S22.E04: Week 4

[legaleagle53]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Maybe Arie just wanted to go to bed early. I've heard that the filming schedule is exhausting for the lead, and the cocktail parties must take several hours to film. He is an old man, after all. ;)

It's also mentally and emotionally draining for the lead. One of the things Maksim Chmerkovskiy said he was most grateful for in his season on the Ukrainian Bachelor was the presence of an on-set counselor with whom he met daily in order to help him work through the mental and emotional stress the process constantlyput him under.

[Mabinogia]

17 hours ago, huskerj12 said:

I'm rooting for Bekkah in a sense because I like her and what she's brought to the show so far, but I also don't want her to end up with Arie because I don't think he seems fun or interesting whatsoever haha. 

This is one of those rare shows where you usually end up rooting for your favorite to NOT win because the "prize" usually kind of sucks. 

[adhoc]

As I said earlier, if Bekkah were a couple of years older, I think Arie would have no qualms about taking her to Final 2. Actually, when I see him with her (not that we see much of any of these individual dates, TBH, just a few minutes of each), I can totally see why he's into her. She's young and cute. She's got sassy retorts and she's amusing. When she's with him, she doesn't act like she's particularly in awe of this Attractive, Older, More Worldly Man. There seems to be no sense of real deference. Somehow, I don't think Arie is used to this (though I could be wrong) and is kind of enjoying the experience. 

Also, Arie seems to be not all that deep, and here is this cute chick who's not getting all deep on him but who instead just wants to have a great time and see where it goes. How could he not love that (regardless of what he says about wanting to get married)!

Plus, a 22-year-old is usually pretty baggage-free. As we get older we accumulate more baggage from previous events and relationships. Dating becomes more complex as our reactions start to be influenced by that baggage. How nice it must be for Arie to be with someone who doesn't bring that kind of "clutter" to the relationship. 

Also, a 22-year-old is not likely to care so much about *his* baggage, either. There might be a question or concern or two, but probably not the kind of scrutiny a guy might get from an older woman who is evaluating his worthiness as a potential mate. Again, if I'm an older guy with a questionable relationship history and other issues, I think I would go for the younger woman who isn't nagging me about all my past stuff.

Just some observations that explain why Arie might be bit smitten with her.

Edited January 27, 2018 by adhoc

[Jeanne222]

I think Arie is still hung up on the one that got away.  He's just playing and waiting and hoping Emily comes back to him.  Sorry but she has three little baby boys with her new husband.  That ship has sailed. 

[backformore]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 7:16 PM, Mu Shu said:

Good point.  One way to look at age differences is instead of starting from birth, start from a more significant age, like 18 or 21, and count from there.  That's why a 14-year age difference can be quite significant between a 22-year-old and a 36-year-old, but not that significant between a 40-year-old and a 55-year-old.  Compare how many years of adulthood people have under their belt.

Yes, and I view it as a 36 year old dating someone who is the age of "just finished college yesterday".  

My son, who is in his 20's, told me that the rule of thumb for dating someone younger is "half your age plus 7 years."  When you date younger than that formula, it seems "off."

It works pretty well, in my opinion.  If Arie is 36, then half that is 18, plus 7 is 25 - he shouldn't date anyone younger than 25.   A 50 year old shouldn't date anyone younger than 32, a 60 year old should stick to 37 and older, etc.   It probably doesn't apply to all couples, but it does figure in that the difference in age can be greater if you are older.  

[JudyObscure]

The half plus seven rule is said to have originated in France and was considered an "ideal," for men seeking a bride, not a minimum.  I don't like it because the gap gets more and more ridiculous as the woman ages. (  A 57 year old woman's best prospect would be a 100 year-old man.)   A 60 year-old man and a 36 year-old woman? Ugh.  I just think it reflects the patriarchy at it's worst with men looking for sweet young things to dominate and never for an equal.  That said, I agree that 25 would be a good minimum age for Arie.

[backformore]

58 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

The half plus seven rule is said to have originated in France and was considered an "ideal," for men seeking a bride, not a minimum.  I don't like it because the gap gets more and more ridiculous as the woman ages. (  A 57 year old woman's best prospect would be a 100 year-old man.)   A 60 year-old man and a 36 year-old woman? Ugh.  I just think it reflects the patriarchy at it's worst with men looking for sweet young things to dominate and never for an equal.  That said, I agree that 25 would be a good minimum age for Arie.

The way it's used now is not to determine ideal mates, though. It's more by your example that a 100 year old dating anyone less than 57 would be seen as wrong, same as a 60 year old dating anyone less than 37.  And it's not only applied to older man/younger woman. It applies also to older women dating younger men, and same sex dating.   

If you apply it to young people, it does make sense. If you're 26, don't date under 20. That sound reasonable to me.

[Wings]

I read Sharleen's recaps and she covers the fashion, too.  We know they are responsible for their own clothes but it seems to me that a stylist must be involved in those purchases.  No one dresses in poor taste and all their clothes are currently in stores as they filmed, so everything is new.  No one wears their favorite worn out but fabulous jean jacket for example.  I never travel without mine.  I have a hard time believing they all have the sensibilities to choose cutting edge styles either.  

I would like to know how their wardrobe is put together.  

[stefinny]

Bekah reminds me of Betty Boop (and I am old, but Betty Boop is even before my time!)

[xtwheeler]

14 hours ago, backformore said:

Yes, and I view it as a 36 year old dating someone who is the age of "just finished college yesterday".  

My son, who is in his 20's, told me that the rule of thumb for dating someone younger is "half your age plus 7 years."  When you date younger than that formula, it seems "off."

It works pretty well, in my opinion.  If Arie is 36, then half that is 18, plus 7 is 25 - he shouldn't date anyone younger than 25.   A 50 year old shouldn't date anyone younger than 32, a 60 year old should stick to 37 and older, etc.   It probably doesn't apply to all couples, but it does figure in that the difference in age can be greater if you are older.  

This reminds of Willie Brown's "Rule of 100." (He's the former Speaker of the House in CA and former Mayor of SF. His rule was that he and his date's ages couldn't add up to more than 100, so the older he got, the younger his dates got. Your rule is much better! 

[violet and green]

Rather depressingly, I once read details of some study that said men's ideal age of a woman was 22. Regardless of their age. Gee, I hope it was a bogus study...

I don't think Arie has a problem with dating the younger women, but if he wants to pull off a realistic stunt of choosing a future wife, or if he is actually sincere, I do think he may be troubled by his attraction to Bekkah and how it might look, especially to anyone who knows his reputation with young women, and with Jef with one F busily running him down on social media, etc.

[kingshearte]

19 hours ago, xtwheeler said:

This reminds of Willie Brown's "Rule of 100." (He's the former Speaker of the House in CA and former Mayor of SF. His rule was that he and his date's ages couldn't add up to more than 100, so the older he got, the younger his dates got. Your rule is much better! 

Ew.

The half + 7 thing really does work out reasonably well if you treat it as a minimum, not as an ideal. I'd never heard that it originated as an ideal, but regardless, I'm always amazed at how reasonable a bottom limit it produces, regardless of your age. 14-year olds should date other 14-year-olds (which barely counts as dating, but we all remember teen hormones, right?). 18-year-olds should stick within two years. 30-year-olds should date people they can at least go out for a drink with. 40-year-olds should date people who are older than their kids, if they have any. The gap does get pretty wide as you get older, but even there, there's going to be less side-eye for a 90-year-old with someone in their early 50s than there is if you even go down a little to someone in their 40s.

All that to say: Arie and Bekah? Totally not in the same place, or even a particularly compatible one, unless they're both specifically looking for a sugar daddy/baby sort of arrangement.

[Mabinogia]

I think they are both just looking to have a good time, get some camera time and maybe hook up in the fantasy suite. I think Arie will keep her around because he knows she's not looking for marriage, so he can take her to final two or three without breaking her heart. He enjoys her company, thinks she's pretty, and there's no commitment. It sounds like the perfect hook up.

[JudyObscure]

The half plus seven thing just depresses me because I see it from a woman's point of view. My newly divorced neighbor, who is about 57, would figure a man wouldn't really  want to date her unless he was actually100 years old, or that if she met a 57 year-old man she liked, she might be competing with women who were  35.

 I much prefer the guides that change depending on time of life.  For instance I don't think a 20 year-old should be dating a seventeen year -old.  He's almost done with college and she's still in high school. But a sixty year old woman and a 50 year-old man might be very compatible, particularly if they're both established in their careers and both have their child raising years behind them.  Yet they would never come close to making the rule of half plus seven.  

[backformore]

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

But a sixty year old woman and a 50 year-old man might be very compatible, particularly if they're both established in their careers and both have their child raising years behind them.  Yet they would never come close to making the rule of half plus seven.  

I don't get what you mean. 

A 60 year old woman, by the formula, shouldn't date anyone UNDER 37. So a 50 year old  man would be appropriate. A 50 year old man shouldn't date UNDER 32.  It's not that 32 is the best age, just that anyone younger seems wrong.

Your argument presupposes that a man wants to date the youngest woman possible, which is not really the case. The 57 year old woman in your example has plenty of age options other than a 100 year old man. 

Really, the formula is just a way of quantifying at what ages does a relationship seem "icky" or pervy.

[Stan39]

On January 27, 2018 at 12:14 PM, adhoc said:

 

Also, Arie seems to be not all that deep, and here is this cute chick who's not getting all deep on him but who instead just wants to have a great time and see where it goes. How could he not love that (regardless of what he says about wanting to get married)!

I still don't know why more people go this route. Forget about whether somebody is deep or not, nobody builds attraction to somebody having these serious, tortuous conversations at the beginning of their relationship. I watch season after season of women who can't wait to tell the bachelor their "story" which inevitably ends up being some tragic story about being abandoned, someone dying, or someone being hurt. In the real world, who would be attracted to that on what amounts to a first date? These people should be talking about which Netflix shows they binge-watch, where their last vacation was, books they've read, concerts they've been to. They should be light and breezy, trying to make each other laugh, not cry. I know they do this stuff for TV, but Arie is still a human being reacting to these women. Which first date sounds like more fun? Two people joking with each other about the bad reality shows they watch or asking each other if they're ready for marriage, what type of spouse are they are looking for, and any tragic events that occurred in their lifetime?

 

Caveat, I realize Sean ended up with Catherine after hearing her sad story, but I think he's the exception rather than the rule. 

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, backformore said:

I don't get what you mean. 

A 60 year old woman, by the formula, shouldn't date anyone UNDER 37. So a 50 year old  man would be appropriate. A 50 year old man shouldn't date UNDER 32.  It's not that 32 is the best age, just that anyone younger seems wrong.

Your argument presupposes that a man wants to date the youngest woman possible, which is not really the case. The 57 year old woman in your example has plenty of age options other than a 100 year old man. 

Really, the formula is just a way of quantifying at what ages does a relationship seem "icky" or pervy.

Here's the top definition from Urban Dictionary:  "Half, plus seven" is the age-old dating rule for dudes. It justifies the dating of younger women, within reason. The formula begins with each dude's age (for example, 22). That age is halved (22/2 =11), and 7 is tacked on to the divided result. Therefore, a 22 year old male may legitimately date an 18 year old female, a 25 male may date a female of 19.5, and a 30 male may date a female of 22. While there is no technical ceiling on this social anthropological formula, there is a point at which common sense takes over, and it just becomes disgusting. For instance, this formula should not be used to justify a 60 year old man dating a 37 year old female.

You may find other definitions but until just recently it was only men who used the scale.  Women weren't doing much of the choosing.   Thus the 57 year-old woman I was using as an example would not be looking at this scale as a way to figure out how young a guy she could ask out,  but  rather to make a guess about who might find her desirable. The scale says the only man likely to find her attractive would be 100 years old.  And yes it was meant to find the most attractive age for the man, not the least age acceptable.  Times may have changed the meaning somewhat but it's not that far from the statistic that says most men think 22 is the most attractive age for women.   

[backformore]

OK, I've explained the (Half your age plus 7) a bunch of times already.  There can be numerous ways to state it that make it sexist, but - my son had told it to me as the way he and his friends think about when someone (male or female, and some of his group are gay)  is too young to date. Basically, they would call out a friend for dating someone who was too young by this formula.  And this is a group of pretty progressive, feminist thinkers.  

Urban dictionary aside,  I think you're adding an interpretation which is not at all how it is being  used at all.   It's not about "the most desirable age" it's about the youngest age that would  be considered acceptable. 

[Madding crowd]

On 1/28/2018 at 11:21 AM, Wings said:

I read Sharleen's recaps and she covers the fashion, too.  We know they are responsible for their own clothes but it seems to me that a stylist must be involved in those purchases.  No one dresses in poor taste and all their clothes are currently in stores as they filmed, so everything is new.  No one wears their favorite worn out but fabulous jean jacket for example.  I never travel without mine.  I have a hard time believing they all have the sensibilities to choose cutting edge styles either.  

I would like to know how their wardrobe is put together.  

Not to mention when you see their suitcases they could not possibly hold ten to fifteen full length gowns, short date dresses, winter coats, boots and hats and bikini’s, casual clothes whatever. Also, when you see shots of their bedrooms there is never a fancy gown in sight. People always argue with me on this but I am convinced there are wardrobe options provided along with whatever the women bring.

[Wings]

11 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

Not to mention when you see their suitcases they could not possibly hold ten to fifteen full length gowns, short date dresses, winter coats, boots and hats and bikini’s, casual clothes whatever. Also, when you see shots of their bedrooms there is never a fancy gown in sight. People always argue with me on this but I am convinced there are wardrobe options provided along with whatever the women bring.

I agree, there has to be.  Their tiny suitcases are for show.  They probably carry personal items. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by Wings

[LuvMyShows]

Many years ago I heard about the "1/2 age plus seven" thing, and never heard it as determining a 'desirable' age for what men should be looking for, but heard it as basically determining a 'floor' age of dating acceptability (for lack of a better word) for both men and women.

[call me ishmael]

2 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

Not to mention when you see their suitcases they could not possibly hold ten to fifteen full length gowns, short date dresses, winter coats, boots and hats and bikini’s, casual clothes whatever. Also, when you see shots of their bedrooms there is never a fancy gown in sight. People always argue with me on this but I am convinced there are wardrobe options provided along with whatever the women bring.

Of course as Chad proved they may use their suitcases for protein powder.

[JudyObscure]

I think the rule of age definition has probably changed over time so that someone older ( like me) may have first heard it described as an ideal, while it's sometimes described as a minimum today.  This article about it is interesting and reminded me that I first heard it described in the movie, "The Moon is Blue." https://newrepublic.com/article/119282/science-does-not-support-rule-seven-relationships  It also sadly reinforces the idea that even old men prefer their fantasy women in their twenties.

[legaleagle53]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I think the rule of age definition has probably changed over time so that someone older ( like me) may have first heard it described as an ideal, while it's sometimes described as a minimum today.  This article about it is interesting and reminded me that I first heard it described in the movie, "The Moon is Blue." https://newrepublic.com/article/119282/science-does-not-support-rule-seven-relationships  It also sadly reinforces the idea that even old men prefer their fantasy women in their twenties.

That's supposedly because of the ancient biological urge to perpetuate the species.  Remember that a man can theoretically father a child for as long as he lives, but a woman only has from puberty up through menopause, which is a much shorter time frame of some 30-40 years -- and it used to be that pregnancy was a no-no for women over 35 because it was believed to carry too many health risks for her and the baby.  So a man is simply always going to instinctively seek out a woman who can bear his children.  It's hard to override biology that has existed for thousands of years (although it really doesn't explain why gay men also tend to gravitate towards men under 30!).

[PreBabylonia]

57 minutes ago, legaleagle53 said:

That's supposedly because of the ancient biological urge to perpetuate the species.  Remember that a man can theoretically father a child for as long as he lives, but a woman only has from puberty up through menopause, which is a much shorter time frame of some 30-40 years -- and it used to be that pregnancy was a no-no for women over 35 because it was believed to carry too many health risks for her and the baby.  So a man is simply always going to instinctively seek out a woman who can bear his children.  It's hard to override biology that has existed for thousands of years (although it really doesn't explain why gay men also tend to gravitate towards men under 30!).

When I was in university and took my mandatory science course. I chose genetics. Did my presentation on Hemophilia, particularly as it emerged in royalty (Prince Nicholas of Russia). I discovered that it was the result of mutant sperm - much more likely to happen when the father is 60s and beyond. So men don't actually have menopause but....they shouldn't father children unless they want to risk unfortunate birth defects and tragic conditions. Not something that ever gets discussed.....and I do agree completely, the urge to procreate is deep within us, even when it shouldn't be.