and when I re-watched TBC recently I still liked it. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by navelgazer

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

What was so controversial about The Breakfast Club?  I have racked my brain trying to think of something.

From the article, scenes like Bender looking up her skirt, and the fact that Bender basically spends the entire movie negging Claire and that makes her like him. But there's also a lot of stuff about Hughes' other work with National Lampoon. Also the hugely racist Long Duck Dong character in 16 candles, which also includes a guy handing his girlfriend over to a guy as payment for another girl's panties.

That said, I happened to just read a review of Carousel with comments also complaining about how #MeToo is stupidly trying to say that Carousel approves of the abusive relationship. The first time I saw that show as a kid I thought it was horrifying--it totally normalizes and sympathizes with the toxic masculinity and abusive hero--and yet people were complaining about people suggesting that maybe it actually is hard to just enjoy a story like that when you know better. It's actually not always a terrible thing to admit when things no longer play the same way. 

[CaliCheeseSucks]

I laughed and laughed and laughed when Kander (in Overtime) grabbed at straws to claim he's a Millennial. He was born in 1981, which is firmly Gen X camp. Strictly speaking, the cohorts tend to be defined as eighteen years. Boomers: 46-64, X: 65-83, Millennials: 84-2002. It's not unheard of for social historians to blur the start and end points a little when they look back at certain trends and groupthink that emerged with the benefit of hindsight; but Kander was really pulling that claim firmly out of his behind.

Edited April 14, 2018 by CaliCheeseSucks
erratum

[UYI]

1 hour ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

I laughed and laughed and laughed when Kander (in Overtime) grabbed at straws to claim he's a Millennial. He was born in 1981, which is firmly Gen X camp. Strictly speaking, the cohorts tend to be defined as eighteen years. Boomers: 46-64, X: 65-83, Millennials: 84-2002. It's not unheard of for social historians to blur the start and end points a little when they look back at certain trends and groupthink that emerged with the benefit of hindsight; but Kander was really pulling that claim firmly out of his behind.

 

For what it's worth, I HAVE heard the statistic claiming that Gen Y/Millenials start period is 1981 as well, many years ago, actually. (I was born in 1989, so that's my generation regardless.)

Also: I'm Queen Frostine's Original Face at Dlisted. I know you who are! :)

2 hours ago, navelgazer said:

Bill just used that movie poster as an example while he made fun of Molly Ringwald writing an article for The New Yorker about the #MeToo movement and how things accepted then aren't anymore. 

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/personal-history/what-about-the-breakfast-club-molly-ringwald-metoo-john-hughes-pretty-in-pink

I couldn't make myself slog through it after she says Judd's character sexually harassed Claire throughout the whole movie.  I'm a girl in Molly's age group and when I re-watched TBC recently I still liked it. 

 

I still like the movie, too, but I can see where Molly was coming from, given the skirt scene in particular, which had to be done by an adult because Molly was still a literal teenager at the time (she and Anthony Michael Hall were the only teenagers on that movie; the rest of the cast played college graduates in St. Elmo's Fire the exact same year), and how weird she felt watching that next to her daughter.

I recommend reading the rest of the article, BTW. It's worth a read, especially the part where she talks to Haviland Morris (Caroline) about the scene in Sixteen Candles where her character and Anthony Michael Hall's character (Farmer Ted the Geek) are unsure if they'd had sex or not. 

And I kind of loved Bill's old jacket, despite myself. 

Edited April 14, 2018 by UYI

[CaliCheeseSucks]

1 minute ago, UYI said:

For what it's worth, I HAVE heard the statistic claiming that Gen Y/Millenials start period is 1981 as well, many years ago, actually. (I was born in 1989, so that's my generation regardless.)

Also: I'm Queen Frostine's Original Face at Dlisted. I know you who are! :)

Hey you!

I know people both in X and Echo trying to glom on to the other cohort, but Kander's insistence on claiming millennialism by "five months" was funny. At the very least, you could say you straddle the two. By no means is that a firm claim. 

(There's a guy I know who was born in the mid-1950s. Who refuses to admit that he's a Baby Boomer. Because "I'm not the product of a returned GI." *headdeskheaddesk* THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS!!!!!!!!)

See you at DL :)

[Robert Lynch]

26 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Hey you!

I know people both in X and Echo trying to glom on to the other cohort, but Kander's insistence on claiming millennialism by "five months" was funny. At the very least, you could say you straddle the two. By no means is that a firm claim. 

(There's a guy I know who was born in the mid-1950s. Who refuses to admit that he's a Baby Boomer. Because "I'm not the product of a returned GI." *headdeskheaddesk* THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS!!!!!!!!)

See you at DL :)

So I was born in 1983, does that make me more of a late 80s-90s kid? Am I a Generation X baby?

Edited April 14, 2018 by Robert Lynch

[Tanichka]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I don't know what it is about Andy Cohen but I simply cannot stand the sight of him. Something about his pointy little weasel face and beady little rats eyes totally puts me off my lunch.

Thank you!  I can't watch him at all.  How does this guy get on TV?

[Maherjunkie]

i liked the article but if we made movies where people always behaved correctly there would be no tension or drama.   Teenage boys frequently are sexist, and in real life- we expect them to outgrow it.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

i liked the article but if we made movies where people always behaved correctly there would be no tension or drama.   Teenage boys frequently are sexist, and in real life- we expect them to outgrow it.

But tbf, the Breakfast Club isn't Mad Men where it's writing about sexism. Bender targets Claire from the start of the movie with special hostility because she's a rich, popular girl and in the end he's rewarded for it with a kiss and a diamond earring as if his constant abuse was good for her. So it's not that they can't be sexist, but how that comes across in context.

[Maherjunkie]

Yes, he was a douche. But I don't how else it would have ended since happy endings are derigeur in most any film.

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, Maherjunkie said:

Yes, he was a douche. But I don't how else it would have ended since happy endings are derigeur in most any film.

I wouldn't call that a happy ending. It's not like it was a rom com where Claire and Bender had to get together. When I saw it as a kid in the theaters I actually thought it was very fake. 

Anyway, the point is just that Molly Ringwald was re-watching the movies with her daughter and questioning all the things that at the time were just derigeur in films of the time. It doesn't mean the movies themselves have to get thrown out or anything, but it's not ruining them to not be able to watch them the same way. 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Bill’s breathing bothered me...was he sick or too much smoking?!  Every time he laughed or took a deep breath you could hear his lungs rattle!

[iMonrey]

More pie in the sky optimism from Jonathan Chait on Overtime, claiming Obama's legacy will survive and that Obamacare hasn't been repealed. Maybe he hasn't heard, but part of the new tax bill overturns the health insurance mandate that is at the core of the ACA. Without it, the whole thing falls apart because that's what funds it. That's the trouble with Democrats today, they've all got their heads in the sand.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Hearing Schatz speak reminded me of his predecessor the late Senator Inouye. In that I remember meeting the latter years ago as part of my job. It was such an honor to speak with him. I miss him.

Ahem.

I'm not sure how I feel about the episode as a whole. And I know I was confused and felt like an idiot, when Bill kept saying that Democrats had more of a chance of taking back the House, than the Senate. I thought it was the other way around. I mean, isn't there like a one or two senator majority of Republicans over Democrats? And isn't there a wider gap in the House?

I wanted to hear more from Maya, to be honest.

Why was Andy Cohen even on? Just to answer Bill's stupid and ignorant question about what the 'Q' in LGBTQ means? He didn't have a book or show he was pimping, and he didn't contribute anything.

I did like how Schatz didn't let Bill's interruptions flummox him-but answered his questions, in the order Bill asked and interrupted. It sounded like he wanted to do a "GOTCHA!" question, and yet he's not as hard on the "BRAVE and COURAGEOUS" batshits that come on his show.

Edited April 16, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[ganesh]

On 4/15/2018 at 10:46 AM, iMonrey said:

Maybe he hasn't heard, but part of the new tax bill overturns the health insurance mandate that is at the core of the ACA.

Not to mention that the head of the EPA is literally destroying the environment by erasing any Obama regulations.

 

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I know I was confused and felt like an idiot, when Bill kept saying that Democrats had more of a chance of taking back the House, than the Senate.

No this is accurate. Even though it's more seats, the House is always more volatile and seats are easier to flip because the districts for the House are much smaller than the Senate, so Senate seats can be safer. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, ganesh said:

No this is accurate. Even though it's more seats, the House is always more volatile and seats are easier to flip because the districts for the House are much smaller than the Senate, so Senate seats can be safer. 

Thanks. I just figured with a lot of Republicans resigning/not running (per the discussion on this episode), that that might possibly open the seats for Democrats to win. And that due to gerrymandering, it was more difficult to flip the House seats.

[Tachi Rocinante]

A fair number of major researchers/demographers end the Millennials at 1996, which makes sense to me because when I think of them, I don't think of high-school kids.  They're something else entirely.

[navelgazer]

The problem with flipping the Senate for Democrats in 2018 is that of the 34 races, Democrats are defending 26 and the Republicans only 8.  And 5 of those 26 are in states Trump won by more than 18%.  (Credit Nate Silver and fivethirtyeight.com for the numbers.)  Even as big as the blue tsunami is supposed to be, that's a rough haul. 

[sd dude]

The part that was glaring for me and left me annoyed was when Bill credited "someone" with putting together the clip of all the Sinclair anchors reading the same copy, but didn't or couldn't take the effort to mention it was John Oliver.  Is there some significant rivalry there?  Does Maher have some resentment toward Oliver?  If so, could it be because LWT, as compared to RT, is actually. . .uhm. . .funny, entertaining, and informative?  Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, but Bill names other hosts and personalities all the time, so why not credit Oliver for what he admitted was very clever and effective investigative journalism?  I mean, they're both on HBO, FFS!

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, sd dude said:

The part that was glaring for me and left me annoyed was when Bill credited "someone" with putting together the clip of all the Sinclair anchors reading the same copy, but didn't or couldn't take the effort to mention it was John Oliver.  Is there some significant rivalry there?  Does Maher have some resentment toward Oliver?  If so, could it be because LWT, as compared to RT, is actually. . .uhm. . .funny, entertaining, and informative?  Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill, but Bill names other hosts and personalities all the time, so why not credit Oliver for what he admitted was very clever and effective investigative journalism?  I mean, they're both on HBO, FFS!

John Oliver didn't make it.

[attica]

The Sinclair video was made by Deadspin. Also uncredited by Bill.

[sd dude]

I type corrected.  I may have forgotten, but did Oliver credit Deadspin?  Somehow I was left with the impression that his staff put it together.

[sum]

3 hours ago, sd dude said:

I type corrected.  I may have forgotten, but did Oliver credit Deadspin?  Somehow I was left with the impression that his staff put it together.

So was I, then later found out it was done by Deadspin. I thought it was a bit odd that he didn't make it clear on his show.

[GHScorpiosRule]

What I found irritating was that Bill made it seem HE was the first one to learn this, and that HE'S the first to let us know, when in fact, John Oliver has been reporting on this for nearly a year. ??????

[Gothish520]

On 4/14/2018 at 2:37 PM, navelgazer said:

Bill just used that movie poster as an example while he made fun of Molly Ringwald writing an article for The New Yorker about the #MeToo movement and how things accepted then aren't anymore. 

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/personal-history/what-about-the-breakfast-club-molly-ringwald-metoo-john-hughes-pretty-in-pink

I couldn't make myself slog through it after she says Judd's character sexually harassed Claire throughout the whole movie.  I'm a girl in Molly's age group and when I re-watched TBC recently I still liked it. 

Just finished it and it was very interesting. She makes a lot of great points, and I feel she is fair in her assessment of the importance of John Hughes films while pointing out the ways they are problematic. 

[ganesh]

In light of the discussion about Hef on last Friday, coupled with this, it's seems clear that Bill fails to recognize this kind of nuance. 

[Gothish520]

On 4/14/2018 at 6:32 PM, Maherjunkie said:

i liked the article but if we made movies where people always behaved correctly there would be no tension or drama.   Teenage boys frequently are sexist, and in real life- we expect them to outgrow it.

Right, but the biggest problem with these movies is that not only are the teenage boys not called out/punished for their behavior, but that they are usually rewarded.