Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[KingOfHearts]

Rewatched 1x12. The chalice Rumple has can easily pass as another cup besides the Holy Grail. It's just a golden goblet with no religious imagery whatsoever. I still don't see how it was a direct retcon.

What fans should really be asking about is that obvious sorcerer's hat in the background.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ But that's clearly the Arc of the Covenant in disguise, didn't you know????

Now that more and more people are pointing it out, it bugs me that Violet's and Hook's dreamcatchers are the same.

Is continuity that hard for ya, A&E? Really? Or was that the only dreamcatcher you had on hand when you filmed that episode? Do we need to start a #OnceUponAContinuity hashtag trend?

They need to sit down and rewatch their entire series.

Edited November 25, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[OnceUponAJen]

^ But that's clearly the Arc of the Covenant in disguise, didn't you know????

Now that more and more people are pointing it out, it bugs me that Violet's and Hook's dreamcatchers are the same.

I noticed that, but is it at all possible that those are Emma's memories? I mean, I know she has her memories clearly, but I just wondered why the dreamcatcher was the same for both.

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't know why she'd put her own memories in a dreamcatcher though.

Edited November 25, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Writing Wrongs]

This popped into my head for some reason: I wonder what happened to Emma and Henry's apartment? The just left their stuff, job and school behind without notice. I wonder if they were reported as missing by anyone.

[Faemonic]

This popped into my head for some reason: I wonder what happened to Emma and Henry's apartment? They just left their stuff, job and school behind without notice. I wonder if they were reported as missing by anyone.

Maybe that got sorted out in season 4's time skip. Henry got re-enrolled at school, Emma got re-elected as sheriff, one of them made a mention about Nealfire's apartment of mysteriously infinite lease and Regina gets a super-intense expression on her face because she hasn't slept in four days and says something like, "I will buy that New York apartment because we might need it some day for Operation Mongoose Interdimensional Headquarters." And Emma would be like, "Go to sleep, Regina. Oh but that reminds me the lease is up and the house-sitter who is Avery's university-age sister from the condo down the hall probably thinks we've gone missing. We should move our stuff back." Emma knows how to drive, and can borrow a van from anybody in town. Maybe Hook rode shotgun on the road trip and gave her a hand during the move.

 

Oh, Ingrid's magic barrier? What exactly did that even do? Aren't people like Emma, Henry, August, Hook, and Greg/Owen immune at times to the Town Line thing?

Edited November 25, 2015 by Faemonic

[pezgirl7]

I just saw this on Tumblr. It's pretty much confirmation that the writers pulled the whole Marian is Zelena plot out of their asses.

 

"I had no idea that I was coming back, so I was very nicely surprised when they called me and were like ‘do you want to be undead?’ I’m like ‘yeah!’ They’re like ‘by the way, you were Maid Marian the whole time.’ I’m like, ‘SHUT UP!’ They were like ‘AND, wait for it - ’ So I pull the car over - and they said ‘you’re pregnant with Robin’s baby.’ I’m like ‘OH MY GOD, […] I’M GONNA GET SO MANY HATE TWEETS."
—  Rebecca Mader, Heroes and Villains panel (via desperationandgin)

http://onceuponapodcast.tumblr.com/post/133764489283/i-had-no-idea-that-i-was-coming-back-so-i-was

[Mari]

Yeah. They can claim all they want that they were trying to maintain the element of surprise, but you can't exactly say this was the plan all along if you haven't made sure to contract the pivotal character in the storyline.

Desperation retcon.

If I were Marian's actress, I wouldn't be excited to work with A &E again, just because their retcon did such a hatchet job on the performance she gave in the first half of the season.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Mari

[KingOfHearts]

I feel really bad for Christie Lang. She did a good job at making Marian awesome and sympathetic. Too bad her acting went the wrong direction because of A&E's mishaps.

[HoodlumSheep]

I thought she was great as Marian too.

I wonder if we're over-thinking the personal dreamcatchers idea. Emma used one to see Pongo's memories, but does that make that dreamcatcher Pongo's?

Maybe she just used the one she had on hand for Killy's memories, which happened to be the one she used to see Merlin's memories and steal that one memory from Violet. I don't know. But then why didn't she just use one for everyone? Unless it had reached it's memory-holding capacity or something. And then she decided to be more organized with everyone else's?

I don't know.

Edited November 25, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Writing Wrongs]

I'm re-watching 4B and do they ever explain how Cruella got from the 1920s to the Enchanted Forest?

[Camera One]

They never clarified.  It's unclear whether she was already in the Enchanted Forest when Rumple "summoned" Cruella to join the other two Queens of Darkness in "Darkness at the Edge of Town" flashbacks.  How did she escape that "realm of storytelling"?  How did she get the car back after falling through the portal in "Best Laid Plans"?  We don't know how Rumple knew of her.  We don't know when/if she ever met Jim and Anita.  

 

There are actually lots of missing pieces in the stories of all three of the Queens of Darkness.  

Edited November 30, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Something I noticed when rewatching "Birth": When Regina and the Charmings are outside Emma's house, Regina talks about the reason Emma gave her the dagger, to keep her from doing anything too bad. But that happened after the memory wipe kicked in, and at that point, they didn't have their memories back. I don't recall anyone telling her about giving her the dagger. So how did Regina know she'd ever been entrusted with the dagger to keep Emma from doing anything?

[KAOS Agent]

Their memories were wiped from the minute they entered the castle in Camelot. Emma had already given the dagger to Regina by that point.

[HoodlumSheep]

^ i think the memory wipe kicked in at when they were walking into Camelot. So Emma giving Regina the dagger happened before that. That's why we have them walking and then the flash and they're back to Storybrooke. Or at least that's what I've been assuming this whole time.

*ninja'd

Edited November 30, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[KingOfHearts]

They just broke the "dead is dead" rule again. How can Nimue be inside Hook and be in the Underworld at the same time?

[InsertWordHere]

Why did Emma choose the Camelot entrance for the memory wipe? If her whole goal was to get Hook and everyone else to forget that he had been turned into the Dark One, shouldn't the memory wipe have been closer to that moment? It would have helped if they'd known Arthur was shady and what Zelena did in Camelot. Maybe she didn't want them questioning where Merlin was if they knew she had freed him, but she could have kept the memories up to that point. Unless the whole thing was so Henry would forget his heartbreak? It can't be them knowing that Excalibur needed to be put together, because that only helped her plans and she had a glamour spell on the sword anyway. Or was that Hook who put the spell on the sword?

 

Also, I know he's a seer and all, and he probably foresaw the curse and memory wipe, but why did Merlin leave that voicemail when the entire gang was standing right outside Granny's at the time? He couldn't have just written his message somewhere on Granny's wall where they would find it? 

[LizaD]

It's the DO "essence" of each that stuck around and accumulated but the real actual soul went to the Underworld. It's like how DO Rump was still around as Hero Gold is strutting his stuff.

[Shanna Marie]

Their memories were wiped from the minute they entered the castle in Camelot. Emma had already given the dagger to Regina by that point.

Oh, duh, right. Sorry. I guess I've successfully repressed most Regina stuff. I forgot that they remembered some of Camelot.

 

But yeah, it makes little sense to have blotted the memories from before they found out Arthur was shady. Wouldn't it have helped if they'd had at least that much info? And that would have provided some distraction, if Hook and the Charmings were too busy tracking down and stopping Arthur for Hook to have been investigating what Emma was up to.

[Rumsy4]

The only reason why Emma wiped the Camelot memories after they all had met Arthur was for in-story reasons. It would be need a lot of clunky exposition if none of the Nevengers recognized King Arthur or his cohort in Storybrooke. Plus the writers wanted the Nevengers to be clueless along with the audience about Camelot to avoid dealing with it.

Edited November 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[rwlevin]

Here's my nitpick. The reasoning why Emma didn't turn all shimmery initially was because she wasn't turned by evil yet. Why didn't Hook become all shimmery? Why didn't he turn shimmery when he crushed Merlin's heart? Why are Dark Ones no longer shimmery in the enchanted forest?

[Curio]

Here's my nitpick. The reasoning why Emma didn't turn all shimmery initially was because she wasn't turned by evil yet. Why didn't Hook become all shimmery? Why didn't he turn shimmery when he crushed Merlin's heart? Why are Dark Ones no longer shimmery in the enchanted forest?

 

Moisturizer.

 

Did we ever learn what Emma was doing when she made Excalibur glow yellow at the end of "Birth?" Did she just temporarily freeze her parents and Regina for a couple minutes?

[YaddaYadda]

Here's my nitpick. The reasoning why Emma didn't turn all shimmery initially was because she wasn't turned by evil yet. Why didn't Hook become all shimmery? Why didn't he turn shimmery when he crushed Merlin's heart? Why are Dark Ones no longer shimmery in the enchanted forest?

 

Because technically Nimue used him as conduit to crush the heart. The heart was crushed by him, but she was the one really doing it?

 

I think it's their loophole to say that Hook didn't really kill anyone in Camelot, and Merlin's death is all on Nimue instead.

 

Regarding Emma, they showed a sparkly hand, but I'd like them to explain that because Emma has light magic, this stuff doesn't work the same way with her, as it would with a regular Joe.

[Rumsy4]

Rumple was the shittiest Dark One ever. He could have channelled any one of the previous Dark Ones and used this "loophole" to crush someone's heart to cast the Dark Curse. He would have been reunited with Baelfire right away,

[YaddaYadda]

Rumple was the shittiest Dark One ever. He could have channelled any one of the previous Dark Ones and used this "loophole" to crush someone's heart to cast the Dark Curse. He would have been reunited with Baelfire right away,

But Rumple's problem was always that he wouldn't have magic in the LwM. 

[Rumsy4]

But Rumple's problem was always that he wouldn't have magic in the LwM.

All he needed was a True Love couple so he could make the love potion. He wouldn't even need a savior if he cast the Curse himself. Stripped down to its core, the Dark Curse merely transports people to a destination, and perhaps creates new town where there was none. So, he could go to the LwM, bring magic into the town he created, and find his son. Now, his son probably wouldn't want to go with him there, but Rumple had to take that chance as he needed magic as a crutch.

[KingOfHearts]

It's doubtful any of the DOs' loves were still alive. The only exception is Merlin who was trapped in a tree.

[Souris]

From Spoilers thread:

 

Question, how come Hook isn't scaly? He killed someone and yet he's as pretty as ever. I always assumed the reason why Emma wasn't scaly was because she didn't kill anyone but you're telling me only Hook's pretty can defeat the darkness? lol

 

Well, yeah. ;-)

 

Perhaps Merlin's murder counts on Nimue's scorecard, not his, since it was her love for Merlin that was used for the curse.

[Camera One]

That wasn't squid ink. That was just something else in a vial that was the same color.

 

Besides, gold took the keys to the safe with him when he left. 

 

Yeah, I too thought it wasn't squid ink.  Which confuses me... since when was there a magic liquid that dissolves magical cuffs?  Did I block something out from my memory?

 

That cuffs really gets around?  Why didn't they slap the cuff back on Zelena?  They can't seriously think Dark Emma is more dangerous. If they were going to take the cuff off Zelena, why didn't they bring the baby to her in the cell instead of let her out to go to Snow's apartment?  Why didn't Regina poof there with Zelena?

Edited December 2, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I've got a better question.

 

Why is Robin hanging out at Snowing's place? This is like the second time he's there on his own. First time was back in 5x01, he put Roland up to sleep upstairs. 

 

I know Emma was being held at Regina's, but still...

[Camera One]

I assumed it was because Zelena wouldn't know where to look.  I know, so stealth.

[Rumsy4]

Probably because the house used for Regina's interior is not available, and they can hardly show Robin hanging out with the baby in the forest. lol

 

But in-story, it makes the Charming-Mills-Hoods look very needy and codependent. 

[Camera One]

Maybe Robin Hood is the live-in babysitter now while Snowing are in the library reading Dark One Chronicles.

[Camera One]

What exactly in the MindRumple?  Is it actually MindNimue?  Is Nimue the only one who is communicating with the current Dark One from beyond the grave?  MindRumple isn't actually Rumple, or even an essence of Rumple, since he suggested killing himself.  Yet MindNimue had some leftover love for Merlin?  So MindRumple can't just be the "dark" figment of Dark Emma or Dark Hook's psyche?  This seemed to be confirmed by the fact that MindRumple talked to both Emma and Hook at once, as pointed out by someone in the episode thread.  Was MindZoso or whoever goading Rumple to get the Hat in 4A? 

 

I also don't get Merlin's plan from the beginning.  So the only way to cleave the Dark One from the darkness was to convince a Dark One to cleave themselves?  Aside from Emma, wouldn't that have been impossible?  No previous Dark One would have been willing to part from their power.  So what would Merlin have done if Cora was the Dark One right now?

Edited December 2, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I don't understand how Emma saving Hook was the darkest path Merlin saw her taking. So Emma giving in to power and killing Merlin and becoming the most powerful Dark One ever was not worse than her giving in to the Darkness out of love? And if he sees multiple paths and doesn't know which will happen, then why the hell did he tell six year old Emma to leave the sword alone?

[Camera One]

If anything, Emma is the only one who ever would have been capable of getting rid of Darkness forever.  Merlin needed her to fuse the sword and the dagger, didn't he?  If Emma had killed Zelena, then we wouldn't have corporeal Dark Ones coming up from the underworld.  Or did Merlin want that to happen?  All shall be answered next week. Or not...

Edited December 2, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I don't even understand the role of Excalibur, snuffing out the light or, or destroying the darkness. 

 

I guess that's the reason Hook left it behind in the end.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't even understand the role of Excalibur, snuffing out the light or, or destroying the darkness.

I'm guessing Excalbur's purpose in Nimue's plan and "snuffing out the light" will be addressed next week. That seems to be this season's final mystery. My guess is the "light" is referring to a specific person or thing, probably related to Clippy!Rumple's speech about loved ones. Cue new contrived element that resolves everything.

Edited December 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Back in 5x05, Arthur said that Excalibur in the wrong hands has the power to snuff out light magic. I've been wondering if that's a mistake in the writing, because snuffing out light magic means destroying the bearers of it. And that starts with Emma.

 

I'm assuming the darkness didn't really take in her because of her light magic. Even Clippy called her inefficient back in Camelot. The Dark Ones probably don't think much of her.

[Camera One]

snuffing out the light or, or destroying the darkness. 

 

It really is extremely vague.  It's an impending doom which is completely undefined, less defined than any previous arc cliffhanger.  Or at least matching in vagueness to "the author writing the villains a happy ending" which apparently involves trapping everyone in a book (?).  How was that even a true happy ending?

Edited December 2, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I don't understand how Emma saving Hook was the darkest path Merlin saw her taking. So Emma giving in to power and killing Merlin and becoming the most powerful Dark One ever was not worse than her giving in to the Darkness out of love? And if he sees multiple paths and doesn't know which will happen, then why the hell did he tell six year old Emma to leave the sword alone?

My current working theory is that the path he saw there was the one in which she tethered the darkness to Zelena and then killed her, which really would have been the darkest path for Emma. I don't think it would have gone well or worked the way she thought it would have. Maybe it would have removed the Dark One darkness from both her and Hook, but it might have turned her Savior magic dark, so she'd have become a new kind of Dark One -- much in the way that the Grail magic turned dark when Nimue killed. So Merlin was worried about Emma coming up with the Zelena plan and using Excalibur that way to save Hook. But Hook averted that plan, creating a path Merlin didn't foresee. Thus all the warnings ended up being moot.

[InsertWordHere]

 Which confuses me... since when was there a magic liquid that dissolves magical cuffs?  Did I block something out from my memory?

If Henry got it from Rumple's shop, then I'm guessing Rumple created something to nullify the effects of the cuff, since wearing it was technically the reason he died in Going Home. He did the same thing with the Dreamshade after it almost killed him. Suddenly there was an antidote to the deadly poison to use on David. 

 

It's Hook's heart removing potion being able to remove the cuff that bothers me, but I could go with the theory that he was unknowingly using his magic at the time, except neither Zelena or Hook questioned it.

[KingOfHearts]

 

If Henry got it from Rumple's shop, then I'm guessing Rumple created something to nullify the effects of the cuff, since wearing it was technically the reason he died in Going Home. He did the same thing with the Dreamshade after it almost killed him. Suddenly there was an antidote to the deadly poison to use on David.

I think Hook put a protection spell on the cuff and the magic stuff was to nullify that. The cuff itself can be taken off by anyone except the wearer normally. Zelena mentions a protection spell in 5x08 I believe. Regina had put one in place to stop her from cutting her hand off.

Edited December 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

I don't understand how Emma saving Hook was the darkest path Merlin saw her taking.

 

Maybe the other vision Merlin saw was a path where Arthur didn't tether Merlin to Excalibur, and Hook didn't get cut by the sword, and Emma was able to forge the dagger and Excalibur together with out a hitch?

Edited December 2, 2015 by Curio

[Faemonic]

Sorry if this was asked upthread, but...

 

Who gets to be part of the Dark One Hive Mind?

 

I suppose that Darth Jones won't be hallucinating Dark Swan Clippy because Dark Swan is still alive, but why do they both hallucinate Rumpelstiltskin Clippy when Merlin was technically the most recent Dark One? Both Merlin and Rumpelstiltskin survived their Tethered phases.

 

(I have no theories about why neither Emma nor Hook are scaly, but it sort of puts a damper on Zelena's evil monologue while she was shaving Rumple, about how both their outsides showed what was rotting within. Maybe they can look the way they want, like Zoso in disguise when he tried to convince peasant Rumple to steal the Dark One dagger from the Duke of the Frontlands.)

Edited December 2, 2015 by Faemonic

[InsertWordHere]

Hook (not sure about Emma since Merlin happened after her) should be seeing Merlin. Other than for a possible surprise twist in 5.11, it makes no sense that he's not. 

[HoodlumSheep]

I just figured they mainly see Rumple because that's who they've known as the Dark One for pretty much their entire experience. The image of the Dark One for Hook has been Rumple for 200 yrs., so that's going to be the image in his head. It makes sense to me. Maybe they just don't feel like calling upon Merlin's DO clippy? Like how they have to invoke Nimue.

Edited December 2, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[LizaD]

 

why neither Emma nor Hook are scaly

 

It's probably just a logistics thing. They did plan on Emma being glittery. She was spotted with the glittery makeup filming for the 1st episode in that feather dress, which never showed up onscreen. I think Robert said his imp makeup took like 3-4 hours? Both Emma and Hook film a whole lot so the actors' work day is already long to start with. Adding that extra time could make a difference in slowing down production when they're on a strict schedule.

[FierceAfroChick]

I loved that black feather dress...hate it really wasn't showcased on screen.

Edited December 2, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[snarkastic]

So Brennan said he left his boys on that ship 'NEARLY a century ago'. Which falls in line to what I always say, Hook being about 150 (century + 20 years aging + 30 years curse). BUT WHY MUST THE WRITERS CHANGE IT EVERY EPISODE! GAAH!!