S13.E14: Good Intentions

[ukgirl71]

Can some kind soul spoil two things for me please?  1. What exactly did Cas do  2. Why was Dean being helped away (injured?) by Sam in the promo photo?

Thanks from a chilly UK :O)

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ukgirl71 said:

Can some kind soul spoil two things for me please?  1. What exactly did Cas do  2. Why was Dean being helped away (injured?) by Sam in the promo photo?

Thanks from a chilly UK :O)

Cas used some angel mojo thing to extract the spell knowledge from Donatello's mind/brain and it left him brain damaged. 

Donatello did something to Dean via some kind of magic or power.

[bozodegama]

I was really looking  forward to the episode but I was disappointed.  I don’t really like being a critic, I’m more of just s plain fan but I thought it was ok and could’ve been better.  I didn’t really like what they did to Donatello.  I’m a fan of the character, think he’s hysterical so I was taken aback by the cavalier way Cass destroyed his brain.  It want Donnie’s Fault That Asmodeus zapped him with a spell.  I guess it’s a plot contrivance to show how desperate and pissed Cass is this season.  Seems a little out of the blue, like Sams depression.  I was surprised that the boys were not more pissed about this.  I know Dean said something but it was mild for the crime.  Cass is really super impatient Cass this season and he’s acting too angry, out of character, imo.  I was pretty surprised that Ackles really didn’t give a great comedic performance with Gog and Magog.  Lots of eye rolls but not the hysterical performance you usually get with a scene like that. Lastly,  if your going to bring back a really iconic character like Zachariah,  bring  back the great Kurt Fuller, not the guy we got today. Jmo.  I think I have to rewatch it to feel better about it.  

[companionenvy]

I like that Cas is showing some spine (even if the ethics are questionable), but I'd still like it more if Cas occasionally got to do something heroic that felt good and didn't come with a ton of strings attached. Even now, Sam and Dean sometimes get a case of the week where they're simply killing the bad guy and saving an innocent. Whereas Cas winds up getting stuck with "I had to kill another one of my siblings before they could kill me" or "I had to fry the prophet's brain." It isn't even that I think Cas necessarily made the wrong call here - it is just that he's put in these kinds of thankless situations a lot. It doesn't help that somehow, Donatello's soullessness had no discernible effect on him, so while Cas should be right that killing a soulless person is substantially different from killing a run of the mill human, it doesn't come off that way.

Speaking of, I would think the Winchesters should be past being uber-shocked and appalled at Cas harming a prophet who was already soulless, dangerously psychotic, and actively (if not willingly) working against them. They've all done too many sketchy and morally compromised things by now to get all holier than thou about Cas making that choice, even if it is one they wouldn't have made.

I also thought that Bobby's turnaround from joining the Mary Winchester cheerleading squad to ordering her to leave with Jack was too quick. I get that he'd be reticent about trusting an angel, even a part-angel (and he doesn't even know Jack is Lucifer's son!), but Jack was, as per usual, acting about as threatening as a puppy dog and Mary -- whose AU version Bobby clearly had a lot of trust and affection for -- is vouching for him. Bobby reacting with anger is one thing, instantly shifting gears from "Mary, you are fantastic and I owe you" to a cold "Get out by dawn" seems to be a bit much. Especially as he did briefly meet and work with Cas last season, so we know he's open to exceptions to his policy of killing all angels on sight. 

Despite these complaints, I didn't dislike this episode...just found it kind of meh. 

[juppschmitz]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Why shouldn't Cas enjoy torturing Lucifer?

Because "good" peoole just don't enjoy torture, no matter what. Dean admitted to enjoying torturing souls in Hell (and all of his victims there presumably "deserved" it, being in Hell and all) and look at what it did to his psyche when he was himself back on Earth.

Feel free to disagree.

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm gonna have to research this. I thought he was superexcited in s8 to have translated it in s8. Well anyway this just reminds me of an even bigger question.

Cas broke the angel tablet in s9 when he found it in Metatron's typewriter in 9.23.  WHY IS THERE ANOTHER ANGEL TABLET? I am confused.

And why did Sam have it at all? Isn't there supposed to be One Leviathan Tablet, One Demon Tablet, and One Angel Tablet??

Help?

Kevin didn't get the angel tablet until Sacrifice.  So, he definitely didn't translate it in S8.  They found it originally in Goodbye Stranger. Cas took it.  Crowley got it from him in The Great Escapist, and Sam and dEan got it back from Crowley in Sacrifice.  KEvin just translated something about finding out hat they weren't trying to close the gates of Heaven in that epi.

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

3. Does the AU have *everything* that this world does (ie, same angels, all the tablets...)?

Alt Kevin was reading a tablet, so I would say yes.

 

7 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Freeing them from the vortex of space and time seems above Cas' paygrade. Can he teleport now.

I think they had a spell.  anybody appears to be able to do anything witht he right spell on this show.

[Aeryn13]

I didn`t really have a problem with what Cas did. They have all done so much worse. 

Michael continues to be bland unfortunately. 

Jack got to be a badass. The apoca-world could use him.

I did enjoy Dean getting to be a badass and winning his fight as well as getting two kills. Even though that was just a red herring interlude, I live for those moments now. 

All in all, I liked it fine.  

[Bergamot]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Mary certainly didn't look "rode hard and put away wet," as if she'd been tortured for the past 6 months (?)  Even her clothes weren't dirty, and she seemed pretty calm and unstressed when Jack showed up.  Even if Michael was "saving" her to make a deal, the glimpses we had of her before this showed her being tortured.  I was a little suspicious that it wasn't really her with Jack.

Yes, Mary was in remarkably good shape for someone who had been tortured for months so severely that even Lucifer found it excessive. I have to admit that I snickered when she commented that she thought she was getting migraines from the torture -- oh, certainly, my dear, being tortured always gives me SUCH a migraine too! And I thought it was silly too, and pretty lame, when it turned out that they had to stand in a certain spot (conveniently right next to the window!) in order for Jack to be able to use his powers. It was just like when I moved into my new house and discovered that I could only use my phone when I stood in a certain spot by the front room window.

Speaking of Jack, I did wonder briefly how he learned to do shadow puppets. I guess Kelly must have taught him in the womb? Or I don't know, maybe he just figured it out on his own, since he is the cutest, sweetest, truest, kindest bravest little muffin ever. I mean, okay, yes, he absolutely is the sweetest thing ever, he really is, but what is the point of introducing Lucifer's son as a major character if he ought to come with a warning label for diabetics? There are no dimensions to him as a character; the only way he is ever going to do anything wrong is by accident or if someone misleads him. It makes all Dean and Sam's wrangling and angst over him at the beginning seem pointless and idiotic -- all they had to do was wait for his true sweet nature to show itself.

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Bobby definitely has a thing for Mary.  I wasn't really thrilled at her being absolved of making the deal.  I wonder if Sam will buy it?

Oh my God yes. So they take Mary making a deal with the Yellow-Eyed Demon -- the dark, twisted, anguished knot at the heart of the character -- at the heart of the whole show, really -- and smooth it out and tidy it up and put it to bed. It all seems so simple now. Thank goodness Mary locked lips with that demon wearing her dead father's body -- otherwise the world could not have been saved by Dean and Sam! That settles that problem! She "made the right choice" -- no need to worry about any ramifications or after-effects. (I guess that should also apply to any other bad decisions they have all made to save each other? No guilt for anyone!)

And speaking of guilt erasure, what the heck was alt-Bobby talking about when he assured Mary that she had "done good by her boys"? In what way? In what sense? Could he give some examples please?

The most enjoyable part of the episode for me was Dean taking down Og and Magog. It was pretty much a pointless side trip from the story, but I always enjoy watching Dean fight! Typical episode, in my opinion -- there are always a few bright spots, but overall, the writing for this show is just sad now.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Mary was in remarkably good shape for someone who had been tortured for months so severely that even Lucifer found it excessive.

I'm not denying that she didn't look good from being tortured, but Mary and Lucifer were separated.  He was making that up for Cas's benefit.  He had no idea what was happening to her, if anything.

[Jediknight]

Once again, I'm liking this season.

Jack is a character that could have been a horrible addition, but they continue to do an excellent job with him.  Even in the AU, even after finding out that Bobby wanted him out of the camp, he was still Jack, he was still the nice polite character he's been this season.  He didn't get pissed, or start down a path to evil.  He still wants to help people, bring joy to people's lives, make the world a better place, and hang out with his family.  Far too often on this show, the powerful beings have been dicks or evil, so it's nice to get an all powerful character who's neither of those things.  Keep him around.

This was the first Bobby returns episode, where I wasn't thinking "Oh great, Bobby's back, again.  Wish we could get somebody else."

And Jack, when you get out, go to another Earth and convince your mom to help out the crew of misfit B-team heroes.  And get that damn demon out of her.

[Pondlass1]

Well Mary obviously was provided free access to lipstick, mascara and a hair stylist following any torture session.  And the writers did some tiptoeing through the tulips to absolve her from everything.  If she hadn't done what she done then we'd have had the darn apocalypse too - and no TV series either I guess?

The apocalypse scenes were a bit skimpy - they just don't have the budget for this stuff.   I can almost feel my cavities forming whenever Jack is one screen.  Hope he gets to be a bit deeper than a sugar puddle soon cuz the actor seems accomplished.

Still, I did enjoy the episode a lot. It was quite entertaining.  Dean got to be badass with two kills. And, although I'm not a Castiel fan, at last the character is being given something to do and is interesting again.  Did he get his spine back when he woke up in the Big Empty? 

Dean looked  'pretty' and could pass for 30 any day. 

[DittyDotDot]

That was an enjoyable hour of Supernatural, more or less, but it should really get the hokey effects award. 

Personally, I think Cass did the right thing. There was no fix for Donatello and it seems Sam and Dean have forgotten that sometimes you have to get dirty in order to clean up a mess. And quite frankly, Dean's lecture about who gets to decide was nothing short of hypocritical. Plus, I like proactive and sassy Cass. There's already too much angsting about every decision on this show. It's nice to see someone just make a decision and live with it without all the drama. And, I'm all for less standing around and talking about how they can't do stuff...so, thanks, Cass!

Wouldn't have minded seeing Dean stab Alternate Zachariah in the throat again, but Jack making him go poof was pretty satisfying too. Looks like my predictions of Jack "fixing" the alternate might be coming true?

AU Bobby is just weird. There are many, many characters I'd love to come back in the AU and see a different version of them, but Bobby isn't one of them. I would rather they revisit original universe Bobby. I just have no investment in Alternate Bobby.

Anyhoo, overall a good showing.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

I'm not denying that she didn't look good from being tortured, but Mary and Lucifer were separated.  He was making that up for Cas's benefit.  He had no idea what was happening to her, if anything.

But we saw her hanging in that spiky-cage-thing through Jack's eyes.

(From SPNwiki: 13.09 The Bad Place:  With the help of dreamwalker Derek Swan and through combining their powers, Jack is able to access to Apocalypse World, and is able to locate Mary, who is hanging from a cage in a dilapidated church, screaming in pain and calling for help. )

That wasn't just Lucifer's lies.  So either she has remarkable powers of recovery (and why did Michael apparently take her out of the cage and toss her in a cell where she was apparently well-fed (and groomed)?) or there's something more going on--either sinister or stupid (as in bad writing/continuity).

[Pondlass1]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

There's already too much angsting about every decision on this show.

I couldn't agree more. 

I also think leaving brain dead Donatello hooked up at a hospital was odd.  Maybe the writers thought they might need him again.  It's too bad, I liked the character and the actor (way more than hyper Kevin).

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I just have no investment in Alternate Bobby.

Me neither.  The AU has turned out to be a bit of a dud.  They've missed out on so many opportunities with this storyline.

But I must admit I'm looking forward to future episodes - I think it's going to build to a supernatural battle at the end.  And I'm keen to re-watch again after the episode has ended.  It wasn't like this during the BMOL season when I almost gave up on the show.

This episode and Advanced Thanatology the best so far (for me, anyway).

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

But we saw her hanging in that spiky-cage-thing through Jack's eyes.

I'm not saying she wasn't tortured at all.  I'm saying that she probably wasn't being tortured worse than anything Lucifer's ever seen.

 

8 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I also think leaving brain dead Donatello hooked up at a hospital was odd.

Or maybe they don't want another prophet rising.  There can only be one live one at a time.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I also think leaving brain dead Donatello hooked up at a hospital was odd.  Maybe the writers thought they might need him again.  It's too bad, I liked the character and the actor (way more than hyper Kevin).

Oh, I liked them both, Maybe they'll do something more with the character, but I suspect they left a brain dead Donatello so they didn't have to deal with a new prophet being made right now.

[ahrtee]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm not saying she wasn't tortured at all.  I'm saying that she probably wasn't being tortured worse than anything Lucifer's ever seen.

 

And I'm saying that she didn't look damaged (or even stressed) in any way, ignoring whatever Lucifer said (which I assumed was hyperbole to make her rescue seem urgent.)  But the fact that she seemed in such good shape and so well-adjusted after 6 months of being a captive seemed off to me.  Michael may have decided that he "had a use" for her now, but IMO not for the whole 6 months.  YMMV.

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And I'm saying that she didn't look damaged (or even stressed) in any way, ignoring whatever Lucifer said (which I assumed was hyperbole to make her rescue seem urgent.)  But the fact that she seemed in such good shape and so well-adjusted after 6 months of being a captive seemed off to me.  Michael may have decided that he "had a use" for her now, but IMO not for the whole 6 months.  YMMV.

He also could have healed her.  he is an angel.  A fully-powered archangel.  If he didn't want her to look bad for Jack, she wouldn't.  Maybe he even healed her every day after torture just for funsies. Better to torture a fully healthy person.

[SueB]

10 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

So Donatello thought he gave TFW impossible busy work.

Freeing them from the vortex of space and time seems above Cas' paygrade. Can he teleport now.

Was everyone okay with effectively committing human sacrifice.

In biblical lore... My recollection of biblical lore... nephilim were giants... So weird.  

The pretty line kind of reminds me of Deliverance ... He has a purty mouth... In deliverance it has homoerotic subtext to the max.

Did they explain why they were made of sand. Were they from Gomorrah and only partially turned to sand.  Wasn't that a thing.

- It was an Enochian spell, that's it. No power
- Gog and Magog: So Donatello said they were human or land -- the Bible has many translations. Cas chimes in he didn't think they were human. Donatello said, "oh yes, they were ancient warriors who enslaved the half the Fertile Cresent" until some priest trapped them in a place without a place, a time without a time.  SO... IMO, there's a least some fuzz on that peach as to what KIND of beings Gog and Magog were.  The whole "enslave people" puts them in the "bad guy" column but while Donatello seemed to insist they were human, he clearly was lying because they were made of sand.

- Oh, and the "thing" with Gomorrah (and Sodom) was that they were cleansed with Holy Fire and Lot's wife, who looked back at the city, turned into a pillar of salt (not Sand). So, at least in the Supernatural verse, we don't have a conflating of the salt-turned wife of Lot and Gog/Magog.

- Dabb seems to be borrowing from the multi-variant interpreted Judaic texts regarding Nephlim, and Watchers, and Noah.  I took the discussion of the Flood to be a shoutout to the movie Noah and it's 'rock creature' Watchers. But Dabb is into that kind of thing so he may be following one particular telling of the story, I just don't know one.  No, it's not in the standard Torah or Judeo-Christian Bible (Old Testamant, New Testamant). But Donatello also did a shout out to 'multiple translations of the Bible'.  

Bottom Line; No, they didn't explain why they were made of Sand. But their nature was iffy to begin with, which maybe why going off to kill them was not treated with the seriousness I expected.

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

He also could have healed her.  he is an angel.  A fully-powered archangel.  If he didn't want her to look bad for Jack, she wouldn't.  Maybe he even healed her every day after torture just for funsies. Better to torture a fully healthy person.

I'm not saying it isn't possible he healed her physically, though he didn't seem like the type to care.  But I'd think she'd have some mental issues if she'd been tortured for 6 months, but she seemed remarkably well-adjusted.  Hell, Michael himself wound up with major mental issues that even he couldn't heal after being locked in the cage in our world (even without torture--since most opinions seemed to be that both Michael and Lucifer spent their time tormenting Sam, not each other.)    I'm just saying there's something off about it *IMO*, and YMMV.  *shrugs*  I did say it could just be bad writing.  I guess we'll see if there's anything more sinister about it later.  

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line; No, they didn't explain why they were made of Sand. But their nature was iffy to begin with, which maybe why going off to kill them was not treated with the seriousness I expected.

 

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

Gog and Magog: So Donatello said they were human or land -- the Bible has many translations.

I wonder if it's something as literal as 'they were land' -- actually made of land (sand). A little on the nose, but given the current regime....

[catrox14]

Regarding the notion that Cas was taking pleasure at Lucifer's suffering and from stabbing Lucifer, which IMO was way overstated anyway, I had to go back and watch the episodes with Lucifer and Cas in Hell Jail ...And then I was confused. Because when was it shown that he was taking extended pleasure at the idea of Lucifer being tortured?  I am legit trying to understand where the impression came from in the first place.  He smiled. That was it? Is it because Cas doesn't smile a lot this season? That he's more gruff and a bit angrier. Less willing to deal with BS that it seemed he was taking pleasure? I'm not being sarcastic. Can someone point me to those moments?  And I sure didn't think he enjoyed doing what he did to Donatello. He did it because he felt he had no choice. 

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

SO... IMO, there's a least some fuzz on that peach as to what KIND of beings Gog and Magog were.

Didn't Cass say they were a primitive form of beasts he thought had died out centuries ago? 

14 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I am getting "If bacon's what kills me,then I win." on a t-shirt.

I don't even like bacon, but I too want it on a T-shirt!!

Edited March 2, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 

I wonder if it's something as literal as 'they were land' -- actually made of land (sand). A little on the nose, but given the current regime....

Actually, I thought that was Dabb having a go at us.  With Donatello the "mad man" mentioning the "human or land" (which is actually accurate to how the names are confusingly reported, Dabb made them human-formed 'land'.  

[catrox14]

55 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Or maybe they don't want another prophet rising.  There can only be one live one at a time.

What would be the point of them not having another prophet though? That's taking another ally off the board. I understand that Asmodeus got a hold of him but now that they know Asmodeus can do that they can better be aware. Keep the new prophet with them all the time.  Come up with some protective warding to keep Asmodeus from doing something like that.

Then again the next prophet would have their soul so they would not be as malleable as Donatello was.   

I don't get their choice on that at all. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What would be the point of them not having another prophet though? That's taking another ally off the board. I understand that Asmodeus got a hold of him but now that they know Asmodeus can do that they can better be aware. Keep the new prophet with them all the time.  Come up with some protective warding to keep Asmodeus from doing something like that.

Then again the next prophet would have their soul so they would not be as malleable as Donatello was.   

I don't get their choice on that at all. 

Possibly setting up for Amara to return at some point and restore Don's soul? I'm glad at least they addressed some kind of repercussion for him being soulless beyond the 'Mr. Rogers' nonsense.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, Katy M said:

He also could have healed her.  he is an angel.  A fully-powered archangel.  If he didn't want her to look bad for Jack, she wouldn't.  Maybe he even healed her every day after torture just for funsies. Better to torture a fully healthy person.

Except that Jack could have just read her mind anyway and seen what she went through.  Michael could have done to her what Alastair and company did to Dean in Hell but wouldn't Jack have just been able to read her mind again and see that? Unless, they wiped her mind everytime but if they did that, then she doesn't remember what happened. In Dean's case, he remembered being made new again, just to be tortured all over again which JFC that a real mind screw. That once he knew he would be whole again, he knew he would be torn apart again. 

Of course, at this point, for all I know this entire AW is a construct living in Jack's head. LOL

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Possibly setting up for Amara to return at some point and restore Don's soul? I'm glad at least they addressed some kind of repercussion for him being soulless beyond the 'Mr. Rogers' nonsense.

If she does, then she should be able to restore all the souls. Which makes me wonder about the souls that were destined for Hell. Could she just not let them go there? Would that piss off Chuck? 

Hmm...that's something to think about.

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I wonder if it's something as literal as 'they were land' -- actually made of land (sand). A little on the nose, but given the current regime....

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

Actually, I thought that was Dabb having a go at us.  With Donatello the "mad man" mentioning the "human or land" (which is actually accurate to how the names are confusingly reported, Dabb made them human-formed 'land'.  

 

So basically, @gonzosgirrl called it correctly that they are basically human land, whether or not it's because Dabb was trying to be funny or what have you, you are both saying the same thing here right?

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Possibly setting up for Amara to return at some point and restore Don's soul? I'm glad at least they addressed some kind of repercussion for him being soulless beyond the 'Mr. Rogers' nonsense.

I don't know if there is any way to give Don his soul back, but I agree, I was pleasantly surprised they finally had some repercussions for their prophet being soulless. It seemed a little too convenient that he could just go about his prophesying without a soul and have no repercussions.

18 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What would be the point of them not having another prophet though? That's taking another ally off the board. I understand that Asmodeus got a hold of him but now that they know Asmodeus can do that they can better be aware. Keep the new prophet with them all the time.  Come up with some protective warding to keep Asmodeus from doing something like that.

Wasn't it more that he had been corrupted by the power of the demon tablet? I mean, yes, Asmodeus was manipulating him too, but I thought the tablet was what had actually corrupted Donatello.

Edited March 2, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Katy M]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What would be the point of them not having another prophet though? That's taking another ally off the board.

I didn't mean Sam and Dean, I meant the writers.  But, I was actually wondering why S&D wouldn't have unplugged him.  It may be that they took him to the hospital thinking he could be helped and now they didn't have any power over whether or not he were unplugged because they're not next of kin.  But, I wouldn't expect them to kill him just so they could have another prophet, more just that he was dead already.  Like Charlie's mother.  Who presumably did have a soul.

 

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

but wouldn't Jack have just been able to read her mind again and see that?

They were warding so he didn't have any power.  But, I don't think it much matters whether he knew or not.  It was probably just what shape she appeared to be in that would affect his emotions or whatever.

 

24 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If she does, then she should be able to restore all the souls. Which makes me wonder about the souls that were destined for Hell. Could she just not let them go there? Would that piss off Chuck? 

Hmm...that's something to think about.

Well, I certainly hope they just avoid the whole kerfuffle and leave her gone.  Because if she comes back, Chuck will come back, and I have never ever ever wanted God on the show.  If Chuck is just going to come and fix everything we really don't need any human characters.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Pondlass1 said:

The AU has turned out to be a bit of a dud.  They've missed out on so many opportunities with this storyline.

I agree! And as for the alternate versions of characters they've brought back, they have been really uninteresting. Alt Bobby is just regular Bobby, wearing a different hat. Alt Michael is boring. Alt Zachariah was especially disappointing, considering how much fun it was to watch the original slimeball! Nothing against the new actor, I liked him, but they gave him nothing to do but be Angel Thug #2. They ought to be more careful about choosing to re-do characters, because I think it is very revealing to compare them to the originals.

 

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I didn`t really have a problem with what Cas did.

I didn't either. And I honestly don't believe that Dean and Sam would have either, considering the situation. The conflict over Donatello's fate felt to me like contrived drama on the writers' part that didn't really move me one way or another.  Anyway, I feel as if I've seen this same sequence before, more than once: Cas says he feels useless, then something dramatic happens, then he swells with wrath and strides forward to declare with flinty eyes that he must act!  Maybe that's why I don't feel anymore as if it really means anything, because the characters always seem to return to square one.

Compare it to a similar sequence in Season 2, in the Croatoan episode, where Dean locks Sam in to go kill Duane. I absolutely didn't know what Dean was going to do in that scene, and it mattered very much. There was a lot going on in that episode with the character arcs of both Dean and Sam, and their actions and decisions there were important and had consequences for who they were. Nowadays on the show I feel that scenes like this are manufactured for "feels", but don't really mean anything as far as characterization.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Bergamot

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Wasn't it more that he had been corrupted by the power of the demon tablet? I mean, yes, Asmodeus was manipulating him too, but I thought the tablet was what had actually corrupted Donatello.

There were multiple ways Donny had become corrupted, not just the demon tablets. IMO. Y

1) He's soulless so he was corruptible already. He had to do what Mr Rogers would do to keep from going dark side.

2) Asmodeus could more readily mind whammy him and possibly control him in some other way because he was soulless.

3)His lack of soul, made him more susceptible to the influence of the demon tablets.

So taking all three things, IMO, Asmodeus made sure that Donny was loyal to him, not TFW via the mind whammy, which is  why he clocked Sam in the noggin and was powering himself up in some way. 

The demon tablets influence could make him feel paranoid and not want to lose that power, but IMO it was Assy's whammy that had the most influence and that was because he was soulless.

 

Anyway, my overall point is that if Donny was dead, then another souled prophet would be more trustworthy and they could protect the prophet better.  And the demon tablets would not have the same effect on a souled person than they did Donny. 

IMO, if they killed Donny, Cas wouldn't have had to strip the spell.  And now Cas is at risk because he did that. Killing Donny would have been the best choice all in all once he was shown to have been corrupted by Asmodeus.

17 minutes ago, Katy M said:

They were warding so he didn't have any power.  But, I don't think it much matters whether he knew or not.  It was probably just what shape she appeared to be in that would affect his emotions or whatever.

Except at that one spot by the window, when he probably could have. 

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except at that one spot by the window, when he probably could have. 

But obviously Michael wasn't aware of that or he would have fixed it.

[Bobcatkitten]

So I'm confused why the boys weren't planning to capture Lucifer. They were in the same town as him last week. And he was still weak enough to make a move. Why just leave him alone and not try to get him?

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

But obviously Michael wasn't aware of that or he would have fixed it.

You were saying he didn't have the power and I'm saying he did on that spot. Jack could have taken a moment to read Mary's mind regardless of what he learned. That's all I'm saying.

It's possible though, that Jack being more powerful in theory than Michael, might even be able to see if Mary's memories were changed. That would be a cool power to find out Jack's has.

1 minute ago, scribe95 said:

So I'm confused why the boys weren't planning to capture Lucifer. They were in the same town as him last week. And he was still weak enough to make a move. Why just leave him alone and not try to get him?

Sister Jo blasted them away from her and Lucifer and then they went up to Heaven so I'm not sure if they know he's there. I would think Castiel would know though and would have told them.

Are we in two different timelines right now? LOL

Maybe that's the answer.

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, scribe95 said:

So I'm confused why the boys weren't planning to capture Lucifer. They were in the same town as him last week. And he was still weak enough to make a move. Why just leave him alone and not try to get him?

I think they will. They don't yet know about Gabriel, so Lucifer is literally their only option right now. I suspect they'll approach Sister Jo and try and get her to flip sides again. 

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There were multiple ways Donny had become corrupted, not just the demon tablets. IMO. Y

1) He's soulless so he was corruptible already. He had to do what Mr Rogers would do to keep from going dark side.

2) Asmodeus could more readily mind whammy him and possibly control him in some other way because he was soulless.

3)His lack of soul, made him more susceptible to the influence of the demon tablets.

So taking all three things, IMO, Asmodeus made sure that Donny was loyal to him, not TFW via the mind whammy, which is  why he clocked Sam in the noggin and was powering himself up in some way. 

The demon tablets influence could make him feel paranoid and not want to lose that power, but IMO it was Assy's whammy that had the most influence and that was because he was soulless.

Oh, see, I think the demon tablet is what allowed Asmodeus to worm in. Dontatello was being affected by the tablet before Asmodeus approached him. So, I think it was his lack of soul that allowed him to be corrupted by the demon tablet and then Asmodeus just took advantage of it.

[SueB]

On Cas frying Donnie's brain, it was a likely outcome but not definite.   The Winchesters have taken that kind of risk before from what Cas has seen.  And Cas definitely wasn't happy about it.  The boys took vegetable Donnie to the hospital but he's "brain dead".  Which means there will be no new prophet called until he's most sincerely dead.  Keeps another prophet off the board until the story needs one.

Maybe they were hoping Jack could heal him?  Or just letting enough time pass to make sure some other thing didn't happen that changed him.  

Edited March 2, 2018 by SueB

[Katy M]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You were saying he didn't have the power and I'm saying he did on that spot. Jack could have taken a moment to read Mary's mind regardless of what he learned. That's all I'm saying.

I thought I was explaining why Michael would bother to heal her even though Jack could read her mind.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

They were warding so he didn't have any power.  But, I don't think it much matters whether he knew or not.  It was probably just what shape she appeared to be in that would affect his emotions or whatever.

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I thought I was explaining why Michael would bother to heal her even though Jack could read her mind.

Wait, wait.  If Michael was trying to appeal to Jack's emotions and pushing him to save Mary, wouldn't it make more sense if she *looked* in bad shape, and as if she couldn't stand any more torture?  Wouldn't that make him more likely to be willing to do something stupid in order to save her (if Michael's plan was to manipulate him into agreeing to work with him in order to save Mary...) ?

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Wait, wait.  If Michael was trying to appeal to Jack's emotions and pushing him to save Mary, wouldn't it make more sense if she *looked* in bad shape, and as if she couldn't stand any more torture?  Wouldn't that make him more likely to be willing to do something stupid in order to save her (if Michael's plan was to manipulate him into agreeing to work with him in order to save Mary...) ?

Probably.  I'm not really invested in this argument.   But, it was said that she looked to good for someone that was tortured.  So, if she did look to good then Michael probably healed her.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, see, I think the demon tablet is what allowed Asmodeus to worm in. Dontatello was being affected by the tablet before Asmodeus approached him. So, I think it was his lack of soul that allowed him to be corrupted by the demon tablet and then Asmodeus just took advantage of it.

Ah. I gotcha. Yeah I think it's the other way around. LOL.

Either case, IMO, it's Donatello being soulless that was the whole problem so whether it was Assy or the tablets that got to him first, Cas was right that they should have killed him to bring forth the next prophet. But since they boys wouldn't agree Cas did the next "best" thing.

Whilst I'm hopeful this is being played straight and it's not a corrupted Cas, it's not impossible, but not what I'm banking on at this point.

49 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I thought I was explaining why Michael would bother to heal her even though Jack could read her mind.

I said Jack would be able to read her mind and see if she had any memories of the torture and the injuries. It seemed you were saying Jack couldn't because he didn't have power. I said he would in that spot by the window.

The rub here being if Michael did heal her, did he also erase her memor

11 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Probably.  I'm not really invested in this argument.   But, it was said that she looked to good for someone that was tortured.  So, if she did look to good then Michael probably healed her.

...Or he didn't torture her as much as Lucifer was implying which was the original argument. :)

It's possible Michael was doing mental torture re the headaches, which is why I said, that  Jack could read her mind by standing in the non warded spot by the window and see if Michael was messing with her mind. I think that is a power Jack would have.

To me it's a bit of a plot hole that Jack didn't try to read her mind even when they got out and were running with Bobby. 

[bethy]

I’m in the minority on this one. I didn’t care for it much at all. 

Honestly, I think when the first few minutes of any episode start with little to no Sam or Dean, I’m already frustrated with the episode. So the focus on Mary here (who I can’t decide if I think is a non-entity based on the character herself or the flat way I think Sam Smith plays her) put me in a critical mood from early on.  The whole scene with Jack about her being killed by Lucifer was weird to me. I couldn’t figure out if I was supposed to think that she’d been possessed by Lucifer or that she was resigned to sacrifice herself because she’s Saint Mary or that there was no emotional resonance with the possibility because the acting was so bad. 

I was troubled by Cas’s decision to do what he did to Donatello. I get that he’s in “warrior mode” but I don’t think he can justify what he did by comparing himself to a soldier. A soldier who injured a bound man for information to the point that there was brain damage would be court martialed, I’m pretty sure. 

But even so, I’m weary of the “I’d do anything to protect the people I love” excuse for bad behavior on the show. 

I continue to love Jack, though.

[Commando Cody]

I think it's a plot hole that Jack could open rifts before he was born, but he can't open them now. 

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Are we in two different timelines right now? LOL

Maybe that's the answer.

Speaking of time lines - was it weird to anyone else that it's six months since Jack was born? I didn't get the impression of that much time passing in the episodes.

21 minutes ago, bethy said:

I’m in the minority on this one. I didn’t care for it much at all. 

Honestly, I think when the first few minutes of any episode start with little to no Sam or Dean, I’m already frustrated with the episode. So the focus on Mary here (who I can’t decide if I think is a non-entity based on the character herself or the flat way I think Sam Smith plays her) put me in a critical mood from early on.  The whole scene with Jack about her being killed by Lucifer was weird to me. I couldn’t figure out if I was supposed to think that she’d been possessed by Lucifer or that she was resigned to sacrifice herself because she’s Saint Mary or that there was no emotional resonance with the possibility because the acting was so bad. 

I was troubled by Cas’s decision to do what he did to Donatello. I get that he’s in “warrior mode” but I don’t think he can justify what he did by comparing himself to a soldier. A soldier who injured a bound man for information to the point that there was brain damage would be court martialed, I’m pretty sure. 

But even so, I’m weary of the “I’d do anything to protect the people I love” excuse for bad behavior on the show. 

I continue to love Jack, though.

Who will apparently do anything to protect the people he loves. LOL.

[MysteryGuest]

I haven't yet watched the episode again, but I'm going to shortly.  Just some random comments in the meantime.  I don't think Mary was "tortured" any more than we saw.  She was forced to stand in that cage, and if she tried to relax at all, she'd be cut by one of those spiky things.  Lucifer was definitely exaggerating when he was telling Cas about Mary's horrible torture, and Cas called him on it.

I thought the awkwardness between Mary and Bobby was realistic.  It would be very strange to meet someone that you knew, and who knew you, but yet this version was not the version you knew.  It would be very unsettling, IMO.

I was very happy that they didn't let Jack be easily duped by Michael.  When he was impersonating Castiel, I was afraid that they were going to get him to turn against Sam and Dean, but he came through.  If Jack's going to be good, then let him be good and smart.

I don't believe that anyone knows yet that Lucifer is back in Heaven.  Cas mentioned him being "out there" getting stronger every day, but as far as they know, he's hiding out somewhere with Sister Jo.  

Stil a lot of players left to sort out and give purpose to.  Gabriel's back and so is Ketch, but for what purpose?  I hope that becomes clearer sooner rather than later.  We don't need all these characters just cluttering things up if there's no genuine reason for them to be here. 

[bethy]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Who will apparently do anything to protect the people he loves. LOL.

Jack has acted in self defense and in defense of others as far as I remember. I don’t think he’s done something that left another person brain dead. Plus he’s still basically a baby. I’m tired of Dean and Sam and Cas using the same excuse over and over and over.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, bethy said:

I was troubled by Cas’s decision to do what he did to Donatello. I get that he’s in “warrior mode” but I don’t think he can justify what he did by comparing himself to a soldier. A soldier who injured a bound man for information to the point that there was brain damage would be court martialed, I’m pretty sure

Well that can be said for them exorcising demons and leaving the meatsuits in dire straits.  To me, Donatello had become a demon essentially. He could have actually killed Sam with that conk on his head? And I think that was his intention given he also sent Dean and Cas to be murdered by the Brothers "Gog". So at this point, Donatello, sadly was beyond saving. Could they have exorcised him? NOPE because he didn't have a twisted soul and they couldn't cure him.

IMO, Cas was right that it would have been more merciful to kill him than to leave him soulless and brain dead.

But to that end, this  smells of Buck Leming with the idea that simply removing ONE spell from his mind would cause that harm. I mean how does that even work? It doesn't really make any sense when I think about it. Now if Cas had decided that he was removing ALL the info Donatello ever had and he was removing Asmodeus influence then maybe I can see why that would have left him a vegetable but honestly, it really doesn't make any sense.

Also, now that I think about it. If Donatello was massively affected by that spell, what is it going to do to Cas going forward? Are we going to get Crazy!God!Cas again?

I don't know, I shouldn't have thought about this again LOL.

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Who will apparently do anything to protect the people he loves. LOL.

But only Cas is the bad guy for doing that....

[gonzosgirrl]

Seems to me Donatello was already way off the deep end with his rambling and plotting. @catrox14 I think it was the tablet more than the knowledge of the spell that was making Donnie cuckoo for cocoa puffs.

As for the 'sacrifice' of Donatello, it's pretty much a classic case of the good of the many outweighing the good of the one. Dean did it and chose Sam, Sam did it and chose Dean. This time Cas chose the good of the many. I'm okay with that, but I do agree killing him outright would have been a kindness. I feel like there has to be some reason they've kept him alive beyond not having Cas actually murder a human.

14 minutes ago, bethy said:

Jack has acted in self defense and in defense of others as far as I remember.

In the big picture though, this is what Cas did - he's defending the world from invasion and sacrificed Donatello to do it.

[SueB]

34 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I think it's a plot hole that Jack could open rifts before he was born, but he can't open them now. 

I liken it to a cosmic event was about to happen and the power was kinda leaking around.  Jack didn't intentionally open a rift from the womb, but power was leaking out of Kelly.  Now why that power turned into a leak into another universe, not sure.  

I go back to Cas seeing Jack create a paradise.  I think that Paradise will end up being AU world.  I think that was set up by how much Jack liked the people.  And Bobby will be there to guide him.  But first he has to defeat Michael.  

Of course if Jack stays in AU world, how will Cas feel?  I personally think this is what he's destined for but will also make the choice (Free Will and all) to do this.  It's a perfect use of his powers, prevents him from unbalancing our universe.  

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

. I feel like there has to be some reason they've kept him alive beyond not having Cas actually murder a human.

Here's a question. Is Donatello a human if he has no soul? That was always what I wondered about with Soulless Sam. Isn't that why Dean wanted to put it back because Sam had become human adjacent? And then we have an entity who is supposed to be protected by archangels so shouldn't Lucifer have coming in from Heaven to protect this prophet or does that protection no longer apply to a soulless prophet?