S06.E05: The Great Patriotic War

[Erin9]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Love the parsing of the phrase - especially Elizabeth's use of it. I always laugh when she says it because, to me, it is wishful thinking of the grandest sort. I think you're right about Paige's use, and I think it has an additional beat of "shut up now, jeez."

I think Paige is definitely trying to end the lecture when she says she gets it. She’s tired of getting yelled at by her MOM and wants the conversation about her WORK to end. It’s one of the many pitfalls of trying to train your kid. But Paige isn’t really getting anything. 

[Erin9]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I feel like part of it might also just be that Elizabeth defines herself as what loyalty looks like and it often seems like the showrunners talk about her that way too so people just think that way too. So it's almost conditioned: if you're against Elizabeth you must be against the USSR. And if Philip's going rogue it's because he's evolving into an American, even though this season is literally Soviet vs. Soviet and needs everyone involved to be invested in the USSR to do what they're doing. 

Really, there's even the added wrinkle that this whole plan of Elizabeth's was about Mexico City, as she said to Claudia. It's not coming from the top. Elizabeth herself was actually cutting off the information they were getting from Breland (head of the Soviet Division!) for this coup. So objectively she and Elizabeth are both sabotaging the KGB's plans for their own reasons. Arkady would have just wanted to keep Philip in place. It's like when she brought the artist to the party--her Mexico City job and her regular summit job are in conflict. She keeps risking the official job for the other one.

Though maybe the way it's written is partly to blame for that because I still feel like the show isn't given the Oleg/Philip part the weight it deserves somehow. I don't know what I feel the problem is, but it still feels to me like they're doing Elizabeth the superhero with Oleg and Philip is a side plot. Maybe that's just something coming from me, though. Or that it's just inherent in what they can do--that is, they've got plenty of excuses to have Claudia and Elizabeth talk about Russia while Philip and Oleg can't even really talk to each other. (Though it seems like if they wanted to they could arrange that in some way.)

Then there's the added weight of Paige, who's supposed to be this next generation spy just starting out, but again that's all about Elizabeth and Claudia's pov. They don't even seem to be doing things to emphasize how this is another way that Paige is clueless or like the ultimate child of immigrants who identifies herself as belonging to a country with no connection to the actual country. It's just another weird thing that Paige is a traitor to her own country whose politics she's at least familiar with while being completely unaware of the important changes going on in the country she claims to be loyal to now. She's just hitching herself to the memories of Claudia and Elizabeth. 

That also adds to the idea that the spy plot is all centered on Elizabeth (with Claudia and Paige both being part of that) with all her crazy missions and murders. Meanwhile the real spy plot is more like a spy plot should be--it's quiet and not drawing attention to itself so it gets missed even though it's got the most at stake and the most danger.

Maybe it is because Elizabeth is so identified as the loyal one that Philip is seen as more of the traitor to the USSR, even though he’s not really in this case so far. He’s arguabley betrayed HER, but that’s different. I would say- he’s following his own conscience, which is different from hers. And after years of doing things mostly her way, it’s great Philip has finally found an alternative that he believes really can help the homeland. 

I’d much rather see Oleg and Philip talk- or any excuse to hear what Philip thinks over Paige/Elizabeth/Claudia. I get the point, I think anyway, of what they’re doing with her. But the writers can find a way for Philip and Oleg to talk again if they really want them to. But I think that’s why it can feel like a side plot:  Less time is given to them. 

I would agree: the real spy plot is Oleg and Philip. And I want to see more of it! Besides we’ll get to see more Oleg. 

[Pink-n-Green]

52 minutes ago, jjj said:

As in:  "rat kabob, or rat tartare?"  Because it makes a difference?!
 

I won't lie; even though I know these pictures aren't rat meat (are they?????)  I still threw up a little in my mouth.

[Dev F]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I have a feeling it wasn't. I do think they had a specific yearly plan that went out the window. (Not based on anything I read, my opinion only)

 

I think that they probably always planned to get all the way through the 1980s and end the series with the fall of Communism, but that the demands of their individuals storylines ended up forcing them into much more compressed timelines. The Paige storyline, in particular, set in motion a "You have to start preparing your daughter to follow in your footsteps ASAP" ticking clock that couldn't easily extend over months and years, and before that was even resolved it set up a second, even more urgently ticking clock when Paige confessed the family's secret to Pastor Tim. It's telling, I think, that the series' first major time jump came as soon as they were able to get both of those issues into a holding pattern -- even though it meant skipping over promising historical material like Russia's downing of Korean Air Lines flight 007 (in a season where two of the major characters were Korean).

And then they hobbled the timeline again with the "Harvesting the Lassa virus from William's corpse" plot point at the beginning of season 5, which meant they had to set that season right on the heels of season 4. Despite the thematic appropriateness of that event, I think they would've been better off finding some other way to put across the idea of our characters being haunted by the buried elements of their past, especially since the Centre acquiring the virus a) undoes the climax of season 4, b) reneges on the original notion of how disastrous such an event would be, and c) doesn't end up having much long-term significance, either plot-wise or thematically.

All that being said, to me it's also clear that season 5 was very carefully constructed to lead in to a time jump before the final season. So I don't agree that the writers boxed themselves in so badly that important developments got lost during the time jump. As I mentioned before, I think we're supposed to see everything that's happening this season as the inevitable result of where the characters ended up at the end of the season 5 finale.

Edited May 3, 2018 by Dev F

[Bannon]

42 minutes ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I won't lie; even though I know these pictures aren't rat meat (are they?????)  I still threw up a little in my mouth.

Eh, I've eaten tree rats, otherwise known as squirrels, which are tolerable. Cute rats, which we call rabbits, are a real delicacy, when prepared correctly. Liz's rat story would have no effect on me. Having sex with people you can't stand, on the other hand, well, let's just say I found Claudia's tale of woe more bone chilling.From personal remembrance, sad to say....

[MisterBluxom]

2 hours ago, Pink-n-Green said:

I won't lie; even though I know these pictures aren't rat meat (are they?????)  I still threw up a little in my mouth.

I once knew someone who had lived a very long life and had many life experiences. They impressed me as being very wise.

They once told me that at one time during the war, they were on the verge of starvation and when that happened, they ate all kinds of things they could never imagine eating before they were starving. So I know that if I was ever starving I would be willing to eat rat or most anything else - including all kinds of insects.

My problem with eating rats is that I always imagined you would get so little protein from a rat that you would have to exert almost more energy to clean it and cook it then you would get from eating it.

Edited May 3, 2018 by MissBluxom

[Pink-n-Green]

58 minutes ago, MissBluxom said:

My problem with eating rats is that I always imagined you would get so little protein from a rat that you would have to exert almost more energy to clean it and cook it then you would get from eating it.

I really agree with you on this point.  I live in Maryland, home of the delicious blue crab.  But I think picking them is more trouble than its worth and I'd rather just buy a jar of the meat!

[TimWil]

On 5/1/2018 at 11:34 PM, sistermagpie said:

 

They didn't go to East Germany. They went to West Germany and her mother came to them.

Well, Kreuzberg was actually a pro-democracy enclave surrounded by Soviet-influenced East Germany so I wasn’t really all that far off! It wasn’t like they met in Frankfurt or Heidelberg-it would have to have been somewhere the Soviets could bring the mother and whisk her back to Mother Russia.

[Joe Hellandback]

1. God, no matter how many times you see Liz break into people's buildings and murder them it never stops being shocking, the sheer viciousness of it. Talk about a lack of reaction from Stan though?

2. For the record the USSR did lose 20 million people in the 'Great Patriotic War'. Having actively supported the Nazis until halfway through (the German/Italian planes which bombed Britain in the Blitz were fuelled by Russian oil), hugely reliant on massive aid from Britain and America (which had we been able to divert to the Pacific would have meant never losing Malaya, The Philippines etc), would certainly have lost Stalingrad, Leningrad, Moscow had the Germans not also needed to fight the Allies in the West and only declared war on Japan AFTER the first A-bomb. Not to downplay their suffering and sacrifice but let's have some perspective here.

3. Interesting scene where they teach Paige how to drink but stay sober, of course a vital skill for real spies.

4. I liked the bar scene, you cheered for Paige smacking that jerk

5. So, Phillip finally crosses the line, I was right that she seemed to be giving him the shove but he warns her off, even going so far as to warn her specifically to not go to a Communist country. Because she reminds him off Paige and he sees what is happening to her?  

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

5. So, Phillip finally crosses the line, I was right that she seemed to be giving him the shove but he warns her off, even going so far as to warn her specifically to not go to a Communist country. Because she reminds him off Paige and he sees what is happening to her?  

I don't think she needed to remind him of Paige. She reminded him of Ilya, which made him stop listening to Elizabeth's breezy assurances that the kid would be fine. She doesn't care whether Kimmy's fine or not.

[grommit2]

OK...time for a few random observations:
1) Phillip is one spiffy line dancer.  But where does one find Texas 2-step line dancing outside Washington, DC?
2) Elizabeth really needs a break.  Perhaps a few weeks in sunny Moscow would warm her up. 
3) Good old Stan is being set up.  His new GF is trying to sweet-talk her way into the FBI so she can steal secrets, etc.
4) Paige?  Well, she lost that deer-in-the-headlights stare.  But, geez, she's going to mess things up and cause the demise of both her parents. 
5) Henry...oh boy, when he finds out his parents are Russian spies, he's going to flip. But, of all of them, he would do well in Russia because he can play hockey.  OK...I know that's not a culturally sensitive comment, but, so, sue me!
6) Costa Ronin plays Oleg , the Russian spy, and also plays Yevgeny the Russian spy on Homeland...busy guy!  But I wonder if he gets confused about which show he's filming.
7) I wonder how Martha is doing in sunny Russia. 

[John Potts]

Did like Claudia & Elizabeth (truthfully) pointing out the disparity between American & Soviet casualties in WWII. Bet they didn't mention the Nazi-Soviet Pact of 1939, though. Or how Stalin's conviction that Hitler wouldn't attack (indeed, punishing those who said they would) in 1941 meant that the Nazis cut a swathe through Soviet territory when they did attack.

I'm assuming that Erica sees teaching Elizabeth to draw is her form of pain therapy. Since I'm betting on (at least) one of Philip & Elizabeth to die in the Finale, I'm wondering if Elizabeth will have an artistic revelation by then.

"Cooking with Granny" has now expanded to "Drinking with Granny". Must be every teenagers dream to have their mother literally ply them with alcohol. Though I was waiting for the reveal that Claudia & Liz were both faking drunkenness to show Paige how it's a useful skill to have.

On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 6:43 AM, Erin9 said:

I don’t think Paige gets much of anything. I liked her snapping at Elizabeth. It was realistic that her lectures would wear thin. But I don’t think she truly gets how stupid she was drawing attention to herself like that. 

It seemed a believably teenage response - the idea that at 19(?), she knows it all and doesn't want to listen to mommy any more (I'm sure I was just like that at her age). Thing is, for me it wouldn't involve potentially getting me and both my parents arrested and/or executed (not that I'm admitting to, anyway)!

On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 12:20 PM, Ina123 said:

The big irony would be that Renee gets a job at the FBI and sees the sketches of Phillip and Elizabeth (in disguise) on a bulletin board or on some wall and tells Stan, "Hey, that looks like P and E."

I'd love that! It's often the stupidest little things that give people away IRL.

On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 2:56 PM, benteen said:

My pet peeve is when someone snoops around in someone's home and doesn't wear gloves.

But they know they're not in Vegas, Miami or New York where CSI might catch them, and Leroy Jethro Gibbs (who would be based in Washington) is too busy making beer commercials!

On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 3:29 PM, benteen said:

Should Elizabeth have used a gun with a silencer to kill Gennadi?  Without question...it's easier and quicker.  It won't leave a mess on her.

Easier yes, but not necessarily quicker. And even a silenced pistol is quite loud. Though you're 100% right about the amount of mess.

On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 4:53 PM, SusanSunflower said:

As others have said, avoidance and deescalation are first principle of self-defense in real life, unlike when shadow boxing and demonstrating awesome martial-arts-likes moves in the garage

I've heard it described as "The Penguin Principle": How do penguins avoid being eaten by polar bears?

Spoiler

Being 12000 miles away!

 

On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 5:20 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

There certainly was an element of a good arc here. And the writers gave themselves a way of executing it with the three year time gap. However, the Paige that we see after three years of training/indoctrination is probably no different than she was after three weeks of training.

You do have to wonder exactly what they've been teaching her for the last 3 years. But maybe she should be getting in touch with random Interns - not on the off chance that they might give her access to Top Secret info, but because if the aim is to get her in position in the CIA, then she should be making connections with potentially useful contacts (more the Congressman than the Intern).

On ‎26‎/‎04‎/‎2018 at 5:37 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

"Come at me. Come at me and I'll be fine." I laughed out loud when he got Paige in that chokehold and she was ineffectually trying to hit him

My favourite was when she said, "I don't want to hurt you" and Philip just went, "You won't"! 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, John Potts said:

Did like Claudia & Elizabeth (truthfully) pointing out the disparity between American & Soviet casualties in WWII. Bet they didn't mention the Nazi-Soviet Pact of 1939, though. Or how Stalin's conviction that Hitler wouldn't attack (indeed, punishing those who said they would) in 1941 meant that the Nazis cut a swathe through Soviet territory when they did attack.

I've heard it described as "The Penguin Principle": How do penguins avoid being eaten by polar bears?

  Reveal hidden contents

Being 12000 miles away!

 

My favourite was when she said, "I don't want to hurt you" and Philip just went, "You won't"! 

I doubt our recruits to the acronym agencies get much of an introduction to the shadier parts of our history, so I can't fault them on that. We all tell our own stories from our own perspective - to support our choices and beliefs, and leave out those bits that don't.

Loved the Penguin Principle - made me laugh.

Yes, Philip's line there, and his delivery, was perfect.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I doubt our recruits to the acronym agencies get much of an introduction to the shadier parts of our history, so I can't fault them on that. We all tell our own stories from our own perspective - to support our choices and beliefs, and leave out those bits that don't.

True, it's not Elizabeth and Claudia at fault there--they're supposed to be manipulating her. It's Paige's choice to believe everything they say when she's got plenty of accurate, varied information at her fingertips.

[hellmouse]

6 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

True, it's not Elizabeth and Claudia at fault there--they're supposed to be manipulating her. It's Paige's choice to believe everything they say when she's got plenty of accurate, varied information at her fingertips.

I thought you put it really well in another post when you described Paige as "eager to be recruited". She wants to buy what they are selling. But she could be swayed by some other more powerful sales pitch for something else, which IDK if Elizabeth and Claudia realize. 

[Eulipian 5k]

On 4/26/2018 at 1:52 AM, Umbelina said:

She would go willingly with Philip, and no, I don't think they have a hoards of spies that Kimmie would trust and not make a fuss about, but they certainly would have regular KGB kidnap squads, like Gaad's.

Yes, it was stupid, but in that stupidity, Philip would have been the best choice.

Edited April 26 by Umbelina.

But the friends she was with would say  “she went with some guy she knew from home” which would bring Aderholt’s team into the case. They should use Philip ‘s  info, not Philip.

[Eulipian 5k]

On 4/26/2018 at 10:02 AM, jjj said:

And there was something very primitive about the way she killed Gannady and Sofia -- straddling both of them like an animal devouring its prey.  Very different from shooting someone and walking away.  Or dropping a car on them. 

When the Russians kill a turncoat they love to leave obvious and ghastly corpses. Even today, IRL.

I recognize it as common for a TV show after several seasons to give ALL the action to the main characters. They won.t introduce new characters to kidnap Kimmie or to kill Ganna-fia . That looks like the execs made those script decisions not the writers. On most cop shows by now every murderer/serial killer goes after the cops family, or is their brother.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Eulipian 5k said:

But the friends she was with would say  “she went with some guy she knew from home” which would bring Aderholt’s team into the case. They should use Philip ‘s  info, not Philip.

But Elizabeth didn't think that was a problem. The issue was in getting her to willingly go to Bulgaria. Doesn't matter if she was with some guy she'd met at home. Once she's there she's arrested because of drugs she's allegedly got and Philip's a ghost.

[qtpye]

On 5/5/2018 at 12:00 PM, hellmouse said:

I thought you put it really well in another post when you described Paige as "eager to be recruited". She wants to buy what they are selling. But she could be swayed by some other more powerful sales pitch for something else, which IDK if Elizabeth and Claudia realize. 

But the showrunners have told us she has a Russian Soul! (Rolls Eyes)

[cameron]

On 4/26/2018 at 12:56 AM, Bannon said:

It's worse than that. Liz has been on a slaughter spree with obvious national security implications for weeks now, and yet the FBI gets conveniently stupid enough to leave two defectors unguarded. 

If the writers don't care, why should the audience? I think I'm putting this on the hate-watch list, along with Homeland. The acting on The Americans is better, however.

Found it interesting in how Elizabeth knew what window to crawl through.  Could have been the wrong apartment.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, cameron said:

Found it interesting in how Elizabeth knew what window to crawl through.  Could have been the wrong apartment.

Yeah, plus, if I were in their situation or protecting them, I'd have made certain ALL windows were locked tight, maybe with some bells or form of alert system on them.  But, I watch too much tv. lol 

[sistermagpie]

29 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yeah, plus, if I were in their situation or protecting them, I'd have made certain ALL windows were locked tight, maybe with some bells or form of alert system on them.  But, I watch too much tv. lol 

Clearly the FBI should watch more TV.

[SunnyBeBe]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Clearly the FBI should watch more TV.

You're right about that.  If you watch a lot of true crime, you'll see that a lot of real life intruders enter a house through an unlocked window.  It's quite common.  I think that some people believe that because a window is located high off the ground, it's not an easy access point for a criminal, but, that is very wrong.  Criminals hardly see that as a deterrent at all.  They can jump, climb, get boosted, scale balconies, etc.  

[Clanstarling]

14 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

22 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Clearly the FBI should watch more TV.

You're right about that.  If you watch a lot of true crime, you'll see that a lot of real life intruders enter a house through an unlocked window.  It's quite common.  I think that some people believe that because a window is located high off the ground, it's not an easy access point for a criminal, but, that is very wrong.  Criminals hardly see that as a deterrent at all.  They can jump, climb, get boosted, scale balconies, etc.  

But they should ignore the shows where people hiding out, or are targets, and yet keep their drapes open at night with lights blazing. (my pet peeve)

[jas]

On ‎4‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 6:33 PM, kay1864 said:

Okay, E was heading back out the window (just re-watched it).  I wonder if she figured she'd come back later to take care of Gennadi?  If she had left, I wonder how that choice would be seen by Claudia--a missed opportunity?

And weird reaction by Gennadi, as if he sensed someone was in the kitchen. After he spotted E, I guess she figured now or never. 

I am new to the series, just having started to watch it seriously (from the beginning) two weeks ago. the scene of the murder of Gennadi and his wife disturbed me more than any of their previous murders.

I agree that the setup was ridiculous: Elizabeth knowing the right window, the back of the building unguarded, the window unlocked (opening to a fire escape, no less)?

All that aside, and with the proviso that I've only watched it once, I believe Elizabeth came in (knife drawn) intending to kill him. When she heard his wife, she backed off and was trying to get out. But when she was behind the door, I didn't think that he had detected her. I think she saw an irresistible opportunity, and motivated by her dedication to the cause, her training, personal anger, bloodlust, or whatever, leapt at it. Then of course she had to kill the wife, even more horribly. 

Then to top it off, the shot of the kid's show playing on the TV, telling us the even more terrible truth even before panning to the child. Not actually showing the kid discovering his parents, but leading to the inescapable conclusion that it would happen. Masterful!

[Umbelina]

On 5/15/2018 at 9:05 AM, sistermagpie said:

Clearly the FBI should watch more TV.

Or actually, you know, operate like the premier law enforcement agency in the United States.

On 5/15/2018 at 9:12 AM, SunnyBeBe said:

You're right about that.  If you watch a lot of true crime, you'll see that a lot of real life intruders enter a house through an unlocked window.  It's quite common.  I think that some people believe that because a window is located high off the ground, it's not an easy access point for a criminal, but, that is very wrong.  Criminals hardly see that as a deterrent at all.  They can jump, climb, get boosted, scale balconies, etc.  

It's common in regular crime, it actually even happened once to me, someone trying to come in from my fire escape in SF.  It's not even remotely possible that a couple under FBI protective custody would only be guarded by one guy standing at the entrance to the building.  At all.  In no universe.  The FBI would certainly be aware of the fire escape.  More importantly?  There would be two of them in the apartment at all times, if they decided to use such an insecure location, which is another can of worms.

We saw protective custody earlier in this show, remember?  Two agents, inside, replaced by another team, blown up by the guy the KGB hired to kill scientists.  Single detached house.

On 6/26/2018 at 10:25 PM, jas said:

I am new to the series, just having started to watch it seriously (from the beginning) two weeks ago. the scene of the murder of Gennadi and his wife disturbed me more than any of their previous murders.

I agree that the setup was ridiculous: Elizabeth knowing the right window, the back of the building unguarded, the window unlocked (opening to a fire escape, no less)?

All that aside, and with the proviso that I've only watched it once, I believe Elizabeth came in (knife drawn) intending to kill him. When she heard his wife, she backed off and was trying to get out. But when she was behind the door, I didn't think that he had detected her. I think she saw an irresistible opportunity, and motivated by her dedication to the cause, her training, personal anger, bloodlust, or whatever, leapt at it. Then of course she had to kill the wife, even more horribly. 

Then to top it off, the shot of the kid's show playing on the TV, telling us the even more terrible truth even before panning to the child. Not actually showing the kid discovering his parents, but leading to the inescapable conclusion that it would happen. Masterful!

Mostly correct.

She had no choice but to kill him once he spotted her, it wasn't "irresistible" so much as impossible to avoid.

[Nash]

Well, 5 episodes down and I simply don’t see the Feds breaking the network unless there is a huge plot swing in their favour. My bet is that P&E fake their deaths and head back home to an interesting welcome, a few moments before the FBI do have a breakthrough, leaving Paige and Henry in the clear to become a sleeper agent and an FBI agent respectively. 

[limecoke]

I’ve been around awhile but back in the day, I was not taught that America won WWII, I was taught the Allies won...US, GB & the USSR.  An uneasy alliance, for sure but an alliance nonetheless.  Didn’t know the Soviet death toll until I was older but knew it was far worse due to Hitler’s relentless determination to invade them.  I wonder if the death toll includes every Russian Jew slaughtered by the SS?

The only thing that bothered me was Elizabeth’s bitterness.  Was it just against the US education system?  I’d argue that the Soviet education system played fast and loose with facts about the West but we don’t talk about that, do we Liz?The war toll was horrific but it took the US, GB and Canada from the west and the USSR from the east to bring down the Nazis.  

Elizabeth is seriously crazy at this point and Paige is beyond annoying.  Run, Philip.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, limecoke said:

The only thing that bothered me was Elizabeth’s bitterness.  Was it just against the US education system?  I’d argue that the Soviet education system played fast and loose with facts about the West but we don’t talk about that, do we Liz?The war toll was horrific but it took the US, GB and Canada from the west and the USSR from the east to bring down the Nazis.  

It seems like by this point Elizabeth is just constantly trying to amp up her hatred of the US. She's probably got reasons for doing this. One, she's pushing herself to keep doing the job even though she's burning out, and she doesn't have Philip there to make it easier. Two, she's dragging Paige into it so she's got to justify that to herself, Three, she's hanging out with Claudia who also basically lives only to fight the Cold War so she's picking up that attitude. And now, four, things are even worse because she's involved in this suicidal mission with poison hanging around her neck so I think she just hates everything. She has to focus on the USSR being the victim of everyone because that's what gives her life meaning at this point.

Kind of funny how different Paige and Kimmy have developed. They both started out pretty lost but Kimmy seemed way more open to positive influences, including in large part Philip's.

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 7:39 AM, Bannon said:

...and, truth be told, "Which enemy of the Nazis lost the most lives in WWII?" is not anywhere close to synonymous with "Which enemy of the Nazis did the most to defeat the Nazis?". 

It is said that Great Britain gave time (by not surrendering in from May 1940 to June 1941, the Soviet Union both killed most enemies and suffered itself most offers and the US gave material to both to sustain.

While Germany waged a "normal" war in the West, in the East it waged a war of extermanination, and not only against Jews. F.ex. among Soviet POWs also Comissars, Politruks and Communists were killed according so called Commissar order.

But the great losses were also due to the incompetent and brutal way Stalin waged the war. He killed thousands of officers in 1937-8. In June 1941 he didn't believe the information of his own spies about the attack. He forbade soldiers to retreat and the result was especially in 1941 huge mottis where 5.7 million soldiers were taken to POWs. There was no concern how many lives were lost: f.ex. the soldiers could be ordered to attack straight towards the machine gun fire. Even minor misconduct was punished severely: in Stalingrad alone two divisions were ordered by their own superiors. And the evacuation of civilian population failed in many regions: f.ex. among those who were ecacuated to Arkhangelsl region, almost every family lost a small child or an old person.

I feel great sympathy towards the sufferings of ordinary Soviet people during the WW2, but I find it very strange that they never seem to ask whether all offers were really necessary.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 8:43 AM, Erin9 said:

I was proud of Philip for doing right by Kimmie. That was amazing. 

I understand why Philip did it - after learning from Stan about killings and guessing it was Elizabeth's work, he simply caouldn't help her any more.

No doubt Philip did right towards Kimmie, but it's another matter if Philip's decision was right when one thinks the big picture. Helping Elizabeth was a way - perhaps the only way - to get information what task she has been given. Philip was asked by Oleg to prevent her to do it. If he fails or doesn't even try, he causes havoc to millions. That's kind of decisions spies as well politicians must do.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 8:45 AM, Umbelina said:

Stalin indeed caused many deaths on his own, from believing in his treaty with Germany, they were never allies, but they did sign a non-aggression pact promising not to invade each other

That was a public part. There was also a secret protocol where they divided Poland and Eastern Europe. The areas Stalin incorporated to the Soviet Union in 1939-40, Roosevelt and Churchill accepted in Yalta. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎26‎.‎4‎.‎2018 at 4:06 PM, benteen said:

Tatiana's confrontation with Oleg was GREAT and definitely the highlight of the episode.  I was surprised that she was still at the same job because I had forgotten that he burned her mission with William.  

Tatiana had been promised a job of a boss of Rezidentura somewhere else (Africa?) but it was cancelled when her mission failed. I guess her area (diseases as weapons) is such that that there aren't many willing to do it. 

It was interesting that she didn't speak anything about safeguarding of her coutry, like Elizabeth, only about promoting her career.

It was no wonder that she suspected Oleg as she herself had told him - she made the most basic mistake to confine in bed. 

[Roseanna]

I think I invented a better plan than Elizabeth. Kimmie could have had a small "accident" - not so bad that she must stay in the hospital, but such that she couldn't go to Greece (btw, whoever visits Greece in November?) but stays at home. Simple!  

[sistermagpie]

46 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I understand why Philip did it - after learning from Stan about killings and guessing it was Elizabeth's work, he simply caouldn't help her any more.

No doubt Philip did right towards Kimmie, but it's another matter if Philip's decision was right when one thinks the big picture. Helping Elizabeth was a way - perhaps the only way - to get information what task she has been given. Philip was asked by Oleg to prevent her to do it. If he fails or doesn't even try, he causes havoc to millions. That's kind of decisions spies as well politicians must do.  

I think he had good reason to think it wouldn't matter much. She told him all she was going to tell him. He just had to get her across the border. She wasn't telling him everything just because he helped her with that. 

15 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

I think I invented a better plan than Elizabeth. Kimmie could have had a small "accident" - not so bad that she must stay in the hospital, but such that she couldn't go to Greece (btw, whoever visits Greece in November?) but stays at home. Simple!  

Elizabeth's plan was incredible stupid really.  It would have surely disrupted the summit with an international incident wouldn't it?

[Roseanna]

About Paige: why would any Western girl want to be like her mother and spend most time with her? Yes, Paige rebels when Elizabeth gives her a sensible advice not to have sex with possible sources as she isn't ready for it, but when she reads that KGB uses sex and Elizabeth says they don't, she believes her.

Of course also Elizabeth is very much connected with her mother's ideological lessons, but she was born and raised in the USSR after the WW2. In any other country, a child whose father was executed during the war, would be extremely angry towards her own government. Instead, Elizabeth clearly wants to compensate her father's "crime" (we can't be sure that her father even committed a real one, considering the Soviet harsh punishment even for minor offences) and prove herself a model Soviet patriot (without ever pondering that patriotitic feelings can be used also for bad aims).

Instead, Philip's father was a guard in the camp and he evidently brought home things he got from the prisoners, either stole them or exchanged them). It would be likely that it would Philip who would defend the Soviet system but, perhaps because his father died before he indoctrinated him or because his own nature, he is the one who doubts and his doubts are IMO more patriotic than Elizabeth's blind loyalty to the "cause".  

[kokapetl]

On 23/10/2018 at 3:43 AM, Roseanna said:

It is said that Great Britain gave time (by not surrendering in from May 1940 to June 1941, the Soviet Union both killed most enemies and suffered itself most offers and the US gave material to both to sustain.

While Germany waged a "normal" war in the West, in the East it waged a war of extermanination, and not only against Jews. F.ex. among Soviet POWs also Comissars, Politruks and Communists were killed according so called Commissar order.

But the great losses were also due to the incompetent and brutal way Stalin waged the war. He killed thousands of officers in 1937-8. In June 1941 he didn't believe the information of his own spies about the attack. He forbade soldiers to retreat and the result was especially in 1941 huge mottis where 5.7 million soldiers were taken to POWs. There was no concern how many lives were lost: f.ex. the soldiers could be ordered to attack straight towards the machine gun fire. Even minor misconduct was punished severely: in Stalingrad alone two divisions were ordered by their own superiors. And the evacuation of civilian population failed in many regions: f.ex. among those who were ecacuated to Arkhangelsl region, almost every family lost a small child or an old person.

I feel great sympathy towards the sufferings of ordinary Soviet people during the WW2, but I find it very strange that they never seem to ask whether all offers were really necessary.  

Couldn’t have his Red Army look weak, could he?

[Umbelina]

He was using outmoded methods.  Overwhelming numbers had always worked for Russia in the past.  He'd previously killed most of his competent generals.

There is so much more to the eastern front side of the war, including many betrayals by Truman failing to uphold Roosevelt's promises, and of course, it's strongly rumored that both Churchill and Truman wanted Russians and Germans to kill as many of each other as possible to make post war strength be firmly in the hands of the West.  So help was delayed purposefully, even though it extended the war.

Everyone knew about the "secret" agreement to divide Poland, they weren't stupid, it was obvious.

The more I've read about the Russian side of WWII the more I've learned. 

Yes, though, I don't think there is any proof that Elizabeth's dad was really a "traitor" in any civilized or modern definition of the word.  It's too bad the show didn't go there really.  Also, I get all the patriotic fervor, but Elizabeth's mother had to know the realities, but perhaps she was just an Elizabeth, blind faith, allegiance to leaders no matter what?  Retreating is a legitimate warfare tactic, and no one outside of Stalin really believed that if you are out of ammunition and facing tanks and a well armed overwhelming force that surrendering is "treason."  In Stalin's mind, failing to commit suicide was treason.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

About Paige: why would any Western girl want to be like her mother and spend most time with her? Yes, Paige rebels when Elizabeth gives her a sensible advice not to have sex with possible sources as she isn't ready for it, but when she reads that KGB uses sex and Elizabeth says they don't, she believes her.

Of course also Elizabeth is very much connected with her mother's ideological lessons, but she was born and raised in the USSR after the WW2. In any other country, a child whose father was executed during the war, would be extremely angry towards her own government. Instead, Elizabeth clearly wants to compensate her father's "crime" (we can't be sure that her father even committed a real one, considering the Soviet harsh punishment even for minor offences) and prove herself a model Soviet patriot (without ever pondering that patriotitic feelings can be used also for bad aims).

Instead, Philip's father was a guard in the camp and he evidently brought home things he got from the prisoners, either stole them or exchanged them). It would be likely that it would Philip who would defend the Soviet system but, perhaps because his father died before he indoctrinated him or because his own nature, he is the one who doubts and his doubts are IMO more patriotic than Elizabeth's blind loyalty to the "cause".  

When we first meet Paige she's much more independent in the way she relates to her mother, even telling her that her social life is supposed to be with her friends and not her mom. I can't even really blame her regression on learning her parents' secret because it mirrors her relationship to Pastor Tim too much. It was with the church that Paige first started clearly choosing that kind of thing over relationships with kids her own age.

I always thought that another thing going on with Elizabeth was her mother's implication that if her father was a traitor her was unworthy of the love of his family. They both are very stuck in a pretty early stage of personal development, it seems, where they just want to trust in this parental figure--one that happens to be a real parent, but who represents this larger powerful parental figure of the state. When faced with evidence that this power doesn't have their best interests at heart or is lying, they double down on believing them. At least for as long as they could.

From what little we know about Philip's family it doesn't seem like they were particularly proud of his father's work. He himself speculates that his mother didn't approve of it and that's why he was never told what his father did.

Edited October 25, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Dev F]

On 10/22/2018 at 3:22 PM, Roseanna said:

Tatiana had been promised a job of a boss of Rezidentura somewhere else (Africa?) but it was cancelled when her mission failed. I guess her area (diseases as weapons) is such that that there aren't many willing to do it. 

Tatiana did work for the KGB's bioweapons divisions, but it wasn't her only job at the Rezidentura. After all, no one else, not even the rezident, knew she was associated with Department Twelve, but they didn't think she sat around all day doing nothing; she must've been engaged in a lot of non-bioweapons work as well.

So it's possible that she got booted from Department Twelve after the operation with William imploded but stayed on at the Rezidentura in her other, less sensitive capacities.

On 10/22/2018 at 3:48 PM, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth's plan was incredible stupid really.  It would have surely disrupted the summit with an international incident wouldn't it?

I'd say it was specifically designed not to provoke an international incident. They weren't planning to kidnap Kimmy or anything like that; they're were trying to engineer a situation in which she could plausibly be arrested by Soviet authorities on legitimate charges. I don't think they intended for Breland to realize that the KGB was the cause of Kimmy's troubles, just that they could pull strings to offer her a solution.

As usual, though, the show doesn't stitch up the operational details super tight, so maybe it requires some suspension of disbelief to accept that Breland wouldn't immediately put two and two together. But I think that was the intention.

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

From what little we know about Philip's family it doesn't seem like they were particularly proud of his father's work. He himself speculates that his mother didn't approve of it and that's why he was never told what his father did.

 

Which in turn informs Philip's angst about Henry in season 5, because if Philip was chained to his father's destiny despite the fact that his family protected him from learning the truth, how can he be sure that Henry won't inherit his father's darkness in turn?

Edited October 25, 2018 by Dev F

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

I'd say it was specifically designed not to provoke an international incident. They weren't planning to kidnap Kimmy or anything like that; they're were trying to engineer a situation in which she could plausibly be arrested by Soviet authorities on legitimate charges. I don't think they intended for Breland to realize that the KGB was the cause of Kimmy's troubles, just that they could pull strings to offer her a solution.

As usual, though, the show doesn't stitch up the operational details super tight, so maybe it requires some suspension of disbelief to accept that Breland wouldn't immediately put two and two together. But I think that was the intention.

It could be both, really. Elizabeth was obviously not on top of her game in S6 and she'd started leaning on muscle because she didn't have the time or inclination to do anything else. Breland might have just been another Renhull waiting to happen, something where Elizabeth thought she'd just kidnap his daughter under the cover of having her arrested on a drug charge and then use that to blackmail him into giving her info but in reality it would never have worked the way she thought it was going to work. Something Philip saw when he thought about it clearly, although in his case he was just thinking about the likelihood of anybody looking out for Kimmie. If nothing else, the plan was obviously desperate and probably not half as well constructed as it needed to be to work. 

2 hours ago, Dev F said:

Which in turn informs Philip's angst about Henry in season 5, because if Philip was chained to his father's destiny despite the fact that his family protected him from learning the truth, how can he be sure that Henry won't inherit his father's darkness in turn?

Yup. Philip basically chooses to handle Henry exactly the way his own family handled him, just as Elizabeth is following in her mother's footsteps in some ways with Paige. He just tries to protect him from unpleasantness as much as possible. Yet we know Philip's life was full of unpleasantness--possibly some that he, in turn, hid from his family (if he didn't tell anyone about murdering those boys). So Henry winds up in the same situation, not actually knowing his father and not knowing how dark he was or wasn't. Philip even lets Henry go off to school at a young age, just as he went. 

Though of course, they're not exactly the same as their parents and the kids aren't exactly the same as them, so they don't know how it'll turn out. 

[Roseanna]

On ‎1‎.‎5‎.‎2018 at 5:06 AM, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth was impatient with Aleksei when he talked about standing on line for food for hours, comparing it to this time when they were starving. But Aleksei was actually giving very valid criticism of the distribution system. It's silly to accept that in honor of the people who starved to death in the siege of Leningrad. 

Alexei was right in substance: it's quite different to suffer hardships during the war (although not all of them were necessary) and 40 years after it. However, he used the wrong method: even if a nagging person is right, nobody doesn't listen to her.

As for the siege of Leningrad, Mauno Koivisto who was the President of Finland in 1982-1994 could Russian and was interested in history and followed new findings in the Soviet archives in the 90ies. In one of his books he told that although the Soviet Union prided to have a planned economy, the resources weren't inventoried. The siege created a situation where the authorities had a number of people to feed, so it was necessary to know what kind of rationary does could be distribured. It  it was only in 1941 they began to count how many resources they had, their location and carrying capacity.    

In his book Koivisto also translated this Soviet document: on 23rd October 1941 the leaders of civil defence of Leningrad, Zdhanov and Kuznetsov, was told by Stalin's orders via Stavka (Headquarters) that Leningrad's defence couldn't be guaranteed and if it was necessary to abandon the city, one must concentrate on 8-9 divisions in order to break through to the east. "To us, the army is more important." 

In his telegrams, Stalin criticized the military command of Leningrad that it had allowed the military units to chose its own leaders. Zdhanov and Kuznetsov answered that this hadn't happened only in new units just formed from workers but also in normal divisions whose officers had been fled.

After the war, the central leaders of "the Hero City" must pay a heavy price for surviving the siege. Almost all the those who had led the defence were destructed in Stalin's new purges. The historian Nikita Lomagin thinks that the reason was Stalin's fear that they had become too popular.

Especially interesting is Aleksei Kuznetsov who wanted to reform management techniques. He proposed that the party and government should give less orders as the people know themselves that that one must sow in the spring and harvest in the fall. Evidently he also had some understanding about market mechanism as under the siege people had money but goods were lacking which caused local inflation and the party had to adapt oneself to the situation.   

Kuznetsov and some others were condemed and shot, and after that also over 2000 of nomenklatura in Leningrad were condemned, of them nearly 200 to death.        

[Roseanna]

Claudia's story about exchanging sex for food was interesting because that sort of private memory doesn't exactly fit in the official Soviet history. And it was the only version that was allowed in public.

And even Claudia could only tell an anecdote. She didn't tell how many people, when fighting the enemy, did so believing that they would have a better life after that but instead, they got new purges. 

The sufferings of the Soviet peoples were real enough, but the official myth of The Great Patriotic War was used to conceal the other tragedy, Stalin's terror. Yes, Khrushchev condemned it - but only those that concerned the faithful Communists and top officers. It's no coincidence that celebrating the Victory Day began to be emphasized under "the time of stagnation" under Brezhnev. 

After the Soviet Union fell, the only thing that was left to the Russians to be proud of was winning the Great Patriotic War.   

[Roseanna]

Some have wondered why Elizabeth doesn't make the conclusion that because the living standard in the US is higher than that in the USSR, the former system is better than the latter. But the Communists didn't think like that. Instead, they made the comparision between the present US (with all negative matters that one could read in American newspapers) and the Communist utopia that would be realized in the future. 

It seems a little odd that people seems to believe in that Communist utopia more in 30ies, even in the camps, than in the years of stagnation" when life was materially better and one didn't have to be afraid of arrest without reason, but I guess it was because it's during the hardest times that people need something to believe in, in order to live.

Also, even many who got a job when the Old Bolsheviks were purged in 1937-8, seems to have taken a party card more for their career than for their conviction. Oleg's father seems to be a rare bird.     

[sistermagpie]

On 4/27/2018 at 10:54 PM, Kathemy said:

I'm a bit reluctant to bring this up (for obvious reasons) but did anyone else catch a quite disturbing undertone to the way that fight scene was shot? An undertone only strengthened by the show going out of its way to model Paige into a younger and a zillion times more naïve version of her mother, to the point of ever-increasing physical resemblance?

 

On 4/28/2018 at 2:50 AM, Kathemy said:

Okay, I'll just come clear. This was the episode where Philip slept with Kimmy, a line he thought he'd never cross, a girl who "could be his daughter". And I felt what I can only describe as a sadistic sexual undertone to the fight scene between him and Paige. The way it was shot seemed to mirror Elizabeth "sparring" with her trainer in the pilot. Not that Philip raped his own daughter, of course, but.

And thanks to @duVerre for the reply, very good one.

i was reading this old thread and remembered this convo and I realized that one of the cool things about this fight to me is that I think it's blocked to be almost the exact opposite of Elizabeth's rape.

That is, there's *a lot* about it that completely mirrors it. In both scenes the young woman is surprised by the appearance of a man who's not her usual teacher. In both cases the girl sees herself having a chance to show her skills--Elizabeth's more eager and nervous, Paige a bit more arrogant (and Philip actually says, "I want to see what you've learned"). In both cases the guy claims they're going to fight like it's not a class--Timoshev says he's going to show her how they do it "in the field" and Philip says they don't actually wear pads "in the real word." in both cases the woman is surprised at how outmatched she is and how different this is from her usual training. Both men are there to teach her a different lesson than she's come to expect of sparring--both are there to make her helpless against him. Perhaps most viscerally, the fights end in very similar positions with the man behind the woman, pressing her down from behind. Elizabeth's on the floor, Paige is against the wall. Philip even kicks Paige's legs apart when she tries to weakly kick back at him, iirc.

I think all that's intentional and meant to echo Elizabeth's rape. But it's the exact opposite precisely because it lacks the sexual undertones and the sadism. Those things are there in the superficial details, but Philip actually is trying to teach her something without hurting her. Whatever grim satisfaction he may absolutely be getting from being in control for once or just shutting up someone who's been condescending to him, he's not getting pleasure out of hurting or humiliating her. So Paige, unlike Elizabeth, emerges basically without being traumatized in the way her mother was. This actually is a lesson and it actually is safe.  (The closest Philip comes to even hitting her--something Timoshev did right away to Elizabeth--is to block her own punches.)

I do wonder, though, if there's more to the wake-up call than just her limitations. I mean, if we see her as seeing here that perhaps Elizabeth's given her a false sense of power, or that she's fooling herself, I do wonder if this is also a hint she's not ready to yet acknowledge that she still doesn't really know either of her parents. It's really not Philip who's on the outside here. When she says she's "not like" Philip she's absolutely right, she just doesn't understand that she's not like Elizabeth or Claudia either.

One more comment that references spoiler to a later ep:

Spoiler

In their confrontation in Jennings, Elizabeth the last line--meaning the line that makes Paige walk out in defeat--is Elizabeth revealing that she and Philip are *both* "whores" just as this scene maybe for the first time makes clear that they're both deadly. Each time she thinks she's processed the limited "otherness" of her parents it she falls through another "other" hole in the floor.

Edited November 14, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

 

i was reading this old thread and remembered this convo and I realized that one of the cool things about this fight to me is that I think it's blocked to be almost the exact opposite of Elizabeth's rape.

That is, there's *a lot* about it that completely mirrors it. In both scenes the young woman is surprised by the appearance of a man who's not her usual teacher. In both cases the girl sees herself having a chance to show her skills--Elizabeth's more eager and nervous, Paige a bit more arrogant (and Philip actually says, "I want to see what you've learned"). In both cases the guy claims they're going to fight like it's not a class--Timoshev says he's going to show her how they do it "in the field" and Philip says they don't actually wear pads "in the real word." in both cases the woman is surprised at how outmatched she is and how different this is from her usual training. Both men are there to teach her a different lesson than she's come to expect of sparring--both are there to make her helpless against him. Perhaps most viscerally, the fights end in very similar positions with the man behind the woman, pressing her down from behind. Elizabeth's on the floor, Paige is against the wall. Philip even kicks Paige's legs apart when she tries to weakly kick back at him, iirc.

I think all that's intentional and meant to echo Elizabeth's rape. But it's the exact opposite precisely because it lacks the sexual undertones and the sadism. Those things are there in the superficial details, but Philip actually is trying to teach her something without hurting her. Whatever grim satisfaction he may absolutely be getting from being in control for once or just shutting up someone who's been condescending to him, he's not getting pleasure out of hurting or humiliating her. So Paige, unlike Elizabeth, emerges basically without being traumatized in the way her mother was. This actually is a lesson and it actually is safe.  (The closest Philip comes to even hitting her--something Timoshev did right away to Elizabeth--is to block her own punches.)

I do wonder, though, if there's more to the wake-up call than just her limitations. I mean, if we see her as seeing here that perhaps Elizabeth's given her a false sense of power, or that she's fooling herself, I do wonder if this is also a hint she's not ready to yet acknowledge that she still doesn't really know either of her parents. It's really not Philip who's on the outside here. When she says she's "not like" Philip she's absolutely right, she just doesn't understand that she's not like Elizabeth or Claudia either.

One more comment that references spoiler to a later ep:

  Reveal hidden contents

In their confrontation in Jennings, Elizabeth the last line--meaning the line that makes Paige walk out in defeat--is Elizabeth revealing that she and Philip are *both* "whores" just as this scene maybe for the first time makes clear that they're both deadly. Each time she thinks she's processed the limited "otherness" of her parents it she falls through another "other" hole in the floor.

Great breakdown of the similarities there.

I dismissed the original post because I get so sick of fathers being accused of sexual intentions towards their daughters, for example, when Don Draper got into Sally's bed.

Philip went over there to try to talk with Paige, to connect with his daughter, and possibly try yet again to save her from the life Elizabeth and the KGB planned.  As usual, she wouldn't listen to her father, and dismissed him as "not like us" completely ignoring the fact that he'd been a spy as long as her mother and probably had both knowledge and skills that could be useful to Paige. 

I think it's pretty obvious Elizabeth encouraged, or at the very least didn't discourage Paige's snottiness and insults toward her father, and I ask myself why a mother would do that?  The most logical answer, knowing this family, and the division between Liz and Phil about Paige spying, is that Elizabeth wanted her daughter all to herself, to recreate the dynamic between Liz's own mother and Liz, where no father was around, and indeed, perhaps even that the father was a coward.

Anyway, when talking was obviously not going to work, Philip wasn't going to just give up, so he used a very smart way of opening Paige's firmly shut eyes.  Instead of TELLING he SHOWED.  He did so skillfully and carefully, never actually hurting his daughter, even without pads and gloves.  He used one of the things Paige was so stupidly proud of, her fighting "skills" and showed her how easily someone could dominate and kill her.  He didn't enjoy it, he was not laughing or smiling, and there was certainly nothing sexual about it.
The real pity is there was no follow up to that scene.  Did it influence Paige later in the series?  I'd like to think it did, but the show

Spoiler

 

never bothered, since this became the Elizabeth and Paige story.  Is that even a part of the reason Paige got off the train, or had the fight about sex with her lying mother?  I would have loved something, anything, from Philip or Paige about that fight, sad that we never got it.

 

[sistermagpie]

49 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I dismissed the original post because I get so sick of fathers being accused of sexual intentions towards their daughters, for example, when Don Draper got into Sally's bed.

 

Yes, I remember elsewhere someone else wanted to view it in a standard misogynist way as well, that since this was a man fighting with a teenage girl he had to be making himself feel like a man by beating up on a girl, Which is completely not happening in the scene--and also implies that teenage girls should always be able to think they're the most powerful even when that's dangerous. 

50 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The real pity is there was no follow up to that scene.  Did it influence Paige later in the series?  I'd like to think it did, but the show

Guess to get specific I should answer this part in the Paige thread!

[Roseanna]

I just read a novel by Elena Chizhova, Time of Women, that describes well difference between the official Soviet version and the reality, both in Leningrad in the 60ies and old women's private memories:

https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/4419381.Elena_Chizhova
 

[sistermagpie]

I'm not sure why this idea just struck me, but thinking about Elizabeth's story about how her "first time" wasn't really her first time because the boy was having sex with her couch, it's quite possible that story was made up or taken from someone else.

There's plenty of reason to think that it wasn't, of course. One could argue that the whole thing of those meetings if for Elizabeth and Claudia to get to talk about their real selves to Paige so she really knows them. So that could be an argument for how Elizabeth not only wouldn't lie, but it's important that she's telling the truth.

But I find it just as believable that she was lying given the way the story goes. Elizabeth told Philip she'd never had a boyfriend before she got recruited--and sure, this boy doesn't have to have been a boyfriend. Maybe Elizabeth for some reason just wanted to have sex with any boy, even in a communal living room, at 15 and presumably hope she didn't get pregnant like Irina did. But it also seemed important that the story she told Paige was a story that could easily have come out of Paige's own high school rather than her and Timoshev (who I assumed was her actual first time, technically, given her saying she hadn't had a boyfriend) or her in sex training, something she told Philip she doesn't think about.

That would fit with Elizabeth's overall lying about the area of sex. The same woman who flat-out tells Paige they don't use sex in their work chooses the kind of first time story she'd want for Paige and that makes her sound like someone Paige could relate to. (Claudia shared a harsher story about trading sex for food but her first time story was about her wedding night.) I 100% believe things Elizabeth tells Philip about herself (or at least believe that she believes it) but with Paige things can go either way.

It would be interesting because I was thinking how Elizabeth and Philip kind of go to opposite extremes with the kids in that Elizabeth is desperate that Paige "know her" to the point where she doesn't want to know Paige except as a mini-me version of herself. Where as Philip is determined to let Henry "be himself" without screwing him up, and does that by not letting Henry know him much at all. Neither extreme is ideal. But since we know Elizabeth actually is also still lying to Paige about the work, especially this aspect of it, it would fit the pattern for her to have cribbed somebody else's story for her. Elizabeth's more conflicted about what she'd doing with Paige while Philip is more resigned with Henry imo. Throughout the series when they started to have problems with the work Elizabeth always had more trouble with the sexual aspect of the work while Philip had more trouble with the violence.

Also there's a neat symmetry to how this is the one ep where Philip allows himself to be seen by one of his kids when he spars with Paige.

Edited November 25, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I 100% believe things Elizabeth tells Philip about herself (or at least believe that she believes it) but with Paige things can go either way.

Elizabeth didn't tell Philip that her father was a traitor in the war which is understandable because that was a shame. But otherwise I believe that she told him the truth about her past.