Continuity, Nitpicks, Unanswered Questions and Timeline Headaches: When Did That Honeycrisp Apple Come From

[BelovedMaeve]

Is this the first time we've had actual confirmation that Snow was only ten when she met Regina? I know that was my supposition but at the same time I knew Bailee was 12ish at the time of filming so I figured Snow was anywhere between 9-12. 

[Mari]

Since Henry and Ingrid both arrived in Storybrooke well after the curse, why did only one of them age?

[FabulousTater]

My fanwank is that the Storybrooke non-aging aspect of the curse only works on people from the Enchanted Forest or other "magical" realms. So once Ingrid crossed over [into Storybrooke's town boundaries] it affected her by keeping her from aging because she's from a magical realm. Henry is from the Land Without Magic so the curse doesn't affect him at all. It's the same reason Regina re-casting the Curse in "Going Home" wouldn't take Henry back to the Enchanted Forest with everyone else and he was left behind. He's not from a magical realm so the curse has no affect on him. The curse seems to work on anyone that's not from the Land Without Magic.

 

*edited for clarity

Edited December 8, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

My fanwank is that the Storybrooke non-aging aspect of the curse only works on people from the Enchanted Forest or other "magical" realms

That's what I was figuring, that Henry was different because he was born in our world. Not being part of the curse just meant that Ingrid kept her identity and memories.

 

I suppose that means that if, say, Hook had come to Storybrooke via some other means while the time stopping part of the curse was still in effect, he wouldn't have aged, either, even if he retained his identity.

[KingOfHearts]

 

So once Ingrid crossed over it affected her by keeping her from aging because she's from a magical realm.

I believe it only started affecting her once she got to Storybrooke, otherwise it doesn't exactly work because she came over before the curse. Once the scroll gave her access, she got the anti-aging effects from the curse because she's from EF.

Edited December 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

I believe it only started affecting her once she got to Storybrooke, otherwise it doesn't exactly work because she came over before the curse. Once the scroll gave her access, she got the anti-aging effects from the curse because she's from EF.

That's what I meant by "crossing over". I was referring to when she crossed over the town boundary into Storybrooke, since that was the question I was responding to --  why Ingrid didn't age once she was inside Storybrooke and Henry did. I guess I wasn't clear enough.

Edited December 8, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

 

That's what I meant by "crossing over". I was referring to when she crossed over the town boundary into Storybrooke, since that was the question I was responding to --  why Ingrid didn't age once she was inside Storybrooke and Henry did. I guess I wasn't clear enough.

I'm sorry, I wasn't following the conversation. I just saw your post and couple of others. Thanks for clarifying! :)

[InsertWordHere]

In Shattered Sight, Rumple says he's going to perform the spell to cleave himself from the dagger "tomorrow night" and be on the other side of the wall "before dawn." Later on in that same scene, he tells Hook that Belle and Henry will wake up tomorrow morning in NYC and not remember a thing about tonight. I'm so confused. I mean, I guess it kind of works if it's supposed to be past midnight and "tomorrow night" means the night of that same day when it gets dark again, thus making "tomorrow morning" the morning of the next day, but it was really, really clunky dialogue. It is light out again when the Curse gets broken, and it didn't seem like Emma's jaunt to Regina's vault and the Ice Palace took too long, so it must have been in the early morning hours when Rumple said this, but still. Was he going to have Hook deliver Henry to the line and then camp out there for the entire day until it got dark again? I would wave it off it he said the latter part later in the same episode, as it would mean some time had passed, but it's glaring to have Rumple contradict himself in the same conversation.

 

I think typing this all out has confused me even more, if possible.

[Camera One]

Yeah, I thought the whole Rumple business in terms of his plans was really murky throughout "Fall" and "Shattered Sight".  I know it was on the backburner while Frozen and Snow Queen took front and center, but it makes so little sense that I can't take it seriously.  Not unlike the whole Searching for the Author of the Book subplot.  Now the Snow Queen is dead, and all we're left with are the crappy subplots.

[Rumsy4]

The other confusing thing Rumple mentioned was that the stars on the sky would be aligned with the stars jn the Hat the next night. What?? That's one giant ball of coincidence, considering the Hat is from the Enchanted Forest, where presumably, the night sky looks different. Also, how convenient that the stars happen to align the same time Rumple wants to leave Storybrooke, and has collected enough power to activate the Hat. Why add this random point in when it makes no sense? It's like it only just added to show why Rumple didn't crush Hook's heart right away.

[HeimrArnadalr]

Maybe it was just a figure of speech? 'When the stars align' could just mean when everything goes his way (he's got Belle and Henry, they're ready to cross the town line, etc.), with the hat thrown in to sound poetic (plus another part of things going his way is the hat having enough magic power, which also gives it plenty of stars). I don't think it's meant to be taken literally. 

[Mitch]

Rumple is also not inherintly magical. The only inherintly magical thing is his dager. Now if he had said he was going absorb the dager's power, then I could buy it but he wants to leave it. So how will he have magic in a Land Without Magic?

[KingOfHearts]

He's going to draw magic from the people in the hat. He'll have magic everywhere as long as he has the hat. I don't know if he needs to wear it or just hold it.

Edited December 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Rumple is also not inherintly magical. The only inherintly magical thing is his dager. Now if he had said he was going absorb the dager's power, then I could buy it but he wants to leave it. So how will he have magic in a Land Without Magic?

Because of the Hat. To be free of the Dagger, he needs the heart of someone who knew him before he became the Dark One. True Love's kiss would have worked as well, but he didn't want to lose his magic. So, I suppose Hook's heart will enable Rumple to be free from the Dark One's Curse, without losing his powers. The Hat will presumably grant him even greater powers and enable him to perform magic in the outside world. It's unclear whether he needs to be wearing the hat to do magic, or if he can simply absorb all that power. Hey! maybe all someone needs to do to defeat him is to knock off the hat from his head, or steal it from his nightstand.

[Mitch]

Because of the Hat. To be free of the Dagger, he needs the heart of someone who knew him before he became the Dark One. True Love's kiss would have worked as well, but he didn't want to lose his magic. So, I suppose Hook's heart will enable Rumple to be free from the Dark One's Curse, without losing his powers. The Hat will presumably grant him even greater powers and enable him to perform magic in the outside world. It's unclear whether he needs to be wearing the hat to do magic, or if he can simply absorb all that power. Hey! maybe all someone needs to do to defeat him is to knock off the hat from his head, or steal it from his nightstand.

 

 

Wow..that's really stupid...(the idea..not your post!)  Did they actually make that clear on the show or did we just piece that together, as I don't remember it! (Once again not insulting you but that is this show, you have to piece it all together.)

[KingOfHearts]

 

Wow..that's really stupid...(the idea..not your post!)  Did they actually make that clear on the show or did we just piece that together, as I don't remember it! (Once again not insulting you but that is this show, you have to piece it all together.)

The show has mentioned bits and pieces. I'm still a little confused by the exact mechanics of it, and how the hat itself fits in with releasing Rumple from the dagger. As Rumsy4 said, I'm not sure if he's going to just absorb the magic or require the hat. Requiring the hat would pretty much defeat the purpose, since he would still be relying on a stealable object for his power. It's all convoluted.

Edited December 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

Wow..that's really stupid...(the idea..not your post!)  Did they actually make that clear on the show or did we just piece that together, as I don't remember it! (Once again not insulting you but that is this show, you have to piece it all together.)

 

I think they explained it in the episode with Anna and Rumple. She basically pieced it together when holding the Dagger, and made Rumple tell her the rest. But there are several details that are still not clear. What Rumple plans to do in the outside world, for instance!! 

 

Requiring the hat would pretty much defeat the purpose, since he would still be relying on a stealable object for his power. It's all convoluted.

 

Exactly!!! However, I think Rumple's going to get a nasty surprise or two when the Hat doesn't behave exactly the same way he expects it to.....

[Shanna Marie]

The show hasn't spelled out exactly how the hat will work, but it has been pretty clear that Rumple believes that the hat offers the key to him managing to maintain his power without any control from the dagger and in a way that allows him to leave Storybrooke and still be powerful.

 

All other solutions for freeing himself from the dagger -- like True Love's kiss to break the curse or going to the World Without Magic where the magic of the dagger won't work on him -- require him to lose his power.

 

This is why he's willing to do so many shady things and take so many risks to make this hat thing work.

 

The stars on the hat seem to shift, and they get added as someone gets hatted, so maybe they're forming earth pattern constellations now that the fairies have been added.

[KingOfHearts]

So, during the original Dark Curse, did the characters feel time passing at all? Did it feel like thirty years had gone by when the curse broke? I know it was Groundhog Day and they couldn't keep track of time difference ("I've been working here for... as long as I can remember"). I wonder if after the curse broke the characters began to remember all the days that got erased.

[buildmeupbuttercup]

Oh this show…So I finally rewatched the 4A finale last night and one line in it unleashed an avalanche of questions regarding the DQ/Rumple history. When Hook is parroting Rumple in the diner he talks about the door portal that brought DQ to our world, but how would Rumple know about this?
How would he know Ingrid met with the Apprentice?
If he found out about it in the past, why wouldn’t he use the door method to get to the Land Without Magic instead of the damn 28 year curse?
How would he know the door is even in the sorcerer’s house or that that was the sorcerer’s house?
Why wasn’t the sorcerer (and his mega mansion) in Regina’s curse but was in Snow’s curse and how did he escape one and not the other?

 

Then I started thinking about the whole DQ arc and a slew of WTFs that are there from the start in Rocky Road. I love the Rumple/DQ scene at the end of that ep (it’s my favorite scene with them after "and I warn you don't underestimate it!") but nothing about it makes sense in hindsight now that we have seen all the flashbacks that we are going to get of DQ.

 

Upon meeting again, Rumple says "and Miss Swan didn't recognize you? That's good for you because she might and you wouldn't want that." (or something to that effect) but yet in 406 DQ wants Emma to find her old files in the ice cream truck and tells her as much in the next episode. She wanted Emma to find out her whole plan ahead of time, so why would Rumple think/say she would be worried about Emma recognizing her? Also, how the hell would Rumple know about Ingrid’s history with Emma??? Their last encounter (we know of) was when he stole urnElsa and told Ingrid when she’s ready to trade the hat box for the urn to call him. That’s pre-Ingrid meeting up with the Apprentice again/prophesy/land without magic. Are we supposed to believe Rump has been stopping by Any Given Sundae for a cone and she’s catching him up on her plan that’s 30 years in the making (and hinged on Emma and Hook going back in time and accidentally bringing the urn back with them??) and leaving nothing out like they are bffs? This is where the show has problems because they write these scenes with gotcha power (“ooh DQ knows Rumple somehow!!!”) but then the info doesn’t match up or make sense during rewatch.

 

I loved DQ and agree hers was one of the best villain arcs this show has ever done, but the backstory with her was an absolute mess that looks like they just slopped whatever stuck together to hell with the plot...but what else is new. She suddenly controlled her powers in the urn? She hung out in Storybrooke and she and Rumple never ran into each other until now? Was she living in her ice lair this whole time and nobody noticed a damn ice castle was in the woods (that Anna was able to find so easily in Shattered Sight)? Where did she go during the missing year?

 

Just make up your own backstory with this show because these questions are truly never going to be answered!

[HoodlumSheep]

Some of it could probably be hand waved as falling under his "seer" power. But that's a pretty lame excuse. The magic broom is what lead him to the door portal in the mansion, like it did to Mickey, so it is possible he didn't know where the portal was. And he probably made an assumption about who's house it was when he found the sorcerer's hat there.

Didn't long ago someone in the show mention the dark curse took people that had certain ties with the caster? Like whale was brought over because he was being punished by Regina for the whole Daniel thing (in the fairybacks). Maybe snow unconsciously brought over the sorcerer due to her ridiculous guilt about Regina?

I don't know, I got nothing. I'm still wondering whatever became of Snow White's glass coffin back in 1x05. Like, I guess it managed to slip through the original curse, but what became of it afterwards? I 've kinda always wanted them to find it.

[Dani-Ellie]

The glass coffin should still be under the library. Emma found it when Gold and Regina sent her to fight Dragon!Maleficent. (Though, I still think the two of them sending her down there without telling her, "Oh, by the way, Ems, you're going to be fighting a dragon, k? Bye!" was mean, to put it politely.)

[HoodlumSheep]

Wait? Emma found the glass coffin under the library? Why do I not remember this? I thought the coffin was located in the abandoned mine?

[Dani-Ellie]

I don't know if she was directly under the library when she found it but yeah, she saw it when she was in the tunnels in "A Land Without Magic." Unless the second curse didn't put it back, it should still be down there.

[HoodlumSheep]

I guess I need to rewatch the finale then, cause none of that stuff rings a bell. :( well, thanks for answering my question!

[Dani-Ellie]

As is typical with this show, it wasn't a lingering moment or anything, but it was neat. You're welcome! :)

[KingOfHearts]

I was a little confused why Rumple knew so much about Ingrid's adventures in the real world too. He knew how she knew Emma. I'm thinking maybe they talked some time after Gold got his memories back in S1.

[Camera One]

That's one of the things I'm looking forward to when my friend visits and I will watch 4A with her marathon-style.  I'm curious if any of those Rumple/Ingrid scenes in 4A actually make sense in hindsight.  Because as buildmeup said, it kinda doesn't.  It is typical of stuff that's done to make us intrigued, but on rewatch, are really boring, pointless or nonsensical, because the characters dance around things that they should be saying outright.

[KingOfHearts]

 

It is typical of stuff that's done to make us intrigued, but on rewatch, are really boring, pointless or nonsensical, because the characters dance around things that they should be saying outright.

*cough* Zelena's shaving scene *cough*

 

Speaking of which, didn't Zelena say to Rumple that what she wanted was, "Something you've spent a lifetime searching for"? What exactly was she talking about?

 

 

I'm curious if any of those Rumple/Ingrid scenes in 4A actually make sense in hindsight.  Because as buildmeup said, it kinda doesn't.

 

Funny that he asked Ingrid if Emma recognized her. If Rumple knew what Ingrid had been doing, wouldn't he know about the memory rocks? I know he saw her take memories from Elsa. I guess she omitted that little detail at the SB reunion.

Edited December 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

Speaking of which, didn't Zelena say to Rumple that what she wanted was, "Something you've spent a lifetime searching for"? What exactly was she talking about?

A way to change the past and therefore their life. Rumple regretted letting Bae go down the portal and so Rumple (in theory) spent hundreds of years trying to get Bae back, so in a sense, Rumple wanted to change the past. It's why Rumple offered Bae to change him back to a teenager when they came face to face again in NYC. Changing Bae back to a teenager was the closest Rumple could actually get to changing the past.

 

Zelena found a way to literally change the past, which is what Rumple ultimately wanted. At least, that's my explanation. YMMV.

Edited December 20, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Amerilla]

If Belle sent a sand dollar hologram to Rumpel while they still in the EF, why was she perplexed when Ariel gives her a sand dollar from Rumpel in 'Dark Hollow'? I know a lot of time had passed, but how many sand dollars had Belle seen in her life?

Bad, bad Continuity Fairy.

[daxx]

Belle didn't send it. Maleficent did, she had Belle state the message and recorded it on the sand dollar.  Belle doesn't  have magic.

[KingOfHearts]

When Regina gave fake memories of David and Kathryn Nolan, did she create those on the spot, or were they there all along? I know David had "amnesia" and didn't get them until he saw the windmill, but what about Kathryn?

[legaleagle53]

Belle didn't send it. Maleficent did, she had Belle state the message and recorded it on the sand dollar.  Belle doesn't  have magic.

 

Except for the protection spell that Rumpel taught her before he left for Neverland.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Except for the protection spell that Rumpel taught her before he left for Neverland.

The magic was in the dust. Belle did not have magic herself there. It's like drinking a potion - there's magic in the potion, but the person who consumes it doesn't have to have magic themselves.

Edited December 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

When Regina gave fake memories of David and Kathryn Nolan, did she create those on the spot, or were they there all along? I know David had "amnesia" and didn't get them until he saw the windmill, but what about Kathryn?

My personal theory is that it's sort of a combination--she provided the "seed" of memory, but after that, the curse would do the rest.  I think whenever someone started to ask too many questions, the curse would build in memories to keep the curse protected.  Once the first person said "Remember, this . . ." whoever they were talking to would start to "remember" it, too.  (Sort of like I always figured the Dawn spell on BtVS worked.)

Edited December 24, 2014 by Mari

[Camera One]

How did Regina know the Windmill would trigger those memories?  Did Gold cooperate with her to give David false memories?  Didn't he want the Curse to break?  

[KingOfHearts]

How did Regina know the Windmill would trigger those memories? Did Gold cooperate with her to give David false memories? Didn't he want the Curse to break?

At that point I believe Gold just had to roll with it because he didn't want Regina to find out he remembered. His wordplay with David was just him "Rumping" it up for his own entertainment.

About the windmill... I believe Regina was able to assign "talismans" to give people fake memories whey they focused on it. She did the same thing to Belle with the White Rabbit thing, and Rumple also tried to do it with the chipped cup.

Edited December 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

I seem to remember there being a bit of tension as to which set of memories he'd recover. Didn't Gold talk to him about the mobile? If he'd fixated on the mobile instead of the windmill, would he maybe have recovered his Charming memories instead of the David Nolan ones?

[Camera One]

Why did the Snow Queen include the Scroll in the Ice Cream truck?  Why would she want Emma to know she had been tracking her every move?  How was that supposed to help?  

 

Did The Snow Queen change the pictures in the heraldry books in Storybrooke Library to make Emma look like Helga?  

[KingOfHearts]

Why did the Snow Queen include the Scroll in the Ice Cream truck? Why would she want Emma to know she had been tracking her every move? How was that supposed to help?

Did The Snow Queen change the pictures in the heraldry books in Storybrooke Library to make Emma look like Helga?

Ingrid was just off her rocker. Unnecessary information was a prolific problem for her. She did the same thing with putting Emma in front of a moving car and then in the ice cream shop with her later. She thinks exposing the truth will make her automatically believe and accept her.

Nice theory on Helga. She probably did.

[Camera One]

I could believe the putting Emma in front of a moving car thing, since it seemed to her Emma was ready to embrace magic, and she was impatient after so many years.  It seems like Ingrid was supposed to be more clear thinking in the present-day plan.  They kept on having her craftily behind the tree observing every move she planted.  It just seemed weak for the writers to just explain it all away as delusion.  In hindsight after watching the half-season, it never explained how Emma and Elsa were supposed to suddenly embrace her as a sister.  Getting Emma's powers out of control, so she would see fear in Emma's family was a smart move, but after that, there was nothing concrete.  For awhile, it seemed like that was what the yellow ribbons were for, but they turned out to only bound Emma and Elsa's powers.  Why wait to release the Stone Troll memories until the end?  Why not earlier?  Plus Ingrid saw how Emma was so angry at her even with those memories.  I do agree that Ingrid's delusion is the only plausible explanation but I wished there was something more considering how calculated *some* of her moves were, especially the ones involving Rumple.

[ParadoxLost]

I'm pretty sure Emma shoved Hook's heart into his lung.

[Faemonic]

I figured that The Ritual of Great Cleave required heart dust, maybe it's the same principle as the heart of the thing you love most needed for the great curse, or the heart of the emotionally strongest person in the world for the time travel spell. Except for The Rite of Cleavage it's the heart of the thing from the pre-sparkledark days?

 

I'm pretty sure Emma shoved Hook's heart into his lung.

The way Emma cares for Hook is breathtaking, but I doubt now that his heart is in the right place.

 

I figured it was a magic thing. It would probably be difficult and uncomfortable if someone shoved a heart into the original owner's forehead and the heart had to make its way back into the chest, but, I figured that it was a metaphorical magic heart that would match up with the location of the organ, which must still be there, or else Hook wouldn't have anything to push blood around his body.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Faemonic

[daxx]

I figured that it was a metaphorical magic heart that would match up with the location of the organ, which must still be there, or else Hook wouldn't have anything to push blood around his body.

This is how I always thought of it. A magic representation of the things the heart stands for, caring, love and in this world control. I never thought it was the actual physical heart. The show runners May feel different.

[ShadowFacts]

 

Faemonic, on 01 Jan 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

  

  I figured that it was a metaphorical magic heart that would match up with the location of the organ, which must still be there, or else Hook wouldn't have anything to push blood around his body.

This is how I always thought of it. A magic representation of the things the heart stands for, caring, love and in this world control. I never thought it was the actual physical heart. The show runners May feel different.

 

I guess it can't be the physical heart or the person would in fact be dead.  Yet the crushing of it causes death.  It doesn't just hurt being ripped out, it hurts going back in.  Wasn't David laying on the ground dead when his was ripped out for Snow's casting of the curse?  And Snow can go through labor and delivery with only half.  Much nonsense.  I really wish they would perfect these techniques and disperse to the wider world, so many people with the need for heart transplants could benefit.

[Mari]

Except for The Rite of Cleavage it's the heart of the thing from the pre-sparkledark days?

 

The way Emma cares for Hook is breathtaking, but I doubt now that his heart is in the right place..

The Rite of Cleavage sounds like whatever the villainesses go through before they get their breasts jammed under their chin and they order their first Evil Ensemble. It sounds painful. It looks painful.

If Hook's heart is in his lung, can we blame that for any behavior we don't like?

[pezgirl7]

Hook's line to Emma when she's complaining about wearing the corset bothers me. "You're discomfort is a cross I'm willing to bear." I know it's a common saying, but unless Jesus was known in the EF, I can't see Hook picking up that saying in the real world. It also bothers me that even after the first curse was listed, the fairies are still nuns. Did all those years when they were going through the motions of being Christian make them believers? Not that I expect them to address religion at all. Magic seems to be this shows supreme god.

[ParadoxLost]

Hook's line to Emma when she's complaining about wearing the corset bothers me. "You're discomfort is a cross I'm willing to bear." I know it's a common saying, but unless Jesus was known in the EF, I can't see Hook picking up that saying in the real world. It also bothers me that even after the first curse was listed, the fairies are still nuns. Did all those years when they were going through the motions of being Christian make them believers? Not that I expect them to address religion at all. Magic seems to be this shows supreme god.

 

Hook doesn't bug me because they gave him a version of England as his pre-Neverland background.  Robin Hood also has Friar Tuck.  This means that Christianity exists in the EF or at least EF-adjacent.

[pezgirl7]

I guess I just have a hard time with the idea of magic and real-world religion coexisting. Although it could explain some of the stories from the bible, like people who are 300 years old, or water being turned into wine... magic! :P