S04.E02: Weighty Issues

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Jazz and Jeanette return home to the devastation left by Irma, and in an effort to help, Jazz and her parents drive to the Keys to help in the cleanup. Later, the family travels to San Francisco to meet with Dr. Bowers, who has some shocking news for Jazz.

[woodscommaelle]

This Key West story is heart breaking. I grew up in Miami but never experienced a hurricane that bad. Hurricane Andrew destroyed my parent's house but I was away at school. 

"You gonna shred with that?"

Lol. Greg is my favorite tv dad. 

Their home looked amazing afterwards. I hope other families in the area got help too. 

And Noelle is funny. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by woodscommaelle

[Emmeline]

Seeing Jazz, and her mother, climb under the covers fully clothed once back in the hotel room spoke volumes.  She not only overeats, she is far too sedentary.  She does seem depressed and needs regular therapy for a variety of reasons.  Seeing her response to the doctors suggestions made me see her immaturity.  Can you imagine caring for her post surgery.  It would be a nightmare.

[JocelynCavanaugh]

Apparently Jazz didn't feel the need to work on her disgusting table manners since last season. I don't know how those other kids could stand to look at her while she was flapping that pizza around in her gaping maw. It actually looks like more work than just eating normally. Bizarre. 

It was cool to see the family try to help others after the hurricane. Greg's TH about how it will never be enough but they have to try was nice. I think Greg is a decent person who is easily steamrolled by Jeanette and Jazz. That poor woman who lost her home was a mess. I don't blame her at all, but it was hard to watch her going around weeping the whole time. 

[shouldbedancing]

Jazz doesn't look /that/ big... I mean her boobs are huge, though. I feel like her parents aren't taking this seriously enough. It's not just a case of willpower, she has some sort of psychological binge eating disorder. Greg is right that it's not a guarantee that she'll get a therapist letter just like that. They need to listen to him more.

I'm glad Noelle is feeling better. She does seem more comfortable. I root for her the most.

Edited January 10, 2018 by shouldbedancing

[Nowhere]

Jazz is very immature. When she said she was a junior in high school, I was shocked. I thought she was in 8th or 9th. My daughter is a junior so I'm around that age all the time and none of them act as young as Jazz. 

[bichonblitz]

I don't know how Greg puts up with Jazz and Jeannette. He is the only one with any common sense and they pay no attention to what he says or how he feels. Jazz needs to tackle one issue at a time. Concentrate on losing the weight first. She's now realizing this surgery is going to be a long and painful process and frankly I don't know if she has what it takes to power through all she needs to do to get to where she wants to be. She didn't like what Dr. Bowers had to say so what is she going to do, search for another Dr. again? Wouldn't surprise me. 

[janedi]

Deep down Jazz doesn't want the surgery. Jazz wants out of this whole mess.

That is why she has turned down every single option they have given her for the surgery

That is why she is binge eating,

She is not going to lose the weight.

She is using the weight gain as a protective shield so she can't get the surgery.

Cause if she can't get it, she won't have to admit that  she doesn't want it.

And she won't have to admit why she doesn't want it.

Poor kid. Jeanette ruined her life. She's trapped.

 

ETA: Did anyone else notice that jazz sorta admitted she doesn't like having boobs in tonight episode? It was very subtle and easy to miss, but it was there. Makes you wonder what is really giving her dysphoria.

Edited January 10, 2018 by janedi

[Bridget]

1 hour ago, JocelynCavanaugh said:

Apparently Jazz didn't feel the need to work on her disgusting table manners since last season. I don't know how those other kids could stand to look at her while she was flapping that pizza around in her gaping maw. It actually looks like more work than just eating normally. Bizarre. 

It was cool to see the family try to help others after the hurricane. Greg's TH about how it will never be enough but they have to try was nice. I think Greg is a decent person who is easily steamrolled by Jeanette and Jazz. That poor woman who lost her home was a mess. I don't blame her at all, but it was hard to watch her going around weeping the whole time. 

During last week's episode, while celebrating Jacky's birthday, I had to ffwd through her scenes at the restaurant. A cow chews their cud much more gracefully than Jazz does.

I also caught Jeanette talking about how she was happy that their stuff was undamaged/safe (after getting home from Philly). All I could think about was how shallow that comment sounded. Her house and items were safe. Not the animals or her neighbors. Her stuff was safe.

We know Jeanette is a pack rat (maybe that's her "binge eating"?), but Jazz is not the only one who takes things for granted.

I literally rolled my eyes for next week's previews and am questioning if I can continue to watch this show. TELLING her 20 year old brothers that they NEED to help her lose weight. Can she do anything (besides using a crockpot) by herself? 

Team Greg for the win!

[ilovetrashtv]

59 minutes ago, Nowhere said:

Jazz is very immature. When she said she was a junior in high school, I was shocked. I thought she was in 8th or 9th. My daughter is a junior so I'm around that age all the time and none of them act as young as Jazz. 

Yup. No puberty = still a child.

 

On a side note - Skyler (Jazz's friend from last week) seems pretty suppressed too and yet also had the surgery. Wonder if it was as complicated for her as it sounds like it will be for Jazz.

[Caracoa1]

Jazz is very immature....she wants what she wants and does not want to do the work to get there...I know this must be very difficult.....but just because she is in a " special class" does not mean the rules don't apply to her..... I hope Greg sticks to his guns....after all he is the one footing the bill......No Therapy=No Surgery.

[woodscommaelle]

Was Dr. Bowers saying she wouldn't do the surgery bc of Jazz's weight?  Or it was too complicated?  Was she referring her to a diff doctor in NY?  I didn't understand that storyline.  And was it necessary for them to FLY to California for her to say she wouldn't be doing the surgery...or whatever she told them?  This couldn't be a phone conversation? 

Can someone please clarify what happened at the doctor's office?  Not sure why I'm not following...

[biakbiak]

22 minutes ago, woodscommaelle said:

Was Dr. Bowers saying she wouldn't do the surgery bc of Jazz's weight?  Or it was too complicated?  Was she referring her to a diff doctor in NY?  I didn't understand that storyline.  And was it necessary for them to FLY to California for her to say she wouldn't be doing the surgery...or whatever she told them?  This couldn't be a phone conversation? 

Can someone please clarify what happened at the doctor's office?  Not sure why I'm not following...

There were many things involved. Dr. Bowers was saying that if her BMI was too high no hospital would allow the surgery to happen. It seemed that she wanted the second opinion because she was worried with the lack of tissue to work with that would allow Jazz to have a successful sex life in the future.

As someone who developed very large breasts at an early age, I understood what Jazz was talking about. It's weird to have large breasts as cis or trans, you seem so exposedbecause everyone stares.

It broke my heart when Jeanette came in noticed Jazz's soccer goal was inside the house. When we first met her she was so into soccer and great at it.. 

Jeanette's. First response to be everyo e she loved was safe but bonded with the woman who lost so much of her stuff.

Edited January 10, 2018 by biakbiak

[woodscommaelle]

But is Dr. Bowers still ok doing the surgery if all the other requirements are met? Or no?

[biakbiak]

5 minutes ago, woodscommaelle said:

But is Dr. Bowers still ok doing the surgery if all the other requirements are met? Or no?

I have no idea but she seemed to be giving her great advice to see someone else who could help her have a more fufilling sex life.

[Madding crowd]

Dr. Bowers seemed very unsure of doing the surgery, for various reasons. I think that at a minimum, Jazz needs to get her binge eating under control. I think at this point, there are too many variables to even consider going ahead with the surgery. Jazz still seems depressed to me-she would benefit from counseling. I think Jeanette is crazy to just assume Jazz will get her two letters with no problems. It did seem odd to me that the Jennings family had to fly to California just to hear about the weight thing-I assume the show paid for the trip though. 

[ClareWalks]

Jazz annoyed me this episode. She seems aware enough to know that her binge eating is a problem, but she seems to refuse to do anything about it, or even try. Jeanette having such a cavalier attitude about getting Jazz therapist letters (which, Jazz needs to be in therapy, anyway, between the depression and the gender dysphoria and the binge eating disorder) was obnoxious as well. Jazz has visibly gained a HUGE amount of weight and now may be in the obese BMI category. If she gets a grip on this now she will lose the 30 lb before her surgery, but that's up to her.

[Kid]

4 hours ago, ClareWalks said:

Jazz annoyed me this episode. She seems aware enough to know that her binge eating is a problem, but she seems to refuse to do anything about it, or even try. Jeanette having such a cavalier attitude about getting Jazz therapist letters (which, Jazz needs to be in therapy, anyway, between the depression and the gender dysphoria and the binge eating disorder) was obnoxious as well. Jazz has visibly gained a HUGE amount of weight and now may be in the obese BMI category. If she gets a grip on this now she will lose the 30 lb before her surgery, but that's up to her.

I totally agree. She is self-medicating with food.  She described it herself perfectly that food sooths her.  She said it more than once.   In other words, she is using food to deal with her feelings because the food shuts the feelings down. The only person with any common sense in that household is the father and no one listens to him.

 Transitioning has to be tough for anybody at any age. But, I think everyone including her mother, is forgetting that she is a kid. Not only is she is transitioning, she’s being used as an activist, whether she’s doing it willingly or unwillingly. I think she’s too young to be placed in that role and subjected to that stress. And I think it’s taking a toll. 

I also do not think that they are going to get to any psychologist to just give them the letter.   She is clearly having issues. 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Kid

[gingerella]

Let's put ourselves into Dr. Marcy Bowers shoes for a moment (and before we do, WHY does Jazz always have to say her first and last name, is it like name dropping in the trans world? OHhhh, MARCY Bowers is your surgeon?!?)...Anyway, if I was a very high profile surgeon in my niche profession and had been on TV consulting with Jazz as my very high profile patient, I would probably also play catch up and watch the TV show. And if I did that, as Dr. Bowers, I would see what we all see, that Jazz is a very spoiled, immature, depressed kid with aLOT of unresolved emotional issues who is gaining weight and has an eating disorder to boot, and who has a very negative attitude towards counseling, and a very enabling mother.  My response as a high profile surgeon would be 'how can I walk away from this patient because it's going to be a lot of trouble owing to the fact that she isn't anywhere near ready for surgery and I foresee a lot of post surgical problems with her.'  Therefore, I am not surprised that Dr. Bowers seems to be trying to pass Jazz off to another surgeon who might be able to give her what she wants, albeit using another technique. 

I found it beYOND deluded that both Jeanette and Jazz seem to think all they need do is pick up a phone and call a therapist or two and just get a letter saying Jazz is mentally fit for surgery. Any therapist with a grain of professionalism would tell them that she needs to actually ATTEND a year of therapy (isn't it a year, or was it 6months?) and then and only then would they be able to determine IF she is ready for the surgery as per the terms required. Jesus H Christ, this mother/daughter duo is delusional beyond! I don't know how Greg deals with it because he and the rest of her family are normal sane people and seem to see what we see. It's clear the boys are very happy being away from this show pony circus and leading their own lives with their sister Ari. The fact that Jazz, in the previews, literally DEMANDS her family help her lose weight is the utmost of entitlement. It's amazing she can even persuade those new acquaintances to hang with her. They are leaps and bounds more mature than she is.

There's no way for any of us to know if her immaturity is a result of suppressed hormones or what, but to me, she comes off as a spoiled brat, regardless, who's never been told NO by her mother and anytime anyone in her family has told her no she just runs to her mother and her mother overrides them and says yes. That bullshit at the family dinner with her grandmother last week - where she tried to put her dad in the hot seat and explained that he doesn't think she's mature enough, 'do you want explain dad?!?' - I wanted to just smack her in the face. He should've just said 'yeah let me lay out why you're not mature enough' or 'you know what jazz, the world isn't all about you, tonight is about your grandmother, we can talk about this another time.' Someone needs to put this kid in her place already.

[Kid]

Well said, Gingerella!!

[bichonblitz]

22 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Any therapist with a grain of professionalism would tell them that she needs to actually ATTEND a year of therapy (isn't it a year, or was it 6months?) and then and only then would they be able to determine IF she is ready for the surgery as per the terms required. Jesus H Christ, this mother/daughter duo is delusional beyond! I

Wasn't this discussed last season when Jeanette brought Jazz to her  therapist cousin's office for a session and Jazz was a complete obnoxious brat and then told Jeanette that she refused to continue any therapy sessions with anyone?  Yea, we'll see where that gets her. 

[Bridget]

8 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Let's put ourselves into Dr. Marcy Bowers shoes for a moment (and before we do, WHY does Jazz always have to say her first and last name, is it like name dropping in the trans world? OHhhh, MARCY Bowers is your surgeon?!?)...Anyway, if I was a very high profile surgeon in my niche profession and had been on TV consulting with Jazz as my very high profile patient, I would probably also play catch up and watch the TV show. And if I did that, as Dr. Bowers, I would see what we all see, that Jazz is a very spoiled, immature, depressed kid with aLOT of unresolved emotional issues who is gaining weight and has an eating disorder to boot, and who has a very negative attitude towards counseling, and a very enabling mother.  My response as a high profile surgeon would be 'how can I walk away from this patient because it's going to be a lot of trouble owing to the fact that she isn't anywhere near ready for surgery and I foresee a lot of post surgical problems with her.'  Therefore, I am not surprised that Dr. Bowers seems to be trying to pass Jazz off to another surgeon who might be able to give her what she wants, albeit using another technique. 

I found it beYOND deluded that both Jeanette and Jazz seem to think all they need do is pick up a phone and call a therapist or two and just get a letter saying Jazz is mentally fit for surgery. Any therapist with a grain of professionalism would tell them that she needs to actually ATTEND a year of therapy (isn't it a year, or was it 6months?) and then and only then would they be able to determine IF she is ready for the surgery as per the terms required. Jesus H Christ, this mother/daughter duo is delusional beyond! I don't know how Greg deals with it because he and the rest of her family are normal sane people and seem to see what we see. It's clear the boys are very happy being away from this show pony circus and leading their own lives with their sister Ari. The fact that Jazz, in the previews, literally DEMANDS her family help her lose weight is the utmost of entitlement. It's amazing she can even persuade those new acquaintances to hang with her. They are leaps and bounds more mature than she is.

There's no way for any of us to know if her immaturity is a result of suppressed hormones or what, but to me, she comes off as a spoiled brat, regardless, who's never been told NO by her mother and anytime anyone in her family has told her no she just runs to her mother and her mother overrides them and says yes. That bullshit at the family dinner with her grandmother last week - where she tried to put her dad in the hot seat and explained that he doesn't think she's mature enough, 'do you want explain dad?!?' - I wanted to just smack her in the face. He should've just said 'yeah let me lay out why you're not mature enough' or 'you know what jazz, the world isn't all about you, tonight is about your grandmother, we can talk about this another time.' Someone needs to put this kid in her place already.

Right?! I agree 100%, specially when her uncle and his fiancee flew in to surprise Jacky. She really struggles with basic social skills and norms, even around her family.

Greg could have also said something like "well, calling me out like this is a perfect example of why you are not mature enough for the surgery." Too bad he didn't ask Jazz why she was not yet in therapy at the table, in front of everyone else to further explain his justified opinion, but I know going tit for tat with a teenager is never a winning situation and he's way too classy to ruin Jacky's birthday.

She didn't even reach out to shake Marshall's hand (guy whose house in the Keys was damaged) upon meeting him. You'd think that with as many people that she meets each year, she'd know enough to shake someone's hand when being introduced. That's another milestone of maturity that she has not yet mastered. 

I hate when Jazz refers to Dr. Bowers as "Marcy" when talking about her. What adult, let alone a kid, refers to any doctor by their first name? 

I hope Jeanette was listening when Jazz admitted she was immature while they were waiting for Dr. Bowers to come into the room. I was glad to hear it from her own mouth; it was totally organic and not forced into an admitting it. I would love to see Jazz apologize to Greg and admit he is correct.I

I thought it was kind of odd that Jazz seemed to be thrilled to be "the most suppressed" patient that Dr. Bowers has worked with. It came across to me as if Jazz was mentally reaping the reward of being labeled as "most suppressed", as if it was some superlative contest that she won and would add as a feather in her cap. She is extremely lucky that she has been supported by her parents and had access to the healthcare/doctors/medicine to be suppressed. It isn't anything SHE went out and accomplished herself. 

I still think there is a huge juxtaposition re: Jazz being "desperate to find love", yet clearly stating the idea of trying to masturbate/achieve an orgasm "isn't for her" (paraphrasing my interpretation) , per the doctor's instructions is a tell tale sign that she needs therapy. I think she is trying so hard to "act like a normal teen" with the whole dating thing. I really wish someone would tell her that teenage dating is having lunch together, hanging out at school during passing periods and other innocuous school based activities (sporting events, dances). Out of my 200 students in grade 10, I only know about six students with a gf/bf, and they break up and get back tgthr as often as most people brush their teeth. Jazz is lonely and thinks a romantic partner will "complete her", but as the saying goes, you have to love yourself first before you can love someone else. It also doesn't help that she is not as mature as her peers, and no one, regardless of age or gender, wants to date an immature person. 

[ClareWalks]

The immaturity is particularly glaring the closer she gets to surgery. I was astonished at the pizza parlor when Jazz announced that she'd just farted. No teenage girl would ever admit to, let alone bring attention to, her own farts. Especially in mixed company. Especially among people she didn't know well. ESPECIALLY WHILE EVERYONE IS TRYING TO EAT. It was just so weird to me. And Jazz talks about how awkward she feels around people, it's like "honey, stop making it worse."

[janedi]

This is my last attempt to get my opinion into this thread. then I will not be posting on this site any longer. I will say what i have to say and leave.

It seems to me like jazz is purposely doing things to avoid getting the surgery, while at the same time claiming she wants it so bad.

For example, she says no to every option they give her to help since she doesn't have enough material.

She refuses therapy even though its required.

She says she can't lose the the weight even though its required

Whether this is all conscience or unconscience is something to think about.

With that I bid you all farewell.

[ClareWalks]

29 minutes ago, janedi said:

This is my last attempt to get my opinion into this thread. then I will not be posting on this site any longer. I will say what i have to say and leave.

I don't know why you are leaving but that is too bad! I like your perspective. There could definitely be some self-sabotage going on. Binge eating is kind of related to that whole concept too. I wonder if Jazz will ever end up exploring why she is acting this way at any point this season. Her reluctance to do what is required to gain extra tissue is irritating. I get that she worries it will trigger her body image issues, but at the same time she is totally failing to look at this objectively to weigh pros and cons. She just wants the pros and no cons. It is definitely another signal of her immaturity as you astute posters have said!

[Kid]

1 hour ago, janedi said:

This is my last attempt to get my opinion into this thread. then I will not be posting on this site any longer. I will say what i have to say and leave.

 I don’t know what happened to make you come to this conclusion. All I can say about the post above is that you are spot on. I agree with your assessment completely.

Maybe, she is scared. A person can want something very badly but still be afraid to go through what you need to go through to get there.  Thus, the self sabotage.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Kid

[Muffyn]

To me there are multiple things going on with Jazz.  The eating issue needs to be addressed.  She realizes it is disordered eating as do her parents. She needs help with this.  Unfortunately it is not as easy as saying just stop doing this.  Disordered eating is complicated.

As to the surgery, of course they had to see Dr. Bowers in person because the show wants the footage.  As many of us talked about last year, we know there is more to these conversations than we are shown.  Jazz does seem to have unrealistic expectations.  She wants someone to tell her she can have surgery without any complications.  Life doesn't work that way.  She has specific issues based on having small genitalia.  Other people have different issues based on their anatomy.  This is complex, very personalized surgery.  

I don't think her weight gain is a way for her to avoid surgery.  Per the show, she was not aware of the weight requirement until she saw Dr. Bowers.  It was not mentioned last year by any surgeons.  Dr. Bowers did repeat her concerns regarding Jazz's libido.  She has been consistent with this.  She wants Jazz to have some level of sexual desire before undergoing surgery.  Also, while Jazz and Jeanette have decided that they will get approval letters from psychiatrists easily, it does not work that way.  

Jazz needs to see a legitimate psychiatrist; that is, one much less likely to chat on air like cousin Debbie.  She has issues to explore including depression, food issues, anxiety, etc.  Jazz isn't the first person reticent to see a psychiatrist.  It can be tough work.  She hasn't shown herself as someone who wants to expose her true inner concerns at a deep level.  She reminds me of a former friend who would see a therapist and immediately decide the person couldn't handle her issues because they didn't immediately delve into everything.  

While I do think Jeanette is unrealistic in her expectations, I don't think she's pushing Jazz into anything.  To me it is more that she is not willing to tell Jazz to slow down.  Greg is a good parent.  Jeanette is a parent scared of telling her daughter "no" and having her do something drastic in response.  She needs to work on that because good cop/bad cop is no way to parent. 

Jazz is very immature for her age.  She has been both over-exposed and over-protected.  Add some spoiling and you have someone who in many ways acts much younger than her peers.  

[Nowhere]

1 hour ago, janedi said:

This is my last attempt to get my opinion into this thread. then I will not be posting on this site any longer. I will say what i have to say and leave.

It seems to me like jazz is purposely doing things to avoid getting the surgery, while at the same time claiming she wants it so bad.

For example, she says no to every option they give her to help since she doesn't have enough material.

She refuses therapy even though its required.

She says she can't lose the the weight even though its required

Whether this is all conscience or unconscience is something to think about.

With that I bid you all farewell.

Don't bid farewell. Do you think Jazz is having a change of heart or do you think she's just scared? I think it is very possible that she has been feeling pressured to have the full surgery because she has been put in the public eye. What would it look like for the family if she were to say that she is ok with being male? It's a little too late now I guess.

This is difficult because you either start hormone therapy young so that they look like females risking the fact that they may change their minds, or you let it go like Noelle and deal with a girl basically looking like a man, although I'm sure Noelle has enough of a penis to have the surgery with no problem. 

Id like to know what everyone's opinion is. Is Jazz at the point of no return considering her public persona? How would everyone take it if she came out and said she made a childish mistake in thinking she was female? She should have been in counseling as soon as she said that as a very young child so that they could make sure it was real before putting her in the spotlight. I really believe that it is ok for little boys to enjoy girlish things and that doesn't mean they are girls. Maybe Jazz thought that since she liked girlish things, she was a girl. Could she have been mistaken? 

[ClareWalks]

Oh yeah, when Noelle was so happy to report that a guy told her "you look like a lesbian," I LOL'd. Hashtag: goals! I love Noelle so much. I would watch the shit out of The Noelle Show.

[Muffyn]

From what we have been told on the show and in her specials, Jazz was in therapy when she was younger.  She has not expressed concern that she has made a mistake.  She just doesn't want to go to therapy now.  She would not have been approved for hormones based solely on her or her parents word alone.  

[Nowhere]

Of course she hasn't expressed concern that she has made a mistake. That would be embarrassing and wouldn't go over well with the trans community and all her supporters. It would spark too much debate on the subject of children making these decisions. What I was asking is if it is possible that she did make a mistake but is in this too far to back out. My personal opinion is that she is a girl but I don't know what is going on in her thoughts. Sometimes she acts like this is all too much of a pain in the ass for her.  I think she should definitely wait on bottom surgery but mom is pushing it even when dad says she's not ready. Therapy for her eating disorder is a must but mom thinks she doesn't need any therapy at all. Just call for a letter? Way to ignore your kids serious issues. 

[SunnyBeBe]

There are so many thoughtful and insightful posts about this episode above. I agree about the immaturity and I see that, especially in the context of delayed gratification. Jazz doesn't seem to know the concept.   Dr. Bowers suggested several things that would INCREASE the likelihood of a successful surgery.  The more you increase the chance of success, the better.  The things that you have to do might not be pleasant or fun.  In fact, they may be painful and inconvenient, HOWEVER, they help you increase your chance of success.  You suck it up and do it.  It's short term.  Better be miserable for 3-9 months, than have to live for the rest of your life with a poor outcome.  I'm not sure why Dr. Bowers didn't explain that.  Maybe she did in private, but, Jeannette didn't seem to get it.  She said one of the suggestions was a last option. What? I would suggest that if Jazz can't handle the hormone cream, tissue expanders and weight loss, then, how can she even begin to handle the actual surgery?  I hope her parents give up on this idea of getting the surgery while she's in high school.  It just sounds like she's not ready.  Besides, I do not believe that she will get authentic letters.  I hope cousin Debbie doesn't cough up one that is NOT based on sound reasons.  And even if she did, I don't think a real doctor would accept it, since they are family. 

Other observations:

I thought that Jazz burped aloud at the table when eating pizza with her friends.  Plus, she commented on the fart.  So male like.  Does she know this? But, even guys have more manners than that.

Did you notice how often Jazz lies down?  I know people who do this.  They are all very obese and they hardly ever move.  They seem content to lie down, regardless of what they are doing, reading, talking, etc. 

Did you hear Jazz say that she didn't attend any of the workshops at the LGBT conference?  So, she only signed autographs?  What's the point? Wouldn't the workshops be inspiring, educational, and fun?  

I like Dad, but, he doesn't seem to understand that eating disorders are not cured by willpower.  It's not that simple.  People who don't have the problem, may not get it.  She needs to be evaluated by a mental health professional who specializes in eating disorders, imo.  

Edited January 10, 2018 by SunnyBeBe

[Caracoa1]

I'm starting to wonder if off camera Jazz threatens her mother with  ideas of "self harm" to get her to give in to Jazz's  wants?

[MegD]

1 hour ago, Nowhere said:

That would be embarrassing and wouldn't go over well with the trans community and all her supporters. It would spark too much debate on the subject of children making these decisions. What I was asking is if it is possible that she did make a mistake but is in this too far to back out.

Considering that her parents filed a few lawsuits related to her treatment (I know they sued to let her play on the girls' soccer team, and I think her use of the bathroom), it would be embarrassing for them as well because she was very small when the litigation started. Her parents (and potentially that aunt who just happens to specialize in gender psychology) would have a lot to lose if people started to question if she made a mistake or if she was pushed into gender dysphoria as some sort of stunt or for some sort of gain. I am not saying that this is necessarily true or that she is not actually transgender, I am saying that there's something going on that we are only seeing small pieces of and that the show hints at, very unsuccessfully, raising more questions than answers.

I suspect that Jazz rarely hears no. I think very early on, she learned how to get Jeanette to do whatever she wanted. Knowing that self-harm has occurred in her past, I suspect that she may threaten self-harm when she's told no. I think Greg is so hen-pecked that he just lets Jeanette run the Jazz show. Jazz is in for a rude awakening when she starts being told no. Jeanette's going to be hard pressed to find two doctors willing to sign off that Jazz is mentally ready for this surgery. Until she accepts responsibility for her binge eating, makes proactive moves towards addressing some of the uncomfortable things that will be part of the surgery (potentially needing tissue expanders or testosterone cream), and the potential that she may not get the one quick surgery she wants and may need more than one surgery, she's not going to be ready to undergo the major operation that gender correction surgery is going to be.

[calpurnia99]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

There are so many thoughtful and insightful posts about this episode above. I agree about the immaturity and I see that, especially in the context of delayed gratification. Jazz doesn't seem to know the concept.   Dr. Bowers suggested several things that would INCREASE the likelihood of a successful surgery.  The more you increase the chance of success, the better.  The things that you have to do might not be pleasant or fun.  In fact, they may be painful and inconvenient, HOWEVER, they help you increase your chance of success.  You suck it up and do it.  It's short term.  Better be miserable for 3-9 months, than have to live for the rest of your life with a poor outcome.  I'm not sure why Dr. Bowers didn't explain that.  Maybe she did in private, but, Jeannette didn't seem to get it.  She said one of the suggestions was a last option. What? I would suggest that if Jazz can't handle the hormone cream, tissue expanders and weight loss, then, how can she even begin to handle the actual surgery?  I hope her parents give up on this idea of getting the surgery while she's in high school.  It just sounds like she's not ready.  Besides, I do not believe that she will get authentic letters.  I hope cousin Debbie doesn't cough up one that is NOT based on sound reasons.  And even if she did, I don't think a real doctor would accept it, since they are family. 

 

I came here to post exactly that about the stupidity of not listening to the doctor. Plus, Greg complaining that they saw 4 other doctors and no one said anything about tissue expanders. NO, those other doctors all said they could not do a standard vaginoplasty in one operation! They said there was not enough to work with. Two said they would use some other body part, I cannot remember, but something like the colon.  One said it would take 2 operations. So I asked in this forum, how come all of a sudden Dr. Bowers says there IS enough to work with?  Where is she getting it from? What is her secret that she can do something that 4 other doctors said could not be done.  It did not make sense. The tissue expanders sound like a great solution. The other doctors didn't think of it which is why it was not mentioned by them. Jazz is so mad because she was promised one operation AND to get the STANDARD procedure when the 4 other doctors said it was impossible. I cannot believe the dad is not understanding this. They thought Dr. Bowers was some kind of magician?

She is so immature to realize that it is worth using the testosterone and the tissue expanders to have the right outcome. Someone in their 30's would understand this. A mature person would understand this that even though it would be unpleasant, it is worth it in the long run. This is why Jazz is still such a child. The parents also were not helping her to understand that either. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by calpurnia99

[woodscommaelle]

Jazz is going through some serious shit right now, and I wish she didn’t have to have the world to watch. I feel very sad for her. 

[calpurnia99]

As far as the therapist letter, I think Jeanette thinks it is to show that Jazz really is sure that she wants to be female forever and Jeanette feels that any therapist would totally agree so it is a simple thing. 

I am a little confused, is the therapist letters to state the person is 100% sure about changing sexes? In that case, Jeanette is sure this is a simple process. But as some of you are stating, is the letter to show she is mature and has not psychological issues? These are 2 totally different things. 

[Nowhere]

The trans people I've known had to see a therapist to prove that they are mentally stable enough to go through with and complete the transition. I think there's a good case to be made for Jazz being denied a letter due to her maturity level, depression, and eating disorder. I don't see what's wrong with waiting until she's over 18.

[SunnyBeBe]

I agree about waiting, but, I also think that you have to have the letters, even if you are over age 18.  Right?

[Scarlett45]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree about waiting, but, I also think that you have to have the letters, even if you are over age 18.  Right?

Yes you do. 

[Caracoa1]

I don't understand why she is so against the testosterone cream....it is only temporary and would make for a far better outcome....since Jazz has yet to feel any kind d if sexual feelings she surely doesn't comprehend how important it will be to her in the future....she needs serious therapy before this surgery...I know she thinks she is mature but  is very coddled by her mother and is very much still acting like a child.

[calpurnia99]

She claims the cream will make it bigger and she doesn't like it. If it got bigger it would be horrible for her and her mother agrees. 

[SunnyBeBe]

1 hour ago, calpurnia99 said:

She claims the cream will make it bigger and she doesn't like it. If it got bigger it would be horrible for her and her mother agrees. 

Perhaps Jazz needs to watch some documentaries on medical conditions that require tissue expanders.  I've seen them.  Some people have to have them done on their face or head, so it's very visible to the public.  But, they do it, because it's for the greater good of having a better outcome.  I swear, why would she and her mom not get this? It's bizarre. 

[Nowhere]

8 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I agree about waiting, but, I also think that you have to have the letters, even if you are over age 18.  Right?

Yes. I've never known anyone to transition who wasn't in their twenties or thirties, frontal lobe fully developed. She would still need a letter but at least she'd be an adult and maybe more mature. She needs to get some things worked out within herself and sometimes it takes being away from Mommy and living an adult life to accomplish that. I don't know why they are rushing this. They've already said she has a tiny penis and she has no desire for sex so what's the rush? Is it just so she can wear a bathing suit without a skirt? Not a good enough reason when she has all these mental issues. She looks and acts like a female. She should be happy about that for just a few more years and count her blessings. 

[calpurnia99]

It is so bizarre between the cream and the tissue expanders how much they refuse because she would have to deal with her male genitalia.  I feel like we are watching a big train wreck of modern medicine take place Live before our eyes.  It really seems like Reality TV and sad the way things started and the way things have been unfolding as time goes on.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, which is what she wants, in more ways than one!

[Lynn]

Nowhere,  I totally agree with this. She just needs to chill and be a normal non-sexually active teenager. The only advantage to bottom surgery from the hormonally blocked and enhanced situation that she has now would be the ability to have sex, which she doesn't need, and only conceptually wants.   

Also, I agree with a previously poster that Dr. Bowers probably wants to ditch her as a patient.  It looks like a very difficult case with high chance for difficult outcome, recovery, and patient satisfaction.  She should have told them months ago that when Jazz wanted to proceed, she would need several months of tissue expanders.  Dr. Bowers admitted they had little experience with testosterone blocked children, and Jazz is an extreme case of this "unintended consequence." It feels like experimenting on children.

Also, can someone explain how Dr. Bowers has a feminine voice but Noelle does not? And how did the young friend who had just had bottom surgery (with a difficult recovery) have enough tissue with being blocked?  She didn't appear to be post puberty?

[Kid]

3 hours ago, Caracoa1 said:

I don't understand why she is so against the testosterone cream....it is only temporary and would make for a far better outcome....since Jazz has yet to feel any kind d if sexual feelings she surely doesn't comprehend how important it will be to her in the future....she needs serious therapy before this surgery...I know she thinks she is mature but  is very coddled by her mother and is very much still acting like a child.

I got the impression she was against it because that means that her genitals will get bigger.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Kid

[Kid]

55 minutes ago, calpurnia99 said:

It is so bizarre between the cream and the tissue expanders how much they refuse because she would have to deal with her male genitalia.  I feel like we are watching a big train wreck of modern medicine take place Live before our eyes.  It really seems like Reality TV and sad the way things started and the way things have been unfolding as time goes on.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, which is what she wants, in more ways than one!

I got that impression as well. Her fear of her genitalia getting bigger, even to achieve a result that she wants, is almost pathological. And that’s sad. She’s just a kid.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Kid

[SunnyBeBe]

In response to the question about Dr. Bowers.  I have seen several documentaries that feature Dr. Bowers over the years.  She used to practice medicine as a male, as that is how she was born.  She then moved to Colorado after her transition to female, where she had a very successful practice specializing in transgender procedures.  The last I heard, she had moved back to CA.  I THINK that I have seen footage of Dr. Bowers before her transition.  I THINK that she had a rather feminine voice before her transition.  If you get the chance, explore her story.  It's rather amazing.  She stayed married to her wife, the one she was married to as a male for years.  In Colorado, she did enter into a relationship with a woman.  It was a rather amusing setup.  

I hope that Jazz and her family can try to accept what Dr. Bowers is offering them and understand that she's trying to do what is in Jazz's best interest.  Yes, I know that they think that things are set in stone and they won't adjust on certain things, but, they need to open their minds.  

[gingerella]

Yeah, I think those that mentioned this hit the nail on the head - Jazz has so many phobias about genitalia and is so repulsed by her own body, that she is nowhere near mentally prepared for this surgery. From what she says, she wants this cartoonish fairy tale body, and she doesnt get that even female anatomy isn't always pretty and can be, lets say, messy! She bitches about the colon option because for a short time there might be an odor. Big fucking deal. She'd probably be surprised to learn that with a real vajayjay, guess what?! There is sometimes odor! She is delusional on every aspect of genital anatomy. Everything grosses her out about herself, yet she wont do what needs to be done to get the anatomy she wants. Its funny, I've heard of many trans women who chose not to have bottom surgery because that's their body and they dont want to alter it to that extent. And I suppose they are also sexually mature and willing to live with what's between their legs and not mess too much with their ability to have a satisfying sex life. I would bet good money Jazz hasn't even tried masturbating because she doesnt want to touch herself. And she's that lazy. Any time the Drs ask her about doing something, the answer is no. No.No.No. The kid has major issues. Any therapist watching this show would never give her a letter stating she's ready for this surgery. And her father is correct, she wont do what needs doing for a full and successful recovery because she's a lazy brat who just thinks everyone is here to serve her because...wait for it...she's trans! Honestly, people like Noelle and so much more deserving of a show than this kid. TLC should pull the plug on I am Jazz and just revert over to The Noelle Show (aka, Hey, You're a Lesbian!).

ETA: I have noticed more and more, as Jazz ages, she gets more male traits in terms of her behavior with the farting, burping, eating like a slob, dressing like a sloppy dude, etc. Basically, she acts way more like her brothers than her sister.

Edited January 12, 2018 by gingerella