S01.E10: No Man's Land, Part Two

[Notwisconsin]

Quote

A crisis at the O. I. leaves both Howards stranded. Season Finale

[marinw]

Well that was violent.

I enjoyed the atmosphere of this show but had some trouble following the plot.

[shapeshifter]

I guess there are supposed to be some unknowns, but probably not as many as I have.

Like: Is there one "upstairs" or two (one on each side)? 

I wonder if one of the primary inspirations of the story was "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and perhaps also, "we are our own worst enemies."

Now that Peter and Clare know each other's secrets, will Peter still need prostitutes?

Will the Slit Mouthed Assassin return next season? I hope not. But then will STARZ still have to fulfill an obligatory number of explicit sex scenes with someone else even if they are not germane to the plot? I suppose at least when the episodes get cut for time to eventually air on network TV (like ION) at least they will have something to cut that won't matter. But there weren't any in the finale, so I don't know how that works.

Pope was a kind of Pope. Will he be replaced?

Poor meek Howard. His sanctimoniousness has landed him in solitary. Won't Other Emily resent Ian when she discovers what has become of meek Howard?

Other Howard placing the more red purple flowers (irises?) next to the more blue purple flowers (or was it the other way around?) was very reminiscent of Fringe. 

How long until season 2?

[Notwisconsin]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I guess there are supposed to be some unknowns, but probably not as many as I have.

Like: Is there one "upstairs" or two (one on each side)?

Pope was a kind of Pope. Will he be replaced?

Poor meek Howard. His sanctimoniousness has landed him in solitary. Won't Other Emily resent Ian when she discovers what has become of meek Howard?

How long until season 2?

I think "upstairs" is on earth 3.

probably not. I don't know if he's actually dead.

What else was he supposed to do? I think she resents him already.

Six months to a year. After all, filming has already started.

[scrb]

Justin Marks said there is no there there about management, on both sides.  That was in the little after the episode segment they have up on demand.

They made the dubious choice of putting Quayle in charge of finding the moles -- well he's found the main mole already but for whatever unfathomable reason, he's not giving her up.

Now that all the security guys are gone and Howard Prime isn't going to rat him out, Clare is going to continue to be able to plot and get intel.

Why is Peter so partial to her?  He was cheating on her but now that she's a double who snatched away the real Clare, he's intrigued?  She took down a trained, armed security guy.  Peter better not cross her and sleep with one eye open.  Even then, he may not be a match for her if it comes down to a fight.

 

Marks also seems proud that both Howards are now becoming more like the other.  Meek Howard kills Pope in one blow while Howard Prime is becoming sentimental about alpha Emily.

 

I don't understand how they'd try to go back to a semblance of normality in season 2, which is what it sounds like they're going to do try to do.  They crossed the Crossing but Pope sounded confident that he could still get meek Howard back across if he wanted to.  If MH was willing to work for him.

 

The conspirators were hoping that the Prime world would claim Angel Eyes and then that would be tantamount to a full declaration of war.  But Fancher thought he could extract heavy reparations from Prime if they claimed Angel Eyes.  So again, the conspiracy makes little sense.

Now that Pope is dead, will there still be a conspiracy?  The school marm is still out there so maybe they are establishing a new school but it would take years before they have more graduates.

[Rade]

Real Clare was going to leave him and then D2 Clare showed up to the rescue fixing the marriage/Peters job by killing her double and even had a baby with Quayle not to mention she seen the security guy from across the street so he had it coming. If I was Quayle i'd be sleeping like a baby.

[Cthulhudrew]

15 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Like: Is there one "upstairs" or two (one on each side)? 

Will the Slit Mouthed Assassin return next season? I hope not. But then will STARZ still have to fulfill an obligatory number of explicit sex scenes with someone else even if they are not germane to the plot? I suppose at least when the episodes get cut for time to eventually air on network TV (like ION) at least they will have something to cut that won't matter. But there weren't any in the finale, so I don't know how that works.

A) I noticed that it looked like there were two spokesmen both providing two sets of "management" opinions. So I'm guessing there is a management on both sides. (Maybe it's the same "Management" that was behind Michael Weston's Burn Notice).

I really hope Nadia/Baldwin doesn't come back. I got really tired of her puppy dog eyes style of acting, but mostly I just found her annoying for two reasons: 1) the obligatory Starz sex object casting that you allude to, as well as 2) the fact that she was pretty well isolated in a plot that didn't involve the rest of the show except in a few isolated incidents. That kind of silo storytelling works fine in novels, but in a tv show or film it really doesn't. Keeping part of your cast in a bubble from the rest of it in an ensemble show makes it hard to actually care about the isolated character.

[Haleth]

Does it seem like "management" is the same entity for both sides?  It just seemed strange that both "upstairs" ruled in favor of doing nothing about the dead guy. Is there another agenda?

I was surprised to see Aldrich get shot.  I'm also surprised the doors weren't shut long ago.  Why did this world even want a diplomatic relationship?  What was either side getting from that?

Poor meek Howard. 

[wanderingstar]

I kept thinking the debate over what to do with Angel Eyes was alluding to this incident on the Berlin Wall.

Solid finale, but I couldn't help feeling that the writers were putting everything back to status quo. I hope that doesn't meant they've run out of ideas with what to do with this world. 

I can't stand Clare, and have no idea why Peter - and now Howard Prime - are covering for her.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Gillian Rosh

[Quilt Fairy]

21 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

How long until season 2?

According to the Starz promo at the end, 2019.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Quilt Fairy

[Notwisconsin]

5 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

According to the Starz promo at the end, 2019.

Which is less than a year from now...I saw auto inspection stickers dated 2020...

[shapeshifter]

15 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I kept thinking the debate over what to do with Angel Eyes was alluding to this incident on the Berlin Wall.

Wow. Lots of relevant source material there. I wonder how much of it is contributing to what we see.
Note to self (looking at IMDb), latest insomnia cure: Look up Wikipedia pages for these:
 

Quote

Series Writing Credits  

• Justin Marks ...(created by) (10 episodes, 2017-2018)
• Amy Berg ...(2 episodes, 2018)
• Justin Britt-Gibson ...(2 episodes, 2018)
• Erin Levy ...(2 episodes, 2018)
• Gianna Sobol ...(2 episodes, 2018)
• Zak Schwartz ...(1 episode, 2018)

[Jack Kerouac]

Most interesting episode of the season. Hate Clare, so not quite sure what they are going to do with her. Why the Hell is Quayle keeping her around?

[mjc570]

7 minutes ago, Jack Kerouac said:

Why the Hell is Quayle keeping her around?

She's the mother of his child, plus turning her in will have negative repercussions on his career.

[scrb]

7 minutes ago, mjc570 said:

She's the mother of his child, plus turning her in will have negative repercussions on his career.

I think it's more the latter.

It would make him look bad to be married to the mole all these years and be the source of a significant security breach.

But once Fancher found out his real daughter is gone, he no longer owes Peter any help with his career.

It makes sense but shows that Peter cares more about his career than doing the right thing.

If he cared about Clare in any way, he wouldn't have been cheating on her.

Still doesn't make sense that Howard Prime would want to keep that secret.

[Jack Kerouac]

53 minutes ago, scrb said:

Still doesn't make sense that Howard Prime would want to keep that secret.

Leverage for later.

[Haleth]

And why would he let Baldwin go?

[scrb]

Probably to keep that character around for more topless scenes.

[wanderingstar]

Baldwin is such a cipher. If they bring her back for season 2, she's got to have more of a purpose. The writers failed to bring her into the main story in a meaningful way. They didn't even try to make her individual story all that interesting. I didn't care about her girlfriend breaking up with her because the writers gave me no reason to invest in that relationship. For writers who so carefully calibrated every other aspect of this show, the Baldwin misfire is glaring.

[spottedreptile]

10 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Baldwin is such a cipher. If they bring her back for season 2, she's got to have more of a purpose. The writers failed to bring her into the main story in a meaningful way. They didn't even try to make her individual story all that interesting. I didn't care about her girlfriend breaking up with her because the writers gave me no reason to invest in that relationship. For writers who so carefully calibrated every other aspect of this show, the Baldwin misfire is glaring.

She would have been more interesting if they'd stuck to her backstory with Nadia the violinist and their father, and avoided all those superfluous lesbian scenes which seem to titillate male directors but which leave me stone cold as do most sex scenes - it's really not a spectator sport, on the screen anyway. But all non-network shows aggressively pursue it, and Starz has form - look at Black Sails, I lost count of the number of times I FF'd past Max and Eleanor or whichever pairing it was boring me into oblivion. 

I'm  not sure what the end game of the show is yet. But I thought that about Fringe after the first season, and there was a point somewhere during the second where it suddenly coalesced for me into an aha moment - "that's what this show is about!" But haven't found it here yet, though I am def intrigued. The diplomacy angle, the grubby aspects of human nature on both sides, and the horse-trading of tech and other "differences" was something I'd like to see more of. Just hope it doesn't degenerate into soap. 

[jcin617]

At least one side was smart enough to finally close the border.

As for management, I had a strange thought that perhaps its a group of people who, during whatever incident split reality, didn't get split - ergo, they occupy both worlds simultaneously.

[shapeshifter]

6 minutes ago, jcin617 said:

As for management, I had a strange thought that perhaps its a group of people who, during whatever incident split reality, didn't get split - ergo, they occupy both worlds simultaneously.

That is an elegantly simple explanation that could be a metaphor for a (spiritual) Higher Power and/or could hold the key to the whys and hows of the split.

 

 

7 hours ago, spottedreptile said:

She would have been more interesting if they'd stuck to her backstory with Nadia the violinist and their father, and avoided all those superfluous lesbian scenes which seem to titillate male directors but which leave me stone cold as do most sex scenes - it's really not a spectator sport

Ha! Well put: "[sex is] really not a spectator sport."

I wonder if all the Baldwin scenes were shot separately to save money since they wouldn't need the entire cast present (I don't know how the financial end works) and maybe she was originally written into all of the scenes with murders. Not only was she not part of the main story, but she wasn't part of the assassins in general.

Also, with her bearing the mythological symbol of the Slit Mouth woman assasin, she should have been dreaded by at least either the populous or the audience, but she was not feared by either. In the end her lover seemed more annoyed than terrified.

[meira.hand]

On 4/1/2018 at 11:48 AM, shapeshifter said:

Other Howard placing the more red purple flowers (irises?) next to the more blue purple flowers (or was it the other way around?)

Its interesting that I took from the flowers scene was the fact that he put the fresh ones next to the old ones, while meek Howard always threw away the old ones first (which is what you are supposed to do, otherwise they spoil quicker). It looked to me like he was trying to be a little more like him but did not understand the essentials of care.

[mjc570]

51 minutes ago, meira.hand said:

Its interesting that I took from the flowers scene was the fact that he put the fresh ones next to the old ones, while meek Howard always threw away the old ones first (which is what you are supposed to do, otherwise they spoil quicker). It looked to me like he was trying to be a little more like him but did not understand the essentials of care.

I took it to mean that he was picking up on more Meek Howard mannerisms so as to be more believable as him, but is more practical.  I din't grow up on a world of want, but I would never throw out 1-day old flowers, I've mixed different vintages (especially when different types of flowers), so he could do that or he  just not buy new ones every day.  I have to admit that I thought that an inspired directing choice, to show how mindless and useless meek Howard was.. 

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, meira.hand said:

On 4/1/2018 at 3:48 AM, shapeshifter said:

Other Howard placing the more red purple flowers (irises?) next to the more blue purple flowers (or was it the other way around?)

Its interesting that I took from the flowers scene was the fact that he put the fresh ones next to the old ones, while meek Howard always threw away the old ones first (which is what you are supposed to do, otherwise they spoil quicker). It looked to me like he was trying to be a little more like him but did not understand the essentials of care.

1 hour ago, mjc570 said:

I took it to mean that he was picking up on more Meek Howard mannerisms so as to be more believable as him, but is more practical.  I din't grow up on a world of want, but I would never throw out 1-day old flowers, I've mixed different vintages (especially when different types of flowers), so he could do that or he  just not buy new ones every day.  I have to admit that I thought that an inspired directing choice, to show how mindless and useless meek Howard was.. 

Sounds like a college student could write a lengthy paper on "The Significance of the Hospital Beside Flowers of Counterpoint," heh.

But, @mjc570, I don't follow your meaning regarding:

1 hour ago, mjc570 said:

I have to admit that I thought that an inspired directing choice, to show how mindless and useless meek Howard was.. 

Do you see no value in the flowers since she was unconscious? The flowers are a kind of performance that tells those caring for Emily that she is someone who has loved ones who have not given up on her. They also serve to make the Howards at least appear to be a loving person.

[mjc570]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

But, @mjc570, I don't follow your meaning regarding:

Do you see no value in the flowers since she was unconscious? The flowers are a kind of performance that tells those caring for Emily that she is someone who has loved ones who have not given up on her. They also serve to make the Howards at least appear to be a loving person.

Sorry, should have made myself clearer.  It wasn't bringing the flowers that I was referencing - it was bringing new ones every day and throwing out the old ones.   I think that was a wasteful and mindless  routine - like his job, where he did the same limited actions every day for years.  I don't think Emily's carers would have thought he didn't love her if her  if he had brought her favorite flowers every couple of days. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by mjc570
to make myself clearer, hopefully

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, mjc570 said:

Sorry, should have made myself clearer.  It wasn't bringing the flowers that I was referencing - it was bringing new ones every day and throwing out the old ones.   I think that was a wasteful and mindless  routine - like his job, where he did the same limited actions every day for years.  I don't think Emily's carers would have thought he didn't love her if her  if he had brought her favorite flowers every couple of days. 

A little bit clearer. :-)

If someone did write a dissertation on the flowers, comparing and contrasting the two Howards' handling of the flowers could consume five chapters on different aspects, LOL. Meek Howard had a routine that gave him comfort, whereas for Badass Howard it is a chore that he can't quite get right, but I bet Bad Howard will grow to appreciate the ritual. 

Now I want the show to gain a wider audience just so I can write something substantive about the flowers when my job goes to half time later this year.  Or maybe I should just stick with painting pictures of people and flowers and water.

[Notwisconsin]

On 4/3/2018 at 1:21 PM, shapeshifter said:

Ha! Well put: "[sex is] really not a spectator sport."

Tell that to the "Adult entertainment" industry, which I've been told is very profitable.

[misstwpherecool]

This seems like a reconfigured Cold War spy novel or movie. In many of those stories the bad guys win or the spy/mole is revealed at the end. In this case they won.

Baldwin is psycho which will be her downfall wanting to watch people die. And as with many of these super duper under cover spies with mad combat skills with little time to workout or practice Quayles wife gets the upper hand on the agent? Just as bad as the red shirt security guards who stood up right in a non combat stance making themselves a high profile target.

Hope 'management' doesn't get to far fetched.

I think part of the point of this epi was that the Howards became more like each other as part of a nature or nurture debate.

If Quayle's wife's dad isn't part of this if he finds out she's an imposter he could be the one to wind up taking her out.

Also in Cold War Berlin with a wall wasn't the area near the wall filled with mines considered 'no mans land'. Also heard the East German would let a killed escapee's body sit for hours as an example.

Edited June 11, 2018 by misstwpherecool

[Coxfires]

So I loved the concept, the acting and the overall story but I feel the direction could be more dynamic at times. I felt the show gained interest after Claire’s reveal, and they could get rid of Baldwin now honestly 

I’ll still tune in for S2, because there is much more to love than dislike but I could do with a little more edge / speed

[shapeshifter]

10 minutes ago, Coxfires said:

So I loved the concept, the acting and the overall story but I feel the direction could be more dynamic at times. I felt the show gained interest after Claire’s reveal, and they could get rid of Baldwin now honestly 

I’ll still tune in for S2, because there is much more to love than dislike but I could do with a little more edge / speed

I'm okay with a plodding pace, but, yeah, I just really hope Baldwin/Sara Serraiocco has another gig and they write her out quickly.

[Coxfires]

On 16/06/2018 at 8:34 PM, shapeshifter said:

I'm okay with a plodding pace, but, yeah, I just really hope Baldwin/Sara Serraiocco has another gig and they write her out quickly.

I am more than fine with the pace of the storytelling, it is more the direction that I found a bit too slow. I remember falling asleep in the middle of 1 or 2 of the episodes of the first half of the season

[mxc90]

Finally binged this week.

I'm glad Pope got what he deserved!

I'm surprised that "split" happened in the 80s and many years later the general public doesn't know or news/rumors of the event wasn't leaked with the amount of people involved.

Edited November 11, 2018 by mxc90

[Dowel Jones]

I was thinking much the same thing, as the plot was so plodding most of the time that I found myself wandering into "what if?".  How did the portal come to be discovered?  How long did it take to build that complex tunnel system (in Berlin, no less)?  Why did they even want to have a connection?  What does it serve either world?  And, perhaps most telling, leave it to government to set up a bloated bureaucracy to deal with it.  Management, Strategy, Housekeeping, Accounting, Interface, Diplomacy.  Who's paying for all of that?

[shapeshifter]

11 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

leave it to government to set up a bloated bureaucracy to deal with it.  Management, Strategy, Housekeeping, Accounting, Interface, Diplomacy.  Who's paying for all of that?

Taxpayers? Maybe in the show-verse, German health care expenses are more like real life U.S.

[WaltersHair]

Just discovered Counterpart and power watched it so Starz won't spoil it for me more than it has already (thank you for putting the trailer for season 2 before every single episode so I'll know who survived corporate brains/sarcasm)

This reminded me very much of old cold war movies like The Spy Who Came In From The Cold. Not only does the Berlin Wall have sad no man's land stories but there was a tragic story about a Bosnian couple dubbed Romeo and Juliet. There's also a great movie with No Man's Land title that I saw years ago that's a tragic/comedy.

I keep thinking they were just going to leave that assassin up against the wall and file past him like the bodies up on Mount Everest. 

Very intrigued with the series and hope it can live up to season 1. Will be watching Sunday.

[Ottis]

Wait, what? I did skip some of this season, but Emily in the hospital is conscious? Did she just come out of it? Was she faking the whole time (seems impossible)? I know she realized which Howard it was so she responded, but what has she been doing all this time there? 

[wilnil]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 11:04 AM, Ottis said:

Wait, what? I did skip some of this season, but Emily in the hospital is conscious? Did she just come out of it? Was she faking the whole time (seems impossible)? I know she realized which Howard it was so she responded, but what has she been doing all this time there? 

I forget which Season 1 episode it happened in (I know it was one of the last ones), but yes, she comes out of the coma in that episode, though she isn't speaking at all, just awake, when it happens. 

[AudienceofOne]

That was a really good season of television. It was interesting, well-acted and thoughtful. If I have a problem, it's that I can't quite get my brain around what the show is actually about. And I don't meant that as a reflection of the plot - I didn't find the plot hard to follow. Or about the underpinning themes - they're fine too. But I feel like the show is circling around a broader point that I'm not seeing. In particular, they did some work setting up the characters for season 2 that felt a bit disjointed and not entirely supported by the characterisations.

On 6/16/2018 at 8:52 PM, Coxfires said:

I felt the show gained interest after Claire’s reveal, and they could get rid of Baldwin now honestly 

This show is developing a bit of an issue with its female characters, especially with Claire and The Annoyer but also with Emily as well. When all your female characters are beautiful, mysterious and untrustworthy you have a Woman Problem. I don't want to use the M word but if I wanted to I probably could. This is a real issue with the spy genre and any hope I may have that they'd eliminate it by 2019 is long since dead. 

On 4/4/2018 at 3:02 AM, jcin617 said:

At least one side was smart enough to finally close the border.

I don't agree this was 'smart'. Closing your borders never works really. You always need to keep the lines of communication open. This just makes it less likely they'll come to a resolution and more likely it'll end in war. Since war between the two sides is essentially a war between ourselves, this makes Pope's statement about this being a (social) Darwinian fight for survival interesting (I can't even quote his misunderstanding of evolution without caveating it - God this philosophy is destructive). For some people, even the existence of an Other is enough to scare them to violence. Even if those people are so like us as to be identical. 

I feel like setting this in Berlin really is a masterstroke. The line between the two Germany's was literally a divide between us and us in the same way this is and any hatred of the Other was ultimately a hatred of Us. In this, the show is doing a critique of racism and bigotry extremely well by making the Other outside the Wall literally ourselves. The Glass, Darkly. 

Overall, this is a good show and I'm looking forward to season 2. 

Edited February 28, 2019 by AudienceofOne