S06.E05: The Great Patriotic War

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

As the summit fast approaches, Elizabeth enlists Philip's help for a mission that could yield game-changing intel.

[Bannon]

I think the slaughter streak ends this week, and Renee has no lines. Unless I'm wrong and Liz murders Renee, and Renee's lines are "You don't have to do this! Since we have known each other, I've literally done NOTHING!!!!"

[Bannon]

11 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Renee does bring on the pretty, so I hope she stays til the end.  I'm still hoping that she is there to bring Stan down, and that she is working for the U.S.

That sort of plot development would have no relationship to the real world  since U.S. government agencies do not have undercover agents marry agent of U.S. agencies, as part of investigatory efforts. 

Of course, the KGB did not have illegals in the United States piling up corpses like at the Battle of Gettysburg, so a relationship to the real world is not really pertinent, in terms of it being a possible plot development.

[CaliCheeseSucks]

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Renee does bring on the pretty, so I hope she stays til the end.  I'm still hoping that she is there to bring Stan down, and that she is working for the U.S.

While I think that Stan has become cartoonishly oblivious over the seasons, why would you root for him to be "brought down"? He's ostensibly a good, if clueless, guy.

[crgirl412]

27 million Russians lost in WW II????  Fact check time!! 

[jjj]

So, Elizabeth still has a tiny molecule of soul left; was it the painter that made her realize this, and not massacre the child?

[SeanC]

Hey, there's some character development for Elizabeth:  not killing the child so as to spare him the agony of living a life without Communism.

I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.

[Shriekingeel]

Can we acknowledge Elizabeth as the monster she is yet? Abducting and torturing a child isn’t grrrrrrrl power, it’s a crime against humanity. The “she’s just a soldier fighting for her country” nonsense no longer applies when you’re committing atrocities. And that’s not counting the two horrific murders.  

 

Phillip sabotaging the kidnap plot is his finest hour. 

[FormerMod-a1]

Dear lord this episode was brutal.  From Philip and Kimmie (both times) to Elizbeth killing the defectors and Stan's reaction, to Philip showing Paige just how little she knows (although I don't think she totally got it, but at least realized some,).

[jjj]

I was surprised at the final segment -- thought the episode had ended with Stan outside with the police.  Then, I suddenly thought for a second that he was testing Philip's reaction to the killings, the way he looked at Philip *intently* while his back was turned.  It seemed odd to suddenly show up, and to talk about *that*.  But then it was just old Stan again.

Edited April 26, 2018 by jjj

[AimingforYoko]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Hey, there's some character development for Elizabeth:  not killing the child so as to spare him the agony of living a life without Communism.

I'm not sure if I'm joking or not.

It's kind of sad when the best thing we can say is, "Hey, at least she didn't kill the kid."

Damn, a lot went down this episode. Ending with Philip committing outright treason.

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, crgirl412 said:

27 million Russians lost in WW II????  Fact check time!! 

Quote

 

The Numbers
The populations of the United States and the USSR were about the same, 130,000,000, when both nations went to war within six months of each other in 1941. To Americans, we were sending our boys to fight a foreign war that we'd never experience. To the Soviets, it was an up front and personal war of monumental savagery. America would lose slightly more than 400,000 soldiers (killed or missing) and almost no civilians during World War II and the USSR, depending on which historian you believe, would lose at least 11,000,000 soldiers (killed and missing) as well as somewhere between 7,000,000 and 20,000,000 million of its civilian population during the Great Patriotic War.

Looking only at Anglo-American forces engaged against German soldiers on our two fronts, northwest Europe and Italy, the United States lost 139,380 soldiers (killed and missing) during the conflict. General Eisenhower had just over 3,000,000 men under his command, with about a third of them safely in England, and faced a German Army of less than 1,500,000 of which our forces killed 834,314. At the same time, Soviet armies in excess of 20,000,000 soldiers were fighting German armies totaling 5,700,000 at their strongest and killed 2,415,690 of them as they fought their way out of Russia and on to Berlin.

 

These are the numbers that make Russians bristle when they hear Americans say to each other that we won the war in Europe. For every American soldier killed fighting Germans, eighty Soviet soldiers died fighting them. On the other hand, Americans deeply resent Soviet textbooks telling their children their version of history with passages such as:

 

http://www.eisenhowerinstitute.org/about/living_history/wwii_soviet_experience.dot

[CaliCheeseSucks]

Another exciting episode of Paige Jennings: Teenage Spy Learning To Booze And Her Angry Mother, Who Smokes A Lot.

Honeypotting her own husband, a new low – even for Elizabeth. They sure are making easy (easier?) to really want to see Elizabeth dead by the end.

Thank god Philip did the right thing with regard to Kimmie. The show's recent suckage aside, Philip (and Rhys) continue to be compelling television.

The trailers had telegraphed the climactic assassinations, so there hasn't been any tension on that front for a few episodes.

The showrunners, being Inside the Beltway guys, have no excuse for pretending that D.C.'s hometown paper wouldn't be all over this string of high profile murders/'suicide' with front page stories every day.

Then again, I can't believe they thought the audience who has been there from the beginning were clamoring for scenes of Claudia, Elizabeth and Paige getting drunk together, the better to teach Junior Spy how to hold her liquor.

Yikes. I mean, I can't believe this is the same show that three or four seasons ago, I was begging people to watch.

[Primetimer]

Witness relocation is the least of Gennadi and Sofia's problems in our latest EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP!

View the full article

[jjj]

Oh, Tatiana, Oleg really has your number. 

Did we know he had done some reporting on her "operation"?  I think she was actually angry, but also trying to make him feel guilty to get information out of him.  Please stay safe, Oleg. 

Oh, and I noticed that this episode was directed by Thomas Schlamme  ("West Wing") -- don't know if he has directed other "Americans" episodes. 

Elizabeth's "first time I had sex" story was a complete fiction, right?  I thought it was when she was raped by her trainer. 

[AimingforYoko]

8 minutes ago, jjj said:

Did we know he had done some reporting on her "operation"? 

He's the one who gave Stan the tip on the USSR's biological program which led to William's (Dylan Baker) arrest. That was Tatiana's baby.

[Ellaria]

I enjoyed all of the scenes without Paige. The “drink vodka and talk about sex” scene missed the mark. Ugh! It wasn’t insightful or funny and the acting was awful.

8 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Honeypotting her own husband, a new low – even for Elizabeth. They sure are making easy (easier?) to really want to see Elizabeth dead by the end.

Thank god Philip did the right thing with regard to Kimmie. The show's recent suckage aside, Philip (and Rhys) continue to be compelling television.

Frankly, Philip is one of the only reasons I am still watching. (The other being Oleg.) I think that he has finally found a path that he can live with after years of being so tortured. 

[mattie0808]

Man, I was cheering for Phillip to kick Paige's ass more than I was cheering during the Cavs game tonight. The look on his face when she said, "I don't think I'm the same as you," was almost, by itself, worth sitting through this episode. Phillip was compelling as all hell tonight, and thank goodness he gave Paige the beating she deserved, and completely killed the Kimmie mission.

I really need every single scene for the rest of this series to have Phillip or Oleg in it. Preferrably, JUST them, but I'll take what I can get. There's such a stark difference in quality when they aren't on the screen.

Another meaningless scene with Stan's wife. Ok.

What a great surprise to see Tatiana again!!! Her scenes were great.

How the hell has this show honestly turned spying into a teenage slumber party's idea of girl power? WTF? Are they serious? And okay, picture book time with Paige? I was half expecting her to wide-eyed ask, "Do people, sometimes...die...in wars?" SHEESH.

Alright, add two more to Elizabeth's kill list. She didn't kill a sleeping child. Yay...?

Edited April 26, 2018 by mattie0808

[chocolatine]

14 hours ago, crgirl412 said:

27 million Russians lost in WW II????  Fact check time!! 

27 million Soviets. There was almost no family that didn't lose someone.

Speaking of WWII, I wanted to slap Paige when she laughed at Claudia for having sex with a soldier in exchange for food. People did much worse things for food. My grandfather, at 11 years old, was searching dead soldiers’ bodies for any food they may have had on them. That little snot Paige knows nothing.

13 hours ago, jjj said:

Oh, Tatiana, Oleg really has your number. 

I think it's the other way around. Oleg is trying to fly under the radar as much as possible. It's Tatiana who's pissed and wants to get back at him.

I love that Philip finally took a stand, but if Elizabeth finds out, he'll be a dead man. Do you guys think he'll be telling her he's going to Greece but will actually change his identity and get the hell away from her? I feel like he's already emotionally detaching himself from Paige.

Edited April 26, 2018 by chocolatine

[AntiBeeSpray]

Damn. Elizabeth was a bitch in some of this. She got on my nerves. As for Philip, he was showing Paige that she doesn't have a chance against others who know how to fight. The ones she were up against didn't know how to fight.

[jjj]

10 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I think it's the other way around. Oleg is trying to fly under the radar as much as possible. It's Tatiana who's pissed and wants to get back at him.

That's what I meant -- he knew perfectly well he could not trust Tatiana's "you can trust me, Oleg".  He know why he is there, and that he can have no distractions.  And hey, he has to study for his final exam! 

[Sader87]

OK, Paige is at GW (with Russian parents) and doesn't know the basic facts of WW2? I know it's often portrayed that the American education system downplays the Soviet Union's role in the Great Patriotic War but that wasn't the way I was taught it in the 1980s.

Not buying Elizabeth killing Gronk as easily as she did...maybe if she caught him off guard, maybe.

[Umbelina]

33 minutes ago, jjj said:

Oh, Tatiana, Oleg really has your number. 

Did we know he had done some reporting on her "operation"?  I think she was actually angry, but also trying to make him feel guilty to get information out of him.  Please stay safe, Oleg. 

I really liked Tatiana, and she owes Oleg NOTHING, he did fuck up her career. 

11 minutes ago, AntiBeeSpray said:

Damn. Elizabeth was a bitch in some of this. She got on my nerves. As for Philip, he was showing Paige that she doesn't have a chance against others who know how to fight. The ones she were up against didn't know how to fight.

Anytime Paige is taken down, I'm happy.

I'm also glad Philip did the right thing with Kimmie.  He's all in now, full out traitor.  Wow.

[tennisgurl]

I wont say this show is crap or anything (I am still getting enjoyment out of it, and I am dying to see where it all ends), but we are circling the drains a bit. Elizabeth, Claudia and Paige are such a mess, and I just dont care about the Paige Jennings Spy Academy. I am holding onto it, and I still love this show, but, I think its good that we`re nearing its end date. 

Philip and Oleg could just wrap the show out on their own, their scenes are by far my favorite. Philip has really come a long way, and this was a great episode for him. Telling Paige to screw off, sabotaging the kidnap plot, ending the Kimmie stuff, he`s fully on Over It mode, and its great. But, it also makes me worry about his chances of survival. Philip has always edged around traitor territory, but has kept to the company line enough to avoid trouble. But this? This is big. And he and Liz are starting to already circle each other. 

You know, Elizabeth, it doesn't say much when I can say "at least she didnt kill that sleeping child." and thats as nice as she gets. 

Paige really is just the stupidest, most sheltered kid on the planet. I mean, was she not aware that WWII was...a thing? That the USSR has a really shitty time of it, and that it really sucked, to put it VERY mildly? Thats really news? I mean, I know that American schools tend to downplay what the non US was up to during WWII, but I read in my damn American Girl books about how hard the way was on everyone. Going by that logic, I knew more about the cost of war at 8 than Paige does now! And I was the daughter of teachers in middle America! "You mean, people in wars...like...die?" 

Nice to see Tatiana, even if it might spell danger for Oleg. Now for my weekly "If Oleg dies, I riot" reminder. Dont cross me, show. 

[Umbelina]

Just now, Sader87 said:

OK, Paige is at GW (with Russian parents) and doesn't know the basic facts of WW2? I know it's often portrayed that the American education system downplays the Soviet Union's role in the Great Patriotic War but that wasn't the way I was taught it in the 1980s.

Not buying Elizabeth killing Gronk as easily as she did...maybe if she caught him off guard, maybe.

More than underplayed, it honestly barely exists.  People still think the USA and Britain won the war, to this day, MOST Americans think that, and have no idea about the sacrifices and horror of the Russian side of the war.  Staligrad IS what broke Hitler, and it barely gets a mention.

I wonder if it would have if the USSR didn't take over the Uranium Mines in East Germany and divide the city, thus starting the "cold war" with the west?

Probably not.

[Dev F]

24 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Then again, I can't believe they thought the audience who has been there from the beginning were clamoring for scenes of Claudia, Elizabeth and Paige getting drunk together, the better to teach Junior Spy how to hold her liquor.

That was honestly one of my favorite scenes of the episode. It was also an important scene for the Elizabeth/Paige relationship -- it's where Liz finally stops trying to hold her daughter apart from the work they both do and recognizes the importance of showing her that they're all in the same shit together.

And that's what the whole episode was about, I think -- how you can't hope to triumph on someone else's territory; you have to make your stand when you live, not where they do.

9 minutes ago, mattie0808 said:

Another meaningless scene with Stan's wife. Ok.

The Stan/Renee scene plugs into that same idea, I think. In their previous conversation, he recoiled at the idea of his wife joining him at the FBI. Now, after experiencing the crushing loneliness of Gennadi's single life in an alien country, he's willing to work out a way that she can meet him on his home turf.

[AntiBeeSpray]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I really liked Tatiana, and she owes Oleg NOTHING, he did fuck up her career. 

Anytime Paige is taken down, I'm happy.

I'm also glad Philip did the right thing with Kimmie.  He's all in now, full out traitor.  Wow.

I am too. She's got a long way to go.

So am I. As much as I liked him and Kimmie, it was time for him to leave.

[Umbelina]

Estimates of Russian Deaths in The Great Patriotic War are even higher now.

42 million.  Stalin tried to play down the number of Russian dead according to this.

Quote

In total, according to Ivlev, the Soviet Union had a population of 205 million in 1941 and 169.8 million in 1945. Taking into account the 17.6 million births and natural deaths at the 1941 level, that leaves almost 42 million in war-related losses.

[Sader87]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

More than underplayed, it honestly barely exists.  People still think the USA and Britain won the war, to this day, MOST Americans think that, and have no idea about the sacrifices and horror of the Russian side of the war.  Staligrad IS what broke Hitler, and it barely gets a mention.

This is how WW2 is taught in Massachusetts' public high schools today.....the Soviet role in the war is given due justice....just saying.

[CaliCheeseSucks]

8 minutes ago, Sader87 said:

OK, Paige is at GW (with Russian parents) and doesn't know the basic facts of WW2? I know it's often portrayed that the American education system downplays the Soviet Union's role in the Great Patriotic War but that wasn't the way I was taught it in the 1980s.

 

The Elliott School Of International Affairs at GW is highly regarded. I would have expected that by having her attend GW, it would have been part and parcel with getting her into Elliott's program and on that path to a career post in government/international relations/diplomacy. But not only isn't she doing that, they keep revealing her as so dumb, it boggles the mind that she was accepted into any university with a halfway competitive admissions process. 

[Irlandesa]

I kind of like that the missions have become a bit messy and cracks are starting to form.  That was true of communism at that time so I guess it's symbolic. 

I also liked Paige As A Spy story in this episode.  I even liked her pushing back at Elizabeth because I've been dying for someone to do that for a few episodes but the best scene was Phillip showing her how easy it was for him to flip the script on her when fighting without even breaking a sweat.  No, Paige doesn't fully get it but that's on both Elizabeth and even Phillip.  When Paige said she likes what she does, like Elizabeth, it would have been a good time to point out that the suicide she thought was a suicide was not a suicide.  They're protecting her from the full truth and hoping she'll just follow demands.  But Paige isn't Elizabeth.  Unlike her mother, she wasn't raised to be a soldier and to follow orders.  She's not acting out of patriotism.  I think she's acting out of a sense of empowerment and connection to her mother.  That makes her unpredictable.

And I do think seeing how Paige is being brought into it is playing a part into Phillip going rogue. 

The kid whose parents were kid did a good horrified look.  I wonder if Agent Hill seeing Elizabeth's face will come back to haunt her.  He seemed to be a little wary of her. 

13 minutes ago, Sader87 said:

This is how WW2 is taught in Massachusetts' public high schools today.....the Soviet role in the war is given due justice....just saying.

It's mentioned in history books and to what extent depends on the book used.  But when Paige likely learned about it, she didn't know her parents were Russian.  Annually, the US doesn't celebrate Russia's losses in the war.  And while she is in college, I don't get the sense that studying is really why she's there.  Isn't it just part of her cover?

[Umbelina]

24 minutes ago, Sader87 said:

This is how WW2 is taught in Massachusetts' public high schools today.....the Soviet role in the war is given due justice....just saying.

I'm glad to hear it. 

It certainly wasn't when I was in school, at best, it got a passing mention. Or dates of battles to memorize, but none of the passion or reality of the human lives.

It wasn't until this summer that I completely delved into actual situations and conditions in WWII Russia, I was honestly shocked at how much I didn't know.  I thought I knew quite a bit about that war, but realized quickly that most of my previous focus had been about the European and Japanese sides of the war, and of course, of the Concentration Camps in Germany.  Of course I heard about the horrors of "The Eastern Front" but that was mostly from Germany's side of things.

It was eye opening, and as someone who actually studied previous Russian wars, kind of shocking that, even though I love history, I was never really spurred to look into the Russian side of WWII, let alone know why they called it The Great Patriotic War.  I certainly never learned about the The Siege of Leningrad., or what that meant in reality, the absolute horror of their lives cut off from all supplies, and bombed daily for 871 days. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, PreviouslyTV said:

Witness relocation is the least of Gennadi and Sofia's problems in our latest EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP!

View the full article

I'm using Amazon to watch, so I really don't get to see the episode with everyone else.

Just a shout out to you guys, because reading your recaps is almost like watching the show.  They are very clear and detailed, and I really appreciate them.

I'm a recap junkie anyway, love to read other people's opinions, but yours are always my first stop, because you cover what actually happens, with wit and opinion as part of that.

[jjj]

She did not want to kill Mrs. Teacup -- Elizabeth was heading back to the window when he lumbered into the kitchen.  I forget if Claudia said they both had to die.  I know Gannady was the PR problem they wanted to eliminate. (I still say that was a bogus reason.  They did not kill the very high-profile ballet dancers that defected.) 

[BradandJanet]

I studied Russian in high school and college--never got any good with it--but read a lot of literature and non-fiction. Harrison Salisbury's The 900 Days, from the late 60's, about the siege of Stalingrad left such a mark on me, I still count it very high in my war-related reading list. 

[sistermagpie]

My new nickname for Elizabeth, via Bannon, is Gettysburg. Poor Ilya's going to have to sit by the well a long time after this night. The FBI sure looks bad. Why call it a safe house when it's that easy to find, break in and murder everyone?

1 hour ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

Then again, I can't believe they thought the audience who has been there from the beginning were clamoring for scenes of Claudia, Elizabeth and Paige getting drunk together, the better to teach Junior Spy how to hold her liquor.

 

38 minutes ago, Dev F said:

That was honestly one of my favorite scenes of the episode. It was also an important scene for the Elizabeth/Paige relationship -- it's where Liz finally stops trying to hold her daughter apart from the work they both do and recognizes the importance of showing her that they're all in the same shit together.

Wow, I didn't see that at all. I saw Elizabeth and Claudia continuing to tell stories about the old country, which is their favorite topic. They didn't seem to all be in any shit at all. Especially Paige who's been betraying her country for the USSR for how long now? And is just now learning the most rudimentary history of it? It's not like when Paige asked Elizabeth about having sex she started talking about her KGB training and the last old guy she slept with to get the seating plan for lunch on Day 3 at the summit or something. I think the scene was supposed to be a crowd pleaser because badass Granny and Elizabeth are drunk and talking about awkward sex.

I really still don't get why I need to spend all this time with Paige unless it's leading up to her being the one to blow everything up or some big reckoning where Elizabeth realizes what a bad idea this was. Once again in this ep Paige takes the stuff she's learning as a spy and uses it to do something that satisfies her as Paige Jennings in her real life. I have no sympathy for the guy she hit but there was zero reason to hit him. The second guy wasn't even fighting her. Was the idea that she was just mad at her mother not being thrilled about her personal honeypotting of a random intern so she went out to find another guy and then got mad?

Then when she comes over the house and demands to spar as if *she's* the one who was wronged and Elizabeth gives her actual good feedback about how bad what she did was she reacts the same as always, by getting angry, saying she "gets it" and having a diva fit. Like the entire Cold War just exists so she can continue to fight and make up with her mom. (My favorite moment was Philip just silently wincing at Paige describing what she did.) Oh, and of course the usual arrogant, "Duh! Mom!" solution where she just doesn't go to that bar again. How many do-overs does Paige get? Sure Philip basically committed treason but Paige is still more of a menace. (Luckily the Kimmy plan was about Mexico City so maybe Elizabeth can't just report it.)

I was hoping Philip would leave Paige unconscious in a heap at the end of their fight after her ridiculous reference to "What Mom and I do" as if Philip isn't still in this crap and hadn't done it for decades after he was Paige's age. Yeah, I didn't find her, Claudia or Elizabeth cute together. It seemed actually like by turning the whole thing into a silly "lesson" about coating your stomach before drinking Elizabeth once again rewarded Paige for her behavior and glossed over the real issue. Like suddenly it's about Paige having "a clear head" and that will fix the problem. It's not about Paige just still not understanding what it means to be a traitor or a spy.

Speaking of traitors, go Philip and Oleg. Oleg talked about "something rotten" in the KGB and it really feels like the two of them are somehow cleaner heroes. They stand in such contrast to the three looking to the past and following orders, the way they're trying to do the right thing even knowing that they aren't working with even the net that Elizabeth is. Elizabeth who's now barely bothering to hide that she gave Philip sex to get him to kidnap Kimmy. He was wearing a white tee-shirt in that scene and it reminded me of the one he was wearing in the flashback to when Elizabeth announces they're going to have sex for the first time. Not sure if that was intentional but it sure works. Still, remembering what that jerk said to Paige about how she "wasn't even that hot" makes me think how Elizabeth's power, maybe like that of the old guard in the USSR, is slipping. She's no longer able to order people to hop-to. Paige is too arrogant and complacent and Philip might still love her but he sees more important things than trying to get her to love him. She can no longer just convince him that it's worth it on the basis of national security or her personally wanting it.

Funny that sex with Kimmy was in the end rather anti-climactic (for me--probably not for Kimmy. At least I hope not!). Philip is still a sex worker and can have sex with a consenting young woman. Elizabeth's kidnap plan sounded like it would probably go about as well as the plan with Gaad in Thailand. Seriously, how would that plan not simply end the summit? You're kidnapping the daughter of the Head of the Soviet Division and demanding info on what he's doing at the summit? It would be a huge international incident. It's dumb.

I guess it's also just frustrating to me that I'm thrilled with all the scenes about Oleg and Philip but instead the show keeps giving me Elizabeth, Paige and Claudia bonding instead. Not only do I not enjoy them as much, they've already been spotlighted throughout the show. I think I now know more about Claudia's backstory than Philip's.

I guess the other thing is that the Oleg and Philip stuff is almost undercut when you've got all this focus on Elizabeth and Paige. Because Elizabeth's running around doing all this crazy stuff wearing 12 wigs and episode and slaughtering people left and right (Gettysburg!) and just trying again when it doesn't work. And Paige is using spycraft for girlpower and punching guys out in bars like she's in the X-Men. It's hard to go from those things to Oleg and now probably Philip too being genuinely vulnerable as *spies.* That is, as two men working against a powerful arm of a totalitarian government who will execute them if they're caught. They're also trying to find out information where we understand why it's important and what it would mean and even communicating with each other is dangerous and uncertain--yet it seems like they would have way more interesting conversations.

Edited April 26, 2018 by sistermagpie

[Bannon]

30 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

More than underplayed, it honestly barely exists.  People still think the USA and Britain won the war, to this day, MOST Americans think that, and have no idea about the sacrifices and horror of the Russian side of the war.  Staligrad IS what broke Hitler, and it barely gets a mention.

I wonder if it would have if the USSR didn't take over the Uranium Mines in East Germany and divide the city, thus starting the "cold war" with the west?

Probably not.

Americans aren't quite as ignorant as is commonly supposed, relative to other countries....

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/05/01/Britain-America-disagree-who-did-more-beat-nazis/

...and, truth be told, "Which enemy of the Nazis lost the most lives in WWII?" is not anywhere close to synonymous with "Which enemy of the Nazis did the most to defeat the Nazis?". WWII may be the most complex event in human history, so any broad question invites an answer that obscures more than what is desirable. It is true, however, that absent American material contributions to the Soviet Union, the German military likely would have prevailed in the east. 

[Bannon]

36 minutes ago, CaliCheeseSucks said:

The Elliott School Of International Affairs at GW is highly regarded. I would have expected that by having her attend GW, it would have been part and parcel with getting her into Elliott's program and on that path to a career post in government/international relations/diplomacy. But not only isn't she doing that, they keep revealing her as so dumb, it boggles the mind that she was accepted into any university with a halfway competitive admissions process. 

To be blunt, this is yet more crappy writing. It also boggles the mind that so many television writers think that stupid characters are good for holding the interest of the audience.

[Umbelina]

WHY didn't Mr. and Mrs. Teacup and their CHILD not have FBI guards present when Elizabeth broke in?

Honestly that's ridiculous.  Two nervous and unpredictable Russians and a child UNGUARDED?  To quote June in The Handmaid's Tale, "What in the actual FUCK?"

By the way, if you wondered where all of The American's incredible tension went?  I think The Handmaid's Tale got it all, so if you liked that, I highly recommend watching it.  Compared to this season and last years?  That show makes The American's look like a sit com.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

WHY didn't Mr. and Mrs. Teacup and their CHILD not have FBI guards present when Elizabeth broke in?

Honestly that's ridiculous.  Two nervous and unpredictable Russians and a child UNGUARDED?  To quote June in The Handmaid's Tale, "What in the actual FUCK?"

By the way, if you wondered where all of The American's incredible tension went?  I think The Handmaid's Tale got it all, so if you liked that, I highly recommend watching it.  Compared to this season and last years?  That show makes The American's look like a sit com.

It's worse than that. Liz has been on a slaughter spree with obvious national security implications for weeks now, and yet the FBI gets conveniently stupid enough to leave two defectors unguarded. 

If the writers don't care, why should the audience? I think I'm putting this on the hate-watch list, along with Homeland. The acting on The Americans is better, however.

[skippylou]

Might Kimmie mention to her father the bizarre warning she got from a friend?  That would set off all of his alarm bells.  The KGB "inside guy" might hear about it and the KGB would surely put out a contract on Phillip.  They would try to make it look accidental so as to not freak out Paige.   Could they actually ask Elizabeth to do it?  Hopefully, Phillip survives the attempt, maybe grabs up Henry and heads for an FBI office far from DC.   F the KGB, F Elizabeth, F the travel agency and lives happily ever after in Witness Protection.  

[Dev F]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Wow, I didn't see that at all. I saw Elizabeth and Claudia continuing to tell stories about the old country, which is their favorite topic. They didn't seem to all be in any shit at all.

I mean, they were teaching her tradecraft to help her keep her head in sexual situations, and sharing awkward stories about trading sexual favors to survive and trying to get laid in communal housing. It was hardly Sex and the City-type girl talk.

And while "bleak stories about the old country" has always been Claudia's favorite topic with Paige, up till now Elizabeth has been pretty hesitant to join in. Even at the beginning of this episode, Liz mostly just sits there and lets Claudia tell the story of the Great Patriotic War, until Paige's ignorance of the topic gets her worked up. So it's significant, I think, that she ends the episode by opening up to Paige about her own awkward sexy-times, especially since sex is the area she's been most hesitant to engage with her daughter about.

Quote

I think the scene was supposed to be a crowd pleaser because badass Granny and Elizabeth are drunk and talking about awkward sex.

Considering the show's rigorous adherence to its episodic themes, such that it's willing to forgo satisfying thriller beats or even narrative logic for the sake of thematic coherence, I think it's highly unlikely that the writers decided to include this one scene just to be crowd-pleasing. Indeed, I'd be vastly more apt to believe that I'm mistaken about what the scene means thematically than that it doesn't mean anything at all. To me the theme o' the week is just such a fundamental element of the series that I don't even question it, any more than I would question whether Philip and Elizabeth are meant to be the main characters in this episode.

[jjj]

26 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

WHY didn't Mr. and Mrs. Teacup and their CHILD not have FBI guards present when Elizabeth broke in?

Honestly that's ridiculous.  Two nervous and unpredictable Russians and a child UNGUARDED? 

And there should have been two agents keeping watch:  whoever was on duty assigned to Gannady, and the one watching Sofia.  They would not have let her go wandering around. 

Whoever mentioned Agent Gaad, above -- I wonder if there will ever be resolution to that?  There were hints that we would learn more a season or two back, then crickets.  So, another thread probably lost in the rush to the finish line. 

[Bannon]

Also, Holly Taylor is a terrible actor, even allowing for the bad writing.

[MisterBluxom]

When I Google "how many Russians were killed in WW2", there seems to be many different estimates. Some people estimate a total of 20 million. But that includes both civilians and military.

But I get the idea that many Russians and many Russian sympathizers believe they did almost all the work to defeat the Nazis and the Americans only contributed a very small effort. When I heard Elizabeth and her handler express that sentiment to Paige, I really wanted to make a post or tell them that is not the real truth.

I wasn't there, but my understanding is that Stalin was really responsible for most of the Russian deaths. If not for a few really big blunders on his part, there is no reason so many Russians would have been killed.

First and foremost, during the 1930s he decided that he couldn't trust most of the Army's higher officers and so he removed most of them from power. He either had them executed or exiled to Siberian Gulags. That is my understanding of what happened. But that was only part of the problem. The other part was that he just left the Army decimated without providing for any replacements. The Red Army had many soldiers, but almost no high command. They were just sitting ducks when attacked by the Nazis.

The second big blunder Stalin made was that secret treaty he agreed to with the Nazis. He agreed to let them attack Poland and the two major countries would then divide Poland in two and each would take over half of Poland. But when the Nazis showed their true intent and invaded Russia, Stalin went into a panic and essentially hid in his residence and waited for a few weeks. He expected the KGB would come and arrest him. But during that time, the Red Army was left without any leadership and the Nazis just slaughtered them. They were able to kill as many of their soldiers as they had bullets. I believe Stalin was responsible for that entire mess and I would guess about 10 million Russians were slaughtered before the Red army ever got organized and started to fight back.

I have more to say. But I better stop there. I just wanted to make the point the reason so many Russians died was almost entirely due to Stalin's incompetence and idiocy. I don't believe for one second the Americans somehow cheated the Russians or dishonestly got them to sacrifice millions of their people while the Americans only contributed a miniscule number of dead. That POV just burns me up. It's just not true.

Edited April 26, 2018 by MissBluxom

[NitneLiun]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

More than underplayed, it honestly barely exists.  People still think the USA and Britain won the war, to this day, MOST Americans think that, and have no idea about the sacrifices and horror of the Russian side of the war.  Staligrad IS what broke Hitler, and it barely gets a mention.

I wonder if it would have if the USSR didn't take over the Uranium Mines in East Germany and divide the city, thus starting the "cold war" with the west?

Probably not.

Sorry, but I think you are way off base here.  It is not uncommon to see movies about the Soviet side of the war here. I can remember even in grade school being taught about the number of Soviets who were killed in the war.

The truth is that it is the Russians who downplay the role of the West in the war. They never even mention the Pacific war, which they sat out. They never mention how much food and military equipment they received from the West, particularly the U.S. (enough to equip 80% of Allied forces in Western Europe.  They also never mention the massive effort made by the United States in winning the naval war in the North Atlantic, North Sea, Baltic Sea and Mediterranean Sea, South Pacific and North Pacific.  They never mention that it was largely the U.S. Army Air Corps that destroyed the Luftwaffe in the tactical and strategic air campaigns.  North Africa, Sicily, Italy, the Asian subcontinent and Pacific were  not meaningless sideshows. 

The Soviet Union fought a one-front ground war that they were able to fight largely because of American planes, tanks and  trucks that were given to the USSR (for which repayment has never been received). 

Oh, they also never mention that until June of 1941, the USSR was an ally of Nazi Germany and invaded Poland along with Germany. 

[jjj]

When Philip walked up to the door without looking through the peephole, I was amazed -- he lives in the world of paranoia, and at that moment was committed to going abroad and kidnapping/drugging a 20-year-old.  Yet, he breezily opens his door without checking. 

[CaliCheeseSucks]

25 minutes ago, jjj said:

Whoever mentioned Agent Gaad, above -- I wonder if there will ever be resolution to that?  There were hints that we would learn more a season or two back, then crickets.  So, another thread probably lost in the rush to the finish line. 

It honestly angers me that it's just been dropped. He was an important supporting character for four seasons, one in a critical role. The matter of his death, particularly for someone in the sensitive intelligence position he was in, just doesn't seem like one which would be completely insignificant in the long run. Then they cast Peter Jacobsen as Gaad's successor and I thought, "Well, they must have something in mind since they put a recognizable face in this role." Nope, nothing.

Honestly, they've shown more concern for fan-servicing mail robot appearances/references than following up on the people and story-lines that we invested our time in watching. 

Edited April 26, 2018 by CaliCheeseSucks

[Erin9]

This may have been Philip’s finest hour. So far. 

Elizabeth’s plan was bad and reeked of desperation. And Philip knew it. I was proud of Philip for doing right by Kimmie. That was amazing. And, really, Philip is already dead via the hardliners if they find out he’s helping Oleg. What Elizabeth wants via the Kimmie op is all about The Summit going HER way ( ie the hardliners) which is not Philip and Oleg’s. Elizabeth will explode though when she finds out.....

I’m semi impressed Elizabeth admitted Paige might not be cut out for this. Not that it’s keeping her from training her anyway. Now they’ve added drinking and sex  to the agenda. Though I do believe Elizabeth’s story was all a lie. 

I don’t think Paige gets much of anything. I liked her snapping at Elizabeth. It was realistic that her lectures would wear thin. But I don’t think she truly gets how stupid she was drawing attention to herself like that. 

Philip getting Paige to spar with him was awesome. Without even putting in real effort, she was completely outmatched. That’s what I hoped for. Loved his tone when he said he wanted to see what she’d learned....and they’d do it without pads. Real world style. When he mumbled not bad, he may well have said not good. That he just left after that said more than any words could have. I guess it’s safe to say Elizabeth’s training has lacked there too. 

I’m not sure Paige could have sounded more clueless when she explained to Philip that unlike him she and Elizabeth are “into it.” Condescending too. Again- she has no idea what this life is. Not really. And she certainly has no idea why Philip really quit. Maybe he should tell her though. Still he’s already pushing her to see reality more than Elizabeth has in 3 years. Though their ideas of reality would differ. 

Elizabeth sure was cold. Sex with Philip was all about getting him to sleep with Kimmie with a nice guilt trip of how she hasn’t asked anything of him. My favorite part has to be when she told him Paige was none of his business. To her credit, she figured out that was too much. 

Gotta love how Claudia and Elizabeth continue to dwell on the past, rather than move forward. 

[jjj]

Do you suppose Mark Harmon is home watching "The Americans," and suddenly is amazed to see himself on the screen?  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx34pdYatng

Edited April 26, 2018 by jjj