Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Starfish35]

22 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

I did enjoy the mocking the "lullaby" received in Thor: Ragnarok. 

Yes! So did I! :)  

Edited January 11, 2018 by Starfish35

[scarynikki12]

I am nothing if not a sheep.

 

FAVORITE BATMAN MOVIE - The Dark Knight 

FAVORITE SUPERMAN MOVIE - Man of Steel

FAVORITE SPIDER-MAN MOVIE - Spider-Man: Homecoming

FAVORITE IRON MAN MOVIE - Iron Man

FAVORITE CAPTAIN AMERICA MOVIE - Captain America: The Winter Soldier

FAVORITE THOR MOVIE - Thor: Ragnarok

FAVORITE X-MEN MOVIE(S) - X2

FAVORITE MCU MOVIE(S) - Winter Soldier, The Avengers, Ragnarok, Civil War

FAVORITE DCEU MOVIE(S) - Wonder Woman

FAVORITE FANTASTIC 4 MOVIE - Not applicable 

FAVORITE COMICS-BASED MOVIE NOT IN ANY OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES - Blade

FAVORITE MCU CHARACTER(S) - Steve Rogers, T’Challa, Natasha, Thor

FAVORITE DCEU CHARACTER(S) - Diana Prince

FAVORITE X-MEN CHARACTER(S) - Professor X, Magneto

FAVORITE COMICS MOVIE PAIRING(S) - Diana and Steve, Bruce and Selina 

FAVORITE CHRIS (Evans, Hemsworth, Pine, Pratt) - Hemsworth > Evans > Pratt=Pine

COMICS MOVIE YOU'RE MOST LOOKING FORWARD TO IN 2018 - Black Panther 

FAVORITE DC LIVE-ACTION SHOW(S) - LOT, Gotham 

FAVORITE DC ANIMATED SHOW(S) - Batman The Animated Series 

FAVORITE MARVEL LIVE-ACTION SHOW(S) - Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Agent Carter, Shield

FAVORITE MARVEL ANIMATED SHOW(S) - Not applicable 

FAVORITE COMICS SHOW(S) NOT IN ANY OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES - Lucifer 

FAVORITE TV BATMAN/BRUCE WAYNE - Kevin Conroy (Batman) and David Masouz (Bruce)

FAVORITE TV CLARK KENT/SUPERMAN - Dean Cain

FAVORITE DCTV CHARACTER(S) - Sara Lance, Jax, Mick Rory, Snart; Wally, Julian, Iris; Felicity, Diggle; J’onn, Kara, Alex; Bruce, Selina, Harvey, Jerome

FAVORITE MARVEL TV CHARACTER(S) - Peggy Carter, Bobbi, Hunter, Cottonmouth, Jessica Jones, Trish

FAVORITE PAIRING(S) - 

Real-Bruce and Selina 

Imagined-Sara and Snart

NEW COMICS SHOW YOU'RE MOST LOOKING FORWARD TO IN 2018 - Black Lightning

COMICS SHOW YOU WANT TO WATCH BUT HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO YET - I’m caught up on everything that interests me

[Velocity23]

[BkWurm1]

On 1/9/2018 at 8:00 PM, tennisgurl said:

My next "this hiatus is super long and I get bored WAY too easily at work" thought experiment? What if the Arrowverse did a week of Elseworld stories? 

In DC comics, Elseworld stories are out of continuity stories putting characters into new situations or settings, and just having a fun little thought experiment about it. Usually it involved changing the time period (what if Batman lived in the Victorian Era?) or some kind of Alternate Universe based on a change in the story (what if Superman landed in the USSR instead of Kansas?) or just a What If story (what if everyone just randomly lost their powers?), and they just play with interesting ideas that they normally cant do due to continuity issues, or because it would be such a huge change to the story, characters, or setting. It would be a bit like when they explore the various Alternate Earths (you see characters you know in totally different ways) but without having to worry about continuity. I mean, I guess they could easily work it into continuity if they wanted (The Music Miester is up to his old tricks again!) but I think it would be fun to just have all four shows just do something totally different as an opportunity to let the actors play with something different, or a try a new setting. 

Like "What if Arrow took place in ancient Rome" or "What would happen if Iris got super powers instead of Barry?" or "What if LoT took place on a steampunk Earth" or even "What if Rip Hunter gathered a different bunch of weirdos for his mission?" or "What if Supergirl made it to Earth when she was supposed to, and she was Clark's mentor? " or "What if everyone with superpowers lost them, and everyone without them got superpowers?" or stuff like that? Does that sound interesting, or is it just me? 

If they did a version where Felicity was the masked hero and Oliver the nerdy tech guy, I would be very down with an Elseworlds story.

6 hours ago, quarks said:

Does no one other than me have kind memories of Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends?

Oh, right. I'm old. Carry on!

I shipped Spiderman and Firestorm hard on that show.  

 

Quote

It just seems like a huge contrast when what sparked the discussion originally was praise for Legends for Tomorrow because Legends actually lets non-main characters have storylines together and then people turn around and say James (despite not doing much) feels like he "matters" again just because he is doing nothing next to Kara than last season when he got a storyline about slowly bonding with Winn which imo culimnated/climaxed when James told Winn he considers him a brother now. On Legends, nobody would ever consider that character and relationship development somehow does not count just because Sara is not around when Mick has a deep storyline about his messed up father supported by Nate or just because Sara so far has paid little attention to the Amaya/Zari/Totem storyline

Supergirl and Legends started with and continue to have different dynamics.  What works for Legends in my opinion doesn't always for Supergirl.  Legends set it up right from the start that it was everyone's story.  Supergirl has made it clear everyone else it there to serve her story.  Veer too long or too far from that and such scenes detract rather than add to my enjoyment. 

Last year I did enjoy Winn and Lyra and Alex and Maggie's stories but it was in spite of how disconnected to the rest of the show it felt and I did resent the whole time that Winn and Alex lost out on being a bigger part of Kara's life and she a part of theirs.  James came off terrible in his arc, happily and recklessly risking Winn's life for nothing more than his ego.  I liked James in season one and I like him again in season three.  That's how I judge the success or failure of his story.        

Edited January 11, 2018 by BkWurm1

[scarynikki12]

Elseworlds would be a solid crossover premise and could exist outside the ongoing stories. 

[Sakura12]

I think an Elseworlds story would be fun for the Crossover, we'd get to see all Arrowverse characters playing different versions of themselves and it wouldn't affect their regular story arcs. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by Sakura12

[Vera]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Joss thinks the key to good writing is figuring out what people want and what makes sense, and doing the exact opposite because TWIST or ANGST or I KNOW BEST.

Joss was the one who during Buffy, said in regards to audience preferences, 'Don’t give people what they want, give them what they need.'

[scarynikki12]

He was absolutely right at that time but hasn’t had as good a track record since.

[Starfish35]

I think I read something long ago (I couldn't find a source for this now if i wanted to, so maybe I'm not remembering it right) that Joss used to go online and find out what the top theories were or main things people were expecting and then do the opposite of that.  I don't know if that's true or not.

[tennisgurl]

I think doing a bunch of Elseworld stories would be a great way for the writers and actors to stretch their range a bit and have fun, without having to worry about drastic changes to the status quo, or derailing character development. You could even bring back some old characters if the actors wanted to do a guest spot. And none of it would really affect anything, so you wouldn't have to worry much about continuity. 

Any other ideas for Elseworld tales? I like the "Felicity is the vigilante and Oliver is the tech nerd" idea, and thats what makes Elseworld stories so much fun!

[raven]

Remember to not spoiler tag in this thread as it already marked as

[tennisgurl]

But wait, theres more!

FAVORITE BATMAN MOVIE - The Dark Knight

FAVORITE SUPERMAN MOVIE - Man of Steel

FAVORITE SPIDER-MAN MOVIE - Spider-Man Homecoming 

FAVORITE IRON MAN MOVIE - Iron Man 1

FAVORITE CAPTAIN AMERICA MOVIE - Winter Soldier

FAVORITE THOR MOVIE - Thor Ragnarok 

FAVORITE X-MEN MOVIE(S) - X-Men: Days of Futures Past 

FAVORITE MCU MOVIE(S): CA Winter Soldier, GoTG 1+2, The Avengers 

FAVORITE DCEU MOVIE(S) - Wonder Woman, The Dark Knight 

FAVORITE FANTASTIC 4 MOVIE - The original, even though none of them are very good. 

FAVORITE COMICS-BASED MOVIE NOT IN ANY OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES - Sin City, Judge Dredd (the newer one). 

FAVORITE MCU CHARACTER(S) - Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Sam Wilson, I honestly have too many to name :) 

FAVORITE DCEU CHARACTER(S) - Diana Prince, Steve Trevor, Barry Allen 

FAVORITE X-MEN CHARACTER(S) - Young Professor X, Magneto, Cyclops 

FAVORITE COMICS MOVIE PAIRING(S)-  Diana Prince/Steve Trevor, Peter Parker/Gwen Stacey, Wade Wilson/Vanessa Carlysle

FAVORITE CHRIS: Evans, followed by Pratt. 

ETA: COMICS MOVIE YOU'RE MOST LOOKING FORWARD TO IN 2018: Black Panther, Infinity War, Deadpool 2 

Edited January 12, 2018 by tennisgurl

[tofutan]

Quote

  I liked James in season one and I like him again in season three.  That's how I judge the success or failure of his story.        

I would rather have a character be abrasive rather than a character be nothing than just a yesman. Especially since I didn't find the season 1 story of waffling between Kara and Lucy all that compelling either. S3 doens't have this problem, but then again, I'd argue James hasn't had a story in s3. He had a story setup but the show has done nothing with it. James is getting very close imo to "sexy lamp" syndrome. I'd rather have a character I can sink my teeth in, who has strengths and flaws that get explored, than a character who comes across as pleasantly agreeable furniture. 

I hope it's getting better now that they have started the Lena/James bit, but I can't shake the feeling that it's gonna be very predicable in rather than exploring his character they will just have James protect Lena to signal to the audience that he is now sexy again. I think it's very telling that rather than having James and Lena have meaningful conversations and fall in love over it, the moment they want him back in sexy love interest territory, they bust out the Guardian tech again. It's because they don't actually know how to write for pleasant furniture James. 

Quote

Supergirl and Legends started with and continue to have different dynamics. 

And I have no problem if anybody said "Supergirl Season 3A was successful in returning to a more hierarchical main character structure which is exactly what I think it should be like". But to me it's just exactly the opposite to claim that s3 has been good for supporting characters (remember: to me Alex is not a supporting character) especially when to comes in the context of praising Legends for being a show that really gives all their characters space. IMO Winn and J'onn have received the clearest downgrades with Winn just having no story whatsoever and J'onn's father storyline being treated extremely shoddily. James to me also loses out and even Lena's story suffers from being extremely choppy (I think she is hardest to compare since she wasn't a regular cast member in s2, only a guest star).  The way they didn't bother to properly build up James and Lena is imo just insulting and I just hope that maybe it will get better now that they are officially a thing? Maybe the writers are more excited for writing for them as a thing than they obviously were about making them a thing? 

Again this is not that huge a problem. I even generally agree with the approach that Kara and Alex are the most important characters and the show stands and falls with the quality of their storylines. I just couldn't disagree more with the sentence that this season has had good writing for the supporting characters. "getting to stand next to Kara" is not the same as "good writing". Proper build up and character continuity and lack of plotholes and show don't tell are good writing. Something that the show violates a lot this season, particulary in the supporting characters' storylines. 

==> I'm not even asking for the story structure to be more like season 2. I think both approaches have their benefits and drawbacks. But I would like those supporting stories to be better written. And it bothers me because they were so much better at this in the past, both in s2 and s1. Sometimes just a single line or additional scene would have done to improve the quality of those supporting storylines (like give J'onn a few lines about how awkward it is with his father around if you are not gonna show the father for X episodes, or give us an in universe reason like experiences power troubles to explain why J'onn can't go into the field, either gives us some scenes building up James/Lena or intentionally write them as a Winn/Lyra style couple that just explodes without prior build up and then goes from there, rather than telling us about scenes that were never shown on screen. Or like stop pretending that Kara and Sam are best friends and "sisters" (especially since Sam doesn't even bother to tell her "sisters" that she is having blackouts, doesn't sound like a very deep friendship to me). The storyline works just as well if Kara "just" thinks that Sam is a very sweet and pleasant and good person she just got to know rather than trying to tell us that this relationships which had like 2 scenes together is suddenly more meaningful than friendships we have seen consistently since season 1). 

I have no problem with people liking 3 over 2, I just don't like it when people claim things about s2 that are blatantly not the case (like: the supporting characters had no life of their own in s2 when season 2 was all about giving everybody and their dog their own homelife) You can still like s3 better because it does better in categories A, B, C and D which matter to you without having to claim that it's doing better in all categories. s2 can do things better than s3 but still be worse to you if it's a category you just don't care about like let's say "number of talking robots" or "number of times the Fortress of Solitude has been shown" or "amount of awkward social issues metaphors using aliens". 

Edited January 12, 2018 by tofutan

[scarynikki12]

6 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I didn't like Bruce and Natasha for several reasons, and yeah, it was random and awkward.  

Honestly though, I have to admit that my primary reason was that, having previously seen both Hulk movies, I had gotten rather attached to Bruce/Betty, and I liked that Betty was someone special to both Bruce and Hulk.  (Although the MCU has pretty much ignored her existance since then.) 

I assume that the rights extend to Betty.  Marvel gets to play with Hulk strictly in a "supporting member of the team" capacity and Feige has commented on how they're telling a Hulk story over all of the movies he's in since they can't do a standalone.  I don't know if the Marvel team found a loophole that let them use Thunderbolt Ross for Civil War, if his presence was allowed because Hulk was absent, or if Universal charged an additional fee but I do know that Betty showing up would mean screentime with Banner/Hulk and that would veer too close to breaking the rules.  Universal won't let that happen.  The best we can hope for is a team up ala Homecoming but, even then, Marvel's focus will most likely be on using Namor since they've gotten to play with Hulk as a supporting character.

[Starfish35]

13 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I assume that the rights extend to Betty.  Marvel gets to play with Hulk strictly in a "supporting member of the team" capacity

Does someone else have the rights to the Hulk characters? I didn't realize that.  ETA:  Oh wait, you said Universal. So the second Hulk movie - the one where Tony appears in the post-credits scene.  That was done by Universal?

Edited January 12, 2018 by Starfish35

[tofutan]

Quote

Black Lightning 1.03 - LaWanda: The Book of Burial Press Release

HOLDING OUT HOPE — As Jefferson Pierce (Cress Williams) tries to determine if the community can survive without the help of Black Lightning (Cress Williams), Anissa (Nafessa Williams) starts to come into her own. Meanwhile, Jefferson and Lynn (Christine Adams) try and figure out their new dynamic. Finally, Jennifer (China Anne McClain) reveals to her parents that she has been grappling with something big. James Remar, Damon Gupton and Marvin Jones III also star. The episode was written by Jan Nash and directed by Mark Tonderai (#103). Original airdate 1/30/2018.

LOL, that must be one of the most vague episode descriptions I've ever read. 

[way2interested]

13 minutes ago, tofutan said:

LOL, that must be one of the most vague episode descriptions I've ever read. 

*Arrow's s6 episode descriptions*: Hold my beer.

[scarynikki12]

27 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Does someone else have the rights to the Hulk characters? I didn't realize that.  ETA:  Oh wait, you said Universal. So the second Hulk movie - the one where Tony appears in the post-credits scene.  That was done by Universal?

I did a quick search for more details and this comes from Wikipedia so there may be some things missing but, to sum up:

Universal had the sole rights but missed the sequel deadline so the basic movie rights reverted to Marvel.  The two teamed up for The Incredible Hulk, because it was 2008 and Disney hadn't yet bought Marvel so they needed a distributor.  That, plus the theme park rights that Universal retained, kept Hulk and company from fully returning to Marvel control.  Disney buying them in 2009 just complicates things so, technically, they could bring in Betty if they wanted but Universal could throw a fit, charge Disney a bunch, and the character isn't important enough (in the overall scheme of things) for Marvel to make the effort.  They did with Ross because he's the type of asshole who would enthuse about the Sokovia Accords (and isn't in Civil War very much) so he proved an important catalyst.  Betty, for all of her smarts, really only matters to Banner's personal story so she's considered expendable. 

 

ETA: I totally forgot this one important point.  Universal also has what's called Right of First Refusal and they've been using it.  It's what gives them the power to halt a standalone Hulk movie, hence Banner's story playing out over multiple movies.  If any studio other than Disney had bought Marvel, Universal may have been willing to let a standalone get made, or work out a deal so that Namor could be used, but Disney parks already make way more money than Universal parks so they aren't giving an inch if they don't absolutely have to.

[Trini]

David Harewood will also be attending the DC in D.C. event this weekend:

[Starfish35]

27 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I did a quick search for more details and this comes from Wikipedia so there may be some things missing but, to sum up:

Universal had the sole rights but missed the sequel deadline so the basic movie rights reverted to Marvel.  The two teamed up for The Incredible Hulk, because it was 2008 and Disney hadn't yet bought Marvel so they needed a distributor.  That, plus the theme park rights that Universal retained, kept Hulk and company from fully returning to Marvel control.  Disney buying them in 2009 just complicates things so, technically, they could bring in Betty if they wanted but Universal could throw a fit, charge Disney a bunch, and the character isn't important enough (in the overall scheme of things) for Marvel to make the effort.  They did with Ross because he's the type of asshole who would enthuse about the Sokovia Accords (and isn't in Civil War very much) so he proved an important catalyst.  Betty, for all of her smarts, really only matters to Banner's personal story so she's considered expendable. 

 

ETA: I totally forgot this one important point.  Universal also has what's called Right of First Refusal and they've been using it.  It's what gives them the power to halt a standalone Hulk movie, hence Banner's story playing out over multiple movies.  If any studio other than Disney had bought Marvel, Universal may have been willing to let a standalone get made, or work out a deal so that Namor could be used, but Disney parks already make way more money than Universal parks so they aren't giving an inch if they don't absolutely have to.

Oh wow.  That's very interesting - thanks!  And yeah, that explains why Betty has disappeared.   I was never able to understand that.

[Primal Slayer]

I really wish we could get the details on Universals Film distribution rights for The Hulk. How many films does it involve? Im surprised they didnt have the same stipulations that FOX had. 

[statsgirl]

5 hours ago, Vera said:

Joss was the one who during Buffy, said in regards to audience preferences, 'Don’t give people what they want, give them what they need.'

The arrogance of that is breathtaking. How does he know what I need? He  has no idea who I  am or what I've gone through.

 

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

happily and recklessly risking Winn's life for nothing more than his ego.  I liked James in season one and I like him again in season three.  That's how I judge the success or failure of his story.        

I agree. If I don't enjoy the story,  I'm not going to watch no matter what it looks like in the abstract.

[quarks]

My understanding is that technically, Universal doesn't own (and never did own) the film rights to Hulk - the contract they signed with Marvel was for the distribution rights, with refusal rights in case the resulting films (made by Marvel Studios and other production studios) sucked.

Disney holds the trademark, film and production rights.

That means that Disney can film Hulk and Hulk characters all it wants - but, if Hulk is the main character in the film, then Universal holds the right to send that film to theatres - and thus get a chunk of the profits. Add in that Disney hasn't really been eager to work with another distributor since the old RKO Pictures days, and, well, Hulk will probably be staying a supporting character for some time.

The Universal theme parks have an entirely separate, unrelated contract for trademark/licensing of various Marvel characters, which allows them to have Marvel rides and to sell (some) Marvel merchandise. That contract currently prevents Disney from building any Marvel rides in Walt Disney World - although Disney can build those rides in their non-Orlando Disney parks, and Disney sells Marvel merchandise at their theme parks.  

[scarynikki12]

I knew Wiki was leaving out stuff.  That fills in a lot of the gaps.

[quarks]

59 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I really wish we could get the details on Universals Film distribution rights for The Hulk. How many films does it involve? Im surprised they didnt have the same stipulations that FOX had. 

I don't think that the Universal contract/deal was for a specific number of films, but for the character. That's not unheard of - I believe that MGM started it with the Tarzan films back in the 1930s.  New Line ended up signing something similar with Saul Zaentz for the Lord of the Rings films.

Fox, unlike Universal, actually planned to film the X-Men - Bad Hat is headquartered at 20th Century Fox Studios - so I assume that was the starting point for the different stipulations. 

[Starfish35]

30 minutes ago, quarks said:

That means that Disney can film Hulk and Hulk characters all it want

Ok, so, that means we're back to Disney/MCU acting like Betty doesn't exist because...they just couldn't care less about the character?  I mean, I'm just trying to figure it out.  Betty's the only love interest character who's never even been mentioned since the movie she appeared in.  Even Jane got a couple of mentions in movies where Thor appeared and she didn't.

[quarks]

Just now, Starfish35 said:

Ok, so, that means we're back to Disney/MCU acting like Betty doesn't exist because...they just couldn't care less about the character?  I mean, I'm just trying to figure it out.  Betty's the only love interest character who's never even been mentioned since the movie she appeared in.  Even Jane got a couple of mentions in movies where Thor appeared and she didn't.

I don't think it's so much that they don't care about the character, as that they kinda want people to forget the earlier Hulk films, and pretend that the MCU just leapt into existence with Iron Man, and that the first real appearance of the Hulk was in The Avengers.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I just couldn't disagree more with the sentence that this season has had good writing for the supporting characters. "getting to stand next to Kara" is not the same as "good writing". Proper build up and character continuity and lack of plotholes and show don't tell are good writing. Something that the show violates a lot this season, particulary in the supporting characters' storylines. 

See, I think James' Guardian storyline was one massive lack of build up of continuity and a season long plot hole for his character.  It came out of freaking nowhere and made no honest sense for the man we'd been introduced to and he kept behaving in a manner completely alien to his previously established character (character as in moral beliefs) suddenly having no regard for his friend's safety while in the pursuit of supposedly his now revealed lifelong dream of no, not being an artist or an award-winning photography but some random dude on the street fighting crime even though there was no need shown for him to suit up.  

Alex had a plot line that comes just as much out of the blue and even seemingly contradicted what had been known about her though there was enough wiggle room in her backstory to make it work (though it required dropping into a black hole never to be spoken of her interactions with Maxwell Lord) and at least the actresses had enough chemistry to make it interesting.  Winn getting to make the suit and be Jame's wingman was a thankless task but it did allow him to shine since he had to stand up for himself (or die) due to Jame's blind obsessive, selfishness but him having to do so was beyond bizarre.   Winn dating Lyra was again entertaining since I thought he and Lyra had a fun chemistry but her very absence this season just doubles down on it all being pointless busywork. 

All of which is why I feel perfectly fine in saying that in season two the supporting characters got really crappy writing and that this year the writing serves them better.  But it's all opinion of course.  

[tofutan]

Quote

I agree. If I don't enjoy the story,  I'm not going to watch no matter what it looks like in the abstract.

And if a story is badly executed then I'm not gonna pretend it's well written even if I like the outcome as a concept. Just because the concept of "James is a sweet and supportive friend of Kara who never does anything wrong" or "Kara has a group of female friends rather than primarily male friends like in season 1" might be appealing as a concept to people doesn't mean that it can't be executed badly. And the show going "tell don't show" on us with Lena/James and Sam/Kara, were what the characters say directly contradicts what we as the audience SAW, is bad writing. 

For the record, I agree that a huge problem of the Guardian storyline was that it never climaxed. It felt like it should have climaxed as him either giving up on Guardian because he learned his lesson that it was a mistake or it should have climaxed with Kara admitting in a big moment that she was wrong about him and that it's a good thing that he's Guardian. 

The ending of the season felt like it sort of put in groundwork for the first option with the episode where James is upset that people are scared of Guardian, but then he clearly doesn't give it up. And he is still doing it this season even though we don't see as much of it. But he didn't get his proper moment of validation either. 

So don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming that the Guardian arc was super well written. But to me it still very much fulfills the requirement of "characters having a life of their own". And compared to s3, it was, you know, an actual ongoing story rather than just random scenes that go on in the background. 

IMO James still got meatier material in some of the Guardian episodes than he has gotten all this season so far, especially since imo the writers really screwed up James and Lena getting together. It just feels like they couldn't care less if they don't even bother putting in a minimum of romantic buildup. Again, maybe this will change, but we are a third of the season down and it's pretty frustrating to me that if there's supposed to be a story there that it still hasn't really started. 

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her very absence this season just doubles down on it all being pointless busywork. 

But to me that is more a sign of the bad writing of season 3 than a complaint against he bad writing of season 2. If s3 didn't want to continue the Winn/Lyra storyline all they would have had to do was to drop us a sentence that they broke up, it's not like there was no groundwork with the arguments they had the last time we saw her. Just like they still haven't told us what happened to Lillian Luthor after the s2 finale. Did she go to jail? Is the on the run? Was she exhonorated? To me those are all examples of the bad, careless, lack of attention to detail writing that s3 is riddled with and that shows up in the writing of all the supporting characters. 

And I don't see how "Alex was gay, but in self-denial" is a bigger out of the blue wtf than "Alex has always been obsessed with being a mom she just never mentioned it ever before". So it's not like s3 isn't doing their own share of "cheating" with characterization. 

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Winn getting to make the suit and be Jame's wingman was a thankless task 

As you said, it was a thankless task but he got screentime and got to express emotions. Which to me beats the thankless role he has this season where he is there for Kara and gets rewarded by Kara telling a character she had 2 conversations with that she never had a best friend, but she has best friends now in Lena and Sam. => two people she's constantly lying to because she doesn't care enough to share her secret with, while she couldn't wait to share it with her work friend Winn in season 1. It just feels like the show is trying to pull the wool over our eyes to FORCE this storyline to fit, but they don't actually want to put in the work to build it up. 

Which is exactly why s3 imo suffers from A LOT of bad writing, even if the general focus and themes of the season might resonate with you more. I just want better attention to detail writing and it bugs me that they are so bad at that in s3 when they used to be better at that in s1 and even in s2 as well. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by tofutan

[GHScorpiosRule]

8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

See, I think James' Guardian storyline was one massive lack of build up of continuity and a season long plot hole for his character.  It came out of freaking nowhere and made no honest sense for the man we'd been introduced to and he kept behaving in a manner completely alien to his previously established character (character as in moral beliefs) suddenly having no regard for his friend's safety while in the pursuit of supposedly his now revealed lifelong dream of no, not being an artist or an award-winning photography but some random dude on the street fighting crime even though there was no need shown for him to suit up.  

 

From his own mouth, it was because he was jealous that Clark got to be Superman, and he wasn't, and had to "be content" with being a side kick or whatever.

[tofutan]

Personally I didn't think that it was that out of left field that after things not working out with Kara he'd have a bit of a masculine identity crisis and I've read some decent meta about how James showed some undercover signs of being a bit vain in season 1 already. But I can see how that might not appeal to fans who had James in a different mental "box". Either way, I never saw it as an attack on James character but the writers trying to give him something that made it easier for them to write stories for him because they could use him to tell stories that could parallel problems in the other stories. I'll be very disappointed if they don't use James/Lena to at least tell a "should I tell her about being Guardian/at what point?/will she be cool with it?" story. But then again S3 has been pretty disappointing in a lot of ways already so they might not even bother with this really, really obvious story potential. 

Edited January 12, 2018 by tofutan

[Delphi]

FAVORITE DC LIVE-ACTION SHOW(S) - Legends of Tomorrow, Arrow.

FAVORITE DC ANIMATED SHOW(S) - Young Justice, Batman Beyond.

FAVORITE MARVEL LIVE-ACTION SHOW(S) - Jessica Jones,  followed by Runways ( @Starfish35 you must check it out, I think you'd love it!)

FAVORITE MARVEL ANIMATED SHOW(S) - ....Pass.

FAVORITE COMICS SHOW(S) NOT IN ANY OF THE ABOVE CATEGORIES - Lucifer

FAVORITE TV BATMAN/BRUCE WAYNE - Kevin Conroy followed by young David on Gotham. 

FAVORITE TV CLARK KENT/SUPERMAN - Live action, whoever is playing him on Supergirl.  Would be Dean but I can't stand his politics. 

FAVORITE DCTV CHARACTER(S) - Felicity, Nyssa, Thea Queen and Leo Snart

FAVORITE MARVEL TV CHARACTER(S) - Jessica Jones

FAVORITE PAIRING(S)

Felicity/Oliver,  Arrow

Sara/Nyssa, Arrow

Ray/Leo,  Lot

Selina/Bruce, Gotham

NEW COMICS SHOW YOU'RE MOST LOOKING FORWARD TO IN 2018 - meh.  

[tv echo]

Wonder Woman won Best Action Movie at the Critics' Choice Awards last night. (The other nominees in this category were Baby Driver,  Logan, Thor: Ragnarok, and War for the Planet of the Apes.)

Also, Gal Gadot received the #SeeHer Award:
http://deadline.com/2018/01/critics-choice-awards-2018-winners-list-live-blog-1202241352/

Quote

5:50 PM: Patty Jenkins is now onstage presenting Gal Gadot with the #SeeHer award. (Wonder Woman, by the way, is up for three awards tonight, including Best Action Movie.) The award is from the Association of National Advertisers and The CW Network, and “recognizes a woman who embodies the values set forth by the #SeeHer movement — to push boundaries on changing stereotypes and recognize the importance of accurately portraying women across the entertainment landscape.”

5:54 PM: Gal Gadot gets a standing ovation after Jenkins’ intro.
*  *  *
5:59 PM: Gadot related an anecdote from Jenkins about a 3-year-old boy who saw Wonder Woman and shouted during the end credits, “When I grow up, I want to be a woman!” ….. More Gadot: “I want to share this award with all the women and men who stand for what is right, stand with those who can’t speak for themselves. … I will never be silenced. We will continue to make strides toward equality.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/films/2018/01/12/gal-gadot-james-franco-win-critics-choice-awards-one-shows/

Quote

Gal Gadot used her platform at last night's Critics' Choice Awards to give an impassioned speech on the importance of female-led films, while fellow winner James Franco stayed home following accusations of sexually inappropriate behaviour.

Gadot, who helped steer Wonder Woman to becoming one of the most successful films of 2017, collected the second annual #SeeHer Award at the ceremony, which are intended to celebrate those who "recognize the importance of accurately portraying women across the entertainment landscape."

Taking to the stage after being introduced by her Wonder Woman director Patty Jenkins, Gadot said: "I want to share this award with all the women and men who stand for what's right, standing for those who can't stand or speak for themselves. My promise and my commitment to all of you is that I will never be silenced. And we will continue to band together to make strides uniting for equality."

Gadot also referenced the significance in the fact that the top three highest-grossing films of 2017 at the US box office (Star Wars: The Last Jedi, Beauty and the Beast and Wonder Woman) were all led by women.

"When I started acting, there were very few female-led movies and even fewer female directors," Gadot explained. "This year, three of the top-grossing films were female led and one of them was directed by my wonderful Patty Jenkins.
*  *  *
"There were eight other films in [the] top 100 which were directed by females. So although this is progress, there's still a long way to go," she continued. "It's not only our job to entertain, but our duty to inspire and educate for love and respect."

For full winners list, read -- http://ew.com/awards/2018/01/11/critics-choice-awards-winners-2018-full-list/

Edited January 12, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

The Flash To Introduce Green Arrow Comics Villain Hyrax
By Rose Moore  01.10.2018
https://screenrant.com/flash-tv-show-comics-villain-hyrax/

Quote

The Flash TV show will introduce the Green Arrow comics villain Hyrax something following its return from the winter break. The Flash returns to The CW next week, after a midseason break that ended on a cliffhanger: Barry Allen’s (Grant Gustin) arrest! The speedster’s civilian alter-ego was framed for murder in the midseason finale, as part of a long game played by the big bad of season four, The Thinker (Neil Sandilands).
*  *  *
Hyrax, aka Veronica Dale, will be appearing at some point in the second half of season four, That Hashtag Show reveals. The character breakdown describes her as a domestic terrorists with an evil plan that Team Flash will presumably have to thwart:

[VERONICA DALE] Mid 20s-30s. Female, an Environmental Activist (back when she was still sane) turned Animal Liberator turned Domestic Terrorist, who’s the leader of the Eden Corps — a cult-like organization that proposes to turn back the clock to a pre-industrial age — and if millions of innocent people have to die in the process, well, that’s just tough…

CW Seed’s Animated ‘Constantine’ Series Aims to Be Darker Than the Live-Action Show
BY DAVE TRUMBORE      JANUARY 10, 2018
http://collider.com/constantine-animated-series-details-peter-girardi/

Quote

At the panel for Blue Ribbon Content during the ongoing TCA press tour, Executive Vice President Peter Girardi weighed in on the strategy regarding CW Seed’s animated Arrowverse series. Blue Ribbon Content is the digital series production arm of Warner Bros. Television Group and they have produced the animated digital series Vixen, Freedom Fighters: The Ray, and Constantine.
*  *  *
What’s the strategy for The Ray and Constantine? We’ve seen them introduced in live-action in the Arrowverse, but is the hope to continue with those live-action crossovers or create an animated universe that’s separate from the Arrowverse?
Peter Girardi: That’s yet to be determined. The first one we did was Vixen. And Vixen started out as animated. And I think we were also happy when it did migrate into the Arrowverse, but it started out as animated first. Since then, we’ve figured out a little more of a strategy around it where we worked very closely with Greg [Berlanti] and Marc Guggenheim and the team there to figure out what characters are going to work, what’s in [their] future plans, what can we do.

Also, with animation, the first thing you ask is, Why does this need to be animated? So we try to up the scale, and the consequences, and the VFX, and the set pieces in animation because, as we call it in the world of animation, pencil power. Just pencil power, it’s people drawing.

Moving forward, Constantine was a great example as well because the Constantine that we’re doing … it’s Constantine, if you’re familiar with the character. It’s Constantine from the Vertigo comic; it’s dark. Darker than the show.

Is the audience a little older than maybe Vixen’s audience might have been?
Girardi: Certainly for Constantine. Clearly, it should be, responsible parents. [laughs]

Edited January 12, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Another article on this topic - and two TV writers' reactions to this article (the below tweets were retweeted by Arrow writer, Beth Schwartz)..

.#MeToo's Impact on Hollywood Writers Rooms: "Maybe That's a Joke I Can't Say"
1/11/2018 by Michael O'Connell
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/metoos-impact-hollywood-writers-rooms-maybe-a-joke-i-cant-say-1073213

Quote

Writers rooms, Hollywood's corporate-sanctioned haven for sex talk and self-indulgent stories about horrible dates, are suffering from some unexpected growing pains. The era of #MeToo and Time's Up hasn't just shifted daily conversations, it stands to change their tone forever as many writers second-guess their candor and showrunners strive to foster healthy environments that don't forsake creativity.

"The room has always been, theoretically, a safe space for people to discuss their most twisted thoughts," says Liz Meriwether, creator of Fox's New Girl. "This is a place where you're supposed to be able to occasionally cross a line or two, if it's done with respect, but now you think to yourself, 'Maybe that's a joke that I can't say.' "

Questions over where the line is dog some writers, perhaps because it's so different from room to room. One, staffed on an upcoming comedic streaming series, cites frequent breaks to allow writers to recover from "triggering conversations" — often discussions about the industrywide harassment and assault narratives and the personal stories that come out of it. Meanwhile, a network sitcom veteran sums up the post-Weinstein mood as "business as usual." In both rooms, however, the writers acknowledge a sense that their colleagues are giving more thought before sharing a story (just not necessarily keeping it to themselves).

This is not the first time that private TV writers room discussions have spurred public debate. Several scribes who spoke for this story recall the 2004 Friends lawsuit in which a former writers assistant sued producers over, among other things, vulgar dialogue she heard in the room. The case was dismissed by the California Supreme Court in 2006, citing the fact that the writers room was a creative workplace. Industry response was decidedly different then. One writer, who took a new job that year, says she was required to sign a document affirming that she acknowledged and "welcomed" offensive subjects and discussions as vital to the creative process. While that pressure is rarely put in writing, it can be pervasive, particularly for women in male-dominated rooms. "Some women overcompensate and try to be more of a dude than all of the dudes. Some just shut down. Either way, it doesn't make for the best work," notes one experienced female showrunner.

"There's an old regime of writers that operates under an archaic Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus way of thinking," says SMILF creator and star Frankie Shaw. The first-time showrunner, who staffed a diverse room, says it's something she tried to weed out from the start, to avoid the kind of microaggressions now raising antennae. But for the rooms still run by "older white men," she has hope: "We can't always blame people for believing what they're taught. There's space to let people learn."

FYI: David Slack is a TV writer (MacGyver, Person of Interest, Teen Titans, Law & Order). Joe Henderson is Lucifer's showrunner.

Edited January 12, 2018 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

[Velocity23]

[statsgirl]

9 hours ago, tv echo said:

FYI: David Slack is a TV writer (MacGyver, Person of Interest, Teen Titans, Law & Order). Joe Henderson is Lucifer's showrunner.

Awesome of them!

As much as I like the fact that the crossover was a 3 hour-long single movie this season, I refuse to buy the Flash and Supergirl DVDs for it.

11 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

From his own mouth, it was because he was jealous that Clark got to be Superman, and he wasn't, and had to "be content" with being a side kick or whatever.

James said that he wanted to be a fighter because people who weren't fighters didn't matter.  This view was reinforced by Kara when she found out what he was doing when she said that only alien fighters like her and Mon El mattered and James should be content to sit on the sidelines.  Up until then, James had seemed content with his life

It's an interesting concept, that you have to fit into a special slot in order to matter in this world.  If you don't, you're as nothing.  Unless James is an alien fighter, he doesn't count.  It's a problem that the all the Arrowverse shows have, that only the mask&costume characters count, although less so on LoT and Arrow other than in the p.r.

It's a feeling that translates to the real world: unless  you're white you don't count; unless you have a penis you don't count.  It's something that would have been worth spending more time exploring, do you accept the limitations forced on you by others, or do you fight them?  The show should have spent more time on it and done it justice.

[Primal Slayer]

Sarah Douglas who played Ursa in the original Superman movies is playing the mysterious Kryptonian woman connected to Reign.

[Primal Slayer]

LoT 3x10 episode spoiled on reddit

 

 

Supergirl 3x11 trailer leaked

Edited January 13, 2018 by Primal Slayer

[ruby24]

Are they filming in Vancouver on Monday? MLK Day isn't a holiday in Canada, but do the American shows get the day off filming?

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

 

James said that he wanted to be a fighter because people who weren't fighters didn't matter.  This view was reinforced by Kara when she found out what he was doing when she said that only alien fighters like her and Mon El mattered and James should be content to sit on the sidelines.  Up until then, James had seemed content with his life

It's an interesting concept, that you have to fit into a special slot in order to matter in this world.  If you don't, you're as nothing.  Unless James is an alien fighter, he doesn't count.  It's a problem that the all the Arrowverse shows have, that only the mask&costume characters count, although less so on LoT and Arrow other than in the p.r.

It's a feeling that translates to the real world: unless  you're white you don't count; unless you have a penis you don't count.  It's something that would have been worth spending more time exploring, do you accept the limitations forced on you by others, or do you fight them?  The show should have spent more time on it and done it justice.

3

I recall Kara being kind of a dick after she found out he was out there fighting. basically saying only super powered people should be doing it, though I took it as in the context of in National City the superpowered people (plus the police and DEO) had it covered so it was foolish for him to put himself needlessly at risk, but I never understood where his initial inferiority complex came from and why suddenly all his photos capturing intense moments of truth suddenly didn't matter.  Especially since it took an artisitc eye combined with a heroe's heart to get the shots, something even fewer people could do than just muscle up and knock heads together.  Not to mention that was what had Kara crushing on him in the first place.  The Guardian arc totally came off to me as James getting dumped and feeling like it was a shot at his masculinity so he wanted to prove his manhood even though the city didn't actually need him.  

I'm not sure I agree that in show it sent that message to him, the part about only a few in special slots really counting.  Outside of the show, sure, since that's the message the writers seemed to send by putting him in a mask, but otherwise his motivations seemed just James deciding he wanted a different kind of attention than what he already had and so he rejected what already brought him fame and praise because he was suddenly revealed as envious of Superman the whole time.   (It's one thing to say to yourself, gosh, I wish I could be like Superman, and another to actually be upset you can't.  DUDE'S an ALIEN!!!  No, you can't fly or lift mountains.)

You can probably tell I was very disappointed in James and the writers last year who thought he had to be a fighter to be a hero.  Was also disappointed in Kara too for how random and flighty her feelings ended up being in regards James but that's a different topic.  

Yeah, there were many ways they could have done the Guardian arc justice but boy oh boy we didn't get that.  I think the only real pleasure I derived is it allowed James to be the first hero shown fighting the Nazis in the crossover.  Would have been nicer if they'd not killed him in the opening act but for once I'd actually been happy to see Guardian punching people.  

[tofutan]

I agree that those interesting themes were not touch upon enough and the story lacked a proper big emotional resolution. But to me they at least got close to brushing up on interesting issues, as in those episode where Kara finds out the truth and they clash about it. 

IMO so far s3 hasn't really done anything like that, it's even worse so far in bringing up potential, such as James sitting in board meeting with the most powerful people of the city and then not doing anything with it and it's not like s3 either returned to doing meaningful photography or delving into something new, like James being a powerhouse in the city. 

I thought James being the first and one of like 2 people we know who got murdered by nazis was insulting to all hell. 

That new Supergirl trailer looks a bit bland to me. Too many dark and samey looking locations. I had hoped the trailed for this team up would instead play up the fun factor. It seems like we'll have Reign battles non-ship for 3 episodes in a row. 

[tv echo]

Ask Ausiello: Spoilers on Big Little Lies, Riverdale, Good Doctor, Mrs. Maisel, Grey's, Big Bang, Originals and More
By Michael Ausiello / January 12 2018
http://tvline.com/2018/01/12/big-little-lies-season-2-spoilers-bonnie-family/

Quote

Question: Still reeling from James and Lena’s kiss on Supergirl. What can you tell me?! –Charlotte
Ausiello: I can’t tell you much, Charlotte, but I’ll say that Monday’s episode wastes no time getting to bottom of what happened between Kara’s best friend and ex during the holidays. Can they blame it on the mistletoe, or are there real feelings there? You’ll have to watch and see!
*  *  *
♦ I’m cooking up a blind item involving an extremely unlikely pregnancy on a show I am obsessed with. Stay tuned…

[tinnefoil]

Which shows is he obsessed with? 

[Miss Dee]

My money's on Smurfette.

[Primal Slayer]

I wonder why Keiynan, Echo and David weren't invited to join The Many Shades of Heroism: DC Heroes Through the African-American Lens panel for the DC event today. 

Along with Maisie and Franz.

[Primal Slayer]

I believe it was discussed here before how The Flash doesn't really bring up Iris and fam being black, but Candice was just asked the question: she and Jesse have discussed it but The Flash is about Barrys story. She'd like to explore Barry growing up in a black family. They would need black writers and directors to explore that.

Unfortunately the panel went over so that was the only question asked from the audience.

Geoff Johns is the one who recommend that Arrow adapt Mister Terrific when they were looking for a gay character to bring into the show.

Of course during the Wonder Women panel, there was a question about: Will we see more female team up episodes and the EP had to say "yes and you can see more every week on Supergirl."

Edited January 13, 2018 by Primal Slayer

[Delphi]

15 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Sarah Douglas who played Ursa in the original Superman movies is playing the mysterious Kryptonian woman connected to Reign.

For a long dead, blown up planet there are a hell of a lot kryptonians running around. 

[tv echo]

From the DC in D.C. event...

 

Edited January 13, 2018 by tv echo