S06.E01: Dead Hand

[Sarah 103]

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Ref. discussion of Henry and Paige in it for the long game......it would seem so, but, to me, if that's the plan, then why place their cover at risk by having E continue to work?  That's pretty risky stuff and if she's caught, both younger, American born plants lose it all and are useless to the Centre. Wouldn't a long game involve letting P & E go silent, which would allow Paige and Henry years of time to build a very solid cover?  (I'm assuming that Henry would be open to the idea, like Paige was, which is a big IF.)

That's a brilliant idea. I hadn't even thought of that. It wouldn't work on a show like this. You would need to do massive time jumps between seasons, but I love the idea of this for a movie. 

7 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I also wonder why the Centre didn't ever think of possibly luring Paige in with half-truths or lies -- especially after the first kid who was supposed to be second generation went apeshit and killed his family.  Like, this whole thing might've worked better if P and E told Paige they were CIA, then Paige got into a government post with access to classified intel and fed them information mistakenly thinking they were on the same team (kind of like how Philip tricked Martha at first, making her think he was in another department running a "check" on how her department was running and she could tell him anything safely).  

Of course, that would take way too long to play out over the life of a TV show, especially when the amount of time jump they can do is limited by historical events and Holly Taylor's age.  

This would have been brilliant. It also would have totally worked with Henry. He thought his parents were boring but that Stan's job was super cool. 

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, and also getting him out of the house maybe cements the fact that he's not going to be told. If he doesn't even live there there's nothing for him to not notice.

That's true. I'm kind of dissapointed. I wanted to see if Henry would ever get suspicious, how his investigation would be different from Paige's, and how his reaction to finding out/figuring it out on his own would differ from Paige's.

1 hour ago, KarenX said:

And then... what Philip doesn’t realize either is how close the travel agent industry is to collapsing, too. He’s got a few more years than the USSR, though, so maybe he’ll have enough to retire on. 

The Berlin Wall comes down in 89 and the Soviet Union collapses in the early 1990s. I think travel agenency were still viable until the early 2000s when the internet and e-commerce really started to take off in a big way. There's almost an entire decade, maybe closer to 15 years, (1990-2005).   

[SlovakPrincess]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

And I thought maybe that was part of the idea with Paige and that scene. Because Elizabeth is lucky enough that she also found her great guy in mid-life, even if she's not appreciating it now. Paige is making the same choice, focusing on power and not appreciating relationships. She probably thinks she's got all she needs with her mom and Claudia, but that's a terrible plan. 

Perhaps it's simply that Paige is afraid to have real relationships at this point, and so she can't even think about them as particularly valuable any more.  She pushed Matthew away.  Her entire relationship with her parents changed overnight when they told her the truth, and she now lives with the knowledge that every day the whole family is basically lying to her little brother.  She trusted Pastor Tim once, telling him a secret that she thought he was obligated to keep confidential ... and found out that not only did he tell his wife, but he started writing about Paige as "doomed" in his journal.    

[jjj]

One aspect I will note about the Paige/officer interaction:  it happened pretty quickly, but in real time, Paige was essentially the frog who was in warm water, not noticing that it was turned up to "boil" until it was too late.  Officer Friendly started by saying he was "with Security", then told her that it was not a safe neighborhood.  Then, water gets warmer when he asked for her driver's license, and says her picture doesn't do her justice.  Then he talked about "sensitive restricted areas around here," the embassies, and that the Naval Observatory (VP's home) was eight blocks away.  So, Paige was responding well to an authority figure looking out for her with "Really?".   Then, water starts to really heat up when then her phone number and "second form of ID", and full boil on "I'll keep this so you are sure to have a date with me on Saturday."  It was very well written -- if he had walked up to her and said, "give me your student ID and phone number," maybe she could not be faulted for peeling out of there.  But he was insidious, and all she could have done by the time she was boiling was to toss some flirty hot sauce into the mix. 

(Yes, she should have been more aware of her surroundings.  And if I were waiting in a car, I would not be the only car on the block, but in a parking lot where I would not be noticed.) 

[MaryPatShelby]

On 3/29/2018 at 8:36 AM, preeya said:

I recognized him as Mark O'Connor from Allegiance. He was Hope Davis' husband.

I recognized him as the skeevy politician who sexually abused his stepdaughter on Law and Order: Criminal Intent. Haven't seen Allegiance or Gilmore Girls.

[sistermagpie]

3 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Perhaps it's simply that Paige is afraid to have real relationships at this point, and so she can't even think about them as particularly valuable any more.  She pushed Matthew away.  Her entire relationship with her parents changed overnight when they told her the truth, and she now lives with the knowledge that every day the whole family is basically lying to her little brother.  She trusted Pastor Tim once, telling him a secret that she thought he was obligated to keep confidential ... and found out that not only did he tell his wife, but he started writing about Paige as "doomed" in his journal.    

Probably, but I think she was already like that. Everybody has experiences where people betray them or let them down. Paige is old enough that she should be able to see things from other peoples' pov. And it's not like she had friends before that. It just seems to me like it's always been a combination of the two things. On one hand, she's put in this terrible situation. But otoh, even before the secret she was more drawn to movements and authority figures than equal relationships with kids her own age. If she decides to commit treason and undermine peace talks between super powers she can't justify it by saying it's her parents fault because her life was too hard. Lots of people have had hard lives.

5 minutes ago, jjj said:

But he was insidious, and all she could have done by the time she was boiling was to toss some flirty hot sauce into the mix. 

I agree that's exactly how it played. But that also just meant that she needed to do something after he took it. She couldn't think of what to do except to tell her mom. 

[becauseIsaidso]

Been binge watching past seasons - didn't finish in time for the finale season preview, but just now I finished the epi where Garbriel leaves for home and he tells Philip that Philip was right, and Paige should have been kept out of all of it....makes me think that this may have been a clue to what will happen - that perhaps Paige (whom I have NEVER cared for, especially since she threw her stupid hissie fits and demanded to be told the 'truth' then promptly blew her parents' cover - I remember my teens and there was NEVER such a time when I would have spoken to my parents in that manner, nor made so many unrealistic demands, nor broke the trust so quickly and easily WITHOUT ANY consequences...I just can't mesh her stupid behavior with the way I remember things at that point in time- ) is the one who blows everything up (since she NEVER sees anything except in terms of her own sense of righteousness) and gets her parents either killed or caught...either way, I hope beyond hope that it is dark horse Henry who comes in to save the day - so to speak. I may be in the minority who ship Elizabeth and Philip, but I really hope they do get to re-patriot to Russia.

[Sunshinegal]

You can tell the toll of working alone is doing to Elizabeth.  You can feel her being tired.  Keri Russell did an outstanding job showing the strain that is being put on Elizabeth.  I think Elizabeth will take that cyanide pill in the finale.  It's Chekov's gun (or in this case Chekov's pill).  But I could be wrong especially if the producers and writers want to subvert that trope.

I like the Arkady-Oleg interactions and the Oleg-Phillip interactions.  Let's have more of those.  Plus you can tell that Phillip didn't want to go to that meeting, and he reluctantly did go.  Matthew Rhys did a great job showing those emotions.

I feel like Renee is a secret agent.  I don't think she is Russian.  Most likely she is Eastern European.  She could be an agent for the GRU (I think that is the East German spy organization).  I kinda want her to be a secret agent because Stan was not sympathetic about Martha.  Plus he was not a good husband or father to Sandra and Matthew or a good handler to Nina (I thought that he abused his position with her).  It would be interesting to see Stan being played. 

I think Henry will be a better agent than Paige.  I don't know what the KGBs plans are for Henry.  I feel that he can read people better than his sister.  The KGB should have focused on Henry and not Paige. 

I don't want anything to happen to Oleg or his family.  That scene with his son was very moving.  He is a good guy and wants to do the right thing.  I hope he comes out unscathed.

I wonder if we will see Martha again.  I doubt it because we already saw what her life was like in Russia last year.  Personally I would like to see her next year and have some shred of happiness. 

I think that this season on a whole will be amazing. 

[Sarah 103]

2 hours ago, becauseIsaidso said:

I hope beyond hope that it is dark horse Henry who comes in to save the day - so to speak. I may be in the minority who ship Elizabeth and Philip, but I really hope they do get to re-patriot to Russia.

I'm curious how do you see Henry saving the day? It's an interesting idea and I would like to hear more about it. 

1 hour ago, Sunshinegal said:

I think Henry will be a better agent than Paige.  I don't know what the KGBs plans are for Henry.  I feel that he can read people better than his sister.  The KGB should have focused on Henry and not Paige. 

I don't want anything to happen to Oleg or his family.  That scene with his son was very moving.  He is a good guy and wants to do the right thing.  I hope he comes out unscathed.

I agree with you. Henry was the one who not only sensed danger with the man who picked them up while hitch-hiking but also took action to get them out of a dangerous situation. For weeks (if not longer) he was able to break into a neighbor's house to play video games. I really want Oleg to come through this safe and sound. After all, he has to be there to fight crime alongside Stan and Henry in my hypothetical spin-off. Henry still does the tech/computer stuff, and now they can get missions/assignments through all of Henry's boarding school connections. The three of them will be like a cross between the Pheonix Foundation and the A-Team. 

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 3/28/2018 at 11:15 PM, AntiBeeSpray said:

So much good music and the plot is good.

I was blown away by the great music supervision choices (my daughter works in the business so I am much more aware of it than I ever was) ... "Don't Dream It's Over" is one of my favorite songs, but the use of it in that opening montage was one of single most brilliant things I've ever seen in this area.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 3/29/2018 at 10:57 AM, sacrebleu said:

Fun historical/ geography fact! Paige was prob. staked out in Cleveland Park/Woodley Park. If she was a few blocks away from the Naval Observatory and a block from a great Chinese restaurant that was a place for some high-level US-Soviet meetings.  It all checks. There was a restaurant-- closed about 5 years ago-- called Ivy's (or something) that was known as a good neutral meeting place among diplomats.   Although I chuckle to think of that area referred to as a 'bad neighborhood.' It's gentrification city now-- can't buy a one bedroom condo for less than 400K these days.

Having lived here in MoCo (and first in NoVa) since 1989, so not that long after this season is taking place, I can't imagine Woodley Park/Cleveland Park even then being considered a "bad neighborhood." As long as I've been down here, AFAIK, it's always been one of the nicest areas of DC.

[Mrs peel]

12 hours ago, whiporee said:

As for E being a true believer, I don't think so. She never talks about inequities in America or social justice here, nor does she portray her homeland as a worker's paradise that all should aspire to. She has personally suffered nothing at the hands of America, while she's inflicted actual suffering on the lives of dozens of people here. Even watching the movie she was being shown that inequities still exist in the USSR -- she's got to see it as no better (or worse) than where she's been living in a killing for 20 years. Last season she watched her own handler lie to her in order for her country to steal something -- she bought into the lie about the US poisoning wheat crops, and then when confronted with the truth, she brushed it off even as she spouts more unjustified and unevidenced propaganda. 

She's not looking to make the world a better place; her actions are of someone who simply wants to win.  She's just a soldier following her uniform -- not even her uniform, because the General told her that should the leader of her country do something the KGB didn't like, he'd be dead/removed within 24 hours. Elizabeth is loyal to her job, to her soldier's mindset, not to the USSR or or communism. 

That's why she probably has to die at the end of this thing, because she would not be able to survive the next 20 years. She's not overtly corrupt enough to hang out with Putin, and she'd have no real war to fight. Having lost, the pill or something like ti would be her only option. 

 

ETA: I know there was a scene with E showing Paige the inner city either last season or the one before. I know E has made commentary about the impoverished. I think it's all propaganda without actual belief behind it, but I did want to acknowledge she has at least mentioned what she perceives as problems in America. 

I have to disagree.  She has made multiple statements about Americans being weak, pampered, etc.,  she told the Nicaraguan woman that her country’s revolution was “beautiful,” etc.  Any time Phillip said something good about the US, she disagreed.   I always remember the scene when they first arrived in America, Phillip was amazed at the air conditioning in the motel room, she was unimpressed.

[PamelaMaeSnap]

On 3/29/2018 at 11:56 PM, RedHawk said:

And no, not at all sketchy, then or now, even near Rock Creek Park.  Very wealthy neighborhood that looks much more residential than depicted on the show, but that's because they film it in New York and/or Baltimore and wanted to place Paige outside an office building

Okay, so, I may be being a) completely anal-retentive about this or b) completely wrong or c) both, but all I could think in those scenes where Paige is walking in that neighborhood with the big modern office building with the number 55 is that as far as I know, there are NO buildings in DC like that which would have double-digit numbers. 

[AntiBeeSpray]

1 hour ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

I was blown away by the great music supervision choices (my daughter works in the business so I am much more aware of it than I ever was) ... "Don't Dream It's Over" is one of my favorite songs, but the use of it in that opening montage was one of single most brilliant things I've ever seen in this area.

Definitely. This show has come very close to Cold Case in regards to music use.

[jjj]

54 minutes ago, PamelaMaeSnap said:

Having lived here in MoCo (and first in NoVa) since 1989, so not that long after this season is taking place, I can't imagine Woodley Park/Cleveland Park even then being considered a "bad neighborhood." As long as I've been down here, AFAIK, it's always been one of the nicest areas of DC.

It was just a pickup line; he just needed an excuse to start a conversation and to get her to roll down her window. 

[numbnut]

A good start to the season, though I may need to read recaps of last season cuz I don't recall the details. I still can't look at Stan's girlfriend without seeing Gena Rowlands. (I never noticed the resemblance on TWD.) That knifing was brutal. Geez. I hope Paige finds out that she got someone killed.

[jjj]

Not the first time Paige has been involved in Elizabeth killing someone with a knife in the side of his neck (parking lot, "Dinner for Seven", Season 4); and Paige saw that one.   

31 minutes ago, numbnut said:

A good start to the season, though I may need to read recaps of last season cuz I don't recall the details. I still can't look at Stan's girlfriend without seeing Gena Rowlands. (I never noticed the resemblance on TWD.) That knifing was brutal. Geez. I hope Paige finds out that she got someone killed.

[skippylou]

They are never recruiting Henry and if they know what's good for them they won't try.  Henry is an American.  He's not looking for a cause, he's looking for the American dream and he's already on the road to get there.  If they want to try, it better be with a really hot girl, I'm talking 'Playmate of the Month' material.  

I wouldn't be so sure of Paige staying with the cause, she didn't stick with Jesus too long.  If she is at an airport with Moonies or Hare Krishnas we might never see her again.

[Avaleigh]

I keep thinking about the cyanide pill. I think Elizabeth subconsciously had that pill on the brain during her fight with Philip. When she tells him that she needs sleep and then flat out states "Let me sleep." it's kind of a chilling moment if we factor the pill into the equation. It could almost be interpreted as Elizabeth saying, "Let me go."

Edited April 1, 2018 by Avaleigh

[Milburn Stone]

On 3/29/2018 at 5:40 PM, Umbelina said:

He was just hitting on her, of course he had no "right" to do that.

You're almost certainly right that this is all he was doing, but this show makes me question everything, and so I questioned whether he had more in mind than that. Namely, I considered the possibility that the "hitting on her" was just an act to defuse her suspicion; he suspected she was a Soviet spy, and confiscated her college ID not in order to have leverage over her in the dating game, but in order to turn over her picture to his commanding officer at the end of his shift. I believe Elizabeth considered this possibility too, which is why she had to kill him. (No other explanation for such an extreme action makes sense.)

[Tetraneutron]

9 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

You're almost certainly right that this is all he was doing, but this show makes me question everything, and so I questioned whether he had more in mind than that. Namely, I considered the possibility that the "hitting on her" was just an act to defuse her suspicion; he suspected she was a Soviet spy, and confiscated her college ID not in order to have leverage over her in the dating game, but in order to turn over her picture to his commanding officer at the end of his shift. I believe Elizabeth considered this possibility too, which is why she had to kill him. (No other explanation for such an extreme action makes sense.)

Yes, there is another explanation - Elizabeth was a mother protecting her child. It was irrational (we've discussed that) but 100% understandable. We saw it before, in the Pilot, when Philip beat up the gross guy at the mall. That was the point of the scene. Elizabeth, spy extraordinaire whose only loyalty is to the cause, did something that made her bad at being a spy because she put her daughter, in the moment, above her job. If it was about getting the ID back she would have pickpocketed him. 

The dramatic tension about Paige joining Elizabeth's world is how much she values her family over her beliefs. It raises the stakes for Elizabeth. What is she willing to sacrifice? How much does she really believe in what she's doing? We've seen over the last few seasons that everything is getting to her, having to destroy the YoungHees (one day I will look up the surname of that family) and then the Mozorovs, almost release a horrific bioweapon into the US, definitely release a horrific bioweapon in Afghanistan. And now her daughter. Is Elizabeth willing to destroy her? Does she even realize that's what she's doing?

8 hours ago, skippylou said:

They are never recruiting Henry and if they know what's good for them they won't try.  Henry is an American.  He's not looking for a cause, he's looking for the American dream and he's already on the road to get there.  If they want to try, it better be with a really hot girl, I'm talking 'Playmate of the Month' material.  

I wouldn't be so sure of Paige staying with the cause, she didn't stick with Jesus too long.  If she is at an airport with Moonies or Hare Krishnas we might never see her again.

I don't think the Center takes personal feelings into account when running their big illegal spy program as an act of war. Just saying. They won't be turned off because Henry doesn't wanna. The tension with Henry is that, in positive and negative ways, he's the most stereotypically American person ever. If he's not looking for a cause, they'll manipulate or browbeat him until he is. That was the whole point of the second gen illegal program. What if the Center had access to the children of Russians, who could be raised as people loyal to Russia but pass every background check possible? Who are the genetic product of the greatest spies in the country AND raised by the greatest spies in the country. (That's not how it works but that's how the Russians thought). They aren't giving that up especially not when Henry, if turned, would make an amazing spy. He's not only at the fancy school but he's sneaky and crafty and good at getting what he wants and doesn't care about rules. 

If Jared snapping and shooting his family didn't turn the Russians off the second gen illegals program, then the fact that a kid would rather party is CERTAINLY not going to. 

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, skippylou said:

They are never recruiting Henry and if they know what's good for them they won't try.  Henry is an American.  He's not looking for a cause, he's looking for the American dream and he's already on the road to get there.  If they want to try, it better be with a really hot girl, I'm talking 'Playmate of the Month' material.  

Gotta stick up for Henry a little here--though I know he's not really being insulted. It just seems important thematically to point it out. Because one of the things about the Philip/Elizabeth split is that Elizabeth always accused Philip of liking the US too much because he enjoys the things there and he enjoys the people. He gets enjoyment out of every day life like having fun and music he likes and good movies and cars etc. Henry has always been the same way.

But as I think we'll be reminded this season, that's not the same thing as being only interested in "the American dream." We don't know what Henry's plans for himself are, but he might also want to have a job where he makes the world a better place as opposed to one where he's just got money and power for himself. More importantly, he has always cared about right and wrong. He just tends to follow his own moral compass rather than look to rules. Henry and Philip in the premiere are both doing really well at the things they're currently turning their attention to, but that doesn't mean that's their priority. Everybody's talking about Henry being a hockey star but he's presumably also still a great student and probably has a good social life too. Paige is more like Elizabeth where there's just the one thing.

In the spy vs. spy story Philip has an advantage in the ways Elizabeth doesn't understand or underestimates him if she believes that Philip just doesn't care about stuff as much as he does (instead of showing his care in different ways). It would be kind of funny if she fell for the same act so many others fall for because she's so stressed she's off her game--I mean, if she started seeing Philip as the milquetoast suburban guy.

I don't know what exactly that has to do with Henry--maybe nothing it'll turn out. But it does seem potentially significant that Henry, too, has consistently been kind of dismissed by Elizabeth ("that kid's nuts") and Paige when she was being the big sister rolling her eyes and always telling him his reactions to things were ridiculous. The one time Paige had to take him seriously was when he saved her ass and he didn't need 3 years of self-defense classes to do it. I don't mean Elizabeth thinks Henry's an idiot or anything, but she has a history of not really understanding people when they're not like her and she doesn't seem to have made an extra effort in that area because it's Henry.

Edited April 1, 2018 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

Someone (prior to the premiere) asked how the kids view the marriage and each of their parents, which made me think about it, but I had no answers beyond assuming that they knew that Elizabeth ruled the roost while Philip kept the peace .... not necessarily "weak" but determined to avoid conflict.  I thought about Philip teaching Paige to drive (of course Elizabeth would be a wreck trying to "let her learn"without holding the wheel).  Philip also spending after work hours playing hockey with Henry and helping Paige with homework ... not because he's "the Dad" but because he's the more accessible while Elizabeth is folding laundry or declaring me-time reading in the bedroom. 

On an advice column forum recently, a woman raged that after 15 years of marriage, her husband still was not doing his share or appreciating all she did.  Reminded me of my parents, and reminded me that although "mom" was the good guy/rock of my family (dad was a scary grouch), her constant unhappiness was really annoying (15 years worth!!) and a sign of her genuine helplessness.  Dad might be the "bad guy" but she was no "winner" -- it wasn't like she was gonna leave (until she did of course) Phillip may be the "weak one" but I suspect he's also the "safer" one and the one more likely to notice or respond to a plea for help (be it ever so minor). 

I suspect for the final season to work, Henry and Paige also needed to be separated and Henry kept from witnessing his mother's utter crispy-fried burn out.  Kids can be pretty oblivious, but not that oblivious ...  when Paige (Elizabeth's task obsessed mini-me) will notice is another question.  Is part of Paige's worship of her mother, seeing her as a "feminist" role model in the marriage and life -- the kick-azz, take no sh*t Superwoman? 

I think there's also some reversal of the gender stereotype with Philip and Elizabeth.  "Usually" it is the wife/girlfriend who always wants to "talk" about "things" and the man is stereotypically eyeing the door fearing he's going to either get trapped into something or open a can of worms by saying the wrong thing  -- you do want to marry me some day doncha honey?  Do these pants make me to look fat?  Elizabeth has never really wanted to discuss (much less deeply think about) a lot of things -- and not just because it throws clouds her perfect marriage facade.  

Edited April 1, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Milburn Stone]

58 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

Yes, there is another explanation - Elizabeth was a mother protecting her child. It was irrational (we've discussed that) but 100% understandable.

I suppose when I said "no other explanation makes sense" I should have said "no other explanation that I can buy the show wanting me to believe makes sense." There's a world of difference between Philip beating up a guy in a mall for a grievous offense against his child and Elizabeth murdering a U.S. Navy man on the street for the crime of overstepping a boundary in his flirtation with a young woman. Elizabeth isn't perfect, but IMO her ultra-rational (to a fault) mind would have tempered maternal rage with an ounce of objectivity. I believe her ultra-rational mind weighed the risks against the benefits and decided that the benefit of preserving Paige's cover outweighed all other considerations. But MMV.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[kokapetl]

15 hours ago, Mrs peel said:

I have to disagree.  She has made multiple statements about Americans being weak, pampered, etc.,  she told the Nicaraguan woman that her country’s revolution was “beautiful,” etc.  Any time Phillip said something good about the US, she disagreed.   I always remember the scene when they first arrived in America, Phillip was amazed at the air conditioning in the motel room, she was unimpressed.

Elizabeth was unimpressed with the climate, she was impressed with the air conditioner. 

Elizabeth is a true believer. Most Americans don’t have the Jennings upper middle class standard of living. Elizabeth is well aware of class. She identifies as proletariat. The petit bourgeois travel agency owner identies were supposed to be disguises. Elizabeth is still Nadezhda, but Philip is no longer Mischa.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Kokapetl

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't know what exactly that has to do with Henry--maybe nothing it'll turn out. But it does seem potentially significant that Henry, too, has consistently been kind of dismissed by Elizabeth ("that kid's nuts") and Paige when she was being the big sister rolling her eyes and always telling him his reactions to things were ridiculous. The one time Paige had to take him seriously was when he saved her ass and he didn't need 3 years of self-defense classes to do it. I don't mean Elizabeth thinks Henry's an idiot or anything, but she has a history of not really understanding people when they're not like her and she doesn't seem to have made an extra effort in that area because it's Henry.

 

I've always thought Henry was the more interesting of the two kids, and am really hoping he has a story more than "tucked away playing hockey in private school" this final season. I suspect there will be more, there are a lot of threads to tie together during this season.

I like the observation that Elizabeth historically has trouble understanding people who don't think like her. It is, imo, her major weakness. Just as Phillip's own empathy is probably his, though it tends to make us like him better.

6 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Elizabeth is still Nadezhda, but Philip is no longer Mischa.

Very true. Most of us grow and change over the course of 20 years. To remain unchanged by our experiences is to calcify, imo. It reminds me of the following saying:

Quote

Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind.

Elizabeth is looking like she's awfully close to cracking. Phillip is more of a survivor, imo.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Clanstarling

[sistermagpie]

30 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Dad might be the "bad guy" but she was no "winner" -- it wasn't like she was gonna leave (until she did of course) Phillip may be the "weak one" but I suspect he's also the "safer" one and the one more likely to notice or respond to a plea for help (be it ever so minor). 

That reminded me of when Philip and Elizabeth were looking at Pastor Tim's diary. Elizabeth was just pleased that it showed Paige as seeing him "for what he really was" (and thus she was more about Elizabeth) while Philip asked if she didn't want them to see the stuff about how she was doomed for life because of what they did. Both were seeing what they were already thinking, but Philip felt the passive-aggression.

32 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Elizabeth has never really wanted to discuss (much less deeply think about) a lot of things -- and not just because it throws clouds her perfect marriage facade.  

I think she definitely sees herself that way, but despite that she's almost always the one who gets heard. She doesn't think deeply about things, but that's often because she has a pre-formed opinion to explain whatever she's thinking. (Like rather than dwell on how she feels about Young-Hee she'll just be troubled that she's letting emotions get in the way when she shouldn't.) When she wants to talk, Philip's usually willing to listen. She's also fond of just telling people how it's going to be. This often leads to her winding up being shocked when it turns out Philip's doing shit without telling her. Because Philip really doesn't "like to talk" in the sense of being some open book whose thoughts and motivations are out on the table for everyone. That's Paige and Elizabeth. They are the two giant emotional planets around which the family must orbit even while both thinking of themselves as the stoic ones shouldering everyone else's burdens.

I mean, I don't meant to imply that Philip's never open either. He had many seasons of "this is hard for me" after all. But even that was vague. That is, he often wasn't able to really articulate the problem and then several times at least led to Elizabeth stepping in with her own pov.

4 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Elizabeth is a true believer. Most Americans don’t have the Jennings upper middle class standard of living. Elizabeth is well aware of class. She identifies as proletariat. The petit bourgeois travel agency owner identies were supposed to be disguises. Elizabeth is still Nadezhda, but Philip is no longer Mischa.

I don't think I'd put it like that. That makes it sounds like Philip is alienated from or has abandoned his past self when I don't think he has. 

I mean, first, Elizabeth always believed that liking anything in the US meant betraying the Cause, but Philip never did, so that's not really a change. Elizabeth's relationship to the cause was also probably always more ideological while Philip's was more about wanting a better, kinder world for regular people. Philip didn't want to quit because he thought the Cause was stupid, he wanted to quit because he thought what he was actually doing was against the Cause or pointless to it as he understood it, which to me implies more a change in how he sees things than a change in core beliefs. So yes, he has changed, but that doesn't make him no longer Mischa. It means Mischa's in his 40s now.

Elizabeth does seem to insist she's the same person she was at 22 and is still a total Russian and a foreigner in the US, but she's denying how much of her has also grown and changed. Philip talks about cutting himself off from the past and just being Philip Jennings for real, but he still deeply cares about the USSR. They're both Nadezhda/Elizabeth and Mischa/Philip imo.

That's another reason I like this set up of Russian reformers vs. hardliners. Elizabeth seems to always imply that she's somehow "the Russian one" or that she's got custody of the motherland because she's an ideologue when Russia is much bigger than Soviet doctrine. Russia itself has evolved since she was a child, so what country is she loyal to?

21 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Quote

Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind.

Elizabeth is looking like she's awfully close to cracking. Phillip is more of a survivor, imo.

Yes, I think we're seeing the pros and cons of their coping mechanisms. Not only has Elizabeth always been more rigid ("stronger" in her mind), she's also always been able to rely on the Centre to shoulder a lot of the moral complexity. Where Philip obsesses over what he's done personally, Elizabeth could just say she was following orders so it's not on her. Perhaps this split in leadership will make that harder for her. And shake her ability to imagine the USSR being as understandable as it was when she left.

[SusanSunflower]

not.to.be.contrary. -- but wasn't Paige "always going to be the one" because she was the older (first born) and good student and adult-temperment.  God help all of us who adopted the identity of being "mature" at a young age because it got praise (although, I came to expect, not because of respect, but because we could be left to fend for ourselves -- less work for Mom and Dad!!)  The youngest kid often both "gets away" with plenty and becomes a bratty problem child, not least because Mom and Dad are tired of policing children (neglect). 

Henry at this point seems more mature than Paige (not just choosing his own course but also living independently) but he was the dweeby and quite animated little brother originally.  I suspect Paige would be shocked if she found out she was "chosen" simply as a matter of birth order ... and in a fair "competition", all things being equal, knowing then what we know now, Henry might well have been the chosen one.   Of course, for all we know, Elizabeth may still vaguely hope to enlist Henry, once Paige is trained and independent (never gonna happen, right?) 

Edited April 1, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Tetraneutron]

18 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

 

Henry at this point seems more mature than Paige (not just choosing his own course but also living independently) but he was the dweeby and quite animated little brother originally.  I suspect Paige would be shocked if she found out she was "chosen" simply as a matter of birth order ... and in a fair "competition", all things being equal, knowing then what we know now, Henry might well have been the chosen one.   Of course, for all we know, Elizabeth may still vaguely hope to enlist Henry, once Paige is trained and independent (never gonna happen, right?) 

This doesn’t make sense. Paige wasn’t chosen over Henry. The plan was always that they’d both be chosen. Paige went first because she was older, that’s all. But when Claudia brought it up at the end of season 2 it was always that all second gen illegals would be groomed. That was the whole point. 

[Erin9]

I agree. I wouldn't say that Philip is no longer Mischa. He's just older now. He's not the same person he was at 20, and he's not pretending that he is. (No one could be.) Philip likes things about America, and sometimes that's perceived that he no longer cares about The Cause or Russia, especially by Elizabeth, but that's not true imo. The thing is, Philip never would have lasted so long if he didn't care. His empathy and concern for his country was used time and again to keep him in the game when he was burning out and unclear if what they were doing was truly beneficial. 

He wouldn't be torn up now about what Oleg said if he didn't care about the fate of Russia. What Oleg said resonated with him, as Arkady knew it would. This is something he can get behind. He's been noting for a long time that life has been more difficult for his people than it should be, that what they've been doing hasn't been working. Oleg is giving him a way to help in a cause that Philip believes can work- ie making sure the Summit is a success, keeping Gorbachev in power with his reforms, and in the end reducing the power of the hardliners who are against change/progress.

I think Elizabeth is perceived as stronger that Philip because he burned out before she did, because he asks questions, and because she is so resolute in her beliefs. But, I don't think she is. Philip is adaptable to a changing world. He thinks. He's willing to try new things. This isn't working, okay what will. He's not wedded to one way and ONLY one way of accomplishing things. It doesn't mean he doesn't care. He does. Philip, I would agree, is a survivor.

Elizabeth is falling apart. I don't know how she lives without the Cause. Unless something fundamental shifts between now and the end. She's not equipped for it. She spouts ideology without looking at the reality of what's working and what isn't. For her, there is no other way, nothing else to do with your time, nothing that really matters. You can't care about and focus on multiple things. After all, in the end, Elizabeth refused to listen to anything Philip had to say when he kept telling her it was important. Well, since she was sure it wasn't about Paige the spy in training or the fate of Russia (She was wrong about that.), it couldn't possibly be important. Because nothing else really is. 

I would agree that Elizabeth's greatest flaw is her inability to understand people who don't think like her, that she can't relate to. Philip's may well be his empathy, but it makes him more human, more able to live in and understand the world and people in it, and yes, more likable. Henry is a survivor too.

It's hard to say what Paige is. So far, she flits from cause to cause. Her whole life is not and hasn't been wrapped up in this one. She'll be fine, in general, I would think. Not sure about her people skills though, since her life seems to revolve entirely around whatever cause she's embracing at a given time.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Erin9

[SusanSunflower]

I've seen (I think) a fair number of post suggesting that Henry would have been the better choice ... natural talent ... and I don't remember much discussion about either "telling Henry" the family secret now or when to break the news (and/or enroll him in the family business).  The whole "plan" is is confusing since I assumed that Paige would be planted in the government (or academia) as a long-term asset and informant, even as a possible recruiter of other informants (witting or not)  -- not honey-trapping, not assuming identities to seduce and abandon (and kill) folks under false pretenses.  (The story of this long-term planting was complicated by Paige having no particular interests -- political or otherwise.  As I think I said before, I can see her "infiltrating" the secretarial pool to become a new more effective "Martha" ... not so much infiltrating scientific projects as either as scientist or project manager (like William). 

That said, I think Paige likely believes herself favored (and likely "chosen") because of her loyalty/worship of Mom and the Motherland ... Henry, in contrast, has largely spun out of the orbit of dependence that would make him willing and eager to join the family business (although yes, as has been mentioned, he might be blackmailed into doing so to save the family.) 

I'm hopeful that either Oleg or Phillip survive to help raise / reunite / support the other's children ... Oleg as a new Gabriel for Paige,  Philip as a kind Uncle substitute for Oleg's children (and possibly even Martha's, even a back in Russia surrogate son to Gabriel, if his own family is "out of reach" or dead. 

[sistermagpie]

Oh yeah, there's never been any doubt that the Centre zeroed in on Paige because she was older. She was simply next in line after Jared. It's just very strange that the Centre hasn't put Elizabeth on Henry now that he's older than Paige was when they told them to tell her--and he's so outwardly successful.

Elizabeth herself I would say always seemed to think it was important for Paige to know who she was and she's been trying to get her into the business for a long time. With Henry? Never. She's never indicated any desire in that direction. She freaked out at the idea of Paige going to camp for 3 months but Henry going to boarding school was fine with her. Sure the camp was Christian, but the boarding school is an elite American boarding school!

As to whether Henry was mature, for a while I remember there were sometimes vague attempts on behalf of critics or viewers to see Paige as like a little parent. As if Henry and Paige were "raising themselves" because their parents were so neglectful and Paige was more like Henry's mom. But that was never true. The parents worked a lot, sure, and Paige was clearly the kind of kid who acted mature by doing chores etc. But that was always much more about Paige getting her parents' attention than caring about Henry or having that sort of relationship with him. In fact, several times where Paige ostentatiously was 'taking care' of Henry it was just a cover for going over to see Matthew. When we talk about Paige not having relationships outside of her mentors (be it the Tims or Claudia and Elizabeth) Henry's included in that.

On Henry's end, he thanked her for making dinner if the parents were out, which isn't unusual for a teenage daughter, but he didn't obey her or go to her with problems etc.  He pretty much was always independent. It didn't come across as maturity since he wasn't taking responsibility for others and wasn't responsible when it came to stuff he wasn't interested in (like school) but he was never babyish either. So one could maybe make a case he was always more mature. It depends on how one defines mature. It's like Elizabeth and Philip again. Paige follows the behavior her authority figures lay out as mature and gets approval. Henry finds things that interest him and does that.

7 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

After all, in the end, Elizabeth refused to listen to anything Philip had to say when he kept telling her it was important. Well, since she was sure it wasn't about Paige the spy in training or the fate of Russia (She was wrong about that.), it couldn't possibly be important. Because nothing else really is. 

Yeah, and with the kids out of the house she can't use them as a cover to get the downtime she'd like. I mentioned above about Paige sometimes using Henry as an excuse to see Matthew. Elizabeth in S1 tried to use the kids as a cover for wanting Philip back home etc. Now she's gone so all-in on the cause she almost has to keep doubling down. It's maybe a bit like S1 where in order to get Philip back she had to ask him back. A small thing, but huge for Elizabeth.

1 minute ago, SusanSunflower said:

I assumed that Paige would be planted in the government (or academia) as a long-term asset and informant, even as a possible recruiter of other informants (witting or not)  -- not honey-trapping, not assuming identities to seduce and abandon (and kill) folks under false pretenses. 

That is definitely *supposed* to be the plan. Paige isn't supposed to be like Elizabeth. She's supposed to be more like William or whoever.

2 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

That said, I think Paige likely believes herself favored (and likely "chosen") because of her loyalty/worship of Mom and the Motherland ... Henry, in contrast, has largely spun out of the orbit of dependence that would make him willing and eager to join the family business (although yes, as has been mentioned, he might be blackmailed into doing so to save the family.) 

Not saying that this will happen, but one thing Henry might definitely be open to is a principled betrayal of his country for a higher cause. That is, I can't imagine him being like Paige, but if he knew what his dad and Oleg were up to and it would help them in that even if it was technically going against American law, he would do that. Like Oleg giving up William because he saw something more important than what Arkady called "these spy games we play." There's plenty in Henry's character, imo, that says he'd be able to make that distinction.

7 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Oleg as a new Gabriel for Paige,

Oleg's out of the spy game at this point, remember. He's working for the Ministry of Transportation, not the KGB. And even before that, he's not Directorate S and could never be a handler. He's a known Russian operative who could never have a US cover ID. It's not even safe for him to be in the US, I imagine given his history.

[SusanSunflower]

I'd add that if Paige were a different person, she could plausibly enroll in the police academy with an eye to go to Quantico and become an FBI agent or, if a Foreign Affairs degree holder, go to Langley for a CIA career or attempt a state department diplomacy career (which are all careers you can volunteer/apply for, if you've got the "right stuff" ... Stan would surely given Paige (and/or Henry) a glowing referral and might well be able to wrangle a few other letters of recommendations from associates.  

I think Henry harbors greater personal ambitions than that (whatever they may be) ... and has generated his own network of useful friends and mentors. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Umbelina]

Paige was never supposed to be a "Martha."

Martha was used and handled by Philip, and in the dark about what she was doing for a long time.

Paige was probably expected to be more like Philip AND Martha together.  Well placed, but decoding her own messages, knowing how to do dead drops, certainly being aware of how to do surveillance and how to avoid or be aware if she were being followed, constant awareness of her surroundings, memorizing faces, shoes, outfits, license plates quickly and easily.  That's what Elizabeth has been doing with her for the past 3+ years, and yes, of course that would include self defense, probably weapon familiarity, and disguises, equipment use, like bugs and cameras and microdots, as well as indoctrination into the cause of course.  The idea isn't that mommy will always be around, the whole idea is that Paige will become as capable and dedicated as mommy.  

Paige being well placed in a sensitive area would not eliminate the other basics of spying.  Philip, Gabe, and certainly Claudia know that may eventually involve honey trapping for her, if it's only her boss who has more access to something Center would need, and could also require eliminating someone who is on to her.  On some level Elizabeth knows that too, but Liz is very very good at denial.

Now we know why we watched Hans being trained by Elizabeth for so long, and also used and evaluated by Philip a few times.  In much less time, with much less attention, Hans was already better and more committed than Paige.  Non-mommy Elizabeth was ready to cut him loose because of a long distance possible identification.  She was also impressed Hans killed that guy, even though he broke the rules.  It showed commitment.  Paige, after 3+ years of much more training, can't even bother to be aware of her surroundings on a fucking stake out.  If the writers are saying Paige as spy is a foolish, desperate error?  Good.  Because it is.

As for Henry, he's automatically doing all the right things to become valuable to the KGB.  Right schools, scholarship, right people, loves computers, hell, sentimentally, he even plays hockey!

It's been three long years, so much could have happened off screen.  Are we really supposed to believe that Center forgot all about Henry?  Or, is it more likely that they are grooming him from afar, since Mommy's hands are full with Paige, and Daddy is out of the game?  Yes, they could blackmail him, or coerce him should part of his family be back in Russia, but what if they are just placing a friend in that school of his?  Or if Claudia, no stranger to lying her ass off to the Jennings, is personally running that op and leaving Liz out of it since she's so burned out and has her hands full?  Or, here's another wild thought!  What if that's one of Renee's jobs?  Supervising the recruitment of Henry, well placed with Stan, who has always been very close to Henry?

Yeah, that last bit's a long shot.  Still, I have a hard time believing Moscow has forgotten all about Henry, when they were so hell bent on 2nd generation.  Maybe they are not impressed with the way Paige is coming along under Elizabeth's instruction, and put someone else on Henry's case?

[SusanSunflower]

Martha became an incredibly valuable "asset" -- although unwitting, being personally unexceptional (not a honey trapper) and without special spy skills -- my point being only that properly placed even "lowly secretaries" can have access to useful information ... as Phillip also could use Kimmie's proximity to her dad to make her (Kimmie) an invaluable asset.   Paige (or Henry) as some new member of Kimmie's social whirl would not (necessarily) take some long-range planning (and would be closer to Elizabeth as many targets "new best friend" strategy to get close to targets/assets.) Remember the housekeeper who planted the high level official's bug .  That's all.  Of course, Elizabeth would shudder at such a boring deep-embed career path for her darling daughter ... and I don't think you need to use an invaluable first-generation "real american" for those tasks, no intense security clearance needed, although Martha likely was intensively cleared 

Edited April 1, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[Erin9]

I get that they don't really have time to deal with both Henry and Paige as potential spies in training and both having the long drawn out story of adapting to the truth, but I do think the show, before it's over, needs to explain what the situation with Henry is as far as the Centre is concerned. 

The idea was that both kids would be recruited. Paige went first because she's the oldest. Henry's past old enough now. So- has the Centre changed their minds about the goal? Are they doing an end run around Philip and Elizabeth and grooming him behind their backs? I realize Henry isn't the favorite of the writers, for whatever reason, but they still need to explain this imo. 

And Henry needs to be a part of this wrap up too. This is going to blow up somehow. It WILL affect him. It has to. Being in boarding school won't shield him from the reality that his parents are spies and whatever that ultimately means.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Martha became an incredibly valuable "asset" -- although unwitting, being personally unexceptional (not a honey trapper) and without special spy skills -- my point being only that properly placed even "lowly secretaries" can have access to useful information ... as Phillip also could use Kimmie's proximity to her dad to make her (Kimmie) an invaluable asset.   Paige (or Henry) as some new member of Kimmie's social whirl would not (necessarily) take some long-range planning (and would be closer to Elizabeth as many targets "new best friend" strategy to get close to targets/assets.) Remember the housekeeper who planted the high level official's bug .  That's all.  Of course, Elizabeth would shudder at such a boring deep-embed career path for her darling daughter ... and I don't think you need to use an invaluable first-generation "real american" for those tasks, no intense security clearance needed, although Martha likely was intensively cleared 

 

I didn't say she wasn't .

She also wasn't decoding messages from center to know her next move, or retrieving the listening pen from a dead drop, or, watching to see if she was being followed.  Hans or Philip did that, without her even being aware of it.

My point is, Paige will be expected to be BOTH sides of that duo.  She will be Philip AND a Martha.  She will be sending messages to Moscow, she will be expected to know advanced spying methods, and be able to protect herself on several fronts, her cover, her movements, her life.

"Paige will never have to do what we do" is complete bullshit.  Gabe, Martha, and Philip all know that.  "Things always go wrong..." and yes, they would want her cover protected, but that doesn't mean she won't also be needed in a wheat field some day, or to cozy up to a diplomat, which wouldn't blow any cover she has anyway, right?  Even well placed secretaries date after all.  Or executives, or whatever they instruct her to be.

Elizabeth is currently being run ragged, and someday, that will be Paige.  Of course we know the USSR is about to go away, as will the KGB, but that doesn't mean the GRU will, or that spying will stop.  As we are well aware of today...and when the illegals were caught, long after the fall of the USSR.

One of Elizabeth's greatest skills as a soviet spy is her immense capacity for denial.

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I get that they don't really have time to deal with both Henry and Paige as potential spies in training and both having the long drawn out story of adapting to the truth, but I do think the show, before it's over, needs to explain what the situation with Henry is as far as the Centre is concerned. 

The idea was that both kids would be recruited. Paige went first because she's the oldest. Henry's past old enough now. So- has the Centre changed their minds about the goal? Are they doing an end run around Philip and Elizabeth and grooming him behind their backs? I realize Henry isn't the favorite of the writers, for whatever reason, but they still need to explain this imo. 

And Henry needs to be a part of this wrap up too. This is going to blow up somehow. It WILL affect him. It has to. Being in boarding school won't shield him from the reality that his parents are spies and whatever that ultimately means.

As I said, THREE long and empty years, so much could have happened.  Maybe Renee is there to supervise Henry's recruitment/grooming, as well as keep an eye on Stan.

OR, alternately, stoic Granny, the good soldier, personally took on handling Henry when she saw that Elizabeth would never have the time, energy, or inclination to do it right?

Anything is possible, so much time has passed.

Henry could end up hacking computers for Mother Russia, OR, he could help dad modernize the travel agency some day, creating the first Travelocity.  Who knows? 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Umbelina
Granny not Martha! Yikes!

[sistermagpie]

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

My point is, Paige will be expected to be BOTH sides of that duo.  She will be Philip AND a Martha.  She will be sending messages to Moscow, she will be expected to know advanced spying methods, and be able to protect herself on several fronts, her cover, her movements, her life.

Really she'd be William. He was an Illegal who was placed with one identity. He knew how to meet with people etc. What she isn't doing is putting on lots of wigs to pretend to be different people with different identities creating whole relationships with them, whether they involve honey trapping or not. So she won't be destroying lives right or left. She shouldn't be run ragged in the sense of flying around with different identities to maintain. That would just threaten her real cover. Really it would be far smarter for the Centre to stick her in a position and leave her the hell alone. Telling her to start killing or seducing people would be dumb. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't do it. Somebody might at least push her to sleep with a boss or something, dumb as that would be if she had an important position herself.

40 minutes ago, Erin9 said:

And Henry needs to be a part of this wrap up too. This is going to blow up somehow. It WILL affect him. It has to. Being in boarding school won't shield him from the reality that his parents are spies and whatever that ultimately means.

I'm trying not to be too optimistic but I hope the fact that they've decided to say something about Henry and Philip getting along means they're actually writing a story for him along those lines. Like you said, okay, they don't have the time to do a years-long story about it like with Paige, but I hope it's not just Henry being shocked at the end with the idea that at least he's got Stan or whatever. Or him and Stan being shocked together. I hope Philip being more in tune with Henry isn't just him happily reacting to Henry having a nice life elsewhere. It seems like if they have scenes together where they're actually connecting the spy stuff should come into it. I don't mean Philip bringing him in, obviously, but like the way Elizabeth and Paige right from the start would have conversations where they were talking about Elizabeth's real life without knowing Paige knowing exactly what she was referring to when she spoke. It seems like they'd want to give him some scenes that you know would resonate after the reveal, for instance.

I guess I think of it like that thing that people sometimes say about how there "are no secrets" really. Like where the secret's revealed and somehow things make more sense. We know the stuff that Paige thought was wrong and needed explanation. Henry doesn't care so much about the ways his family didn't conform to "normal." But he might have questions about his dad seems distant in some way or whatever. We even know that they have all these parallel experiences without realizing it and it certainly seems like both of them *want* to connect to each other. It'd be nice to see a different dynamic. Paige and Elizabeth were always intense, lurching between conflict and mutual admiration.

[kokapetl]

When Claudia first sort of showed an interest in Paige, Paige was like 13, and Henry was 10. Remember how in season 2 Henry loved the odd, unplanned vacation to that shit motel, but Paige was all disturbed and suspicious of it? Henry was a clueless little kid. Paige was really only let in on the big United Soviet Socialist Secret because her suspicions persisted and she was going to have a mental breakdown. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Kokapetl

[SusanSunflower]

I thought the primary added value of born-in-the-USA second generation spies was that they would be able to pass security checks (having a deeper verifiable backstory) ... so they could be placed "inside" as long-term embeds.  Elizabeth and Phillip have had remarkable careers never being embedded (instead they used "marks" as their proxies).  As "small business owners", they weren't answerable to anyone.  (I wonder if they have corporate/government clients ... if so, they may survive longer than many local travel agencies) 

No matter how good Elizabeth's secretarial skills might be ... she could never be another "martha" because she likely could not withstand security clearance scrutiny.  Remember the buzzing gossip at the FBI when it turned out Martha had a boyfriend who was not one of them ... immediately wanting to know who he was and how she met him.  

Why use Paige to do Elizabeth's job(s)?  Why would they leave Paige without the infrastucture / support?  Skills like decoding and photography / bugging etc. aren't hard to learn (and in a pinch could be done by KGB support personnel -- not critical or special to native born second generation) 

Edited April 1, 2018 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

12 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

When Claudia first sort of showed an interest in Paige, Paige was like 13, and Henry was 10. Remember how in season 2 Henry loved the odd, unplanned vacation to that shit motel, but Paige was all disturbed and suspicious of it? Henry was a clueless little kid. Paige was really only let in on the big United Soviet Socialist Secret because her suspicions persisted and she was going to have a mental breakdown. 

Claudia showed an interest in Paige because the Centre ordered her to tell Elizabeth and Philip to bring her in. Paige was already suspicious and that's why Philip and Elizabeth actually told her when they did, but both parents were already being pressured to tell Paige the truth because she was next in line. They didn't seem to care whether Paige was suspicious or not. They were just interested in her potential security clearance.

[kokapetl]

4 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Claudia showed an interest in Paige because the Centre ordered her to tell Elizabeth and Philip to bring her in. Paige was already suspicious and that's why Philip and Elizabeth actually told her when they did, but both parents were already being pressured to tell Paige the truth because she was next in line. They didn't seem to care whether Paige was suspicious or not. They were just interested in her potential security clearance.

The Illegals program always had the goal of  legal offspring spies, but Phil and Liz only told Paige their true identity after Paige brought things to a head one night, on pastor Tim’s advice. What’s prompted her training has been random and unplanned events: she blabbed to Tim that her parents are spies, so she needed to keep herself in his good graces. She and her mother were attacked by some rapey thieving hobo, so she asks for self defense lessons from Elizabeth. Kate was dispatched to handle Jared, but Paige inherits the old lady her mother doesn’t really like. 

[Sarah 103]

14 hours ago, skippylou said:

They are never recruiting Henry and if they know what's good for them they won't try.  Henry is an American.  He's not looking for a cause, he's looking for the American dream and he's already on the road to get there.  If they want to try, it better be with a really hot girl, I'm talking 'Playmate of the Month' material.  

 

Henry wants something beyond the life of his parents. He thinks they are boring. He's also into technology so the Soviet equivalent of Q might work well too. 

5 hours ago, Tetraneutron said:

They aren't giving that up especially not when Henry, if turned, would make an amazing spy. He's not only at the fancy school but he's sneaky and crafty and good at getting what he wants and doesn't care about rules. 

I think they have plans for Henry but they are playing a long game with him and will not approach him until later in life. 

2 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Stan would surely given Paige (and/or Henry) a glowing referral and might well be able to wrangle a few other letters of recommendations from associates.  

I think Henry harbors greater personal ambitions than that (whatever they may be) ... and has generated his own network of useful friends and mentors. 

I think the Centre knows all about Henry, especially his interest in the FBI and now that's going to this fancy school. They are probably waiting to see where it leads. They don't want to spook him too early and mess up his life. There will be plenty of time for that later. 

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Paige was probably expected to be more like Philip AND Martha together.  Well placed, but decoding her own messages, knowing how to do dead drops, certainly being aware of how to do surveillance and how to avoid or be aware if she were being followed, constant awareness of her surroundings, memorizing faces, shoes, outfits, license plates quickly and easily.  That's what Elizabeth has been doing with her for the past 3+ years, and yes, of course that would include self defense, probably weapon familiarity, and disguises, equipment use, like bugs and cameras and microdots, as well as indoctrination into the cause of course.  The idea isn't that mommy will always be around, the whole idea is that Paige will become as capable and dedicated as mommy.  

As for Henry, he's automatically doing all the right things to become valuable to the KGB.  Right schools, scholarship, right people, loves computers, hell, sentimentally, he even plays hockey!

Henry is going to be a far more desirable target. 

1 hour ago, Erin9 said:

I get that they don't really have time to deal with both Henry and Paige as potential spies in training and both having the long drawn out story of adapting to the truth, but I do think the show, before it's over, needs to explain what the situation with Henry is as far as the Centre is concerned. 

The idea was that both kids would be recruited. Paige went first because she's the oldest. Henry's past old enough now. So- has the Centre changed their minds about the goal? Are they doing an end run around Philip and Elizabeth and grooming him behind their backs? I realize Henry isn't the favorite of the writers, for whatever reason, but they still need to explain this imo. 

And Henry needs to be a part of this wrap up too. This is going to blow up somehow. It WILL affect him. It has to. Being in boarding school won't shield him from the reality that his parents are spies and whatever that ultimately means.

I agree and think there's an element of misdirection. While the Centre is putting so much time and energy on Paige and making them think she is the one being groomed, they are also going to go after Henry, but in a totally different way without Philip and Elizabeth knowing. Now that he's at boarding school, there could be a teacher there who's recuiting. I don't think that was there plan for Henry from the start, but based on what has happened, that would be my guess of how they would try to get to him. Maybe the Centre realized that going after the 2nd generation as young teenagers wasn't the best way and decided to wait until they were older. 

[sistermagpie]

24 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

The Illegals program always had the goal of  legal offspring spies, but Phil and Liz only told Paige their true identity after Paige brought things to a head one night, on pastor Tim’s advice. What’s prompted her training has been random and unplanned events: she blabbed to Tim that her parents are spies, so she needed to keep herself in his good graces. She and her mother were attacked by some rapey thieving hobo, so she asks for self defense lessons from Elizabeth. Kate was dispatched to handle Jared, but Paige inherits the old lady her mother doesn’t really like. 

Right, I was making the distinction between Claudia's interest, which was relatively impersonal and just about the Centre's orders, and what actually went down between Philip and Elizabeth and Paige. Henry hasn't given the Jennings any reason to tell him the truth so there's no confusion there, but it's weird that the Centre doesn't have any interest in Henry that we've seen. On paper he's just as valuable as Paige. Maybe moreso now that he's at this prep school. There's no reason they wouldn't be open about that interest given how things are going with Paige.

7 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

I think they have plans for Henry but they are playing a long game with him and will not approach him until later in life. 

But that's directly against everything else we know about this second gen program. The reason they think they have a hold over these kids is their parents. They thought 14 was the time to tell Paige. Approaching Henry later in life avoids using the parents as parents which is the thing that made the difference with Paige. If they're just going to wait until Henry's a successful American and then blackmail him with his parents they're setting up a hostile relationship with Henry and giving him every reason to rebel against the plan. He's not a second gen in that case, he's just an American being turned by any means the have.

Likewise, sending somebody to recruit Henry at boarding school or whatever is just going after him like any other kid, not a 2nd gen Illegal--and there's no reason to think Henry would be particularly open to recruitment at all. He's far more skeptical than Paige about stuff like this and also friends with an FBI agent he'd probably tell about any teacher trying to get him into this stuff.

One difference between the kids is that Henry would probably be a juicy prospect for the Centre even without being the son of Illegals given the way he's going--a juicy prospect, but probably not considered a likely one since right now there's not much about him that's vulnerable to Soviet enticement. If Paige wasn't 2nd gen her appeal would have been her personality as a willing follower of stuff like this. But they're both actually on the radar because of Philip and Elizabeth. The Centre tried to recruit Jared without his parents knowing and it was a disaster. What they learned from that, according to Claudia and according to what we've seen, is that they need to use the parents to influence their children. And that would naturally mean they should act while they're still a big influence.

[Umbelina]

By the way, Paige could do honey traps without ever jeopardizing her cover or job.  Murders have always been a last resort, even for Phil and Liz, the only deliberate murder I remember is that Russian lady who was raped and then worked for the Germans, and her husband.

So, let's say a young Paige becomes executive secretary to some Senator who is in charge of some committee.  Finance, Armed Forces, Science and Technology, whatever.  So she's doing her spy thing, and trusted top secretary thing, and find out he's going to some meeting to be briefed on something new and of great interest to the Soviet Union (or Russia by then.)  Center goes wild, because someone they've been trying to turn will be a key speaker at this, rather secret event, they didn't even know he would be in the USA, since he's Chinese or Japanese, or French...

You get what I'm saying here, one thing leads to another in spy work.  The details aren't important.

So this target particularly likes a certain food, or loves theater, or likes to dance, or hike, it doesn't matter what.  Or she delays a report and drops it off personally to her Senator and meets the target dude that way.  Lot's of ways to do this.

What on earth would blow Paige's cover to "accidentally run into him" in a meet cute way, only with all the juicy spy details knowing JUST what this dude likes? 

Dating would raise no suspicion, she's young and single, of course she will meet men and date! 

That's exactly how Paige could end up doing honey traps for mother Russia.  The way she murders someone?  Is getting caught doing something she had no business doing, probably at her job.

What's to stop a young secretary from joining a gym where someone Russia is watching needs additional surveillance?  NOTHING.

If this happens will she do more spying stuff than just sitting in her office?  Of course.  She's not William, a talented scientist who is there to steal SCIENCE.

Edited April 1, 2018 by Umbelina

[Sarah 103]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

The Centre tried to recruit Jared without his parents knowing and it was a disaster. What they learned from that, according to Claudia and according to what we've seen, is that they need to use the parents to influence their children. And that would naturally mean they should act while they're still a big influence.

Maybe what they learned from Paige was that around 13 or 14 isn't the best time to make the approach. 

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If this happens will she do more spying stuff than just sitting in her office?  Of course.  She's not William, a talented scientist who is there to steal SCIENCE.

Really, a lot of this comes down to Paige's career prospects outside of spying. Elizabeth assumes the sky's the limit but it's quite possible that even a Paige fully on board with being a spy would never be able to get a top job because that's just not her skill set for whatever reason. If she was in a lower level position where she was just around classified stuff there'd be all the more reason to encourage her to date higher-ups. If she is the higher up herself there's more reason to just let her do her thing. A person's protected by the Centre in so far as their value to them.

3 minutes ago, Sarah 103 said:

Maybe what they learned from Paige was that around 13 or 14 isn't the best time to make the approach. 

But then, Paige was 15 when she learned the truth and even though she told her pastor, she's their greatest success story. Of course, a lot of that is probably down to Paige herself than her age, but still.

But I get what you're saying--maybe they decided it would be better to wait a little longer. But they'd still want the kid at home, so that only gives you probably until 18. Surely if they were interested in Henry they'd have to be on it by now. At least you'd think they'd want Elizabeth starting to send her little weekly reports and starting to work on him the way she worked Paige before the reveal. They pulled the trigger when they did because Paige demanded it but before that Elizabeth was leading her down the path of breaking the law for the sake of the Cause etc. and just figuring out how to get her away from Pastor Tim. Henry's not under the sway of a specific mentor, it doesn't seem, but in some ways that just makes it harder. Elizabeth had her work cut out for her with Paige. The kid was already shopping for this sort of thing. Henry doesn't need it.

[becauseIsaidso]

23 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I'm curious how do you see Henry saving the day? It's an interesting idea and I would like to hear more about it. 

I agree with you. Henry was the one who not only sensed danger with the man who picked them up while hitch-hiking but also took action to get them out of a dangerous situation. For weeks (if not longer) he was able to break into a neighbor's house to play video games. I really want Oleg to come through this safe and sound. After all, he has to be there to fight crime alongside Stan and Henry in my hypothetical spin-off. Henry still does the tech/computer stuff, and now they can get missions/assignments through all of Henry's boarding school connections. The three of them will be like a cross between the Pheonix Foundation and the A-Team. 

So...in my fantasy.....Elizabeth and Philip arrive at the safe house one fine day to meet with Claudia and are rather taken aback to see Henry there... Seems that he figured out, along the way, that since parents are familiar with their kids and expect them to be around, they don't always register on parental/spy 'radar' as someone who is tailing them - (especially when said parents are overworked, and totally worn out) -...which Henry has been doing on the down-low for a few years - ever since he (math genius and  video game freak that he is) put two and two together and came up with the only other explanation for his parents' behavior and absences - as Conan Doyle once attributed to Sherlock Holmes - (paraphrased) 'when all other possibilities have been eliminated, that which remains, no matter how implausible, must be the truth'.

That's how he knew to figure out some of what his parents were really doing (even if he didn't know quite for whom his parents were working )  and found the safe house. He, after convincing Claudia that he was no threat during a long, tense (remembering Henry after he got caught asleep in front of a video game in the neighbor's house) conversation culminating in Henry's faith in his parents decisions, has been training, using his involvement in sports to keep himself toned and ready for the next level.

Anyhow...the plan he and Claudia have concocted - (both of them in agreement that Elizabeth DOES have a dangerous and untenable blind spot where Paige is concerned) - was to allow him/Henry to continue in the educational and career paths most useful to the Motherland (FBI - quite logical given Henry's long association with Beeman, or maybe CIA, or maybe simply, and invisibly, working his way up through the ranks in some other Federal Agency - Henry does have time on his side)- while Philip and Elizabeth and Paige get repatriated/exfiltrated to Mother Russia...probably a family vacation that Henry HAS to skip because he is taking summer courses that will allow him to get into/accelerate his college entrance, which serendipitously keeps him from being a part of the oh-so-tragic accident that befalls Philip and Elizabeth and Paige while on said family vacation.

This will allow Henry to keep the family homestead, and continue his longtime-since-childhood friendship with Stan (who moved into Henry's neighborhood long after the Jennings moved in, so nothing suspicious there -  and also VERY useful) and will provide him a cover of sudden family grief for any immature/impulsive response he may have to any unexpected circumstance (i.e. outside 'agencies' trying to get Henry to go live with/be fostered by other adults until he is of legal age - which will all depend on how old he is when P&E&P depart and what the legal requirements of adulthood are in his established domicile, or possible investigations/snooping/questions about his family's demise, yada, yada, yada, but you get the picture.) 

He could end up as a really, really deep plant with a near rock solid background (providing, of course, that the truth of P&E's continued existence in Russia remains secret - which could have a monkey wrench or two because of a VERY unhappy Paige's unthinking/ or just plain old egocentrically stupid antics) which would be exactly what the Center wants. 

I have NEVER seen Paige as fulfilling the Russian dreams of a 2nd generation American born 'spy', nor could I believe they would engage in such a plan without second party confirmation of her physical and mental aptitude for such training, and could only be under true consideration because Elizabeth sugar-coated her/Paige's behavior and emotional makeup. Anyhow, that's my story ,and I'm sticking to it.

Back in the dark ages, you shoulda seen the plans I had for Dallas! :)

 

ETA: I really hope Paige is miserable and can only find suitable employment as a babysitter for Martha and the (probably) several orphans she/Martha takes under her wing. Whatever failings she has, Martha was loyal to 'Clark' even when she knew she shouldn't be - probably spurred in part by her awful loneliness - and I'd love to see her happy and being able to feel truly fulfilled as well as useful 0 any maybe even getting a larger, well-appointed home for her and the kids. Paige, OTOH, has been a totally self-centered PITA.

Edited April 1, 2018 by becauseIsaidso
something I thought of the second I hit the Submit button

[Umbelina]

Well, that would certainly explain the 3 year time jump.  Much easier to tell us all that happened than actually have to show that.  Much better to dig holes.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Right, I was making the distinction between Claudia's interest, which was relatively impersonal and just about the Centre's orders, and what actually went down between Philip and Elizabeth and Paige. Henry hasn't given the Jennings any reason to tell him the truth so there's no confusion there, but it's weird that the Centre doesn't have any interest in Henry that we've seen. On paper he's just as valuable as Paige. Maybe moreso now that he's at this prep school. There's no reason they wouldn't be open about that interest given how things are going with Paige.

I thought the Centre giving the family (but really Henry) the computer showed interest, but that does not seem to have paid off - at least not yet.

[Sarah 103]

4 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

But then, Paige was 15 when she learned the truth and even though she told her pastor, she's their greatest success story. Of course, a lot of that is probably down to Paige herself than her age, but still.

But I get what you're saying--maybe they decided it would be better to wait a little longer. But they'd still want the kid at home, so that only gives you probably until 18. 

I'm glad you got my point. The maturity difference between 15 and 17 can be light-years depending on the kid.