S04.E06: The Laws Of Gods And Men 2014.05.11

[Helena Dax]

 

I don't follow - how is that implied by their scene?

No, it wasn't, that's the point. I was hoping to find some hint.

[Alapaki]

I really didn't care for the Yara/Theon scene.  Mainly for the reasons stated already.  From everything we've been told about how bad-ass the Ironborn (and Yara in particular) are, why would we believe that a few dogs would make them turn and run like the Three Stooges?  When they're armed?  When they out-number and out-arm the guy with the key to the kennels?  

 

I think having Yara and Theon meet up this early may have another one of those "butterfly effects", and result in a more radical (and possibly unsatisfying) departure from the books down the line.  

 

The offer by Jaime to Tywin certainly suited Tywin.  But it also highlighted how "taking the Black" could be used as an "escape hatch" by a judge/tribunal to exercise "mercy" or avoid imposing what might be perceived as a harsh but "necessary" (for purposes of consistency and dependability of "the law") Justice.  And Tyrion's skepticism because of the way Ned ended up highlighted how badly Joffrey's stupidity and ruthlessness had screwed things up for a lot of other people.

 

It's an interesting contrast that Dany refused to exercise Mercy to prove a point, and we're seeing that it's complicated things for her.  Tywin may want to exercise Mercy to avoid complicating things for himself, but has essentially been foreclosed from doing so.

[Holmbo]

By the way I love the speculations this episode has brought forth for non book readers. Who's gonna fight who? Who will die?
I love that no one is able to guess right about the deaths at this point.

Sometimes they bring up stuff that I wish would happen on the show though :)

[Fen]

Also, yay for the return of Sallador Saan!!

 

I love Sallador.  If Stannis makes it to the throne, I want Sallador as Master of Ships.

 

Alfie Allen is brilliant as poor Theon - traumatised beyond recognition.

 

Stannis paused so long before sitting down in the Iron Bank that I thought my stream had frozen.  That was hilarious. 

 

I'm not sure the Yara storyline paid off much - it felt like a lot of build-up for little pay-off.  It also made the Iron Born look utterly useless again.

[GreyBunny]

They did invade the Dreadfort by climbing the walls.  If they were leaving the same way, they’d need Theon conscious and cooperative to climb back down the ropes, so I’ll give them a pass on that one.

 

I think that would be poor planning on their part.  They knew Theon was being mutilated and very likely beaten, starved, or mistreated in other ways and probably would be too weak or injured to climb down on his own.  They had to know they might have to loop some rope around him and lower him down to get him out of there. 

 

Ramsay is using the same calendar Mance and Stannis are using.

 

Heh!

 

I laughed at Mace being lower in the chair hierarchy than even Pycele.  The farthest away from Tywin.

 

I loved the contrast between Mace and Oberyn.  Mace is such a suckup and obviously proud to be Tywin's fetch-boy.  Meanwhile, Oberyn didn't even turn around and look when Tywin entered the room and walked past.  The lack of fucks that man gives would satisfy the world's energy demand for the next 50 years.

Edited May 13, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Joystickenvy]

The Yara storyline was pretty unsatisfying and felt much like the Craster's SL.....something inserted merely to get a bit if screen time for those characters that ultimately doesn't advance the story much.

Anyone else get a serious Gollum vibe from Reek?

The trial probably would have been more fun if I didn't know what would happen. I don't like the idea of Shae turning on Tyrion because of jealousy. I'm hoping she was paid off or otherwise co-ereced. Her body language and facial expressions looked more like regret than anger, but maybe that's wishful thinking.

My unsullied mom loved the trial and was surprised Shae turned on him.

I agree that Tywin was probably planning on sending Tyrion to the wall all along. I'm inclined to believe maneuvering Tyrion to the wall & getting Tommen as an upgrade to Joff was motivation for Tywin to be involved in the Joff plot. Jaime going to Casterly Rock is the cherry on top....until Cersei's plotting ruined it all by bringing in Shae anyhow.

[Bannon]

Show Shae has been portrayed in a way that jealousy or greed don't make much sense as motivation. She could have had a very nice life in nicer places than King's Landing, after all, and the idea of sexually jealous, to the point of killing,  prostitute just doesn't make a lot of sense, either.

 

It seems to me that what makes the most sense is Cersei or Tywin telling her that the only way she and Tyrion live is for her to falsely testify, with Tyrion going to The Wall. Nobody planned on Tyrion becoming so disgusted that he demands trial by combat.

 

If they don't depart from the book., it won't be easy to have Tyrion kill Shae in a way that makes sense. Tyrion must at least suspect that she is being coerced. 

Edited May 13, 2014 by Bannon

[Rhondinella]

I THINK the show is trying to sell us on Shae having actually been in love with Tyrion (contra the books) and being so scorned at his rejection that she's willing to say anything to get back at him.  To me that's the only purpose of having the breakup scene earlier in the season.  Because otherwise they would have been de facto broken up by the fact that Tyrion got thrown in prison.  Not sure I'm completely buying it either, but I think that's what they are intending.

 

I love Sallador.  If Stannis makes it to the throne, I want Sallador as Master of Ships.

 

 

I want that actor to come to my house and talk to me every day.  His accent just makes me happy.

[Unknown poster]

I'm curious how the deal between Tywin and Jamie will effect the events post trial. In the book, of course, Jamie breaks Tyrion out of his cell to spare his life, but would he take that kind of risk to save him from the nights watch? I assume we will get another twist before then, and I've got a few ideas.

1) Tywin calls off the deal in response to Tyrion's outburst. Dislike it, seems too rash and stupid for someone like Tywin.

2) we get some explanation that choosing a trial by combat negates your right to plead for mercy if you are deemed guilty. This seems a bit complicated.

3) Cersei catches wind of the agreement, and is not pleased. Perhaps she makes plans to have Tyrion killed, either in his cell, or on his way to the wall. Jamie discovers her plan, and decides the only way to save his brother is to get him out of the Capitol, and into hiding. I like this the best.

Any thoughts?

[yellowfred]

Well, the whole deal was that Tyrion was supposed to ask for mercy after he was found guilty at the trial.  I think he kind of mucked the whole plan up when he asked for a trial by combat.  Even after the trial by combat, I doubt Tyrion will be willing to ask for mercy, so Jaime might free him to basically save him from his own stubbornness.  

[seamusk]

1.  Did she testify out of jealous?  Fuck. I hate that theory. 

 

2.  Was she paid off by Tywin?  This seems doubtful.  Tywin was the head Judge.  He didn't need Shae to have Tyrion found guilty.  Also, the case was Tyrion accused by Cersei.  She was the crown's (Cersei's) witness.  We know Cersei likes the overkill and isn't very smart.

 

3.  I'd like it better if Shae cut a deal with Cersei to save Tyrion's life by testifying against him and Cersei promising to save Tyrion and send him away with Shae.  Only Shae would be stupid to believe her.  It's not like the girl's got brains to spare.

 

I'm pretty sure it's 1 and either 2 or 3.  I don't think it's mutually exclusive that she did it out of jealousy vs out of striking a deal with either Tywin or Cersei.  It makes the most sense to me as something she did out of jealousy and also out of practicality.  Show Shae clearly displays signs of jealousy.  But I think she is also a good survivalist and therefore worked out a deal with someone in order to preserve herself. Both of these things provide motivation for her together, rather than in opposition.

 

 

Show Shae has been portrayed in a way that jealousy or greed don't make much sense as motivation.

 

I disagree with this.  I think show Shae has been set up to show jealousy more than book Shae.  Specifically, Tyrion has shunned her sexually for weeks (while we get brief updates on this this would be something that would affect a lover intensely) and then chased her out of town against her will and rather coldly (even if the coldness was necessary).  I think that the main issue here might just be that there wasn't enough screen time to demonstrate all of this effectively/convincingly.  

 

This, btw, is I think the most difficult challenge for the television adaptation.  There are so many story lines that sometimes characters transitions, which are a strength of the books and even of the show when they give them enough time, seem to happen pretty fast at times and a lot of that development is left off screen.  It's somewhat necessary I think though.  Or at least, it's hard to say that it isn't working well when the show is so damn popular.  My unsullied girlfriend is completely engulfed in the story the show is telling.  Anecdotal, but backs up the ridiculous ratings.

[GreyBunny]

I'm curious how the deal between Tywin and Jamie will effect the events post trial. In the book, of course, Jamie breaks Tyrion out of his cell to spare his life, but would he take that kind of risk to save him from the nights watch? I assume we will get another twist before then, and I've got a few ideas.

1) Tywin calls off the deal in response to Tyrion's outburst. Dislike it, seems too rash and stupid for someone like Tywin.

2) we get some explanation that choosing a trial by combat negates your right to plead for mercy if you are deemed guilty. This seems a bit complicated.

3) Cersei catches wind of the agreement, and is not pleased. Perhaps she makes plans to have Tyrion killed, either in his cell, or on his way to the wall. Jamie discovers her plan, and decides the only way to save his brother is to get him out of the Capitol, and into hiding. I like this the best.

Any thoughts?

 

Hmmm.

 

1)  It makes sense to me that Tywin would call the deal off.  Tyrion, in their minds, pretty much incriminated himself and insulted everyone in the room so Tywin would cut his losses and leave Tyrion to his new fate.

 

2)  I think if you choose trial by combat the only options for the outcome are freedom or death.  Being sent to the Wall while your champion had fought to his death wouldn't make sense to me, nor would any champion risk death so someone else could still be allowed to live but in a cold place.  The stakes have to be high and absolute.

 

3)  I think Cersei didn't know about the plan between Jaime and Tywin and was determined to have Tyrion killed and, thanks to her spy, knew Shae was the way to get to him.   I think Jaime will follow the book and decide to break Tyrion out of his cell after Oberyn is killed.

Edited May 13, 2014 by GreyBunny

[dr pepper]

It does seem strange that Shae is unable to comprehend when Tyrion says she is in danger and wants to send her away for her own safety.

[Independent George]

The Shae thing is a tough choice. A direct translation of book!Shae would have been terrible, because she is such an (intentionally) shallow character. That's fine for a novel where she can disappear for a hundred pages at a time, but it would have been awful to watch on television.

 

This is precisely what I was worried about in S2-S3 - fleshing out Shae's character on screen, and making their relationship more than it was in the books had real benefits back then, but leads to unfortunate implications now if the plot plays out the same way. 

[Holmbo]

 

1.  Did she testify out of jealous?  Fuck. I hate that theory.

    

    2.  Was she paid off by Tywin?  This seems doubtful.  Tywin was the head Judge.  He didn't need Shae to have Tyrion found guilty.  Also, the case was Tyrion accused by Cersei.  She was the crown's (Cersei's) witness.  We know Cersei likes the overkill and isn't very smart.

    

    3.  I'd like it better if Shae cut a deal with Cersei to save Tyrion's life by testifying against him and Cersei promising to save Tyrion and send him away with Shae.  Only Shae would be stupid to believe her.  It's not like the girl's got brains to spare.

 

Now that I think about it I wonder if it can't be 3 after all. The important part to advance the plot is for Tyrion to think she did it because of 1.

That might have been the point of the breakup scene. Rather than to give Shae a reason for betraying Tyrion it was there to get Tyrion to think she had a reason. This would make it possible for her to end up in Tywin's bed too in a believable way. If she did it because of jealousy why the hell would she sleep with Tywin?

Also I think that explanation would be the most liked by viewers because that way Shae is consistent. She's been built up as a protective character and not petty. She treated Sansa very nice even though she thought Tyrion was in love with her.

 

But I'm not sure that's the way they're taking. To be honest they don't seem to have given much thought to Shae's consistency as a character so far.

 

However it goes I'm very curious to see how they will handle the death scene. I can't see Shae just laying there meekly and letting Tyrion strangle her. And with what? There's not even a hand chain.

[WearyTraveler]

There's no shortage of material to strangle someone in one of those bedrooms.  The cord they use to tie the bed's curtains would be a good choice, for instance.  Or they could choose to have him murder her some other way, perhaps sticking a fire poker in her belly.  If there's something book and TV Westeros have in common it's that there's a million and one ways to die  :)

 

As for the Shae character, I think the show is choosing to do a pretty straightforward "woman retaliates after she's been cast aside, insulted and sent away".  I think show!Shae is hurt by Tyrion's actions in past episodes including him refusing to have sex with her, calling her a whore, and trying to send her away to Essos.  I don't see her betrayal on the show as out of character at all.

 

Yes, she was portrayed as truly loving Tyrion and being protective of Sansa, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't feel hurt and betrayed by Tyrion all the same, or that she would take the moral high road and not act on her feelings.  She thinks Tyrion has cast her aside and abandoned her, why wouldn't she lash out at him?

When it comes to Shae's TV character, the part I found hard to swallow was that she never seemed to understand how much danger she was in, despite Tyrion's repeated warnings.  This was true of book!Shae, as well, but easier to swallow on the book because book!Shae was such a shallow, one-dimensional character.  Then again, neither book!Tyrion nor show!Tyrion ever provided enough explanations of the dangers to Shae.  It was always "my father will have you killed", "my sister will have you tortured" with no specific examples to back up that reasoning.  For all Shae knew Tyrion could have been paranoid, or exaggerating, or augmenting the dangers to keep her at arm's length.

In the books Shae's lack of concern for the dangers is somewhat explained by her being a survivor and a greedy little minx.  She was not concerned by the dangers because she knew whatever went down, she'd play it in her best interest.  She'd bed whoever had the power, allied herself with the surest choice and live to see another day.  On the show, Shae is portrayed as smarter than your average Westerosi whore, so, it's more difficult to understand why she's so nonplussed about the dangers of staying in KL and continuing to see Tyrion.  But the show has also emphasized Shae's desire to run away with Tyrion because she loved him and really wanted to make a life with him, so, maybe the message was that she understood the dangers and was just trying to convince Tyrion to run away from them with her.  Unfortunately, the book is better at explaining Tyrion's motives for not wanting to go away than the show has been.  In the books money and comfort are factors, but there are also tons of explanations about what it means to be a dwarf in that world (in Westeros and Essos), but, on the show we haven't really seen all the implications of being a dwarf in that society, so, Tyrion's reluctance to leave comes off a bit more petty and selfish than in the books.
 

[Meredith Quill]

However it goes I'm very curious to see how they will handle the death scene. I can't see Shae just laying there meekly and letting Tyrion strangle her. And with what? There's not even a hand chain.

Agreed, she wouldn't just meekly let him kill her. The show may not even have him kill her by strangling her, but by some other method, who knows?

 

However, Tyrion did give Shae a chunky gold necklace (in S3 I think) which I made a mental note of at the time, thinking "hmm wonder if that is gonna replace the hand chain when the time comes?".

[Alapaki]

They've started veering so far off the books at this point that I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have Tyrion kill Shae.  

 

I can't recall whether I felt like it was sold better in the books, but it just doesn't seem that Tywin ending up in bed with Shae is very much in character with the way they've portrayed him.  And putting him in Shae's bedroom would, I think, commit them to the suggestion that Tywin was the one who brought Shae in for the trial, which as mentioned upthread, seems like unnecessary overkill from someone who already had the final say in the verdict anyway.

[Independent George]

It was sold better in the books because it had the advantage of describing her entirely from Tyrion's POV, which was hardly neutral. If they kept the character the same, they wouldn't be able to sell her on screen for the same reason they scrapped Arstan Whitebeard: their true identities would be transparent to the audience, and it'd be annoying to watch the show pretend they're something we can plainly see they are not.

[Haldebrandt]

Great insight from an Unsullied, who read the Varys-Oberyn scene differently: Varys was suggesting to Oberyn that Oberyn should pursue the Iron Throne (and spend less time fucking around),  That's far more likely than the widely understood idea that Varys wants the throne for himself.

 

And it's consistent with Varys' loyalties.  I think he planted the idea of Dorne rising under a Queen Myrcella into Oberyn's mind.  I hope Oberyn raises that possibility with Tyrion.

 

Dialog shoulda been clearer.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Hanahope]

They've really captured the essence of Oberyn from the books and I'm going to miss him all over again after the combat trial.

[Fen]

First of all, in an episode where the Iron Bank talked about the importance of paying back exactly what you owe - it was interesting that we saw broke Tywin promise ten times the 'normal' bounty level for anyone who could capture the Hound.  Then, we saw Daenerys offer the goat herd three times the price of his goats.  Pretty profligate from both.  The Hound would have been hunted just as well for a lesser amount, and offering 3 times the cost of the goats still doesn't prevent the dragons from doing it again when they get peckish.

 

I think this was perhaps the first time that Daenerys has been presented as having some fairly serious flaws as a ruler.  I think the way Hizdahr was presented in the show was important; he seemed intelligent, measured, reasonable, and humble.  In comparison, Daenerys seemed foolish, rash, unreasonable and egotistical.  She's so used to issuing demands and orders at this point that the notion of Hizdahr's father arguing his case but being outvoted is almost incomprehensible to her.

[Brn2bwild]

IMO, if Show Shae were just out for revenge, it would have been much more apparent.  She would have looked like she enjoyed saying what she was saying.  Instead, she looked really uncomfortable, like she was being coerced.  Compare that with Book Shae, who reveled in telling mocking stories of her sexual encounters with Tyrion.

[Meredith Quill]

IMO, if Show Shae were just out for revenge, it would have been much more apparent.  She would have looked like she enjoyed saying what she was saying.  Instead, she looked really uncomfortable, like she was being coerced.  Compare that with Book Shae, who reveled in telling mocking stories of her sexual encounters with Tyrion.

I can't reconcile her being coerced with her revealing things that she really didn't need to.

Such as, "I held his face and told him, I am yours and you are mine" or "he liked it when I called him 'My Lion'", amongst others. Why reveal such intimate things if you don't have to, when you know how cruel and hurtful it will be to do so? It's not like Cersei or Tywin would have known if she had simply left those parts out.

 

Especially when you consider that the real damage was done by the lies she had already told about murder plots incl Sansa; it's like the lies were sticking the knife in, and the intimate reveals were twisting it. That does not add up to simple coercion.

[Bannon]

 I just don't see a good way at this point to make Shae's behavior seem credible. It's kind of surprising that they have written themselves into this corner, given their options. Greed makes the least sense, given that getting out of King's Landing with a nice sum of money would have been easily the best choice for a greedy Shae. She hasn't been portrayed as a person who is so stupid as to not realize that, especially when Joffery was on the throne. getting killed in King's Landing was a distinct possibility.

 

The same thing goes for her being angry at being spurned by Tyrion. Surely she understands that if the likes of Ned Stark can have his head lopped off at the whim of a pychopath, she understands why Tyrion has his behavior constrained. She certainly hasn't been portrayed in the show as havng the I.Q. of a turnip, and a murderous rage in response to a reasonable path that seeks to avoid all too real prospects of execution  certainly seems pretty stupid.

 

It's a good point that Shae seemed to say more than was necessary in her testimony, if she was being coerced, but who knows, maybe Cersei waterboarded her in order to extract the intimate details of her life with Tyrion. I agree  that it lacks credibility.

 

Having her in Tywin's bed seems out of character for Tywin as well. We'll see what path they take, and how well, I guess.

[Tryangle]

They've started veering so far off the books at this point that I wouldn't be surprised if they don't have Tyrion kill Shae.  

 

I can't recall whether I felt like it was sold better in the books, but it just doesn't seem that Tywin ending up in bed with Shae is very much in character with the way they've portrayed him.  And putting him in Shae's bedroom would, I think, commit them to the suggestion that Tywin was the one who brought Shae in for the trial, which as mentioned upthread, seems like unnecessary overkill from someone who already had the final say in the verdict anyway.

 

Agreed. Looking at how this episode played out, I'd like to think most people got the impression that it was Cersei who was responsible for getting Shae in to testify against Tyrion, and not Tywin at all.

 

(sigh, the internet ate up the rest of my reply and I'm too tired/can't recall it, but it was *AWESOME*)...

 

 

Basically, I hope the show reveals some kinks in Tywin's armour over the next couple episodes, else any Shae-in-Tywin's bed scene is just going to be weird for all of us.

Edited May 13, 2014 by Tryangle

[dr pepper]

Actually, Shae in Tywin's bed seemed a little off in the book as well, but yeah, in the show it's way outside the man of iron will and total discipline character they've established for him.

[LCanterbury]

I found it surprising in the books too, especially considering how Tywin treated his father's mistress following his death. I guess being a hypocrite isn't too much of a stretch for someone like Tywin though.

Anyone else have a *that's* how you pronounce it moment with Hizdahr zo Loraq? I just skimmed it in my head when reading because I couldn't be bothered saying it. Dude needs a nickname.

[Gringa]

I assume Shae revealed so many details because the common thread of the trial testimony was to use Tyrion's own words against him. It was probably more of a literary choice than anything.

Edited May 15, 2014 by Gringa

[GreyBunny]

I found it surprising in the books too, especially considering how Tywin treated his father's mistress following his death. I guess being a hypocrite isn't too much of a stretch for someone like Tywin though.

Tywin reminds me of guys like Larry "wide stance" Craig and others who publicly rail against that what they themselves do in bed.  Doth protest too much.

His hatred of whores screams "I use whores!"

 It also illustrates, at least to me, that Oberyn and Ellaria, some of the Dornish, and the people of the Summer Isles with their "celebrate life" attitude toward sex probably have the healthiest views of sexuality.

Edited May 15, 2014 by GreyBunny

[Haldebrandt]

Anyone else have a *that's* how you pronounce it moment with Hizdahr zo Loraq? I just skimmed it in my head when reading because I couldn't be bothered saying it. Dude needs a nickname.

 

His 5 minutes on-screen were more compelling than his entire time in the books (also, that's how I've always pictured Daario looking).  I continue to be pleasantly surprised by the Meereen arc so far.  Who woulda thought. 

Edited May 15, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[WalterWhiteWalker]

His 5 minutes on-screen were more compelling than his entire time in the books (also, that's how I've always pictured Daario looking).  I continue to be pleasantly surprised by the Meereen arc so far.  Who woulda thought. 

 

At least so far, there's so many fewer characters.  That helps a lot.  And we get to remember them by face rather than by the crazy Meereenese names.

[mac123x]

At least so far, there's so many fewer characters.  That helps a lot.  And we get to remember them by face rather than by the crazy Meereenese names.

 

Yes!  One of the (many many) reasons I dislike Dany's Meereen adventures is the names are so weird it was hard to keep track of who was who.  "Garble zo Mumble", is that her husband, her senechal, the head of the Shavepates, one of the Yunkai'i generals, or some other weirdo?  The only person I could readily ID was Galazza Galarre, and that was mostly because she's the only prominent woman in the city of gibberish.

[OakGoblinFly]

Yes!  One of the (many many) reasons I dislike Dany's Meereen adventures is the names are so weird it was hard to keep track of who was who.  "Garble zo Mumble", is that her husband, her senechal, the head of the Shavepates, one of the Yunkai'i generals, or some other weirdo?  The only person I could readily ID was Galazza Galarre, and that was mostly because she's the only prominent woman in the city of gibberish.

 

 

So very true ..... between the names and lack of action I found myself glazing over the Dany chapters.

 

It would be lovely to read an epic fantasy series where the characters are named David, Steven, Elizabeth, Mary, and so on.  ;-)

[mac123x]

His Grace Todd, of House Johnson, third of his name, king of the Hoosiers and Sooners, defender of the realm...

[Haldebrandt]

Re: how to off Shea given their relative strength:  I've always pictured her as chained up / cuffed up to the bed.  Not sure why, maybe because of the chain around her neck.  But that would be a great way to go because beside resolving the strength issue, it also adds an additional element to Tywin's sexuality...

Edited May 15, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[Fable]

It would be lovely to read an epic fantasy series where the characters are named David, Steven, Elizabeth, Mary, and so on.  ;-)

 

 

So very true.  Too many weird names really congest and deflect from the story.  Scratching my head about who is this again, and why are they there really breaks up the story telling! 

[Alapaki]

Re: how to off Shea given their relative strength:  I've always pictured her as chained up / cuffed up to the bed.  Not sure why, maybe because of the chain around her neck.  But that would be a great way to go because beside resolving the strength issue, it also adds an additional element to Tywin's sexuality...

 

 

It occurred to me that a very important motivation for Tyrion seeking out Tywin on his way out of imprisonment was that Jaime confessed that Tywin made him lie about Tysha (Tyrion's first wife) being a prostitute. 

 

As far as I can recall, they haven't really gone into that on the show.  

 

So they're going to have to find some motivation for Tyrion to seek out Tywin.  I'm curious how they play it.

[Haldebrandt]

They did. There was a lengthy scene in Baelor back in S1, and Tyrion alluded to it in S3 when told he had to marry Sansa: "I was married, don't you remember?" "Only too well."... But we're definitely due for a solid reminder, not mere allusion.

[Moya the Leviathan]

 The lack of fucks that man gives would satisfy the world's energy demand for the next 50 years.

Hee!  It aint the lack of fucks, honey.  

[Holmbo]

They did. There was a lengthy scene in Baelor back in S1, and Tyrion alluded to it in S3 when told he had to marry Sansa: "I was married, don't you remember?" "Only too well."... But we're definitely due for a solid reminder, not mere allusion.

They also had Bronn mentioning it before the wedding. Asking him sarcasticly if he was gonna marry Shae and how well that turned out last time.

But yes non book readers have probably sorted Tysha away in their brain as non important back story character.

[GreyBunny]

Even the actress is a little mystified at some of Shae's testimony, particularly where she throws Sansa under the bus:

 

"I had really big problems with that, with this line," Kekilli tells Zap2it. "When I read that, I thought, 'She can't say that.' I think Shae really loves her and she's said, 'I would kill for this girl.' She's saying one line, and I thought, 'Ugh, can't she just say Tyrion did that?' Or something like that? It's really hard, so I tried to understand why, of course, why she's doing it. As I said, she just got wounded now, and is just boxing around."

 

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_season_4_sibel_kekilli_didnt_want_shae_to_betray_sansa-2014-05

[Alapaki]

I think if they try to work the Tysha backstory back into the mix it's going to take at least a scene or two of exposition.  And even then it will, almost of necessity, lose the emotional punch it had in the books.

 

I just have a feeling that they're going to work in some other, non-book-based betrayal.

[Haldebrandt]

Even the actress is a little mystified at some of Shae's testimony, particularly where she throws Sansa under the bus:

 

 

 

 

http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_season_4_sibel_kekilli_didnt_want_shae_to_betray_sansa-2014-05

 

I was gonna say that it's consistent with D&D's MO of taking an already strong element or scene and pushing it the extreme.  It works sometimes (I liked the belly stabbing in the RW) but often it doesn't.

 

But here, it turns out they were actually a moderating influence on the script: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/game-thrones-writer-season-5-704326

 

 

Dan and David were adamant that most the testimony against Tyrion be basically true. In one draft, I had characters making up a lot more false testimony. The guys said very wisely "No, no, no. Go back and find nuggets from the past." The tremendously satisfying thing about writing it is it's basically the climax of the Lannister family drama that these characters have been embroiled in for decades.

So, it could have been worse... GRRM recently said that the trial of Tyrion is all about facing the potential consequences of your actions, justified as they may be.  You can waddle around publically threatening people and slapping kings and the audience will cheer, but that too has a cost.  While Tyrion is innocent of murder, he is guilty of extreme arrogance.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Haldebrandt

[bluebonnet]

I can't reconcile her being coerced with her revealing things that she really didn't need to.

Such as, "I held his face and told him, I am yours and you are mine" or "he liked it when I called him 'My Lion'", amongst others. Why reveal such intimate things if you don't have to, when you know how cruel and hurtful it will be to do so? It's not like Cersei or Tywin would have known if she had simply left those parts out.

 

Especially when you consider that the real damage was done by the lies she had already told about murder plots incl Sansa; it's like the lies were sticking the knife in, and the intimate reveals were twisting it. That does not add up to simple coercion.

Whoever had their maid spying on them would certainly have known (I thought it was one of Olenna ladies, but I'm not so sure).  Point is, someone was spying so someone heard.  That spy has to pay off somehow. The coercion of Shae could have been "hey, you tell them X,Y and Z about murder plot and you also mention all the things you talked about because we just want to drill it in that Tyrion is a lusty, egotistical prick plus it we really want to see him suffer.  If you say all these, we promise that we'll show him mercy and let him live."  Coercion like that seems most likely to come from Cersei, but I just can't remember who that lady spy was working for.  If/When Tyrion kills Shae, his move into the real darkness he became in ADWD will be better played out on screen because he'll have killed a woman possibly saying that she did it because she loved him.  

Edited May 17, 2014 by SystemRemote

[Haleth]

Missed two episodes by being on my own voyage and adventure so I only got to watch this one a little while ago.  The trial scene was phenomenal.  Dinklage really sold the anger and frustration and Coster-Waldau was amazing with just his facial expressions.  In fact Alfie Allen was brilliant too.  Fine episode all around.

[Hecate7]

First of all, in an episode where the Iron Bank talked about the importance of paying back exactly what you owe - it was interesting that we saw broke Tywin promise ten times the 'normal' bounty level for anyone who could capture the Hound.  Then, we saw Daenerys offer the goat herd three times the price of his goats.  Pretty profligate from both.  The Hound would have been hunted just as well for a lesser amount, and offering 3 times the cost of the goats still doesn't prevent the dragons from doing it again when they get peckish.

I thought that was interesting, too.

 

Ten times the bounty on the Hound makes sense, because if two guys ganged up on him, they'd have to split the bounty. It would take more than two guys to take down the Hound, ergo Tywin thought of how many it would take, and multiplied the bounty by that number. Five guys, at 20 each....a hundred. That had some logic to it.

 

Poor Danaerys wanted to show respect by paying three times the worth of the goat. She knows how often her dragons eat, and she can afford it. What she's not considering, is that paying triple the price of the goat creates a new industry. Why raise and sell goats to people, when you can earn more by saying a dragon ate them? Better still, why not burn the bones of every goat your family eats, and present them? How's she going to know? Paying just what the goats are worth, compensates the farmers and has the plus side of keeping it unprofitable to claim a dragon ate your goats.

[John Potts]

On ‎12‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 4:02 AM, Independent George said:

A bare chested Ramsay charges into the fray against a bunch of heavily armored Ironborn. The Ironborn have shields, steel breastplates, helmets, and short axes; the Bolton soldiers have leather armor and longswords. All the ironborn have to do is charge with their shields and swing their short axes in tight arcs against their poorly equipped foes, and they'd break through with barely any casualties. Instead, it winds up being an even fight, and the Ironborn have to withdraw.

I hated that scene. These are supposedly the toughest Ironborn around and they got their asses kicked. And even if Ramsay is the best fighter around (which he isn't in the books - I think he's described as a unpredictable but clumsy fighter) he's the one in charge, so kill him and the defenders will lose heart. You certainly don't stop fighting so he can speechify and unleash his hounds! And did Ramsay just let them go? Doesn't seem like his "style".

And secondly, Yara's pitch at the Kingsmoot was that she was a great battle leader. When your last fight was an ignominious retreat, that undermines your case somewhat.

On ‎12‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 4:50 PM, BlackberryJam said:

1.  Did she testify out of jealous?  Fuck. I hate that theory. 

2.  Was she paid off by Tywin?  This seems doubtful.  Tywin was the head Judge.  He didn't need Shae to have Tyrion found guilty.  Also, the case was Tyrion accused by Cersei.  She was the crown's (Cersei's) witness.  We know Cersei likes the overkill and isn't very smart.

3.  I'd like it better if Shae cut a deal with Cersei to save Tyrion's life by testifying against him and Cersei promising to save Tyrion and send him away with Shae.  Only Shae would be stupid to believe her.  It's not like the girl's got brains to spare.

I'm hoping for option three.

I'd go for 4 (or rather, 2a) - intimidated into testifying by Tywin. He may not care about a fair trial, but he wants it to seem fair (possibly why other than Shae, what everyone said was actually true). Though I would certainly hate option 1, too.

On ‎12‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 6:07 AM, Rhondinella said:

But what do I know of Westerosi law?

"In the Westerosi justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the judges, who hear the trials; and the champions, who make the trials moot. These are their stories." [CHUNG, CHUNG]

On ‎13‎/‎05‎/‎2014 at 6:46 PM, Fen said:

I think the way Hizdahr was presented in the show was important; he seemed intelligent, measured, reasonable, and humble.  In comparison, Daenerys seemed foolish, rash, unreasonable and egotistical.

Quite agree. OK, clearly the guy is self interested in presenting his father as a saint, but he certainly had a point. Hey, justice ain't so easy, Khaleesi!