Speculation Without Spoilers

[stealinghome]

I kinda wish they had saved Lambert's death for 5x11 or 12. A ramp-up to (I assume) Greer's climactic death in 5x13!

Edited May 31, 2016 by stealinghome

[DeepRunner]

27 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

I kinda wish they had saved Lambert's death for 5x11 or 12. A ramp-up to (I assume) Greer's climactic death in 5x13!

Yeah. Even so, I think the ride over the final four episodes will be exhilarating, heart-wrenching, adrenalizing, soul-crushing, and, finally, make us long for characters who have stood the test of time. What began as Reese and Finch, and grew to add Carter and Fusco and Root and Shaw and Zoe and Elias and Leon and, yes, Bear, has grown into characters PoI fans care about.

I will miss this show when we reach the two worst words in English: The. End.

[johntfs]

I think we're finally getting to the core question/conflict of the show, which has not and has never really been Ca the Machine defeat Samaritan?  That answer is "Yes."  It's always been "Yes."  If we think of the two ASIs as dogs (which is, of course, the reverse spelling of god), Samaritan is a Rat Terrier, while the Machine is a Belgian Malinois like Bear.  In an open fight, Bear would kill a rat terrier.  However, the Machine is too well trained and won't fight back in an effective way unless the order is given in the right way and by the right person.

So, really the question of the show is: Will Harold Finch display the trust and moral courage to release the Machine to use her full power to take action in the world before he (and the team) and killed/captured by Samaritan and its agents?

[kwnyc]

Well...following last night's episode, I will revise my earlier prediction that the Machine and Shaw will somehow fuse. Since it was Root who was subsumed into The Machine (and I hope she gives herself a name), I think the person the voice (Machine w/Root's voice) was addressing in the flash-forward at the very start of the season is Shaw. Prediction: Reese & Finch both die, Lionel disappears with his son, Shaw is the last (human) member of Team Machine standing.

[Rumsy4]

I too think Finch is a goner. It is pretty significant that he locked everyone out of the system. Once he gives the Machine the "go" order--only he can do it according to Root before she died--there won't be any going back. However, I'm not sure why the Machine would have to remind Shaw of everything, if that is whom she was addressing in the flashforward. Unless the chip Greer had implanted in her brain causes her to lose her memories. 

[stealinghome]

Hm. I don't know that I think Finch will die, but at this point I would agree that he can't go back to just doing the numbers ever again--especially since Reese is pretty certain to die imo. I think Finch either dies or goes off to live in Italy with Grace (there's been SO MANY mentions of her recently, part of me thinks that has to be building to something).

I agree that Shaw (and Bear!) will still be standing at the end of the series, working either relevant or irrelevant numbers with The Machine-as-Root in her ear. I actually think Fusco's fate is in some respects the most wide open (though I think he'll survive)--I could see him and Lee disappearing, I could see him continuing to work with Shaw if she takes on the irrelevant numbers, and if she takes on the relevant numbers I could see Fusco just going back to his normal life as a changed, much improved man and cop. That might be TM's finest legacy if so.

[DeepRunner]

53 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I too think Finch is a goner. It is pretty significant that he locked everyone out of the system. Once he gives the Machine the "go" order--only he can do it according to Root before she died--there won't be any going back. However, I'm not sure why the Machine would have to remind Shaw of everything, if that is whom she was addressing in the flashforward. Unless the chip Greer had implanted in her brain causes her to lose her memories. 

I think Finch lives, Shaw lives, and Bear lives. I think Reese and Fusco die. If the showrunners leave the door open a crack for future installments, instead of sealing off all the exits, I can't see it without Finch. Reese would be incredibly hard to replace, and Fusco has earned his stripes, but Finch is the one constant. He is the one who built it. Shaw you can keep in case she runs into Samuel from South Africa.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

I too think Finch is a goner. It is pretty significant that he locked everyone out of the system. Once he gives the Machine the "go" order--only he can do it according to Root before she died--there won't be any going back. However, I'm not sure why the Machine would have to remind Shaw of everything, if that is whom she was addressing in the flashforward. Unless the chip Greer had implanted in her brain causes her to lose her memories. 

I think The Machine is addressing Samaritan after their final conflict, a conflict that destroy most of Samaritan's memories and protocol.  I think The Machine decided to put Samaritan back together and raise "him" right, starting by telling him the history and players in their conflict.

I think the symbolism of the meeting in 4.10 was spot-on with Root the full-grown extraordinary woman speaking for The Machine and the arrogant little boy speaking for Samaritan.

On another topic, I love the way that Samaritan (and The Machine) are somewhat scarier than Skynet (or Ultron, etc).  Samaritan doesn't send a robot with a plasma gun after you if it wants you dead.  Instead, it has you arrested, dropped into a holding cell full of hardened criminals and gets one of them to beat you to death for money.  It uses the mechanisms of human civilization against you.  Which is way scarier.

[DeepRunner]

3 minutes ago, Kate213 said:

The finale title is 'Return 0' after all... 

Return 0 is a successful operation, as you likely know. I have wondered if it's a double entendre, meaning NO ONE returns.

[Jipijapa]

Return 0 also can mean the final operation of a program.

I honestly don't think any more major characters will die.  Root's death was very meaningful, and I think the writers are smart enough to know that more deaths would simply be gratuitous at this point.  I think Shaw will go off on her own (as always) and Fusco will return to a semblance of a normal life, and the show will end as it began with Finch and Reese.

[stealinghome]

13 minutes ago, DeepRunner said:

Return 0 is a successful operation, as you likely know. I have wondered if it's a double entendre, meaning NO ONE returns.

Well, the original title for the finale WAS "Everyone Dies Alone," per the writers....

I highly doubt no one makes it. I'm calling it now: Shaw, Fusco, and Finch live. Reese dies.

[Cranberry]

There will almost certainly be more deaths. The EPs said as much in one of their interviews:

AE: What can you say is coming next for these next episodes before the end?

GP: For fans who are mourning Root. Don’t worry. Root and Elias [Enrico Colantoni, also killed off in the episode], rather, they’ll have plenty of company by the time we finish.

JN: We can assure you it’s not gender politics.

AE: It’s kind of like [Agatha Christie’s mystery], And Then There Were None, where it’s just like gradually we’re just going to lose one after the other.

GP: We will go saying we’re trying to break your heart.

JN: The dog makes it. We can tell you that much.

---

My bet for last one standing is Fusco, though I wouldn't be shocked if Shaw makes it through, too. She's "died" enough already.

[elle]

Just now, Cranberry said:

JN: The dog makes it. We can tell you that much.

Smart!  Making sure to tell us that, because that is what we all want to know! :0)

 

1 minute ago, Cranberry said:

AE: It’s kind of like [Agatha Christie’s mystery], And Then There Were None, where it’s just like gradually we’re just going to lose one after the other

Which version though?  Original book, play, or movie or recent tv adaptation?

[Gigi43]

20 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

.

JN: The dog makes it. We can tell you that much.

 

 Which ultimately is all that matters. 

 

Though since Reese, Finch and Shaw are technically" dead" I can't help but think one of them at least is going to just re-fake die.

[stealinghome]

3 minutes ago, Gigi43 said:

 Though since Reese, Finch and Shaw are technically" dead" I can't help but think one of them at least is going to just re-fake die.

If Reese for real dies, I could see Finch faking his death where Shaw and Fusco are concerned. Others have said they could see the show riffing off The Dark Knight Returns--we see Shaw and Fusco mourning Root/Reese/Finch, but then our last shot of the show is Finch with Grace in an Italian cafe.

[Rumsy4]

Quote

“If you can hear this, you’re alone. The only thing left of us is the sound of my voice. I don’t know if any of us made it. Did we win? Did we lose? I don’t know. I’m not even sure I know what victory would mean anymore. But either way, it’s over. So let me tell you who we were. Let me tell you who you are. And how we fought back.”

Dissecting this monologue from the beginning of the season. It's clear now that it's the Machine speaking. 

If you can hear this, you’re alone.: Looks like the Machine is addressing surviving members of Team Machine.

The only thing left of us is the sound of my voice.: This seems to imply most of the original Team have died.

I don’t know if any of us made it.: How can the Machine not know if any of the Team made it? This part makes no sense to me.

Did we win? Did we lose? I don’t know. I’m not even sure I know what victory would mean anymore. But either way, it’s over.: This seems to suggest an open-ending to the Samaritan vs TM conflict.

So let me tell you who we were. Let me tell you who you are. And how we fought back.: To me this suggests memory loss of some kind. Could be that Harold has started exhibiting signs of dementia like his father. And the Machine is trying to remind her creator (father) of everything. Or it could be addressed to a potential new recruit of Team Machine.

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

I think the symbolism of the meeting in 4.10 was spot-on with Root the full-grown extraordinary woman speaking for The Machine and the arrogant little boy speaking for Samaritan.

That is a very clever way to contrast Samaritan and the Machine. In many ways, Samaritan is still an overconfident child genius, while the Machine is older and wiser.

28 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

If Reese for real dies, I could see Finch faking his death where Shaw and Fusco are concerned. Others have said they could see the show riffing off The Dark Knight Returns--we see Shaw and Fusco mourning Root/Reese/Finch, but then our last shot of the show is Finch with Grace in an Italian cafe.

That would be the best ending for Finch. I agree there's been way too much reference to Grace for it to be a throwaway. 

[kwnyc]

When I went to the Paley Center event last year, the showrunners were pretty adamant that nothing would happen to Bear. Unless they were trying to play us...

But I REALLY don't think they'd kill the dog.

[pennben]

I have a feeling/fear the whole show will have been a simulation, and the Machine is starting a new simulation at the end

[DeepRunner]

55 minutes ago, pennben said:

I have a feeling/fear the whole show will have been a simulation, and the Machine is starting a new simulation at the end

I have wondered that over the last couple of days. That would make it somewhat of a "St. Elsewhere" kind of ending. If that's the case, make it at least believable, and not like a kid with a snow globe, or, worse, Roseanne at a typewriter...

[Ellee]

6 hours ago, pennben said:

I have a feeling/fear the whole show will have been a simulation, and the Machine is starting a new simulation at the end

I think so, too, with the ending being open for all of TM members as dissatisfying/satisfying as that may sound.  The writers would have left things open for a possible pick-up.  There is so much story left to tell. 

This episode started off like usual but there was a glitch when Harold started talking.  Has that been in the beginning of every episode and I hadn't noticed it? 

[Good Queen Jane]

My prediction is that the Machine infiltrates Samaritan and corrupts both Samaritan's and its own programming, creating a new entity/program, under the control of no one. Team Machine turns Blackwell, who kills Greer. My hope is that Finch and Bear join Grace in Italy, Fusco carries on as a NYPD detective, that Reese's ex-CIA boss brings him back into the agency and Shaw goes to South Africa to work with Samuel, but I doubt that there will be such a happy ending.

[fastiller]

37 minutes ago, Good Queen Jane said:

My prediction is that the Machine infiltrates Samaritan and corrupts both Samaritan's and its own programming, creating a new entity/program, under the control of no one. Team Machine turns Blackwell, who kills Greer. My hope is that Finch and Bear join Grace in Italy, Fusco carries on as a NYPD detective, that Reese's ex-CIA boss brings him back into the agency and Shaw goes to South Africa to work with Samuel, but I doubt that there will be such a happy ending.

Please no.  I don't mind Greer being killed, I just really, really, really want that to be done by Shaw.  A compromise: Blackwell can facilitate in Shaw offing Greer.

[DeepRunner]

6 hours ago, fastiller said:

Please no.  I don't mind Greer being killed, I just really, really, really want that to be done by Shaw.  A compromise: Blackwell can facilitate in Shaw offing Greer.

I want Blackwell to kill Mona, the operative who recruited him. I want Shaw to kill Blackwell. Anyone's guess as to who kills Greer. Shaw is the likely candidate but don't rule out Finch as 1A.

[fastiller]

That sounds like a good order for things to happen in, @DeepRunner.

[DeepRunner]

So...the penultimate episode is called ".exe". As you all probly know, that's the extension for an executable. So, who will be .exe'd in this installment?

[elle]

What is the date for the final episode?

[Jipijapa]

I don't see them killing off anyone more, except maybe Reese.  (Fusco has a kid.  They're not going to kill him.)

I do see Finch being reunited with Grace.

I am thinking the ending is going to have the same kind of vibe as the end of the first Matrix movie, in which our heroes definitively get the upper hand though Samaritan is not definitively beaten, and the world is effectively transformed without being outwardly changed.  And it will end with a

[Gigi43]

9 hours ago, elle said:

What is the date for the final episode?

Tuesday June 21st. The final 3 will on Tuesdays now, Monday episodes are done.

 

In one of the discussions on PoIs Facebook page people are questioning if this is all a simulation. I've seem some spec in threads on this board too. I would be very disappointed  if they go that route, especially if they try to do the whole series as a simulation . Every show that's done "this wasn't real" as a series ender has made me feel cheated and even though PoI is about a machine stimulations and flashbacks I think it would seem like another show ending with that trope and it's been so original all along it just shouldn't go out that way.

[elle]

12 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

21 hours ago, elle said:

What is the date for the final episode?

Tuesday June 21st. The final 3 will on Tuesdays now, Monday episodes are done.

Thank you for this information!  I would have been very upset this coming Monday wondering what I had missed.  

[DeepRunner]

14 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

Tuesday June 21st. The final 3 will on Tuesdays now, Monday episodes are done.

 

In one of the discussions on PoIs Facebook page people are questioning if this is all a simulation. I've seem some spec in threads on this board too. I would be very disappointed  if they go that route, especially if they try to do the whole series as a simulation . Every show that's done "this wasn't real" as a series ender has made me feel cheated and even though PoI is about a machine stimulations and flashbacks I think it would seem like another show ending with that trope and it's been so original all along it just shouldn't go out that way.

I think I could handle "this wasn't real" if...IF...all the characters knew each other in "real life"...I don't want a Roseanne-at-the-typewriter ending, but it would almost be sorta, kinda, in a roundabout way, cool if this had really been Finch's online game that he had developed. The question would be who the gamer is on the other side.

But I think the ending is going to be something different from a simulation or a game.

[SnarkyTart]

I found it noteworthy that The Machine chose its voice (Root), but has yet to choose its name.  My guess is that in the end The Machine will choose a bird species as its name, maybe "Owl" in tribute to Harold's spectacles and his wisdom.  Whether that will be in homage to its deceased creator, or whether in homage to its now far-off-the-grid creator (somewhere in Italy with Grace) remains to be seen.  The Machine could subsume Harold's identity, probably close to 100% accurately, without Harold actually being dead.  Harold could effectively become two entities, his corporeal self and his A.I. self.  I can imagine Root and Harold continuing their philosophical debates into infinity via The Machine.  The Machine could also continue to grow and learn by playing out billions and billions of simulations of Root's and Harold's points of disagreement.  Like an eternal chess game. 

[mtlchick]

I may have teared up when Finch told Reese that he was such a good friend and Reese's "HAROLD!" at the end. 

 

Ok, I lie, I DID tear up, I'm going to be a mess next week.

[DeepRunner]

This promo shows PoI coming full circle, with Reese and Finch. Their relationship got lost somewhere on the road, with new players, and Root, especially, seemed to take center stage in Finch's world (just an observation, not a criticism). But PoI was, at first, and, at that time, foremost about a billionaire tech genius and his Special Ops soldier and protector.

[Trillium]

I've always thought this would end with both Reese and Finch dying, as prophecied in the pilot, so I mentally prepared. Or so I thought until I saw the promo. It's going to be a dagger right to the heart.   

[Rumsy4]

I'm convinced that Finch will manage to revive the Machine somehow, and that voiceover we heard at the beginning of the season was a recording it left itself, for such a contingency. The message seems open ended becasue the Machine recorded it before Finch inputed the password. So, it really didn't know what would happen to the Team. 

If you can hear this, you’re alone.: No more Samaritan.

The only thing left of us is the sound of my voice.: The recording she made is all that is left of the two ASIs.

I don’t know if any of us made it. Did we win? Did we lose? I don’t know. I’m not even sure I know what victory would mean anymore. But either way, it’s over.: Self-explanatory.

So let me tell you who we were. Let me tell you who you are. And how we fought back.: The Machine left instructions on how to rebuild itself and its vast memory database. The Machine has done it once, it can do it again. 

[Cranberry]

Extended promo:

[mtlchick]

GAH!  All the feels at once.  And I NEVER use that sentence.  

[kwnyc]

Oh, Geez. It looks like EVERYBODY gets shot (except Reese???)

[StarBrand]

Well, I find it hard to believe that the promo would blatently let us know which people die, and how. So there must be something else going on..

[FormerMod-a1]

These promos do not make me cry!  They do not!  Do you hear me?!

[kwnyc]

"Who lives, who dies, who tells your story..." (Sorry, I'm still in a "Hamilton" mood.)

[mtlchick]

Some slight spoilers for the (sob!) finale.  

 

http://tvline.com/2016/06/16/person-of-interest-series-finale-spoilers/

[StarBrand]

Quote

I'm convinced that Finch will manage to revive the Machine somehow, and that voiceover we heard at the beginning of the season was a recording it left itself, for such a contingency. The message seems open ended becasue the Machine recorded it before Finch inputed the password. So, it really didn't know what would happen to the Team. 

I'm with you on this. I'm pretty sure the whole monologue is referring to the ASI's no longer being around, rather than the team itself...

[fastiller]

Watching the extended promo, my thoughts - in random order - were:

1. Please don't let anyone die

2. Nice work Emerson, with the gun (at about .41-.42): really shows Harold's relative lack of experience with firearms.

3. Please don't let anyone die.

4. "HAROLD!!!" - Oh, what does that mean?!

5. Please don't let anyone die

6. Obligatory: we better see Bear at some point.

7. Please don't let anyone die.

[DarkRaichu]

Hmm, I am getting Star Trek: Wrath of Kahn flashbacks :(

Spoiler

It looked like Finch locked Reese in a vault

I still think Fusco & Shaw will inherit the subway train and continue the mission (a la Leverage)

[DeepRunner]

With apologies to Don McLean...

"I met a Shaw who sang the blues,

And I asked her for some happy news,

And she just smiled (ok, maybe growled) and turned away.

I went down to the subway train,

For one last chance to see the gang again,

But the Bear there said he hoped they'd be back somedaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy,

And in the streets, the tears had streamed,

The  audience cried and and then also dreamed,

But not a word was spoken,

The fanbase hearts were broken.

And the three folks I admire most,

The Reese, The Finch, and The Rootly Ghost,

Let's hope they leave Samaritan as utter toast,

The last day of PoI...."

[mtlchick]

Quote

Obligatory: we better see Bear at some point.

The producers have assured that Bear lives so we will see him. 

Edited June 17, 2016 by mtlchick

[SnarkyTart]

I can't recall ever being filled with so much dread at the prospect of an upcoming episode of one of my favorite shows.  I'm not sure if I can even make myself watch it, I'm already so sad about what might happen.

[mtlchick]

Quote

 I'm not sure if I can even make myself watch it, I'm already so sad about what might happen.

Hell, I normally don't eat Dairy Queen during the week.  Tomorrow, I'm getting the most calorie filled dessert they have.  I'll be needing due to the emotions I'll be having. 

[tessaray]

I couldn't resist tracking down the subtitle spoilers, so I know I will be a mess. (A mess with a bottle of Merlot and box of tissues.)  

It's so hard to wrap my head around the fact that this time tomorrow it will all be over.