S01.E03: Secrets and Lies

[CooperTV]

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The murder of a young man who recently left his family’s religious community leads Dylan and Lizzie to a series of possible suspects, including a short-tempered photographer and a mysterious girl with amnesia. Also, Lizzie’s younger sister, Katie, unexpectedly drops by for a visit.

Promos

[CoyoteBlue]

Hey, it looks like I'll get to see more than 20 minutes of an episode for a change! How novel.

[treeofdreams]

That "Amish/Amish type boy takes time off from the community to learn piano" was such a ripoff from another show, right down to showing the parents the video of him playing the piano on the laptop - including "God won't mind".  Now if I could just remember which of the many detective teams it was...

[LvHmBirth]

52 minutes ago, treeofdreams said:

That "Amish/Amish type boy takes time off from the community to learn piano" was such a ripoff from another show, right down to showing the parents the video of him playing the piano on the laptop - including "God won't mind".  Now if I could just remember which of the many detective teams it was...

I had this same thought! I had to google it; it was driving me crazy. It was Bones.

[preeya]

Third one - not a charm. I'm out.

[Lady Calypso]

I think they need something deeper to hook people in to this show, because the leads are working; it's the premise of the show that isn't quite there. It's just a typical bland cop show with a quirky partner. It's a real shame. I don't hate this show, but I don't love it either. Alan Cumming isn't enough to hook me into watching this entire season, let alone possible multiple seasons. 

Though I just realized this morning that there was no Whoopi or Naveen characters this time around and I didn't miss them one bit. 

I have definitely seen this episode before in other shows. I knew it was the amnesia girl, so there was zero surprise there (not to mention that actress was goddamn awful). I've also seen the troubled little sister episode multiple times. 

I just need something else to hook me with this show. Dylan and his husband aren't quite enough for me right now. However, I think the show is still getting really good ratings, so it could easily be renewed for a second season. 

[possibilities]

I'm shocked by how weak the writing is. I expected it to be a procedural, but not soooo shallowly written. Even Elementary, which this basically is the reincarnation of, is a little deeper. The acting/direction is also so thin, and I know for a fact AC can do better.

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think they need something deeper to hook people in to this show, because the leads are working; it's the premise of the show that isn't quite there. It's just a typical bland cop show with a quirky partner. It's a real shame. I don't hate this show, but I don't love it either. Alan Cumming isn't enough to hook me into watching this entire season, let alone possible multiple seasons.

I just need something else to hook me with this show. Dylan and his husband aren't quite enough for me right now. However, I think the show is still getting really good ratings, so it could easily be renewed for a second season. 

I seriously love him, so he'll keep me going for awhile. In any case, this is a show I record to exercise to - and it works well enough for that. My DVR's stacked with shows I recorded for exercise and go "eh" when I start up.

Plus I really liked the husband dynamic in this episode, and the nugget of backstory. But I do agree, it could use some bumping up. It is fairly cerebral despite the slit throats and all. It needs some jeopardy and/or consequences for the leads. But please, no season long big bad.

[Trey]

13 hours ago, LvHmBirth said:

I had this same thought! I had to google it; it was driving me crazy. It was Bones.

Thank you!! I remembered that plotline too but couldn't remember which show it was on.  Was thinking it was L&O: Criminial Intent but that didn't feel quite right - and it turns out it was Bones.

 

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Though I just realized this morning that there was no Whoopi or Naveen characters this time around and I didn't miss them one bit. 

I think Naveen was there, although just briefly.

There was too much conversation going in the room I was in and I missed most of the ending, so could someone tell me Amber/Nikki's reasons for the killings?

Edited April 2, 2018 by Trey

[izabella]

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Alan Cumming isn't enough to hook me into watching this entire season, let alone possible multiple seasons. 

I kinda like this show.  But I'd much rather watch a show where Cumming is a professor and the show is focused on goings on at the university.  Maybe I'm just tired of law and order, crime dramas.  Try something else, TV!  The world is not just about police, fire, law, and medical!

Edited April 2, 2018 by izabella

[treeofdreams]

This show is just a lot of other shows and plotlines stitched together.  Even the main theme, which was done on Perception with the Will and Grace actor (name?), only it is psychology rather than biology.

Perhaps we are just too overloaded with crime dramas, so we are jaded and really need something fresh and original.  This is not it.

[biakbiak]

Too many light haired women with long hair!

Edited April 2, 2018 by biakbiak

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, Trey said:

There was too much conversation going in the room I was in and I missed most of the ending, so could someone tell me Amber/Nikki's reasons for the killings?

I don't remember there being any - other than she felt like it. Because....sociopath.

[Trey]

32 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't remember there being any - other than she felt like it. Because....sociopath.

Okay, thank you.  Just plain nuts, then.

[rhys]

Did Lizzie's lieutenant say that fingerprints are difficult to get from paper? I thought they were somewhat easy to get from paper. Any CSI type folks here?

[biakbiak]

Creator apologizes to Bones for similarities between the two episodes.

[TheOtherOne]

The credited writer, Chris Ambrose, worked on Bones as well, though in the 2nd and 3rd seasons. By the time they did the Amish episode in the 5th season, he'd moved on and was in his second season on Law & Order:

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0024386/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

Would he have really been watching his old show after he left it, then brazenly have stolen the plot years later? Did someone else in the writer's room pitch it, and he just happened to be the one assigned to write it? Was it a story they'd discussed doing in the second and third seasons when he was around, but didn't get around to until after he left, and, intentionally or unintentionally, he pitched it to this show? Would be fascinating to see what happened, though unlikely we'll get a straight answer. The showrunner's statement is more than I would have expected.

[treeofdreams]

For a new show trying to get established, this is a bad start.  Unfortunately, it was not only that plot that was recycled, but so many other elements of the story as well, as others have mentioned above.

If you are going to create another detective show, people, at least give us SOMETHING original.

[LisaM]

I saw the article today about Bones. Was it the Bones episode where the mother of the dead child watches the video -- or was that another show? I know I have seen that scene before but can't recall which show it was in. 

I want to like this show but agree with others above that something is missing. 

[Accidental Martyr]

I know it gets used a lot in shows like this, but those instant DNA tests are awesome! ;)

[treeofdreams]

Those articles are unsatisfying.  I can understand two similar plotlines.  But the details were too much the same.  Showing the video to the parents on the laptop, and when they started to object because their faith does not allow the technology, saying "God won't mind"?  Too close.

[shapeshifter]

On 4/2/2018 at 11:00 PM, treeofdreams said:

Those articles are unsatisfying.  I can understand two similar plotlines.  But the details were too much the same.  Showing the video to the parents on the laptop, and when they started to object because their faith does not allow the technology, saying "God won't mind"?  Too close.

Agreed. The Bones episode was written by Karine Rosenthal, who was not credited for Instinct's "Secrets and Lies." This is plagiarism. 

When they showed the black and white Popsicle sticks and asked what they could be, I immediately chirped at my screen, "Piano keys!" But, alas, this was not an episode of Jeopardy, and the rest of that scene was ruined for me, not only because I knew the reveal of the piano prodigy Amish kid, but because I couldn't believe they were so completely ripping off a script.

Tip to plagiarizers: Don't rip a script that has been shown in syndication many times all over the world on various stations.

And wasn't the fake amnesiac sociopath borrowed from L&O: SVU?

 

ETA from Plagiarism Today (by Jonathan Bailey https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2018/04/03/did-instinct-plagiarize-bones):

Quote

. . .
In the end, the only thing that’s clear is that Instinct copied from Bones and, regardless of how it happened or who is responsible for the original plagiarism, it raises questions about the whole show and its process for getting ideas on screen.
. . .

I'm glad he included the Helen Keller cryptomnesia defense (which I too considered) and shot it down:

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This story doesn’t follow the pattern of cryptonmnesia nor does it follow the pattern of what we expect from a plagiarist. Either something very unlikely happened (which is possible) or there is information we don’t have, such as whether an uncredited author worked on this episode.

--the bolded part is what I consider most likely--perhaps an intern (maybe even placed via nepotism or as a favor to someone's uncle) who thought this was an acceptable way of generating work product--perhaps they skated through college this way.

Edited April 4, 2018 by shapeshifter

[Ohmo]

17 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

whether an uncredited author worked on this episode.

Well, if that happened, and I were Christopher Ambrose (the "credited" writer of the Instinct episode,) I'd want someone's head..  I don't know if I buy that though.  Christopher Ambrose worked on Bones.  I have a very difficult time believing that he had absolutely no awareness of the Bones episode even if he didn't write it.  The 'intern" theory seems very fishy to me.  The intern is just going to happen to steal from a show on which Ambrose happened to work?  How would an intern know that?  I think it's far more likely that Ambrose himself did the stealing...and now I want to know what else he could have possibly claimed as his own.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Ohmo

[Ohmo]

Found this on Reddit.  Someone made a video that lined up the material from Bones and Instinct.  The similarities are pretty startling when you see them side-by-side.  No way this was accidental copying.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iz2sc474f2olcnq/Copy of bones instinct -.mp4?dl=0

[shapeshifter]

48 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Found this on Reddit.  Someone made a video that lined up the material from Bones and Instinct.  The similarities are pretty startling when you see them side-by-side.  No way this was accidental copying.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/iz2sc474f2olcnq/Copy of bones instinct -.mp4?dl=0

Wow. I hope they show that video to get some sort of justice and that the guy who spliced together the video (David Velazco?) gets some sort of remuneration for his efforts.

Karine Rosenthal is credited with writing both the original Bones scripts "The Plain in the Prodigy" and "The Con Man in the Meth Lab" from which parts were pretty much copied and pasted (along with stage directions, etc.) into the Instinct script "Secrets and Lies." She also is credited with and takes credit for the, Bones wedding episode (http://www.givememyremote.com/remote/2013/10/22/bones-karine-rosenthal-on-writing-the-booth-and-brennan-wedding-episode-the-woman-in-white), which, IMO, is arguably one of the best written episodes of the later seasons of Bones.

So maybe Christopher Ambrose had those scripts in his files and thought they were never used? Still plagiarism. I suppose if he thought that he had written them himself, then, at best, it's accidental plagiarism.

[Ohmo]

Here's the Reddit thread if anyone's interested in more discussion on this situation.

https://www.reddit.com/r/television/comments/89qrgf/new_cbs_procedural_instinct_copypasted_scenes/?limit=500

There's also this interesting tidbit of news from TV Guide.

Quote

(For all you conspiracy nuts out there, it should be noted that the Instinct episode in question is not available on CBS All Access.)

The Video Evidence That Instinct Ripped Off Bones Is Damning

[Neurochick]

On April 2, 2018 at 8:00 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I think they need something deeper to hook people in to this show, because the leads are working; it's the premise of the show that isn't quite there. It's just a typical bland cop show with a quirky partner. It's a real shame. I don't hate this show, but I don't love it either. Alan Cumming isn't enough to hook me into watching this entire season, let alone possible multiple seasons. 

Though I just realized this morning that there was no Whoopi or Naveen characters this time around and I didn't miss them one bit. 

I have definitely seen this episode before in other shows. I knew it was the amnesia girl, so there was zero surprise there (not to mention that actress was goddamn awful). I've also seen the troubled little sister episode multiple times. 

I just need something else to hook me with this show. Dylan and his husband aren't quite enough for me right now. However, I think the show is still getting really good ratings, so it could easily be renewed for a second season. 

Here's what I think.  This show is for people who've never seen Castle (which I never watched) or Bones (also never watched) or Elementary.  There are many people out here who've never seen either of those shows.  I have realized that there are shows out here that just aren't meant for me, they're meant for people who don't know the tropes and those people do exist.

[Former Nun]

4 hours ago, Neurochick said:

 I have realized that there are shows out here that just aren't meant for me, they're meant for people who don't know the tropes and those people do exist.

I know some who wouldn't recognize a trope even when explained and explained.   I know I'm critical and I expect too much.   There are so many excellent writers and directors; I don't know why The Powers That Be  (my own capitalization) are so lazy.

[nx74defiant]

I thought the piano player was better on Bones.

Boy this show really has nothing new for us does it?

Doing this, this early is really bad. I'm out.

[shapeshifter]

On April 8, 2018 at 1:47 PM, nx74defiant said:

I thought the piano player was better on Bones.

Definitely.

 

Some of the places where the video (showing the plagiarized scenes side by side) has been posted have "disappeared," but this one claims it has been "mirrored for posterity": https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=efjr_1522870893

[Mawmooney]

I love me some Alan cumming so I wanna love this and I do think the writing is getting better (the pilot was painful) - here's hoping it keeps  going uphill. 

[shapeshifter]

10 hours ago, Mawmooney said:

I love me some Alan cumming so I wanna love this and I do think the writing is getting better (the pilot was painful) - here's hoping it keeps  going uphill. 

I wouldn't judge the quality of the writing on this episode since most of it was not written by anyone who is being paid to write for this show (see comments and links upthread by myself and others).

ETA: Or maybe you were just kidding, @Mawmooney?

Edited April 17, 2018 by shapeshifter

[kassygreene]

Shhhhh.  Be vewy vewy quiet, but Secrets & Lies is now available on the CBS website.  If you have All Access, it will be up for awhile, if you don't it may be expiring this weekend.  Or not, the expiration dates on this show are weird.