S01.E05: Hildebrandt's Starling

[formerlyfreedom]

The team learns more about the killer. Moore and Sara share an intimate moment. Kreizler seeks advice from an old mentor. Roosevelt takes action.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

[eejm]

I got some major mommy issue vibes from this episode, from the Isaacsons' uncomfortable dinner to Willem's temper tantrum to Kreiszler's outburst about women.  And speaking of Kreiszler and mommy issues, does anyone else see any parallels between Kreiszler and Kaiser Willem II?  The latter had a disabled arm, a God complex, and a very troubled relationship with his mother.  While we don't know anything about Kreiszler and his mother, his outburst at Sarah's suggestion seems to indicate some sort of tension. 

Holy buckets, Moore's grandmother's place is crazy fussy.  I know the decor is standard Victorian, but all of the doilies and plates and plants and knickknacks are visually just too freaking much.  I like seeing Grace Zabriskie again, though.  She's always a delight.

Nice touch having February 19 be such an important date in the killer's timeline.  

Ha!  Sarah got to Kreiszler with the whiskey.  He was drinking it again during the scene with Roosevelt.  

What's up with Willem giving his would-be victim a milk bath? 

Edited February 20, 2018 by eejm

[Neurochick]

Willed was into...whatever he was into.

Kreiszler and Sara’s argument was about how the mother could have something to do with the killers “becoming.”  Kreiszler felt that no way could a woman be involved, but Sara was trying to tell him that a woman could play a part as well.  When Kreiszler showed Sara the woman in the park, last week, he was saying, “that’s what women do,” but Sara was try to tell him that women were capable of being sinister as well.

[tennisgurl]

Loved the awkward dinner at the Isaacsons place. So many attempts at engaging mom, which seemed to be constantly shut down by a very silent mother. The theme of the episode seemed to be "mommy issues", which just about everyone seems to have on some level here. 

Sarah gets a win on Kreiszler, and Kreiszler actually gave her some props! I also enjoyed the whole scene where Sarah was talking to the Isaacson brothers about orgasms, in an awkward, Victorian kind of way. 

Moore is still not doing well, but he is really trying to keep it together. This case seems to be stirring up some old memories, which is probably just going to keep getting more and more prevalent. He looked super uncomfortable in his grandmas super pink, doily land, probably more uncomfortable than he did talking to a chained up child killer. 

[TrininisaScorp]

Man, all the mommy issues.  Is this Lost or a Whedon show?!

I'm feeling like Sara is the linchpin of the operation, and today she really gave as good as these men give her.  I love it!  I love that she left both Moore and Kreiszler hanging and her very uncomfortable discussion with the Isaacsons about how...the mechanics work.  Oy gevalt, indeed.   Also, I plan on calling someone "intractable" as soon as the situation presents itself!   Kreiszler's MO on relationships with people seems to be 1 step forward, 2 steps back.   Kreiszler's outburst at Sara was very, VERY telling.  As we have found, he is good at dishing it, but he certainly can't take it. 

Capt. C is going to try to pay Roosevelt in kind for the firing and his perceived humiliation. 

So our murderer is going for holy days...I have no idea how that helps us, but it is interesting. 

Silver Smile scares the daylights out of me.  Totally freaks me out!  Then, I met his mommy...

[tennisgurl]

32 minutes ago, TrininisaScorp said:

Silver Smile scares the daylights out of me.  Totally freaks me out!  Then, I met his mommy...

We`re probably going to end the season with them both disappearing under a new name, and we see them introducing themselves as the Bates family...

[Hazel55]

3 hours ago, eejm said:

What's up with Willem giving his would-be victim a milk bath? 

 

I'm pretty sure that was supposed to be the "grooming" typical of pedophiles like Willem. He was flattering the boy, showering him with gifts (the dress, the liquor, the nice room), giving him previously unheard of luxuries (of which the milk bath was probably one)-- all methods to earn the boy's gratitude, and make him feel indebted. And whatever Willem was slipping into the kids drink was (IMO) supposed to indicate that simple sex with a 14 or 15 year old kid was simply not enough for Willem; he also needed to roofie the said kid beforehand, just for that extra bit of fun/ control. 

However, I believe the scene near the end with Willem's mother was meant to indicate that she may have molested/ sexually abused him at some point during his childhood or adolescence. Could be a red herring, but that scene was the first one in which I felt a bit of pity for 'ol Willem. (Up until then, he'd simply thoroughly creeped me out in each and every scene. 

I liked Kreitzler's development this week, and am enjoying the way in which this show is refusing easy answers as to why people kill, as well as why we all do what we do. Is Jesse Pomeroy a victim of a warped mindset caused by his deformity, or simply a sociopath? Is Kreitzler a dick to Sarah because in his arrogance,  he believes in himself too much (as Sarah seems to believe), or because, in his insecurity, he needs to convince all those he respects of his infallible ? (The fact that Kreitzler also has some (Mommy? Daddy?) issues of his own goes without saying.) Does Sarah's rebellious, unflagging confidence in herself come from the fact that she was encouraged in this belief from an early age, or because she's spent the second half of her life having it discouraged? The writers don't really give us any easy answers, and I for one like that. 

I am torn about the Issaccson's awkward family dinner. On the one hand, I loved seeing more of them, and their stories were cute in this scene. Furthermore, it was great to get a scene that actually furthered the character development, rather than just more shots of Marcus having sex. On the other hand, I'm not crazy about the portrayal of Mrs. Isaacson as the stereotypical overbearing, disapproving  Jewish mother. I mean, oy vey. And she didn't even get one line throughout the entire dinner. (Which, I'll admit, was also kinda funny.) 

I'd like to concede with all those thus far who've recognized the Sarah/ Isaacson conversation as one of the funniest bits throughout the series. (Right up there with "SYPHILLIS !!!!" "I....beg your pardon?") Though I'm actually not crazy about the Isaacson's drooling over Sarah in every scene. They're obviously both supposed to be attracted to her/ find her distractingly hot, but I'd like it better if they all just became platonic buds. (After all, both John Moore and Kreitzler have already been attracted to Sarah at some point throughout the series. Does every dude have to have a boner for her, as all the dudes typically do for The Girl in the group?)

I missed Cyrus and especially Mary this week. And where the heck is Stevie?

Edited February 20, 2018 by Hazel55

[festivus]

I'm liking Sara more and more each episode. She had them both on the ropes tonight.

[pezgirl7]

Another great episode! Random thoughts:

I had a feeling Willem was molested by his mother, and now I think I'm right. It was weird seeing him sit on the bed and talk the way he was with his mother. He seemed like a child.

John's "proposal" was cute, and it was nice to see Sara smile for once. Although I don't want to see them as a romantic paring, I liked that John stopped drinking for her. Or at least because he realized he wants to move on and the drinking isn't helping anything. The hand tremors were a nice touch. I have a feeling he might start drinking again soon though. I'm glad we got to see more of Grandma Moore again, and her reaction to the phone is always funny. John always looks positively bored around her though.

I really loved seeing Teddy taking things into his own hands, and kicking Sergeant Connor off the force. That was long overdue. Teddy riding through the park was nice too.

So apparently it's May already. I think they could have done a little better job at showing the passage of time.

With all the mommy issues going on, I'm going to guess the killer also has mommy issues.

[thuganomics85]

As satisfying as it was watching Roosevelt can Connor, I so think this is not the last of him.  He's totally one of those weaselly side antagonists, who keeps managing to keep his head above the fray, and not go down without a fight.

Nice seeing Sara be more assertive with Moore and especially Laszio, who really seems to have major issues.  I wonder why the idea of a woman/mother possibly playing a part in how the killer has become who he is, seems to be so foreign to him?

So, Laszio now thinks that the killer's murders are related to the important days in the Christian calendar.  I still think it won't be Willem; or if it is, there is way more to it; but he and his mother are certainly a pair.  Also, I don't why that I didn't notice it last episode, but he's totally Pyp from Game of Thrones!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Loved Sara giving Moore and Laszlo some attitude. I guess that means we can call them Team I now since we have Indolent John, Intractable Laszlo, and the Isaacsons.

Ha, I will never tire of seeing Susan Ross's mother freak out every time the phone rings.

Good to know that the fake out existed even in 1896. Thanks, Jesse!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Clip: Will you marry me?

[libgirl2]

Willem and his mother.... creepy. I don't think he is the murderer, it just seems to obvious now (and I haven't read the book so no spoilers). 

I loved Sara in this episode. She was validated as an important part of this investigation and you could see how much it meant to her. And that conversation with the brothers about how men go about it was amusing. 

I don't trust that cop as far as I can throw him, but at least I know he can't kill Roosevelt! 

[janey99]

I really enjoyed the show last night, especially Sarah's sly emergence as a force to be reckoned with.  I hope Lazlo's hubris gets "fixed" by his relatively harmless interactions with Sarah, rather than via a less forgiving character.  (Like almost getting his eye stabbed out by a gameplaying criminal asylum resident with a hidden shiv, who has just tricked him about the origin of his issues.)

Also loved watching Teddy do a cross country course through Central Park - wouldn't that be fun!

[libgirl2]

27 minutes ago, janey99 said:

I really enjoyed the show last night, especially Sarah's sly emergence as a force to be reckoned with.  I hope Lazlo's hubris gets "fixed" by his relatively harmless interactions with Sarah, rather than via a less forgiving character.  (Like almost getting his eye stabbed out by a gameplaying criminal asylum resident with a hidden shiv, who has just tricked him about the origin of his issues.)

Also loved watching Teddy do a cross country course through Central Park - wouldn't that be fun!

That is one of the reasons he is my favorite president! I can so see him doing that. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by libgirl2

[jbrecken]

The old "Silence of the Lambs" door knock switcheroo didn't surprise me, and actually made me roll my eyes.

[BingeyKohan]

7 hours ago, jbrecken said:

The old "Silence of the Lambs" door knock switcheroo didn't surprise me, and actually made me roll my eyes.

Hoping they meant that as straight-up homage. ‘Starling’ was in the episode title, even.

I don’t see Willem as being a climber, another reason he’ll be ruled out as the killer. But for Sarah to be right (and I do want her to be right) the killer will also have to have had a traumatic mother relationship.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Clip: The truth is

[Reality police]

I agree with most. Willem creeps me out and I don't think he is the killer. Too easy. Sarah rocks!

[sjohnson]

Willem does not seem to be a climber. Even more, he gives things, not promises, to seduce his boys. So at this point I have to agree with those who can't see Willem as the killer.

But, Willem was identified by one of the victims. The idea that this is just a coincidence is remarkable, and really smells like rotten red herring.

[Morrigan2575]

20 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

Willem does not seem to be a climber. Even more, he gives things, not promises, to seduce his boys. So at this point I have to agree with those who can't see Willem as the killer.

But, Willem was identified by one of the victims. The idea that this is just a coincidence is remarkable, and really smells like rotten red herring.

Unless the killer is one of Willem's previous encounters that went horribly wrong? Maybe the killer is seducing Willem's boys and then killing them as part of some weird self hatred? They're just like me and I hate me and what he did to me so I have to kill them?

Just a crazy thought/guess.

[tessathereaper]

50 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Unless the killer is one of Willem's previous encounters that went horribly wrong? Maybe the killer is seducing Willem's boys and then killing them as part of some weird self hatred? They're just like me and I hate me and what he did to me so I have to kill them?

Just a crazy thought/guess.

Wow that would be a great idea.  It really would be because it would fit really well with the psychological aspect of the show by sort of showing the chain of damage - from (potentially) Willem's mom to Willem to one of Willem's victims.

[bosawks]

I admit to  stress releasing chuckle when Willem's possible victim asked if he could keep the dress.

[pezgirl7]

10 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Unless the killer is one of Willem's previous encounters that went horribly wrong? Maybe the killer is seducing Willem's boys and then killing them as part of some weird self hatred? They're just like me and I hate me and what he did to me so I have to kill them?

Just a crazy thought/guess.

I have a feeling that the killer is actually older than Willem, or at least they're around the same age. Per the handwriting expert, I think they said he would be no older than 35. Also, the group seems to think something happened to the killer when he was a child, to make him act out the way he is. So Willem would have been a child too. I think Willem is just a red herring. He seems to be interested in the boys for sex, while the killer wants to kill and eat them. Ugh, did I just type that?

[Neurochick]

10 hours ago, sjohnson said:

But, Willem was identified by one of the victims. The idea that this is just a coincidence is remarkable, and really smells like rotten red herring.

It could be that the Willem had a "relationship" with one of the victims.  One of the boys told Moore that the man, the killer I assume, was an angel.  Willem is there to throw us off, I bet he's not the killer at all.

[BingeyKohan]

12 hours ago, Neurochick said:

It could be that the Willem had a "relationship" with one of the victims.  One of the boys told Moore that the man, the killer I assume, was an angel.  Willem is there to throw us off, I bet he's not the killer at all.

Agree. If the killer is climbing onto rooftops and swooping into bedrooms though the window could be that no one has seen him but the victims.

[Hazel55]

On 2/19/2018 at 9:20 PM, Neurochick said:

Kreiszler and Sara’s argument was about how the mother could have something to do with the killers “becoming.”  Kreiszler felt that no way could a woman be involved, but Sara was trying to tell him that a woman could play a part as well.  When Kreiszler showed Sara the woman in the park, last week, he was saying, “that’s what women do,” but Sara was try to tell him that women were capable of being sinister as well.

To be fair I believe that in most cases, Kreitzler realizes quite well that women are just as capable of “Being sinister:” or violent as men. When his thinking is not warped by pride and (almost surely) his own personal and psychological issues, Kreitler not only sees that women are capable of doing horrible things, but can intuitively discern why they do them.

I believe that the scene in the park illustrated Kreitzler and Sarah’s very different ways of thinking. Sarah is a rational thinker, approaching everything from a logical, fact based perspective. To her, the facts are clear: the mother in the park killed her children slowly and with probable foresight, and thus is has shown herself to be callous, cruel, and beyond human empathy. (A conclusion that is perhaps technically correct; and certainly, one that most people, in the Victorian era and today, would agree with.)

Kreitzler, however, views the world differently. In contrast to Sarah’s rational mindset, he is a very intuitive, subjective thinker who is oftentimes more concerned about feeling and the motives behind actions than about facts. He attempts to “get inside the woman’s head,” to view life from her perspective, to ask why she did what she did. There are obviously enormous flaws in this way of thinking, his different perspective also allows him to occasionally see things that purely logical thinkers like Sarah Howard cannot.

Because while many would agree with Sarah Howard that what the woman did was unforgivable, it’s also clear from a modern viewpoint that the woman walking through the park talking to babies who aren’t’ there is mentally ill. The woman is almost surely suffering from what we’d term today as postpartum psychosis. Sarah Howard may have been technically right (in the eyes of many) about how much sympathy the woman deserved, but in terms of discerning why the woman did it, Kreitzler was far more able to get at the truth than her.

Meanwhile, at other times (such as this week) Sarah’s logical thinking and fact based arguments have been far more useful than Kreitzler’s intuition. I believe that the show is illustrating that in this investigation both ways of thinking, and viewing the world, will prove necessary. Which is a fact that I think Sarah Howard clearly understands, but Kreitzler does not. Because this week’s fight clearly illustrated that while Sarah Howard is willing to collaborate and allow arguments against her theories, Kreitzler is not.

So while I agree that Kreitzler’s ideas this week were wrong, Sarah’s right, I don’t think that it’s because Kreitzler idealizes women. I believe his empathetic way of thinking actually allows him a slightly better understanding of women in general than Sarah has.

That said, Kreitzler was totally in the wrong this week, Sarah in the right. Kreitzler is clearly allowing his pride and certain personal issues to color his theories on the case, and he lacks the self-awareness to realize it. Both Sarah and Kreitzler are highly confident in their theories; however, Sarah’s theory is based on actual facts; Kreitzler’s is based on absolutely nothing but his personal biases. Furthermore, Sarah was capable of arguing like an adult, backing up her arguments against Kreitzlers (unfounded, unsupported) theories with relevant facts from the case. Meanwhile, Kreitzlers “argument” consisted of basically shouting, “Well… I am right, and you suck!” Then throwing a piece of chalk like a ten-year-old. Sarah is clearly capable of discussion, mature argument, and collaboration; Kreitzler is not.

Kreitzler’s biggest flaw seems to be an utter lack of self-awareness. Though he’s an intuitive thinker, he honestly believes himself to be a rational one: in his mind, he is a scientist who views things from a factual, analytical perspective. And in this case his thinking is clearly even more biased and subjective than usual. He cannot abide being challenged, and has yet to consciously realize that while some of his intuitive conclusions here (his realization that the killer comes from an immigrant background, his realization that the murders are taking place on holy days), some of his biggest ones (the killer had an abusive father, but not an abusive mother) are not.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Behind the scenes:

[paisley]

I have some random thoughts I'd like to share:

1) Does anyone else think the priest was extremely shady? I would consider him a suspect except for the physicality needed for the climbing aspect. But maybe its some kind of weird combo killer thing.

2) I'm sincerely hoping that Sarah doesn't get "damseled". No kidnappings or other clichés. And if that does happen with the terminated police captain I hope she gets to rescue her damn self.

3) It would be interesting if John got "damseled" instead.

4) No love triangles.

5) I agree that the lighting is very dark and I'm probably missing some of the visuals but that may not be a bad thing. I've got an understanding of what's going on.

I'm enjoying this show more than I have anything else in a long time. I've had some bad TV experiences recently so its nice to be intrigued and not immensely annoyed by what I'm seeing. Good job TNT.

Also I admire the insightful , educational posts I'm seeing here.

Edited February 25, 2018 by paisley
By is not but (typo)

[tessathereaper]

On 2/25/2018 at 12:21 AM, paisley said:

I have some random thoughts I'd like to share:

1) Does anyone else think the priest was extremely shady? I would consider him a suspect except for the physicality needed for the climbing aspect. But maybe its some kind of weird combo killer thing.

2) I'm sincerely hoping that Sarah doesn't get "damseled". No kidnappings or other clichés. And if that does happen with the terminated police captain I hope she gets to rescue her damn self.

3) It would be interesting if John got "damseled" instead.

4) No love triangles.

5) I agree that the lighting is very dark and I'm probably missing some of the visuals but that may not be a bad thing. I've got an understanding of what's going on.

I'm enjoying this show more than I have anything else in a long time. I've had some bad TV experiences recently so its nice to be intrigued and not immensely annoyed by what I'm seeing. Good job TNT.

Also I admire the insightful , educational posts I'm seeing here.

John's already been damseled.  Do they really need to "damsel" him again?

[Hazel55]

On 2/24/2018 at 11:21 PM, paisley said:

2) I'm sincerely hoping that Sarah doesn't get "damseled". No kidnappings or other clichés. And if that does happen with the terminated police captain I hope she gets to rescue her damn self.

3) It would be interesting if John got "damseled" instead.

IMO, at this point John is playing the role generally assigned to "the woman" of the group; Sarah is playing the role of "the hero," and, at this point, Kreitzler is something of an anti-hero. (At first he seemed the hero of the piece-- the handsome, brilliant, misunderstood genius going up against society to assemble a team of outcasts and outsmart an killer. However, around episode three, he started showing a dark side; at this point he's walking a fine line.) 

Because while its questionable at this point whether Kreitzler will be able to see this thing through with his sanity in tact, Sarah Howard is growing progressively stronger and more assertive, and seems to be priming to take on a leadership role. She's also the emotionally strongest and least emotionally driven of the three, which may mean she will prove more capable of leading the group to the answer than the Dr. or John Moore. 

Meanwhile, John is by far the most emotional, and emotionally driven, member of the team. Many of the things he's done in the past few episodes are generally actions reserved for "the girl" in the group.  In a traditionally "female" way, he is not only emotional and sentimental, but something of a "comforter" and a "caretaker." Many of his more altruistic actions-- comforting Mary with a date when he realizes she's hurt; attempting to smooth things over between Sarah and Kreitzler; going out of his way to help random street kid Joseph—are actions we’d generally expect the lone female on a male dominated drama to do. However, in this case the most emotional, maternal, and sentimental person on the team is not Sarah Howard, but John Moore. In fact, he seems to be playing the role of “the girl” in every possible respect, right up to being uncomfortable with violence, needing to be constantly physically rescued by those around him, getting the team into trouble through lack of skill, and caring more about romance than the task at hand (after all, it was Sarah Howard, and not the quest to find the killer that finally led him to stop drinking. ) 

18 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

John's already been damseled.  Do they really need to "damsel" him again?

I actually wouldn't totally mind it (as outlined above, its interesting role reversal, at least), however, I pray the writers don't do it in the sloppy, borderline offensive manner they did it last time John got into trouble. 
 

The last time he got damsled, it seemed that every possible thing (from the cliffhanger ending to Connor's cracks about him "not being able to sit down) was done to make viewers suspect/ fear he was sexually assaulted. And then the storyline was just.... dropped. And John being roofied (and possibly raped?) was just played for laughs, which was incredibly weird. 

So, I guess if they're going to damsel John again, I hope they a. inform us of what happened to him the last time, which they never really bothered to do and; b. don't involve any hints or implications of drugging drinks and rape this time. 

On 2/24/2018 at 11:21 PM, paisley said:

2) I'm sincerely hoping that Sarah doesn't get "damseled". No kidnappings or other clichés. And if that does happen with the terminated police captain I hope she gets to rescue her damn self.

IMO, even if she gets attacked once, she's going to come out as the main hero in the end. To my mind, the biggest trap the writers show of falling into at this point is to over heroize Sarah so that she becomes superhuman/ a Mary Sue. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Sarah playing the heroes role, but if she literally saves everything, it may be a bit unbelievable. Leave some heroism to some other folk as well. For instance, I wouldn't mind seeing John step up, or the Issacsons get something cool to do that doesn't involve delivering exposition, forensic science factoids, or comic relief. But I suspect that instead of showing some heroism of their own, all of these characters may just end up getting humbled by Sarah Howard, than subsequently rescued by her. 

[88Keys]

On 2/24/2018 at 11:21 PM, paisley said:

 

5) I agree that the lighting is very dark and I'm probably missing some of the visuals but that may not be a bad thing. I've got an understanding of what's going on.

 

A few episodes back, someone suggested watching with the lights off.  I've done that ever since, and it makes a big difference.  

 

20 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

John's already been damseled.  Do they really need to "damsel" him again?

Speaking of that, are we ever going to find out why that happened, and how it impacted him?  It seems like they forgot about it.

[millennium]

The show is starting to drag.   Devices shamelessly ripped from Silence of the Lambs, both book and movie, i.e., the visit to the prison to consult a lunatic, the old wrong address switcheroo in a dramatic moment ... then the killer being spirited away to safety by his mother, all while Kreisler goes around behaving like a raging dick.  Lots of exposition.  Boring.

I'm starting to call this phenomenon the "Marvel slump," that point in a series where everything starts feeling like filler and you realize the story might have been better served by a shorter run of episodes.