S04.E02: Weighty Issues

[CousinAmy]

I'm so disgusted by Jazz's immense privilege - as a child of affluent parents, she wants for nothing. (I assume that TLC is paying for the flights back and forth to Dr. Bowers, and I wouldn't be surprised if she gets her own show.) She will be getting the surgery that others have to save for, for years! And yet she can't stop complaining about every single thing. 

From the previews it looks like involving her brothers in her weight loss will be a storyline. When she does lose enough weight to be a candidate for surgery, I have a feeling that the weight will return soon after, if she doesn't get at the root of her depression. 

I have a deep-seated, lifelong depression and a binge-eating disorder. I wonder if there is a deeper pain than her gender dysphoria? Or will she finally be happy when she finally has her female "equipment" installed?

[J. Matazz]

On 1/9/2018 at 11:10 PM, Emmeline said:

Seeing Jazz, and her mother, climb under the covers fully clothed once back in the hotel room spoke volumes.  She not only overeats, she is far too sedentary.  She does seem depressed and needs regular therapy for a variety of reasons.  Seeing her response to the doctors suggestions made me see her immaturity.  Can you imagine caring for her post surgery.  It would be a nightmare.

Much as the weight is an issue (currently halfway there, scheduled for June!), as are some of these behaviors, being sedentary isn't a terrible thing for the first 4-6 weeks of recovery, which mostly consists of dilation with a stent, prepping with loads of pads for the blood loss, and honestly, rest. Should play well into her hands.

 

On 1/10/2018 at 1:56 AM, bichonblitz said:

She didn't like what Dr. Bowers had to say so what is she going to do, search for another Dr. again? Wouldn't surprise me. 

 

Nah, still going to Dr. Bowers and Dr. Ting to supervise it. I'll explain how/why this is happening a bit more down in-post, given it warrants a longer/better explanation.

 

On 1/10/2018 at 2:56 AM, ilovetrashtv said:

Yup. No puberty = still a child.

 

On a side note - Skyler (Jazz's friend from last week) seems pretty suppressed too and yet also had the surgery. Wonder if it was as complicated for her as it sounds like it will be for Jazz.

Jazz has had estrogen implants since March 2014. That counts as puberty, right?

 

Not everyone suppressed has had Jazz's, shall we say...material...challenges. Can't speak to Skyler, and not to say you suggested as much, but it's far from this being an absolute issue from all suppressed youth/teens.

 

On 1/10/2018 at 8:53 AM, woodscommaelle said:

Was Dr. Bowers saying she wouldn't do the surgery bc of Jazz's weight?  Or it was too complicated?  Was she referring her to a diff doctor in NY?  I didn't understand that storyline.  And was it necessary for them to FLY to California for her to say she wouldn't be doing the surgery...or whatever she told them?  This couldn't be a phone conversation? 

Can someone please clarify what happened at the doctor's office?  Not sure why I'm not following...

Dr. Bowers seemed to have less a concern than Mills-Peninsula, the gorgeous hospital where the surgery is performed. What I found interesting is that Bowers' site mentions nothing about BMI, but rather a hard weight limit, of 215 pounds, which is a concern because of possible complications increase as well as prolonged recovery. Dr. Jess Ting was suggested, as expected if only because Dr. Ting's background is in peritoneal surgeries of this nature, or of what I believe to be the Davydov procedure or a similar variant. Given this background, both doctors will be present at the surgery itself.

 

Have to agree on the California fly out. Always watch this weekly with my mother, and we couldn't understand this at all. Both of us would have been quite perturbed if given this kind of runaround for that kind of information disclosure on my surgery with Dr. Bowers.

 

On the note of Dr. Bowers and surgery: First and foremost, maturity isn't much something looked for when these therapists write letters. They're making sure you understand what you're getting into and permanence to relieve the body dysphoria. Jazz's maturity in this respect is actually rather unlikely to be a point of focus. When I got my two, it was from old therapists, including one I hadn't seen in six years before that appointment. Just a general checkup with life and what it would mean to me. I was/am someone who dealt with some rather omnipresent concerns outside of my body (depression), but this was not a hurdle.  Secondly, in the information packets Dr. Bowers gives, if you are 'full time' for five or more years, you only need one letter, rather than two for surgery. Maybe because Jazz is under 18 she, therefore, needs two? Go figure. Last but not least, yeah, that really was grating to me that Dr. Bowers was being called Marci. Really rubbed me the wrong way for someone who worked as hard as she has to get where she is with such a solid reputation as a surgeon, to the point where her wait times from booking to surgery typically exceed three years. That's a bit unbecoming for a 17-year-old in the general sense, let alone one with the material (or is that lack thereof?) impact Dr. Bowers has on our lives.

 

As for the expanders, she wouldn't be the first to have them in that respect, but honestly, given the choice between that and the testosterone cream, give me the expanders. That area growing or doing anything it should before surgery just made me feel (and others, anecdotally speaking) blacked out, disconnected from myself, my world, my body, and hideous. It's a terrible feeling that doesn't really stop before said surgery, and frankly, while not to justify behavior and actions, made me rather especially lazy to escape society because of JUST how much my outside didn't match my inside. Terrible pain, almost like a very specific point of depression with physical roots, although can easily expand beyond that in what it limits you (lack of relationships, for example).

11 hours ago, Nowhere said:

Yes. I've never known anyone to transition who wasn't in their twenties or thirties, frontal lobe fully developed. 

 

Now you do, hehe. ;)

11 hours ago, Lynn said:

Also, can someone explain how Dr. Bowers has a feminine voice but Noelle does not? And how did the young friend who had just had bottom surgery (with a difficult recovery) have enough tissue with being blocked?  She didn't appear to be post puberty?

1

Voice therapy, which lasts for a few months for up to a year with a vocal coach, with various exercises. Here's an article that talks about me discussing my experience with voice therapy last summer, basically piloting a successful program. The tissue item I discussed in response to a previous poster, but to reiterate to save you some time, certainly not an absolute that if pre/blocked puberty, a lack of tissue is not always an issue.

 

As for this episode, I genuinely really liked it. Yeah, the trip was really rather unnecessary, the weight issues were kind of implied on a few levels. But I genuinely loved, in a community sense of the word, the hurricane house scene. It was great to see just genuinely helping out, lending a shoulder to a family who desperately needed help and was ravaged by Irma. It was a welcome change of pace to see given the typical atmosphere these episodes take place in. That, and while hard to say if it will last and if unfortunately in a restaurant, good to see Jazz getting out there socializing a bit more with people outside of her comfort zone, which isn't common.

On 1/10/2018 at 6:27 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

Did you hear Jazz say that she didn't attend any of the workshops at the LGBT conference?  So, she only signed autographs?  What's the point? Wouldn't the workshops be inspiring, educational, and fun?  

 

To present her session, basically, which was about the show this year. Should be said, this is a rather radical departure from the 'love fest' in years past discussing various journies of transitioning youth with someone who transitioned to male at a young age as well culminating in a beautiful giant music video. This also is quite different than the Expectations, not Limitations session Jazz and I presented together (with Jeanette and my mother moderating) a few years back, talking about our futures, how, despite our bodies, we would use this as best we could to empower others and make bigger/better goals widescale for those under the age of majority worldwide.

 

In fairness to not attending other sessions, as a frequent goer of this conference, I only go at this point to present as well because I don't get much out of the conference at this point honestly, for what seems like the same reasons Jazz would/wouldn't, in that it is mostly for people who are newly transitioned. You get more giving back than you receive. Not a bad thing, and it's fine enough, but a reasonable conclusion to hold back from attendance. Not to mention, sadly the conference has moved away from really having a good number of workshops on youth and teens intended sessions, beyond hormones, which are meetings intended for parents. Wouldn't be Jazz's place to attend those, given they're typically restricted to parents.

 

On the other hand, there's usually a session/workshop about sharing your female body post-op, not sure if it was done last year (couldn't attend), but was done at least the last 5+ years before that. Not sure if it was 18+, but that seems like it might have been a really good workshop to go to for any number of reasons, be it for expectations or just asking questions to best prepare on a number of levels.

Edited January 12, 2018 by J. Matazz

[Granny58]

Jazz, for the love of God, please chew with your mouth closed.

I am not discounting Noelle's personal story, but I am not convinced that transitioning is the reason for her improved mood.  I went through hell at 14 too and in a year or two had moved past that phase.  To me, it seems just like normal teen transition.  I do like Noelle.  

[Granny58]

On 1/10/2018 at 2:45 PM, ClareWalks said:

The immaturity is particularly glaring the closer she gets to surgery. I was astonished at the pizza parlor when Jazz announced that she'd just farted. No teenage girl would ever admit to, let alone bring attention to, her own farts. Especially in mixed company. Especially among people she didn't know well. ESPECIALLY WHILE EVERYONE IS TRYING TO EAT. It was just so weird to me. And Jazz talks about how awkward she feels around people, it's like "honey, stop making it worse."

but, but, but...she has a "girl brain."  

On 1/10/2018 at 3:16 PM, janedi said:

This is my last attempt to get my opinion into this thread. then I will not be posting on this site any longer. I will say what i have to say and leave.

It seems to me like jazz is purposely doing things to avoid getting the surgery, while at the same time claiming she wants it so bad.

For example, she says no to every option they give her to help since she doesn't have enough material.

She refuses therapy even though its required.

She says she can't lose the the weight even though its required

Whether this is all conscience or unconscience is something to think about.

With that I bid you all farewell.

Well, it's Friday and I am just reading your comment.  I think it is very insightful and glad you brought it up.  Wish you wouldn't leave.

[Granny58]

Jazz gained 30+ pounds in a few months.  I know how else that happens....Zoloft.  Given her depression, this would not surprise me. 

[SunnyBeBe]

Quote

 

In fairness to not attending other sessions, as a frequent goer of this conference, I only go at this point to present as well because I don't get much out of the conference at this point honestly, for what seems like the same reasons Jazz would/wouldn't, in that it is mostly for people who are newly transitioned. You get more giving back than you receive. Not a bad thing, and it's fine enough, but a reasonable conclusion to hold back from attendance. Not to mention, sadly the conference has moved away from really having a good number of workshops on youth and teens intended sessions, beyond hormones, which are meetings intended for parents. Wouldn't be Jazz's place to attend those, given they're typically restricted to parents.

 

On the other hand, there's usually a session/workshop about sharing your female body post-op, not sure if it was done last year (couldn't attend), but was done at least the last 5+ years before that. Not sure if it was 18+, but that seems like it might have been a really good workshop to go to for any number of reasons, be it for expectations or just asking questions to best prepare on a number of levels.

 

By J.Matazz from above.

J.Matazz, I appreciate your input and inside info, but, I still think it's odd that a workshop doesn't offer much to some of those who are presenters.  I'm trying to wrap my brain around that.  I would think that that kind of thing, with new ideas, various people's experiences, new information, would be appreciated by all.  Some people don't like to sit and listen to other people talk.  I get that.  

And I still hope that more emphasis is placed on making sure a person is really mature enough for surgery.  Your description above seems inadequate, imo.  But, I'm no expert.  It might work out fine for others, but, I think the risk of harm is too great to be lax about it. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Kid]

13 hours ago, gingerella said:

From what she says, she wants this cartoonish fairy tale body, and she doesnt get that even female anatomy isn't always pretty and can be, lets say, messy

I remember her multiple comments about wanting a beautiful vagina. I got news for her, there is nothing beautiful about a vagina.  A face maybe, but not a vagina. I agree with you, her body appears to disgust her.   I have had body image issues and that is sad but this is even sadder to feel that uncomfortable in your own skin. I’ve also noticed that she always has her body covered by a blanket or a pillow. Even in the doctors’ offices.  I have thought the same thing about the masturbation issue.  She is on estrogen, she should have a sex drive even though the testosterone is suppressed.

 In my opinion, she really does need counseling to come to terms with some issues and any psychologist that would give her the required letters without that would really be irresponsible.  And I also believe that the root cause of her issues, it’s not being transgender. I believe it’s the fact that she was thrown into the public eye at such a young age.  Look at what happens to child actors who become famous! And their fame does not come from something so personal as gender issues. 

[SunnyBeBe]

You make some interesting points Kid.  You may be right about the being famous thing.  Plus, the way she is seemingly so coddled by her family. It is similar to famous kids who got really spoiled growing up.  

I recall before Jazz was so well endowed and she was very self conscious about that too.  Now, that it's the opposite, she seems the same way.  But, if it bothers her too much, there are things you can do.  You can find a comfortable and form fitting sports bra and wear it underneath a modest shirt.  That will really streamline that area.  I know this from personal experience. lol  IF it bothers you, why wear low cut tops?

Edited January 12, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[aliya]

On 1/10/2018 at 0:44 PM, bichonblitz said:

Wasn't this discussed last season when Jeanette brought Jazz to her  therapist cousin's office for a session and Jazz was a complete obnoxious brat and then told Jeanette that she refused to continue any therapy sessions with anyone?  Yea, we'll see where that gets her. 

I have never seen more than the commercials for this show until just now. I watched the segment with Dr. Bowers. Can someone tell me how Jazz got suppression treatment without therapy? I thought you had to have therapy before you could have anything done, including your basic hormone therapy. I have known trans adults since the 70's and there always seemed to be a lot involved. Has medical opinion changed since they are dealing more with children and teens these days? 

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, aliya said:

I have never seen more than the commercials for this show until just now. I watched the segment with Dr. Bowers. Can someone tell me how Jazz got suppression treatment without therapy? I thought you had to have therapy before you could have anything done, including your basic hormone therapy. I have known trans adults since the 70's and there always seemed to be a lot involved. Has medical opinion changed since they are dealing more with children and teens these days? 

She's gone to therapy on and off for years, but it seems like since this show began, she was stopping talk therapy and I think it was last season, suddenly we learn that Jazz's cousin Debbie just so happens to be a licensed psychologist who just so happens to specialize in trans issues, I think. Anyway, aside from the ethical aspects of counseling a family member, let alone on TV, let alone as high profile and complex a case as Jazz, Cousin Debbie was a lightweight in the counseling department and Jazz just sat there petulantly, pouting, and blew the session off, vowing never to come back again because...she doesn't like talking about this stuff...nevermind she's talking about it ad nauseum on TV. Her family really needs to pull the plug on this show, but they never will because Jazz will have a shit fit. She's still underage and they should do the best thing for her, and let her go through this not for all the world to see. No amount of money is worth this IMO. I also think Jazz and Jeanette are somewhat addicted to the D-List fame they now have, and they wont give up the show for that reason alone. Funny though, when she was younger people always admired her, and we've seen plenty of young people tell her how much her story made a difference in them coming out to their parents, but when she was sitting with that group of peers and awkwardly talking about farting and hey, guess how many pieces of pizza my fast ass just ate, they all looked more mature than her by leaps and bounds. It was like they'd surpassed her now because even though her story might have helped them navigate their own family issues, they'd done so out of the glare of media, and were more like just normal weirdo teens and young adults. it wasnt alllllll about being trans or gay.

[janedi]

Glad to see my comment was reviewed positively. I guess I will stay.

10 hours ago, J. Matazz said:

 

Jazz has had estrogen implants since March 2014. That counts as puberty, right?

 

No this does not count as puberty. Puberty is an internal process that starts in the brain. Puberty blockers not only stop the body from changing but it stops the brain development as well. Jazz still has a prepubescent brain, which may explain her immaturity.  Perhaps her brain is a bit more feminized because of the estrogen, but that just means she has a feminized prepubescent brain, not an adult brain.

Giving a prepubescent child estrogen does not turn them into an adult woman. The hormones simply cause the body to react in a certain way. Just like how some babies are born with breasts and can even lactate and some newborn baby girls can even have "periods" because of the hormones they are exposed to in their mothers womb. No one would ever consider these changes in newborns to be puberty.

4 hours ago, Kid said:

Even in the doctors’ offices.  I have thought the same thing about the masturbation issue.  She is on estrogen, she should have a sex drive even though the testosterone is suppressed.

Estrogen will not give Jazz a sex drive anymore than it would give a newborn baby washed in it's mothers hormones a sex drive. Because again, the sex drive comes from the brain and her brain has been prevented from developing. Even masturbation will be a problem for Jazz because the penis develops more nerve endings during puberty. This is one of the reasons why boys become obsessed with it during puberty. It becomes more pleasurable to touch. Jazz will never feel the same level of sensation as an adult male because she has had no development. And on top of that estrogen dulls the sensation in the penis. It's also worth mentioning that whatever Jazz feels now, is the most she will ever feel after the surgery,

The testosterone cream might help, but even then. That still won't give her a sex drive. It will just give her more sensation down there.

[woodscommaelle]

54 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Her family really needs to pull the plug on this show, but they never will because Jazz will have a shit fit.

I feel like she'd be happy if the show was done. 

When the conversation isn't about her, she looks bored out of her effing mind. Case in point: at the pool.  They were all talking about whatever and it wasn't Jazz-centric.  She looked like she wanted to be anywhere but there...probably in bed with a nice crock pot of buffalo chicken dip or whatever that was.

[MegD]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I recall before Jazz was so well endowed and she was very self conscious about that too.  Now, that it's the opposite, she seems the same way.  But, if it bothers her too much, there are things you can do.  You can find a comfortable and form fitting sports bra and wear it underneath a modest shirt.  That will really streamline that area.  I know this from personal experience. lol  IF it bothers you, why wear low cut tops?

I think the reason we see her in low cut tops has a lot to do with her dynamic with Jeanette. I get the impression that as they accepted Jazz as trans, Jeanette went overboard with her efforts to make sure that everyone knew that Jazz was a girl. I think that any aspect of Jazz's life that could be emphasized as feminine, including how Jazz dressed, Jeanette made sure Jazz knew that she needed to be extra girly. As she got older, this meant low cut tops to show off cleavage she's clearly uncomfortable with. There is nothing unfeminine about a modest top. Hell, yesterday, I wore a round or scoop necked pink sweater with no cleavage showing to court. Although it was modest, it was clearly a feminine top and flattering for my larger chest. I think a lot of Jazz's "beautiful vagina" commentary is of the same vein. She's been pushed so hard by her mother, consciously or not, to emphasize her "girl brain" that she doesn't know how to be comfortable in her own skin. Granted some of that is tied to being trans, but some of it is what I see as an overemphasis on girly things in Jazz's life. I think it's stunted Jazz's development a little as well. I think Jeanette doesn't want to face the idea of Jazz being a teenage girl, dating, experiencing sexual attraction, makeup, hair styles, etc., and so those cues which she would have picked up from her friends and her sister, were semi-replaced with Jeanette, rainbows, and focusing on suppression and how she's different than other kids. I think a lot of that has resulted in her spoiled brat behavior because they have traveled all over the country looking for doctors to give Jazz whatever she wants as far as suppression and bottom surgery has gone.

 

In some ways, Jeanette reminds me of some mothers I ran into growing up. They only allowed their daughters to be friends with girls that were uglier and less well off than they were. Girls that were prettier or had more money were quietly torn down. This was never overt but was enough to ensure that the daughters knew that those girls were not good enough for them. It created a situation were the girls who were the prettiest or richest were the most vulnerable and most picked on. The moms justified this because they were "promoting their daughter's self-esteem." In some ways, I see that out of Jeanette. I like Noelle a lot, but she definitely comes from a less well off background than Jazz as do many of the trans friends that Jazz seems to be around and several are not as naturally pretty as Jazz. I think Jeanette is doing something similar. She seems to function as the gatekeeper for access to Jazz and kids that don't "measure up" aren't going to get near Jazz. Meanwhile, it's giving Jazz license to be alpha female of her group, to behave however she wants because none of the girls in her group are going to challenge her queen bee status, even when she's wrong, rude, or gross. We've seen moments where the other kids are clearly uncomfortable with her behavior but no one speaks up. I think Noelle is really getting close though. She was clearly annoyed at the pool. Here she was revealing something very personal, that she hadn't worn shorts since she had transitioned and had started to lose a bunch of weight, and Jazz made it about Jazz instead of taking a second to say "And you look awesome Noelle. You should wear shorts more. Your legs look great."

Even the Keys cleanup was about Jazz as both Greg and Jeanette had their "Rainbow Runners" t-shirts on from the Rugged Maniac thing last season. No offense to any of them, but coming from a regular target for hurricanes (the Gulf Coast), they were absolutely not dressed to help and I seriously wonder how long they were there. Anyone who's done the fun that is cleanup knows that first and foremost, Jazz's thin rubber soled shoes wouldn't protect her for a hot second from the nails and glass. None of them have long sleeves or pants on either. Again, it sucks and it's hot, but there is contaminated stuff everywhere and it's dangerous. Finally, Jazz needs her hair up. not only for the heat but so that it's not getting caught on the random things (like screens) sticking out of the debris piles that have already begun to pile up. Getting caught is a quick way to losing a chunk of hair or getting yanked against something. I've had both happen. I'm glad they went down, but the way Jazz and Jeanette wee carrying on when they got home was a bit laughable coming from my neck of the woods. Their neighborhood took a lot of palm tree damage, it looked like. Palm trees do not do well in storms. The fact that they left up the hammock means that Greg wasn't fully prepared or wasn't super worried. For a serious storm, everything that isn't bolted down or planted in the ground gets moved inside, lest it become a projectile. We've spent more than one weekend with a kitchen full of plants and a garage packed with the grill and both cars. Downed trees are nothing compared to stripped roofs, shattered windows and collapsed walls that could have accompanied the downed trees. Everything in their back yard could have been largely put to rights in a few days. It wasn't the crisis she told her brothers.

[janedi]

I would also like to ask, can we honestly say Jazz is/was free to make her own decisions in regards to this transition? Was/is she really free to change her mind??

Lets just imagine if Jazz had seconds thoughts. How can she go back now? Just imagine the consequences.  All the adults around her have scoffed at the idea that she may ever change her mind from the very beginning. Her being Transgender has been accepted as an undeniable fact from the time she was 3 years old. They have fought legal battles, they have allowed her to undergo risky medical procedures. That's how much they believe it.  If Jazz were to desist, it would crush her parents entire worldview. And not just theirs, but Jazz's too.  Because Jazz has always believed her being transgender is an undeniable fact as well. That she was "born that way" So if she started having doubts, can you imagine the inner turmoil it would cause? It would be the equivalent of finding out the earth is really flat.

Ans I haven't even mentioned the broader consequences.  Her parents set her up as a spokesperson for the trans movement at an early age. They put an enormous weight on her shoulders. She was told from the age of 6 that she was "saving lives" and "helping other kids" Her parents allowed her to read letters from other kids who told her that SHE stopped them from killing themselves. I don't know about you all, but If I believed I was stopping people from committing suicide it would be very hard for me walk away. Especially if I was a kid. Just imagine the guilt. 

 

Once again I'm NOT saying Jazz is having second thoughts. I'm just saying if she ever did it would be very difficult for her to turn back. And I can easily see how being in that situation would cause some of the psychological issues she is having now.

Edited January 13, 2018 by janedi
fixed

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't profess to know how things really are with the cast of this show, but, I just have a different take on the family dynamics than most do.  I just don't get the impression that Jeannette forced Jazz to do anything.  It seemed to me that she was very over indulgent and permissive, due to fear that Jazz would be unhappy and harm herself.  But, I just don't get that she pushed Jazz into being transgender.  The public speaking was a parental choice and maybe, that should have been dialed back, but, if Jazz was enthused about it and it seemed to give her purpose, then I see where the parents might have thought that being a public speaker was beneficial.  And that it might help Jazz be more social and more confident.  I do suspect that the family may not view Jazz the same way the viewers do.  

[janedi]

32 minutes ago, MegD said:

I think the reason we see her in low cut tops has a lot to do with her dynamic with Jeanette. I get the impression that as they accepted Jazz as trans, Jeanette went overboard with her efforts to make sure that everyone knew that Jazz was a girl. I think that any aspect of Jazz's life that could be emphasized as feminine, including how Jazz dressed, Jeanette made sure Jazz knew that she needed to be extra girly. As she got older, this meant low cut tops to show off cleavage she's clearly uncomfortable with.

I have noticed this as well. If you watch closely you will notice that Jeanette picks out Jazz's clothes or tries to influence what she wears a lot.   Case in point, the sweet 16 party episode. When the family was leaving Jeanette tells Jazz she should wear heels and Jazz says that she doesn't wear heals in an annoyed voice. Also on Jeannette's youtube account. She has an old documentary the family did when Jazz was 8 year old. And even back then she was trying to get Jazz to wear a dresses while Jazz didn't seem very enthusiastic about it.

[Caracoa1]

Jazz talks of wanting a "Beautiful Vagina".....being as she was born male...and still has a male anatomy.....has she ever seen an actual vagina?  Babies don't count!  Another question....when Jazz has her surgery ..do they remove her prostate?

[MegD]

56 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It seemed to me that she was very over indulgent and permissive, due to fear that Jazz would be unhappy and harm herself. 

I think this has played directly into some of Jazz's issues though. She's a smart cookie and figured that out quickly. I think she uses it to get what she wants, either consciously or subconsciously, and occasionally, they need to remind her that they are the parents and she is the child. She'd do well to have some boundaries and chores. She seems to have neither of these.

[SunnyBeBe]

I have some issues with some things I had to contend with  growing up, but, one positive is that I did learn to be independent and take care of myself.  No one had to tell or ask me to do chores. I knew and did them well.  I learned that things didn't always have to be my way, show respect for elders (even if you disagree with them) and to clean up after myself. It served me well over the years, too. lol 

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, MegD said:

I think this has played directly into some of Jazz's issues though. She's a smart cookie and figured that out quickly. I think she uses it to get what she wants, either consciously or subconsciously, and occasionally, they need to remind her that they are the parents and she is the child. She'd do well to have some boundaries and chores. She seems to have neither of these.

I see this too. IMO Jazz is a very intelligent and articulate young woman, but still a bit emotionally immature- which is fine, being an advocate for trans kids does not mean she isn’t allowed to have human faults. BUT I see so much of Jeanette’s behavior and the family’s reaction to Jazz as parallel to my life as a Sib and experiences other Sibs have talked about in my group. Jazz being the “special” one tends to get her way, due to parental guilt, laziness and a variety of other reasons (it also doesn’t help that she’s the baby child). Seeing the similarities tells me that humans are more alike that we are different, and that families face the same emotional issues despite the different circumstances they face. 

[gingerella]

I wonder if anyone here with experience can tell us...if Jazz decided to use creams and whatever in an attempt to grow her gentialia to a size that would be more workable for bottom surgery, would she be able to have her penis grow to a sort of normal size - keeping in mind there is no normal size per se but you get my drift...? I was wondering about that. Just how much would the cream, etc. increase her size down there? I wonder if she did start feeling more sexual then perhaps she'd realize how important the prep instructions are for her type of surgery. I wonder what Skylar did because she seems very feminine so I'm wondering if she supressed as much as Jazz has...Someone said Jazz is very feminine, but I dont agree. She was when she was much younger but I think she becomes more masculine as she is aging.

[princelina]

11 hours ago, gingerella said:

Cousin Debbie was a lightweight in the counseling department and Jazz just sat there petulantly, pouting, and blew the session off, vowing never to come back again because...she doesn't like talking about this stuff...nevermind she's talking about it ad nauseum on TV. Her family really needs to pull the plug on this show, but they never will because Jazz will have a shit fit. 

 

10 hours ago, woodscommaelle said:

I feel like she'd be happy if the show was done. 

When the conversation isn't about her, she looks bored out of her effing mind. Case in point: at the pool.  They were all talking about whatever and it wasn't Jazz-centric.  She looked like she wanted to be anywhere but there...probably in bed with a nice crock pot of buffalo chicken dip or whatever that was.

What I see is that she enjoys lecturing others and delivering monologues - whether in TH's or at family dinners - but she doesn't want to talk about it in therapy where uncomfortable questions get asked and she is not in control of the conversation.  

As for ending the show - I think Jeanette would have the shit fit :)

[CousinAmy]

Even with the best insurance this process is going though cost a lot of $$$. With the network paying for transportation and probably hotels, meals, etc. it takes a huge load off Mom and Dad. I can't see them ending the show voluntarily.

[janedi]

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

I wonder if anyone here with experience can tell us...if Jazz decided to use creams and whatever in an attempt to grow her gentialia to a size that would be more workable for bottom surgery, would she be able to have her penis grow to a sort of normal size - keeping in mind there is no normal size per se but you get my drift...? I was wondering about that. Just how much would the cream, etc. increase her size down there? I wonder if she did start feeling more sexual then perhaps she'd realize how important the prep instructions are for her type of surgery. I wonder what Skylar did because she seems very feminine so I'm wondering if she supressed as much as Jazz has...Someone said Jazz is very feminine, but I dont agree. She was when she was much younger but I think she becomes more masculine as she is aging.

Skylar was probably put on blockers at a later age. You have to remember that when boys start puberty they have about 1-2 years where they only get genital growth and development. And then then all the other changes happen. Skylar was probably blocked after her genitals grew some but before her voice changed and facial hair appeared. Jazz was put on blockers as soon as the doctor noticed the slightest bit of growth.

And too be quite honest if you look at some of the old documentaries about Jazz, (and I mean the candid footage of the family, not the staged interview portions) she wasn't that feminine when she was younger either. There was really no difference between her and her brothers behavior.

[Impatient]

This whole family needs therapy.  There is SUCH a dynamic of dysfunction.  Greg's parents not in the picture at all.  Jeanette being so controlling, and such a drama queen.  The almost complete disappearance of Ari from the show.   And all of her kids pulling farther and farther away.  That said, I think Jazz is tremendously influenced by her dad and her brothers.  Talking with her mouth full, guessing how many slices of pizza she had, laugh-farting being openly broadcast to whher friends.....  Those are all things her frat boy brothers would do and laugh at.  Just like her coming out of anesthesia comment, about having a boner.  Her brothers thought that was hysterical, her mother was slightly annoyed, but Greg was the only one to whom it seemed to make the appropriate impact, namely, what are we doing here?  Jazz is constantly trying to make her nuclear family persona compatible with her socializing, out in the world persona. And with no other frame of reference, i think she is confused.

It would be great for that family to get therapy, but most of all for Jeanette to get therapy.  I just think examining themselves in a brutally honest, and forthright way is what would make them all happier and more emotionally sound....

[Caracoa1]

From what I understand, once jazz has her testes removed she no longer has to be on blockers....but....will she have to be on estrogen for the rest of her life?  I can't imagine the long term effects of an artificial hormone therapy.

[brilliantbreakfast]

This episode was heartbreaking in so many ways.

It's all well and good to snark about Jazz, that she's bratty and self-involved and now fat.  But think about what it must be like living in her head.  As if it's not hard enough to be transgender (and as she says, "Who would choose this???"), and be for all intents and purposes a trailblazer in terms of starting transition before puberty by having it suppressed, she's also a quirky introvert who is always out their being the public face of transgender youth.  Think about being a cisgender girl and how hard the teen years are under the BEST of circumstances.  Now imagine being Jazz.

She's binge eating.  She's not bingeing and purging (yet), she's bingeing.  As someone who has been known to turn to food for comfort, the kind of eating she's doing is not a cry for help, it's a SCREAM for help.  This poor child doesn't even know what she needs help with or what she wants to do.  I know I am part of the problem by watching this show, but Jeannette the stage mama bear needs to shut off the cameras, stop putting this kid out there to defend herself against transphobic ADULTS.  I don't know if what we saw here is in chronological order, but when you hear that your child ate a bucket of fried chicken and a giant jar of nutella IN ONE SITTING, why on earth would you put her out there to deal with such people?  I don't care what she says she wants to do, BE A FREAKIN' PARENT!!

Jazz is depressed.  She feels like a misfit on so many levels (not just the trans issue).  Other kids seem to like her, especially as she meets more trans kids, but who knows?  Maybe they assemble these groups for the cameras.  She's living in a fishbowl.  Her life is in no way "normal" and the fishbowl makes it worse.

The only two people in this family who have any sense at all are Ari, who clearly wants nothing to do with this circus anymore, and Greg, who is the voice of sanity.  Jeannette may be a "mama bear" but she has spoiled this child, I'm betting that in her heart of hearts she feels guilty in some irrational way as if she "caused" this (which she didn't, let me make that clear),  But guilt is not rational.  

ALL of these trans kids are essentially guinea pigs.  I look at poor, brave Noelle, who still looks and sounds male, and my heart breaks.  The sight of Jazz, surrounded by all her family's wealth and cohesiveness and love -- and STILL is sitting in her room alone with a drawer full of fast food wrappers and a crockpot of something called "buffalo chicken dip" (which sounds disgusting to me) in her lap, well, if that isn't a big neon sign saying "HELP ME!!!!", I don't know what is.  And no one really knows WHAT to do.  The therapists are new at this.  The surgeons are new at this.  Parents want answers and it seems everyone is just feeling their way as they go along.  AND IT IS NO ONE'S FAULT.

These people, from the kids to the parents to the doctors to the therapists, are all doing the best they can.  But I think that Jazz' parents would be well-served to pull the plug on the media at this point and get this kid some help.  Maybe Jazz "wants" to be the public face of transgendered kids because it makes her feel better about herself.  But it's clear that's just a band-aid.  It's not helping, and it's time for these parents to stop using it as such.  Come back when Jazz gets past this terrible time in her life.  And good luck to them all.

Edited January 14, 2018 by brilliantbreakfast

[stacyasp]

This may be a weird question but as a transgender girl on hormones how did jazz get such big boobs, I don’t think I’ve ever seen any transgender woman that well endowed without surgery.  Did she have implants when she was thinner and this is weight gain?.. 

[TwirlyGirly]

In terms of Jazz's behavior, perhaps a distinction should be made between issues relating to her gender identity, and her personal identity.

I say this because I think some of her behaviors are seen as being "too girly" (perhaps appearing to be "forced") such as her constantly referencing boys, dating, vaginas, boobs, etc., versus been seen as being too masculine - such as her eating habits/manners, burping, farting, etc. Poor girl can't win! <grin>

While I admit it's been quite a long time since I was a teenager, I do have a good memory of the people that were a part of my social circle (friends and acquaintances) at the time, and I recall their behaviors/interests were definitely in a state of flux during those years. Teen years are a time when many young people "try out" different personalities - as part of figuring out who they are and where they fit in. This is a completely separate issue from gender identity. I remember girls who had bad table manners, who burped and farted and thought it was hilarious. I remember girls who it seemed thought about nothing other than boys, clothes, and makeup. There were also girls who were the "life of the party", and those who were quiet and studious. One thing all of them had in common was during their high school years it often seemed the pendulum would swing from one extreme to the other while they were figuring out who they really were. None of my friends were dealing with gender dysphoria, which I'm sure adds an extra layer of complexity to the whole issue of "Who am I?"

I'm not convinced much of the behavior we're shown is related to the fact Jazz is transgender as opposed to being just part of being a teenager growing up in a world that is becoming more complicated every day. So, it may be unfair to look at these behaviors and use them to determine whether Jazz is really transgender or mature enough for surgery at this time.

There may be a lucky few who can honestly say "Well, I wasn't like that as a teenager!" or "My child wasn't like that as a teenager!" because they (or their child[ren]) sailed right through their teenage years knowing exactly who they were and where they were going in life. But in my experience, that's the exception - not the rule."

[gingerella]

7 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I'm not convinced much of the behavior we're shown is related to the fact Jazz is transgender as opposed to being just part of being a teenager growing up in a world that is becoming more complicated every day. So, it may be unfair to look at these behaviors and use them to determine whether Jazz is really transgender or mature enough for surgery at this time.

I'm certainly not going to hypothesize whether or not Jazz is transgender - she says she is and has said so since she was able to speak so I dont think that's being disputed, nor should it. We wouldn't tell someone, 'Oh, I dont know if you really *know* if you're gay or not', so why would we do so with someone who's transgender?

As for your comments regarding gender identity and personal identity (personality), I believe one influences the other to a certain extent, but I also believe that this pendulum you describe isn't always there either. I certainly never had "extreme swings" in one direction or the other. I was fairly the same growing up, as were all my friends. Bookworms didn't swing from that to party girls all of a sudden, nor the other way around. Nor did cheerleaders suddenly become shy demure home bodies rather than being overt cheerleaders. In fact I really never saw this swing at all, to be honest. I dont think it's that common. The people who did change noticeably, and never really stick with one thing, seemed to be trying on personas that didn't really fit naturally with them. For example, a very few girls and guys decided to go punk, and I think it always came across as though it was more about wearing a costume that helped them belong to another group that they really wanted to fit into, rather than they were suddenly into spiky hair and safety pins...but those kids were few and far between in my experience. I just think Jazz's natural personality is way more masculine than she even realizes, and it's odd because she is hyper aware of her body, and yet seems very socially unaware of how she presents herself to others. She truly behaves like the 3rd little brother, not the little sister, and it's much more apparent now that she's older. I wonder what she'd think if she read that, or someone told her "hey, do you realize that you come across as a 12 year old boy", what she'd think and how she'd react or process that because it seems counter to everything that she talks about.

 

On 1/13/2018 at 2:40 AM, janedi said:

Skylar was probably put on blockers at a later age. You have to remember that when boys start puberty they have about 1-2 years where they only get genital growth and development. And then then all the other changes happen. Skylar was probably blocked after her genitals grew some but before her voice changed and facial hair appeared. Jazz was put on blockers as soon as the doctor noticed the slightest bit of growth.

janedi, may I ask from what perspective do you say this? Do you have personal experience in hormone blocking?

[Muffyn]

My best friend through junior high and high school loved pink things, teddy bears and lace.  She read Cosmo, experimented with makeup and was significantly more "girly" than I have ever been.  She also burped and farted loudly and would laugh about it.  While we have expectations for how boys and girls act, especially in public, that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people who don't act within those expectations.   Jazz burps and farts and finds it funny.  Ok, that's her.  I don't see any of that as a reason to question her gender identity.

As far as genitals go, there is such a normal variation among people who have not been suppressed or had other hormonal treatments that I would expect there to also be a huge variation among people who have been suppressed.  Full disclosure, I have seen a lot of genitals in my day.  I used to help distribute condoms and safer sex information at sex clubs.  I have been actively involved in alt-sex communities.  And I helped edit a book on vulvas that included more than 100 close up photos.  This was used as an educational aid for medical personnel to understand the  expected variations and to help promote better comfort with genitalia among med students and other medical personnel.   

So we know from the show that Jazz has small genitals.  Part of that is due to suppression.  It may also mean she started out with small genitals.  She has expressed clearly that her concern with using testosterone cream is a fear of increasing her dysmorphia based on increased penis size.  So I think it's more than just being a brat; she thinks it could worsen psychological issues.  I feel for her in that it is difficult to know if it is an issue she could safely cope with or would it increase her depression to an untenable point.  She has difficult decisions to make on the surgery. 

Finally, I didn't see her worrying about having larger breasts beyond the typical issues of finding clothing that is flattering.  She did make a comment when looking for bathing suits about the fat under her arms.  That wasn't a my boobs are too big comment; that was a I'm putting on more weight than I want comment. 

[ClareWalks]

I made a comment upthread about Jazz's bringing attention to her farts in public, but I don't think it has anything to do with her gender expression, it's more of a maturity issue IMO (which is related to how she is approaching this surgery - she doesn't seem to have any sense of delayed gratification or of compromise, which isn't a good sign).

[Impatient]

This season finished filming several months ago, correct?  

Jazz has not yet transitioned, correct?  I hope that is true, anyway, as I do believe these episodes are demonstrating that Greg is correct and that jazz needs more maturation time.

[ClareWalks]

2 minutes ago, Impatient said:

This season finished filming several months ago, correct?  

Jazz has not yet transitioned, correct?  I hope that is true, anyway, as I do believe these episodes are demonstrating that Greg is correct and that jazz needs more maturation time.

I think Jazz wants the surgery after this school year is over, so she hasn't had it yet (her dad wants her to wait an extra year, so summer 2019). Her medical transition technically began with the hormone blockers but this would be a huge part of it. I am curious to see next season who "won," Greg or Jeanette.

[janedi]

On 1/14/2018 at 2:16 PM, gingerella said:

 

janedi, may I ask from what perspective do you say this? Do you have personal experience in hormone blocking?

No I do not have personal experience from hormone blocking. However everything I'm saying is simply common knowledge about puberty and what I have learned watching the various documentaries about jazz over the years. It's a fact that majority of the time male puberty begins with the growth and development of the genitals. It's called Tanner stage 2 and It ends when the big growth spurt starts. Then  Tanner stage 3 begins and that's when the the voice changes and other masculine features appear. Jazz was put on blockers at the very beginning of tanner stage 2, I know this because they showed the doctors appointment where they made this decision one of their tv specials. You can find it on youtube. It's called "I am Jazz- a family in transition"

Skylar on the other hand must have been put put on blockers at the end of Tanner stage 2. That is the only logical explanation for why she was able to get the surgery, but hardly has any masculine features.

 

On 1/14/2018 at 2:32 PM, Muffyn said:

So we know from the show that Jazz has small genitals.  Part of that is due to suppression.  It may also mean she started out with small genitals.  She has expressed clearly that her concern with using testosterone cream is a fear of increasing her dysmorphia based on increased penis size.  So I think it's more than just being a brat; she thinks it could worsen psychological issues.  I feel for her in that it is difficult to know if it is an issue she could safely cope with or would it increase her depression to an untenable point.  She has difficult decisions to make on the surgery. 

Finally, I didn't see her worrying about having larger breasts beyond the typical issues of finding clothing that is flattering.  She did make a comment when looking for bathing suits about the fat under her arms.  That wasn't a my boobs are too big comment; that was a I'm putting on more weight than I want comment. 

It's just interesting that Jazz says she has dysphoria now even before the testosterone cream, but she didn't seem to have much dysphoria in the earlier seasons. I distinctively remember her telling the doctor in the first episode, that she wasn't sure she wanted the bottom surgery and she had gotten used to her body the way it was.

She's allowed to change her mind of course, but I really wish she would stop claiming that she's "always" wanted this surgery, when that's simply not true.

Why can't she just say  "I wasn't sure I wanted it before, but now I know I do". That would be more honest.

I just hope Jazz understands that she doesn't have to get the surgery (most don't) and isn't under pressure to get it done.

Edited January 15, 2018 by janedi

[ClareWalks]

I don't know a ton about the subject, but aren't there different types of "bottom surgery" that don't require penile inversion? Like, if Jazz wanted to, considering she has such a small penis it might be easier to convert that into a sort of clitoris, and remove the testicles so they don't affect her hormones. Intercourse could be done anally (sorry, no delicate way to phrase that) if she were interested in that sort of thing. 

[msrachelj]

On 1/12/2018 at 3:09 PM, MegD said:

I think the reason we see her in low cut tops has a lot to do with her dynamic with Jeanette. I get the impression that as they accepted Jazz as trans, Jeanette went overboard with her efforts to make sure that everyone knew that Jazz was a girl. I think that any aspect of Jazz's life that could be emphasized as feminine, including how Jazz dressed, Jeanette made sure Jazz knew that she needed to be extra girly. As she got older, this meant low cut tops to show off cleavage she's clearly uncomfortable with. There is nothing unfeminine about a modest top. Hell, yesterday, I wore a round or scoop necked pink sweater with no cleavage showing to court. Although it was modest, it was clearly a feminine top and flattering for my larger chest. I think a lot of Jazz's "beautiful vagina" commentary is of the same vein. She's been pushed so hard by her mother, consciously or not, to emphasize her "girl brain" that she doesn't know how to be comfortable in her own skin. Granted some of that is tied to being trans, but some of it is what I see as an overemphasis on girly things in Jazz's life. I think it's stunted Jazz's development a little as well. I think Jeanette doesn't want to face the idea of Jazz being a teenage girl, dating, experiencing sexual attraction, makeup, hair styles, etc., and so those cues which she would have picked up from her friends and her sister, were semi-replaced with Jeanette, rainbows, and focusing on suppression and how she's different than other kids. I think a lot of that has resulted in her spoiled brat behavior because they have traveled all over the country looking for doctors to give Jazz whatever she wants as far as suppression and bottom surgery has gone.

 

In some ways, Jeanette reminds me of some mothers I ran into growing up. They only allowed their daughters to be friends with girls that were uglier and less well off than they were. Girls that were prettier or had more money were quietly torn down. This was never overt but was enough to ensure that the daughters knew that those girls were not good enough for them. It created a situation were the girls who were the prettiest or richest were the most vulnerable and most picked on. The moms justified this because they were "promoting their daughter's self-esteem." In some ways, I see that out of Jeanette. I like Noelle a lot, but she definitely comes from a less well off background than Jazz as do many of the trans friends that Jazz seems to be around and several are not as naturally pretty as Jazz. I think Jeanette is doing something similar. She seems to function as the gatekeeper for access to Jazz and kids that don't "measure up" aren't going to get near Jazz. Meanwhile, it's giving Jazz license to be alpha female of her group, to behave however she wants because none of the girls in her group are going to challenge her queen bee status, even when she's wrong, rude, or gross. We've seen moments where the other kids are clearly uncomfortable with her behavior but no one speaks up. I think Noelle is really getting close though. She was clearly annoyed at the pool. Here she was revealing something very personal, that she hadn't worn shorts since she had transitioned and had started to lose a bunch of weight, and Jazz made it about Jazz instead of taking a second to say "And you look awesome Noelle. You should wear shorts more. Your legs look great."

Even the Keys cleanup was about Jazz as both Greg and Jeanette had their "Rainbow Runners" t-shirts on from the Rugged Maniac thing last season. No offense to any of them, but coming from a regular target for hurricanes (the Gulf Coast), they were absolutely not dressed to help and I seriously wonder how long they were there. Anyone who's done the fun that is cleanup knows that first and foremost, Jazz's thin rubber soled shoes wouldn't protect her for a hot second from the nails and glass. None of them have long sleeves or pants on either. Again, it sucks and it's hot, but there is contaminated stuff everywhere and it's dangerous. Finally, Jazz needs her hair up. not only for the heat but so that it's not getting caught on the random things (like screens) sticking out of the debris piles that have already begun to pile up. Getting caught is a quick way to losing a chunk of hair or getting yanked against something. I've had both happen. I'm glad they went down, but the way Jazz and Jeanette wee carrying on when they got home was a bit laughable coming from my neck of the woods. Their neighborhood took a lot of palm tree damage, it looked like. Palm trees do not do well in storms. The fact that they left up the hammock means that Greg wasn't fully prepared or wasn't super worried. For a serious storm, everything that isn't bolted down or planted in the ground gets moved inside, lest it become a projectile. We've spent more than one weekend with a kitchen full of plants and a garage packed with the grill and both cars. Downed trees are nothing compared to stripped roofs, shattered windows and collapsed walls that could have accompanied the downed trees. Everything in their back yard could have been largely put to rights in a few days. It wasn't the crisis she told her brothers.

that bugged the shit out of me too. nothing happened to their home except damage /down to some trees. i've had MUCH worse damage happen to my home and yard due to severe wind storms and i'm not in a florida hurricane zone. they were barely affected and not to mention, have the money to get someone in there to do cleanup asap and have it looking pristine again. unlike myself and many others who still have tree stumps and assorted reminder of damage years later. they don't know how lucky they are, do they.

[Scarlett45]

14 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

I don't know a ton about the subject, but aren't there different types of "bottom surgery" that don't require penile inversion? Like, if Jazz wanted to, considering she has such a small penis it might be easier to convert that into a sort of clitoris, and remove the testicles so they don't affect her hormones. Intercourse could be done anally (sorry, no delicate way to phrase that) if she were interested in that sort of thing. 

Yes there are many variations to “bottom surgery”. From vaginaploasty to orchiectomy (testical removal).....the decision on which surgery to have are far more complex than the show makes it appear to be. 

[MegD]

14 hours ago, janedi said:

It's just interesting that Jazz says she has dysphoria now even before the testosterone cream, but she didn't seem to have much dysphoria in the earlier seasons. I distinctively remember her telling the doctor in the first episode, that she wasn't sure she wanted the bottom surgery and had gotten used to her body the way it was.

She's allowed to change her mind of course, but I really wish she would stop claiming that she's "always" wanted this surgery, when that's simply not true.

Why can't she just say  "I wasn't sure I wanted it before, but now I know I do". That would be more honest.

I just hope Jazz understands that she doesn't have to get the surgery (most don't) and isn't under pressure to get it done.

That's what worries me about this show. I worry that the show and/or Jeanette is driving the "lets do bottom surgery right now" slant the show seems to have taken for ratings instead of this being something that Jazz wants and is ready for. In a lot of ways, we are seeing her subtly resist the process. We see the refusal to even consider the idea that it may take more than one surgery to get the result she wants, that waiting might be a good idea, that perhaps expanders or testosterone cream may give them more material to work with, etc.. She's not interested in sex, including masturbation, which has been recommended for her by the doctor. Now she's putting on weight, a significant amount, which she seems to take no responsibility for ("My eating habits are out of my control"), and is shocked that she might be told no. In the preview for the next episode, she is seen telling the twins that it's their job to get her lose weight.

With her so disconnected from the process and putting up roadblocks to moving the process forward, I have to wonder if she is trying to stop the surgery in the only way she can. If that is true and she's being pushed by Jeanette and/or the show, they may be encouraging the dysphoria to make the story "better" for viewers. I don't think this would be something Jazz would do on her own, but I do fear that, given TLC's manipulation of other "reality" shows, Jazz is an unwilling pawn. Moving her towards something she's not ready for (or potentially doesn't even want) isn't healthy. Of course, this could be that she has gotten older and has developed more complex feelings about her body, leading to the dysphoria, but her "all or nothing" attitude towards everything just serves as fodder for people looking for reasons to find flaws with her message.  Unfortunately, as she seems to have taken the idea that she is the voice for young, transgender individuals whose hormones were blocked extremely early, naysayers are looking for those flaws so she needs to tread carefully.

I agree that she needs to be the one that makes the final decision without any pressure one way or the other. She is no lesser a woman for not having the bottom surgery than she is for having it. That goes for right now, 2 years from now, 10 years from now, or 60 years from now. She needs to do what makes her comfortable in her own skin without any consideration of what she's "expected" to do.

[Impatient]

I was thinking about Jazz's being so spoiled.  Think about it though, her parents have got to be soooo careful.  The usual growth experiences are really not possible for Jazz.  They couldn't send her to away camp for example. No senior class trips.  Even slumber parties would be hugely risky.  There is just always the possibility that some sadistic bully could beat up on her if the truth became known ----- that is to people who don't watch the show.  So she is virtually the caged pet in her family and not really of the world.  So of course she's spoiled.  Not sure how that could have been handled any other way.

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, Impatient said:

I was thinking about Jazz's being so spoiled.  Think about it though, her parents have got to be soooo careful.  The usual growth experiences are really not possible for Jazz.  They couldn't send her to away camp for example. No senior class trips.  Even slumber parties would be hugely risky.  There is just always the possibility that some sadistic bully could beat up on her if the truth became known ----- that is to people who don't watch the show.  So she is virtually the caged pet in her family and not really of the world.  So of course she's spoiled.  Not sure how that could have been handled any other way.

Also “spoiled” is relative. I would’ve never been allowed the back talk or attitude Jazz has sometimes (my mom would slapped the black off of me), but as far as Jazz’s lifestyle, it reminds me very much of my own teenage years. Of course since I lived it I don’t think it’s that odd. Fortunate but not odd.

I was often called “spoiled”, yet I had to care for my sister and grandfather as well as my school/extracurricular activities THEN fun time with friends. The people calling me spoiled had no family responsibilities what so ever (yeah I still roll my eyes at that). 

[Kid]

On 1/11/2018 at 7:08 PM, gingerella said:

: I have noticed more and more, as Jazz ages, she gets more male traits in terms of her behavior with the farting, burping, eating like a slob, dressing like a sloppy dude, etc. Basically, she acts way more like her brothers than her sister.

Actually, her brothers have better manners.

[MegD]

15 hours ago, Impatient said:

I was thinking about Jazz's being so spoiled.  Think about it though, her parents have got to be soooo careful.  The usual growth experiences are really not possible for Jazz.  They couldn't send her to away camp for example. No senior class trips.  Even slumber parties would be hugely risky.  There is just always the possibility that some sadistic bully could beat up on her if the truth became known ----- that is to people who don't watch the show.  So she is virtually the caged pet in her family and not really of the world.  So of course she's spoiled.  Not sure how that could have been handled any other way

I'd agree with you if they hadn't been so open about this for so long. 60 Minutes covered her story in 2009. According to Jazz and her parents in interviews, when she was 8, she was banned from a travel girls soccer team. They spent 2 years fighting the issue, which included a lawsuit. She was 6 when she was first interviewed by Barbara Walters. The truth wasn't ever really hidden. They made the choices to take her story very public. While I could agree with you had appearing on television and being open about being transgender (as I suspect it is for some of her friends like Noelle) been a new experience, but with their openness and candor from when she was so young, they should have been able to (and from some of what she has said) and were able to give her those normal experiences. Perhaps not sleep away camp, but not every kid does camp. Clearly, she did travel soccer. If I recall correctly, she's at a very prestigious private school. Given that, I would suspect that the class size is relatively small and close-knit. She should be able to get reasonably comfortable enough to attend slumber parties or have other girls over. I just think Jeanette isn't interested in letting her be too independent. And Jazz has learned how to get what she wants from her mom.

[Impatient]

Well MegD no argument from me on this topic:  "And Jazz has learned how to get what she wants from her mom."  It is true. 

But I do think that the decisions Jeanette and Greg make are always at least partially motivated by fear.  I agree that they have opened themselves to  lot of danger and I DO wonder what they could have been thinking.   But I also kind of think they thought this would be a way to build up a trust fund jazz could live off of for the rest of her life.  No other way to explain the books, the TV show the dolls......   and people DO have short memories.  Look at how no one pays any attention to Caitlyn Jenner anymore.  

Every time Jazz goes out and shops (all the while claiming she hates shopping, which was NOT true before she gained weight), or buying fast food or having her hair painted blue-green or getting her nails done, or getting a pedicure, or going to malls or movies or mixers.......  i think "Where does the money for all this come from????"  My parents let me use the family car, but I had to replace the gas.  I had a part-time job in high school and I had three part-time jobs in college.  How is this girl ever going to develop any self-discipline?

[Nohardfeelings]

Jazz mentioned in her book that she’d go to a summer camp for transgender kids so she did get to have those experiences too. 

[kikikink]

On 1/13/2018 at 6:29 PM, stacyasp said:

This may be a weird question but as a transgender girl on hormones how did jazz get such big boobs, I don’t think I’ve ever seen any transgender woman that well endowed without surgery.  Did she have implants when she was thinner and this is weight gain?.. 

I'd also like to know the answer to this, is it a combination of weight gain and hormones?

[janedi]

3 hours ago, Impatient said:

Every time Jazz goes out and shops (all the while claiming she hates shopping, which was NOT true before she gained weight), or buying fast food or having her hair painted blue-green or getting her nails done, or getting a pedicure, or going to malls or movies or mixers.......  i think "Where does the money for all this come from????"  My parents let me use the family car, but I had to replace the gas.  I had a part-time job in high school and I had three part-time jobs in college.  How is this girl ever going to develop any self-discipline?

Actually Jazz has been claiming she hates shopping since season 1. Again go watch the very first episode.

[Dobian]

This show has become your typical TLC show where families profit off of dysfunction to fund their lifestyles, be it Sister Wives, Little People Big World, Kate Plus Eight, or this show.  The money distorts everything.  I know on Sister Wives they make $50K an episode so that's like a million a year.  Don't know what the "Jennings" make but I'm sure it's at least half that.

[gingerella]

On 1/17/2018 at 10:44 AM, Dobian said:

This show has become your typical TLC show where families profit off of dysfunction to fund their lifestyles, be it Sister Wives, Little People Big World, Kate Plus Eight, or this show.  The money distorts everything.  I know on Sister Wives they make $50K an episode so that's like a million a year.  Don't know what the "Jennings" make but I'm sure it's at least half that.

Dobian, well said. Are we to blame, at least partially, because we all continue to watch this slow motion train wreck? I feel somewhat guilty that I continue to watch this show because it's such a mess, but I wouldn't miss it if it stopped airing. The first season or so, I felt like this show did a huge service to mainstream Viewers, educating them about transgender issues. I was fairly familiar with gay issues but as much on transgender issues so this seems was a great education on what it's like to be transgender. Sadly, like most shows on TLC, it has devolved into a drama that is redundant and sad,  profiting on th dysfunction of a family that seems to need a lot of professional counseling off camera. And what's more, most of that drama is likely manufactured by producers to keep this gravy train  rolling. I'd like more of daily life stuff, not what has become over the last few seasons, The Jazz & Her Genitalia Show.  It's so boring. I'd like to know what it's like to be transgender day to day, enough with the bottom surgery, we all know it's not going to happen any time soon due to the obviously glaring fact that no two reputable psychologists would ever give Jazz a letter right now anyway, and she probably won't do anything long term to drop the weight either so all this surgery talk is moot. It's like th producers think we're all really, really stupid and not following along. 

[Otter]

@gingerella good thoughts adding to @Dobian's post.  I can't watch the show anymmore because so much has turned me off so I come here for updates.  It *was* a great opportunity to have a teaching moment and all involved IMO blew it.  Here's why and again my opinion only:

Jazz wanted to be a girl as a toddler and her mother accomodated her love of pink and sparkly things.  Great!  I was the opposite of girly until a teen and still never overboard with makeup and such.  Is that a litmus test?  Surely there must have been been other signs, especially with a child so young.  Why do we not hear of more?  And to be real honest, those interviews with a super-young Jazz sound way too rehearsed  There's coaching and there's coaching if you know what I mean.

As pointed out upthread, hormone blockers for children is a new medical frontier.  Why did Greg and Jeanette agree to turn their daughter into what is a medical experiment?  I understand the fear of mom about self-hurt, and maybe I missed something, but was Jazz in therapy (not with cousin Debbie) to search out other avenues besides this radical procedures?

But reason number one for be so turned off -- I have questions, lots of people have questions just based on her story.   But questioners not totally affirming are labeled "haters".  Always, and it's gotten old.  I'm not a hater ... I have some basic questions and shutting me down makes me wonder what isn't being disclosed.  

Finally, I want the best outcome for Jazz and want her to have a happy and satisfying life no matter what twists and turns that life takes.  Thanks for the updates.  :)