S06.E02: Tchaikovsky

[Sarah 103]

4 hours ago, jjj said:

Did Paige actually refer to filmstrips?  I'd be so surprised if GWU was showing filmstrips in the later 1980s. 

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I mentioned film strips. I was referring to Claudia "introducing" Tchaikovsky to Paige and saying that he's such a standard, child-friendly composer that Paige could very easily have learned about him in elementary school, which at her age would still have had filmstrips. (I'm almost exactly Paige's age so to me the whole idea called up an image of that.)

No, @sistermagpie did and since I had never heard of them before, I decided to ask. It wasn't mentioned in the episode. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Sarah 103

[Umbelina]

Holy crap!

I just realized that Stan is probably going to tell Renee Oleg is in town.  I hope he doesn't tell her the rest of their history.

 

Don't hurt Oleg writers!

[Sarah 103]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Holy crap!

I just realized that Stan is probably going to tell Renee Oleg is in town.  I hope he doesn't tell her the rest of their history.

 

Don't hurt Oleg writers!

If they kill off Oleg I will be furious. I will yell at my TV and vent like crazy on here. 

[jjj]

11 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Holy crap!

I just realized that Stan is probably going to tell Renee Oleg is in town.  I hope he doesn't tell her the rest of their history.

 

Don't hurt Oleg writers!

I don't think he would say much.  Maybe that an old colleague is back in town, but no back story.  [Of course, according to my theory, she will signal the Kremlin, they will figure it out, and all will be known and Oleg will be toast served up with Black Sea Beluga caviar.  In this case, I hope I am utterly wrong!]  

[Umbelina]

I dunno, it sounds like Renee gets told quite a bit.  She knows about the couple, with the marriage in trouble, that Stan works on with Aderholt, which is currently Stan's ONLY spy op.

[Shriekingeel]

11 hours ago, benteen said:

 

13 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Fun Fact:  In 1987, Aldrich Ames (already a 25+ year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency), had already been spying for the KGB for 2 years (arrested in 1994) 

FBI agent Robert Hansen had already begun spying for Russia as well as during this time (started in 1986 and arrested in 2001).

 

Like Alger Hiss, Hanssen was not a KGB asset but rather an asset of Soviet military intelligence, the GRU. I wondered if the show might go into a KGB/GRU rivalry, but they never did. 

[AllyB]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

3 year time jump and a mostly wasted season last year.

I feel quite angry about this. Last season was ridiculously glacial to the point that my favourite show was a disappointing chore most weeks. Character storylines went off on disappointing tangents, favourite side characters disappeared completely, boring new characters took up lots of time for no pay off. It was the absolute definition of treading water. And why? Tonnes of storyline was blown past in the time jump. Why couldn't we have experienced the engaging, character driven stories that must have occurred between season 5 and 6 instead of what we did get for season 5? 

I'm glad the show is back on track but my trust has been broken (though that largely happened early in S4 when the Jennings decided to work Pastor Tim instead of just killing him and dealing with that fallout). Instead of anticipating an amazing last season, I'm wary of it and no matter how good it turns out to be, I'm not sure it will wipe out the disappointment of having a really boring penultimate season followed by a massive time jump into the final.

[teddysmom]

9 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

If they kill off Oleg I will be furious. I will yell at my TV and vent like crazy on here. 

He's on Homeland now, and he is one bad dude. He's basically a one man shit stirrer for the InfoWars crowd. 

[lucindabelle]

Party of one, but I’m finding this season ridiculous. The happy exposition guy in the bookstore was just silly. How many detailed covers are we supposed to believe she has? Even in the 80s academics were not quite that gullible. Academics have records and books published

 

Also, Elisabeth seems to have no redeeming characteristics whatsoever. Which makes her rather on interesting to me.

 

Agree that the rush to show travel agents is ending is premature. I remember when I first became aware of the web and it was not until the early 90s and even in the mid 90s my boss at the theater for which I worked didn’t see the point to having a website.

 

No suspense at all when Elizabeth was facing the guy who is going to shoot her because all I could think of is that while elizabeth could die the season she’s not going to die in episode two so that was a waste of time.

 

I hope it picks up soon. I remember really like this one the show began, but it’s hard not to feel it’s just completely gone off the rails.

[Clanstarling]

On 4/4/2018 at 8:02 PM, dubbel zout said:

Elizabeth is telling Paige the world is complicated and not black and white? Alrighty then.

Says the woman who sees everything in black and white (maybe she'll get some insight from the black and white drawings of her mark's dying wife)

 

On 4/4/2018 at 8:53 PM, theartandsound said:

This is pretty much exactly the case. Decades of being a spy have hardened her to anything and everything. Drawing, music, family. Paige isn't so much a daughter as once a part of her cover and now something she created to serve Mother Russia. And all of this for a place she hasn't experienced since ~1962. Yes, what is she fighting for?

I've known a number of people who are so dedicated to their causes (whatever they may be) who have a complete inability to understand why anyone would do, or enjoy, anything that isn't - in their mind - "doing something" (mostly political in nature). In some eras, and some governments, art served the message. It wasn't about conveying emotions or making statements.

On 4/4/2018 at 9:09 PM, skippylou said:

It was portable x-ray machine.  Notice how Hockey Guy leaned way back before giving the flushing signal.  

My husband pegged it as an old fashioned dental x-ray machine.

On 4/4/2018 at 9:10 PM, Tetraneutron said:

And fire the guy for losing one client? You people are harsh! Besides, the point was this marked the beginning of the end of travel agency being a viable middle-class career. Philip is going down whether he becomes a real American or not. And who was Stavos? I know they've shown in the past that some of the employees at the agency are also spies - was Stavos one of them?

Stavos has been there since the beginning. I've never been sure whether he's in the loop, or part of the window dressing

On 4/4/2018 at 9:52 PM, jjj said:

I did think it was stupid to get up from the cafeteria table and draw attention to herself.  But what do I know, it worked!

I did too, until I realized as they both got up, that the security guards were looking for a single woman on their own. Walking with the guy gave her a bit of cover.

23 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Paige lacks experience.  Even season one we saw Elizabeth And Philip as long experienced well trained super spies.  Paige is neither.  Which is kinda interesting.  She isn’t stupid.  She just lacks Elizabeth single minded purpose (unable to even for a  moment give in and draw a stupid bowl) and her long and complicated training.  Of course Paige is going to have a lot of missteps.

i think the one thing that would ruin and outright kill the show for me would be killinging off Paige.  I know she is an unpopular character but she is an important one and killing her would do nothing for the show but be  fan service for haters.  And the show is better then that.

Paige isn't responsible for the inadequate training she seems to have received from Elizabeth.  The showrunners haven't seemed to be particularly responsive to fans (imo), so if they do kill off Paige, it seems to me it would be for a particular dramatic purpose. I could actually see it being a key element to the end. Not that I'm advocating for it. I'm neutral on Paige these days.

23 hours ago, attica said:

I super liked that the avuncular State Guide Guy was paying enough attention to notice which of his group had gone AWOL. Nice touch, show.

I liked when I noticed he was counting his group- and then when he knew exactly who was missing, I thought - well, of course, tours of the State Department aren't like museum tours. They have to have some training to make sure they're not compromised.

[Bannon]

38 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Party of one, but I’m finding this season ridiculous. The happy exposition guy in the bookstore was just silly. How many detailed covers are we supposed to believe she has? Even in the 80s academics were not quite that gullible. Academics have records and books published

 

Also, Elisabeth seems to have no redeeming characteristics whatsoever. Which makes her rather on interesting to me.

 

Agree that the rush to show travel agents is ending is premature. I remember when I first became aware of the web and it was not until the early 90s and even in the mid 90s my boss at the theater for which I worked didn’t see the point to having a website.

 

No suspense at all when Elizabeth was facing the guy who is going to shoot her because all I could think of is that while elizabeth could die the season she’s not going to die in episode two so that was a waste of time.

 

I hope it picks up soon. I remember really like this one the show began, but it’s hard not to feel it’s just completely gone off the rails.

I kind of agree, largely due to the fact that the major story arc, Paige Jennings, spy intern, just isn't compelling, either because Paige hasn't been written or acted very well. Toss in we have Liz embarked on yet another ridiculous killing spree, and Phil so far benignly (and oddly, given his cherished daughter is wading in up to her neck) retired, and it is kind of a yawner to me. I watch because Russell and Rhys are good actors. Oh, well, at least the stupid Kimmie arc seems to have disappeared.

[magemaud]

I've never been in a public men's restroom, but do the toilets ever have LIDS like the ones the spies were sitting on at JFK? 

[Bannon]

17 minutes ago, magemaud said:

I've never been in a public men's restroom, but do the toilets ever have LIDS like the ones the spies were sitting on at JFK? 

No, but it made for a better visual, which isn't a big deal, in my view.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, see also, adjacent public toilet stalls both with working locks!!!

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Stavos has been there since the beginning. I've never been sure whether he's in the loop, or part of the window dressing

On 4/5/2018 at 12:52 AM, jjj said:

Window dressing, definitely.

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Paige isn't responsible for the inadequate training she seems to have received from Elizabeth. 

I think Elizabeth is definitely responsible for the choices she's making with Paige that don't seem great, but I don't think we can say the Paige has gotten inadequate training. At least to me it really seems like where Elizabeth clearly has a problem in the way she's dealing with Paige's training, Paige, given everything we've seen for 5 years, could very realistically simply just not be getting what other people would get out of this same training. Like you could put two people in the same music school and one will become a superstar and the other simply adequate. Not because of some magical talent the first person had, but more the way they naturally approach the whole thing. From everything we've seen of Paige since she was 13 it makes perfect sense to me that this is a fundamental problem--one that Elizabeth isn't even admitting, much less managing to come up with a solution for if she even could.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Toss in we have Liz embarked on yet another ridiculous killing spree, and Phil so far benignly

I get the feeling Liz's killing spree is going to continue, too. And what's more frustrating about it is how they always insist on her killing the person in a physical struggle against a much bigger guy. It's almost a joke that she currently has a job that involves keeping someone alive (although of course it's mostly to torture her). It's surprising she doesn't one day accidentally bludgeon a waitress to death when she realizes she doesn't have enough cash to cover the check. Just out of habit.

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Says the woman who sees everything in black and white (maybe she'll get some insight from the black and white drawings of her mark's dying wife)

 

It's kind of interesting to think about what she was thinking there. Because Paige is asking her if they use sex to get info. Elizabeth does that--no black and white. She literally suggests to people that the more information they give her the better a blow job they're going to get. Doesn't get more direct than that. It is a black and white question with a black and white answer. Elizabeth just lies about which one it is.

She could just stick with that, but then she feels the need to inject some "grey" that takes it a step further. This time instead of lying about it happening, she's justifying it in a self-serving way, as if she's more worried about the feelings she's sometimes developed with sources (and Philip) or feels like she needs to blame victims like Martha for falling in love. It's like she's saying, "We never do it. But if we do it's because we're just innocent victims of it."

She's still denying the truth, that yes, they use sex and they intentionally create false romances with lonely people, but this second defense is almost more craven. 

[Bannon]

At this point, I'll just be thankful if they don't write a scene where Paige, after receiving garage boxing lessons from mom, kicks the crap out of Mike Tyson, who happens to stumble upon Liz and Page's fieldwork, while he's getting a daily run in through a D.C. park.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Bannon

[dubbel zout]

15 hours ago, Umbelina said:

They should really address the shortage of spies the KGB in Washington is suddenly experiencing.

Philip and Elizabeth always juggled long-term missions with one-offs, with no real explanation as why they had to be the ones to take the work on. I'd have liked to see at least one scheme go badly wrong because they were simply too overworked to prevent it.

15 hours ago, jjj said:

Because that is his cover story for the visa, yes, I'll bet that Arkady is requiring Oleg to attend the classes!  

Oleg would be an idiot not to attend, and Oleg is no idiot. 

14 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

This artist/patient appears very young

Miriam Shor is 46, and I imagine her character is roughly around that age as well. Not "very young" but certainly not ancient.

14 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Elizabeth is only one person in the care team

She's not—in the first episode we saw a shift change. 

If the FBI knows Oleg is in town, wouldn't the KBG? Oleg traveled on his passport from Russia. I can't imagine he wasn't flagged immediately. I always had the idea Oleg had a certain amount of independence now that he's out of the Directorate, but that doesn't mean the KGB (or someone else) isn't always keeping tabs on where he is and what he's doing.

[SusanSunflower]

It was an odd question, I thought.  I think the more obvious question for Paige to Elizabeth is "Have YOU ever used sex to get information?" ... possibly leading into some understanding of how her parents marriage works/worked.  Obviously Elizabeth has enormous autonomy from Philip, but -- still -- it's hard to imagine your Mom engaging in sexy-times with your Dad's tacit permission.  Didn't get a hint of that obvious "what about my future relationships" dimension for Paige.   Again, watch a dozen (better) spy movies or read a dozen (better) books (i.e. not James Bond) and it's obvious that there's not only Honeypots, but also lots of relationships of convenience -- using people as cover or using targets as new-best-friends ... which may also involve (casual) sex or even pretenses of relationship (The Quiet American comes to mind) 

eta:  Sorry, but 46 is relatively "very young" to have terminal cancer ... but, what I meant was that her heart and lungs (and those of most 46 year olds) are usually still in good shape ... of course there are exceptions ...  she's less likely to go into congestive heart failure and die (bad for elizabeth)  from extended heavy use of narcotics 

 

"only one person in care team" implies that there are others ... one person is not a team ... the husband and physicians are obvious other members, the patient and -- yes -- the other nurses whom we saw. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[MaryWebGirl]

17 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

It was an odd question, I thought.  I think the more obvious question for Paige to Elizabeth is "Have YOU ever used sex to get information?" ... possibly leading into some understanding of how her parents marriage works/worked. 

Would she even conceive of that though? And I would honestly assume that Paige has no idea that her parents were assigned to marry each other. It would naturally lead to questions about them being told to have her, which would understandably mess with her head.

[Clanstarling]

On 4/5/2018 at 9:02 AM, jjj said:

Agree.  At my job, we were using a travel agency for air travel well past 2000.  It was more unusual to call an airline to make your own reservation.  And the travel agency had to PRINT OUT THE AIRLINE TICKETS and deliver them!  It was a different world in terms of air travel! 

Indeed. I am still uncomfortable traveling w/o printed tickets. Though I did love the phone app boarding pass I used on my last trip (small voice - I still printed out my e-pass and tucked it into my purse just in case...)

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Wow, really? I would never have considered that no matter what their hands looked like. He wanted to shoot her. Why would he even need to shoot himself? If he wanted to die too he could have just let her win the fight and then kill himself at his leisure. No reason to struggle for it as if he has to die in that second to keep the weapon from Elizabeth. If he was trying to shoot somebody it seems like it would be her.

I definitely thought Elizabeth was trying to angle the gun so it would look like suicide (though, of course, the struggles and signs thereof would render that moot).

21 hours ago, shura said:

Didn't that percentage ultimately come from your own pocket though? The airline needed, say, $1000 to be profitable, they quoted $1100, you paid that to the travel agency, and the airline let the travel agency keep the extra $100. Philip could have shared some of that with his customer.

Kind of like the "free" drinks in first class.

19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

HOW is the possibility of Reagan being senile such a shock to KGB agents?

Honestly, didn't most of us non-spies figure that out LONG before the end of 1987?

I used to have a t-shirt with a ketchup bottle on it, and Reagan's face with the question: which one's the vegetable (for you young'uns, this referred to his administration declaring ketchup was a vegetable for school lunch purposes). I did retire it when the actual diagnosis was made public. Alzheimer's isn't a laughing matter.

 

15 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yes, that's why I mentioned film strips. I was referring to Claudia "introducing" Tchaikovsky to Paige and saying that he's such a standard, child-friendly composer that Paige could very easily have learned about him in elementary school, which at her age would still have had filmstrips. (I'm almost exactly Paige's age so to me the whole idea called up an image of that.)

I can confirm that when I was a school librarian in 1982, we still used filmstrips (middle school for Paige?). Heck, when I went back to grad school in 1988, one of our required courses (we called it elementary cut and paste), required us to make worksheets using mimeographs. In 1988... I used them when I was in elementary school in the 60's. Schools are not known as early adopters of technology.

40 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I think Elizabeth is definitely responsible for the choices she's making with Paige that don't seem great, but I don't think we can say the Paige has gotten inadequate training. At least to me it really seems like where Elizabeth clearly has a problem in the way she's dealing with Paige's training, Paige, given everything we've seen for 5 years, could very realistically simply just not be getting what other people would get out of this same training. Like you could put two people in the same music school and one will become a superstar and the other simply adequate. Not because of some magical talent the first person had, but more the way they naturally approach the whole thing. From everything we've seen of Paige since she was 13 it makes perfect sense to me that this is a fundamental problem--one that Elizabeth isn't even admitting, much less managing to come up with a solution for if she even could.

 

Adequate training includes correction and discussions on different tactics to use the next time you mess up. Mistakes are inevitable, learning how to do it better next time is necessary to training. So this is where I think Paige is getting inadequate training.

[SusanSunflower]

Quote

Adequate training includes correction and discussions on different tactics to use the next time you mess up. Mistakes are inevitable, learning how to do it better next time is necessary to training. So this is where I think Paige is getting inadequate training.

Yes, it involves correction and feedback and also actual mature "team work" in which there's no time for whinging and hurt feelings even if the criticism is brusque.  Elizabeth seems to be shielding Paige from her team members under the guise of training ... and it's still 3 years on .. and she's now (what?) 19 or 20 and had had some period of time to move to less comfortable questions, like how will my spying affect my non-spying personal life if I even found time / inclination to have one.  Paige must have realized by now (even if 3 years ago she did not) that her mother is a women who is very attractive to men and who "rocks it" ... or maybe Paige is as immature, sheltered and unobservant as she appears. 

[sistermagpie]

33 minutes ago, Bannon said:

At this point, I'll just be thankful if they don't write a scene where Paige, after receiving garage boxing lessons from mom, kicks the crap out of Mike Tyson, who happens to stumble upon Liz and Page's fieldwork, while he getting a daily run in through a D.C. park.

This is something I seriously fear after all the time they've spent showing them in the garage. I'm not going to assume they'll do it--I'm hoping Philip will handily overpower her just to show her that she's living in a fantasy world. But I can't be sure. And that would be even worse because Holly Taylor is not only smaller than Keri Russell, she doesn't have the steely resolve thing down at all. The guy would almost have to punch himself in the face to knock him slightly off-balance. Very few little people could make it believable.

27 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

If the FBI knows Oleg is in town, wouldn't the KBG? Oleg traveled on his passport from Russia

They do know. One of the reasons Arkady picked him was that he had the connections to even get to the US from the USSR quickly. So he's there legally and the KGB would have a record of it, he's just hiding the secret stuff he's doing there. That's what will get him shot in the USSR if he gets caught. How closely the Russians are watching him we don't know. Since he's not KGB they may buy his cover story for now and be too busy with the summit to put people on him.

This could be good if the FBI can get info from the KGB that confirms that Oleg doesn't seem to be working for them. But it could also tip Stan off that there's internal conflict going on.

28 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

It was an odd question, I thought.  I think the more obvious question for Paige to Elizabeth is "Have YOU ever used sex to get information?" ... possibly leading into some understanding of how her parents marriage works/worked. 

I could believe that she assumed her parents being married meant they weren't doing that since after all she's naive enough to be asking the question to begin with instead of skipping right to the question of whether they screw around on each other for work. Elizabeth was confident enough to deny it ever happened despite Paige having read it in a book. I do think that she was curious about it because sex is something she's thinking about in her own life. I mean, in terms of "bad stuff the KGB does" having sex with people in itself isn't as bad as, say, poisoning people just because they got in your way. But only the former intrigues teenager Paige, who's dreaming about her future life.

5 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Adequate training includes correction and discussions on different tactics to use the next time you mess up. Mistakes are inevitable, learning how to do it better next time is necessary to training. So this is where I think Paige is getting inadequate training.

Ah-there I agree. That is what was referring to regarding Elizabeth's problems. The more I think about it the more of a psychological red flag it is that Elizabeth covered up for her on this. I understand her maybe thinking it's a bad idea to tell her she killed the guy over it, but not telling her she made the mistake? Why? Is she doing that because she thinks Paige can't handle it or is it purely about herself? In fact, maybe that's why she tells Philip. It's not just about getting the reassurance she's obviously asking for, it's like she's trying to make up for being uncomfortable about keeping it a secret.

I mean, Elizabeth as the teacher has the responsibility there but it's clear that she and Paige are 100% interacting as mother and daughter. Even without Paige yelling "Mom!" when she's scared, the way she tells her mom about the sailor is also obviously a kid confessing that she let mom or herself down rather than a recruit presenting her supervisor with a problem. Paige sums the whole thing up with "Dammit!" as if she's disappointed herself but she doesn't ask what she needs to do to fix it. And Elizabeth doesn't suggest she should either. She just soothes her disappointment by telling her she didn't make her a mistake. 

[SusanSunflower]

I'd love to see Elizabeth's face when Paige tells other members of the team about her uncomfortable encounter with the security guard (perhaps even thinking she should helpfully warn them so it doesn't happen to them!) ... see also the rest of the team (including Paige) being unaware of likely increased police activity in the vicinity because of the (faux) mugging.  (I'm not sure how far away from the surveillance target the murder occurred) 

eta; I was thinking that Paige might walk away from the seemingly inevitable debacle "smelling like a rose" because no one realizes her centrality to what set things in motion. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Dev F]

7 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Stavos has been there since the beginning. I've never been sure whether he's in the loop, or part of the window dressing

There hasn't been any indication that Stavos knows his bosses are spies, but with the early suggestions that he might be gay (in the s2 premiere, he talks about a male roommate who's on a diet and will be mad at him if he brings home cake), I wondered if the Jenningses did some sort of reverse background check, staffing their agency with people with compromising secrets they could exploit if their employees ever started to suspect something.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Dev F

[benteen]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

There hasn't been any indication that Stavos knows his bosses are spies, but with the early suggestions that he might be gay (in the s2 premiere, he talks about a male roommate who's on a diet and will be mad at him if he brings home cake), I wondered if the Jennings did some sort of reverse background check, staffing their agency with people with compromising secrets they could exploit if their employees ever started to suspect something.

Interesting theory and one I can see being true.

That woman who was with Elizabeth last episode referred to Paige as "Julia" meaning that the team she works with doesn't know that Elizabeth is Paige's mother.  It's going to compromise their missions.

[scowl]

Once again Elizabeth kills someone at the hour mark of the episode. Are the writers following some kind of formula?

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, scowl said:

Once again Elizabeth kills someone at the hour mark of the episode. Are the writers following some kind of formula?

Her codename at The Centre is "Old Faithful".

[smartymarty]

Could the travel agency story merely been meant to parallel Elizabeth's difficulty with the general at the end? Both cases depended on the relationship with Phillip. He's a better people person/salesperson/convincer than either Elizabeth or Stavos, whether it be secret agent or travel agent.

[ahpny]

Quote

I think some viewers thought Elizabeth was withholding morphine with the excuse that the artist would become addicted, but she actually said rightly that she would build a tolerance for morphine if she got it too often, then it would not be effective. (True).

That is the ostensible reason for her (seemingly understandable) reluctance to administer too much morphine. But the actual reason appears to be to insure that the wife remains alive (regardless of pain levels) and in need of continued “nursing” service so Elizabeth’s “job” persists so she can continue to monitor her husband. If too much morphine pushed her into a coma, Elizabeth’s “nursing” wouldn’t be needed. Elizabeth was characteristically unconcerned with causing the wife additional and unnecessary pain, but didn’t seem to set out to “torture” her.

Quote

Plus, they need to be way more upfront with her about honey traps, since she'll need that to get close to Saul Berenson in around 30 years. (Yes, I'm continuing my fanwank that Holly Taylor grows up to be Miranda Otto in Homeland. Come at me.)

“Oleg” has already made the jump to Homeland, so why not “Paige?”

[dubbel zout]

8 minutes ago, ahpny said:

If too much morphine pushed her into a coma, Elizabeth’s “nursing” wouldn’t be needed.

The wife would still need monitoring, and as a hospice nurse, I'd think that would be something Elizabeth could still do.

[SusanSunflower]

The coma could be reversed with Narcan and / or time ... seriously, consider people who use, abuse and are addicted to narcotics for years, decades, with or without pain .... and still they live.  Prince was reportedly (legendarily) in pain for decades ... his fairly stable addiction (pain related) done-in by new fangled ultrapowerful pharmaceuticals, not because he "developed a tolerance" ...  See also Tom Petty whose substance history I do not know beyond reading that he had been in terrible pain for months ... again, the new fangled drug did him in. 

Elizabeth should worry more about patient suicide or mercy killing by the husband ... and intractable pain can also result in hospitalization for evaluation and trying new therapies, nerve blocks, for instance. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[SunnyBeBe]

19 hours ago, Trillian said:

I very recently had a conversation,in a social setting, with a Family Doctor who related a conversation he had recently had with the Palliative Care doctor who had taken on one of his patients.  Family Doc expressed surprise that Palliative Care Doc told him that they were rationing pain meds , rather than “making him happy” in his (the patient’s) last days/weeks. We may want to believe that medical personnel will happily push drugs on us at the end to make us comfortable, but, according to the doctor with whom I spoke, it isn’t necessarily true.  So maybe Elizabeth-the-Palliative-care-nurse plot isn’t beyond the realm.  It seems to be a thing, as cruel as it appears at first glance  

I am shocked, since Hospice is focused on keeping the patient as pain free as possible during their last days. Normally, it's morphine, based on what I have read. Some doctors may not be familiar with it's use and steer clear, but, Hospice doctors don't. 

https://www.statnews.com/2016/06/21/morphine-hospice-death/

One thing that I did forget to mention earlier was the hockey's player's wife who has the young son.....is she really that clueless?  Does she not understand how her irrational behavior could place her son's safety in jeopardy?  AND what about this guy she's talking to at work and getting such good advice from?  Is he really a good man or someone who is pumping her for info.  She's never really seemed to understand how delicate her situation is.....it frustrates me. She could get Stan and Adderholt killed.  There's something about the way she said this man is such a good listener. Sort of like how E is a good listener too. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

There's something about the way she said this man is such a good listener. Sort of like how E is a good listener too. 

Yes, that's what I thought when she said that.

[SunnyBeBe]

I didn't see this upthread, but, if its there, please pardon me. I think I have covered all previous posts on this thread. 

I wondered why they just had Claudia stop when Paige walked into the room and just listen to Tchaikovsky on the record player. I don't know much him and took a closer look at his life.  I wonder if they selected that composer for more reasons than he was Claudia's favorite.  Claudia starts many statements with, "After the war."   She did with this one as well.  Anyway, Tchaikovsky smoked a lot, was neurotic,  and is thought to have committed suicide, although, that's not confirmed. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky

Quote

 Among those interviewed were Orlova, Brown and Poznansky, along with various experts on Russian history. Dr John Henry of Guy's Hospital, an expert witness working in the British National Poison Unit at the time, concluded in the documentary that all the reported symptoms of Tchaikovsky's illness "fit very closely with arsenic poisoning." He suggested that people would have known that acute diarrhoea, dehydration and kidney failure resembled the manifestations of cholera. This would help bolster a potential illusion of the death as a case of cholera. The conclusion reached in the documentary leaned largely in favor of the "court of honor" theory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Pyotr_Ilyich_Tchaikovsky

https://books.google.com/books?id=Jf5LiICDWl8C&pg=PA240&lpg=PA240&dq=tchaikovsky+and+smoking+cigarettes&source=bl&ots=octrJOpu7-&sig=I6iZjQyKmpo28nWqeQHqyLpcMsg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVrPK_36baAhVRy1MKHbEsAfcQ6AEIUTAL#v=onepage&q=tchaikovsky and smoking cigarettes&f=false

I suppose it's just coincidental. 

Does anyone know the name of the classical piece that Claudia played for E and Paige?

Edited April 6, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[AllyB]

5 hours ago, Dev F said:

There hasn't been any indication that Stavos knows his bosses are spies,

I just can't help but wonder where all the travel agency employees think Elizabeth has disappeared to over the last few years. It's got to be the subject of office gossip whenever Philip's not around. It's especially unexplainable as she disappears from work right at the point where her children move out.

[jjj]

11 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I wondered why they just had Claudia stop when Paige walked into the room and just listen to Tchaikovsky on the record player. I don't know much him and took a closer look at his life.  I wonder if they selected that composer for more reasons than he was Claudia's favorite.  Claudia starts many statements with, "After the war."   She did with this one as well.  Anyway, Tchaikovsky smoked a lot, was neurotic,  and is thought to have committed suicide, although, that's not confirmed.  

Does anyone know the name of the classical piece that Claudia played for E and Paige?

The piece is "None but the Lonely Heart," Op. 6.  I thought it was an odd choice; there is great symphonic music by Tschaikovsky much better than this.  I assumed it was Claudia's (or someone's!) sentimental favorite piece.

I think Tschaikovsky was chosen as the favorite composer just because he is so well known.  I thought Claudia over-explained her own background there, but assume the writers had a reason for that.  It seemed like a weird interpolation to me; were they trying to point out the lack of musical/artistic sensibility of both Elizabeth and Paige in this episode?  

[Clanstarling]

10 minutes ago, jjj said:

The piece is "None but the Lonely Heart," Op. 6.  I thought it was an odd choice; there is great symphonic music by Tschaikovsky much better than this.  I assumed it was Claudia's (or someone's!) sentimental favorite piece.

I think Tschaikovsky was chosen as the favorite composer just because he is so well known.  I thought Claudia over-explained her own background there, but assume the writers had a reason for that.  It seemed like a weird interpolation to me; were they trying to point out the lack of musical/artistic sensibility of both Elizabeth and Paige in this episode?  

There's been some discussion about Claudia's choice and explanation. To me (not that deep of a thinker), I took Claudia's love of this piece as something that helped her recover after the war, and sharing it with Paige was a deeply intimate act - though presented casually. It was something that stirred and resonated with her, whether or not it was the best representation of Tschaikovsky's work. It also  has a whiff of "I was young once too," in it.

It felt like another way to draw Paige further in.

[Umbelina]

43 minutes ago, jjj said:

The piece is "None but the Lonely Heart," Op. 6.  I thought it was an odd choice; there is great symphonic music by Tschaikovsky much better than this.  I assumed it was Claudia's (or someone's!) sentimental favorite piece.

I think Tschaikovsky was chosen as the favorite composer just because he is so well known.  I thought Claudia over-explained her own background there, but assume the writers had a reason for that.  It seemed like a weird interpolation to me; were they trying to point out the lack of musical/artistic sensibility of both Elizabeth and Paige in this episode?  

In the media thread, a few of the reviews I posted mention that Tchaikovsky' mother died while he was young, and I think he wrote this for her.  ?

Don't quote me on that, but go check the media thread, I read it in a review.

[jjj]

47 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

In the media thread, a few of the reviews I posted mention that Tchaikovsky' mother died while he was young, and I think he wrote this for her.  ?

Don't quote me on that, but go check the media thread, I read it in a review.

I'm sure they do say that -- but he dedicated the piece to a singer he knew when he wrote this in 1869 (his mother had died 15 years earlier):  http://en.tchaikovsky-research.net/pages/Anna_Khvostova  

[Umbelina]

Maybe they just mentioned that his mother died young.  Another anvil or red herring about Elizabeth's impending doom?'

[jjj]

6 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe they just mentioned that his mother died young.  Another anvil or red herring about Elizabeth's impending doom?'

Sure, anvil!  And I think contributing to the general sense of family sadness surrounding the Russians we know (Philip, Elizabeth, Claudia, William).  I miss William.  We need a good dose of his sardonic and realistic analysis of the situation.  

[spritz]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I am shocked, since Hospice is focused on keeping the patient as pain free as possible during their last days. Normally, it's morphine, based on what I have read. Some doctors may not be familiar with it's use and steer clear, but, Hospice doctors don't. 

https://www.statnews.com/2016/06/21/morphine-hospice-death/

One thing that I did forget to mention earlier was the hockey's player's wife who has the young son.....is she really that clueless?  Does she not understand how her irrational behavior could place her son's safety in jeopardy?  AND what about this guy she's talking to at work and getting such good advice from?  Is he really a good man or someone who is pumping her for info.  She's never really seemed to understand how delicate her situation is.....it frustrates me. She could get Stan and Adderholt killed.  There's something about the way she said this man is such a good listener. Sort of like how E is a good listener too. 

It didn't surprise me that Sophia, the hockey player's wife, is having an affair.

 

It's funny how almost every American character or Russian defector in the show has marital/infidelity issues, divorce/dysfunctional family issues, or are womanizers. Almost no one except Philip and Elizabeth are portrayed as having a relatively stable marriage or family.

[jjj]

18 minutes ago, spritz said:

It's funny how almost every American character or Russian defector in the show has marital/infidelity issues, divorce/dysfunctional family issues, or are womanizers. Almost no one except Philip and Elizabeth are portrayed as having a relatively stable marriage or family.

Ummmmm...???  

[Umbelina]

Spys and police officers, anyone in law enforcement really, have pretty high divorce rates.  Stan was married for a very long time, before PSTD and a bunch of other stuff, including being unable to really talk honestly about what he does screwed them up.

The Pastor and his wife are married, no issues reported with Oleg and his wife either.  That Russian couple last year apparently had a pretty long marriage until the whole "let's defect" thing messed up, along with a lot of help from the KGB,  their lives.

Most of our characters are in constant life and death and national security crises, and I think that would take a tole on any marriage.  It's the nature of their jobs.

Gaad and his wife had obviously been married for a very long time.

We don't really see that many couples who aren't spying on this show.

Edited April 7, 2018 by Umbelina

[SusanSunflower]

Phillip and Elilzabeth have to swallow their emotions -- which are often simmering briskly, even hot -- for the cause.  The did separate and each had a significant other relationship:  Elizabeth and Gregory (now dead) and Phillip and the mother of his son (name escapes me, but the breakup seemed conflicted, she broke up with him for the sake of his brilliant future career).  Elizabeth was more upset with that reunion that I would have expected, perhaps only because Phillip kept it secret. They both have gotten attention and approval from "opposite sex" marks, oh and lots of sex.  Scratch the surface, Elizabeth might well sic Claudia on him and he knows it.   They have two innocent kids to deceive** and a cover to maintain.  ** There's probably only very limited "truth" in what Paige knows.   There's little if any freedom to dissent in their story. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[jjj]

4 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

  The did separate and each had a significant other relationship:  Elizabeth and Gregory (now dead) and Phillip and the mother of his son (name escapes me)

And Philip's OTHER WIFE!  (Poor Martha)

[SusanSunflower]

yes,they also spend a lot of time apart which may be why they haven't killed each other yet .... because mercifully for the stability of their marriage, they never find time to talk .... ha ha ha ha 

eta;  The "funny" thing about Martha was how superior Elizabeth felt toward her and how confused E. was  about P. attachment ... I remember P. was surprised at how willing to be devoted and "just trust him" Martha was ... it wasn't romantic for him, but I think it was a bit of "how the other half lives" and I suspect her loyalty contrasted with E. -- for all her beauty and intelligence ... and the mission.  (I miss that sort of developed character... I really would like to care about Paige much more than I do, but I have nothing to work with)

Edited April 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

Gregory and Misha's mother were long before their marriage became "real" for them though.  It was a job marriage, required by their bosses, so I don't think either of those count as cheating.

As for Martha?  Again, job only, not based on any desire, and he was honest with his wife about that, as she has been with him while they were both still spying.  I don't call any of that cheating.  Elizabeth isn't fucking that old portly man out of any kind of desire for anything other than completing her mission.  Ditto the wheat field endless BS story, Philip was far from interested in that woman romantically.

[SusanSunflower]

Oh, I didn't mean "about cheating", I meant about having a genuine (pretty much) voluntary romantic relationship .. in addition to their very young obligatory arranged marriage.  I think they both, during the years of the show, have made that recommittment and would in fact chose each other if they had to "do it all over again". 

Oh, and I thought Philip was quite intrigued by sexually voracious Martha and her Kama Sutra and "rough sex" ... 

ETA:  E. may loath having sex with marks, but I think she likes the validation that she's endlessly desirable.  Not about the sex, about the power and mastery. 

I had a crazy thought that if the artist realized taht Elizabeth "shots" don't work as well as the other nurses, she could be suspected of drug addiction herself ... always exhausted and near-napping on the job, etc.  Here where I live (state capital) we had several ugly cases of hospital worker addicts who stole patient's narcotics (from the syringe) leaving the patient's writhing in pain or without ordered anesthesia -- horrible.  As someone said above, Elizabeth is rapidly without redeeming qualities ... I'm beginning to want her caught (not killed, caught).  Note these "bad nurses" cases got a lot of attention because a least one had worked and been fired from other hospitals and two (iirc) had HIV and injected patients with dirty needles they had used ... the number of patients, etc. made it big news, prolly about a decade ago. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[crgirl412]

On 4/5/2018 at 9:13 PM, SusanSunflower said:

someone having excruciating pain an hour before their next dose is due (a very long time) may well benefit from a carefully controlled drip (same milligrams/hour/day, but creating a stable blood level) and/or microdosing on demand (now called Patient Controlled Anesthesia where the patient can push the button on the IV machine for a micro-burst)...  I'm trying to remember when patient-controlled liquid oral micro-dosing became acceptable but it was in the 1980's as I recall, when control of narcotics was loosened. (It has now tightened completely and that 1980's loosening is sometimes blamed for opioid crisis -- I'm doubtful) 

One real problem with the every-4 or 6-hour schedule is the peaks and valleys and patients whose demand for more medicine is because they want to zone out (which is sometimes when an agreement to damn the torpedos, "let them go" ... but that won't work for Elizabeth.  However, another big danger of peak and valley dosing is the respiratory suppression of peak blood level, particularly in someone who is not moving around.   (Since the 80's there have been vast "improvements" wrt slow-release orals ... I think not available then) 

This artist/patient appears very young and likely has very good heart and lungs and could live a very long time in a drug-induced coma (while an older person or someone with heart/lung compromise would not).  Elizabeth would do well to recognized that this woman might well jump out a window or hang herself from the shower rod  or slit her wrists. 

BIG fan of PCA's!!  Elizabeth's plans would never happen if the artist had been on one but I don't think they were invented yet.  PCA's are so good for severe post-op pain and cancer pain as they can get to a certain comfort level that they could never get on oral meds.  Sometimes a continuous rate (basal rate) is ordered too so they continue getting small amounts for various reasons.  Due respiratory suppression being a danger, patients should be on a continuous pulse ox to measure how much O2 the blood is carrying.  

I'm going to try to stop talking about pain management!  I just love it so much, though!!!