Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Morrigan2575]

I'm surprised they can remove his name from the credits. I did not see that coming. I knew (Suspected) they were waiting for the crossover to announce his termination but, I didn't think they could actually remove his name from the credits entirely, especially if he had a created by credit.

[JJ928]

I'm sure AK is walking away with a nice big paycheck, totally undeserved.

[lemotomato]

Are there show-only characters he created? I wonder if DC had power to smooth over any legal roadblocks that might have prevented a clean break.

[Velocity23]

2 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Are there show-only characters he created? I wonder if DC had power to smooth over any legal roadblocks that might have prevented a clean break.

Diggle, Alex, Sara are all possibilities

[KenyaJ]

4 hours ago, bijoux said:

What is Leo looking for on this earth when his Ray goes back to Earth X?

4 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I think TPTB really wanted to end on the visual of both ships getting married at the same time - that  shot of the kisses - it’s the kind of schmaltzy love conquers all kind of thing that they would want at the end of a crossover about Nazis, and it’s a nice callback to the very first crossover when Oliver told Barry that guys like them don’t get the girl. 

Just like most things with these shows, the logic and optics are swept aside in order to get a cool shot. 

Yep. There was so little time at the end of the episode that I started thinking (and hoping) that the Olicity marriage spoiler might be wrong and maybe they would just get engaged. Seeing as how they are having a wedding or wedding reception this week, I wish they would have done it that way. I made my peace with the double wedding back when the spoilers came out, but it's not the way I would have written it.

[popgoesculture]

I'm glad they fired Kreisberg, but I hope that the entire culture of the DC shows change as a result. Based on the writing as well as the behind scenes stuff, it's clear that there needs to be a continued investigation about who knew what. I hope that if someone covered for him, they're also relieved of their position. And frankly, a more diverse writing and production staff would be great, and probably foster a more inclusive environment.

Side note: can I just say that one of the things that irritated me most about the crossover was this continual insistence that the strong protect the weak, which is what the shows claim wasn't happening on Earth X and was the heroes (Oliver and Kara's) rebuttal to their evil counterpart. The whole horrible point of Nazism is that it decides those who are different ARE weak and lesser, not even human. The show seemed to ignore this, and instead kind of tacitly agreed that those targeted by the Nazis are weaker somehow and needed to be protected. They need allies, most definitely, but being Jewish or LGBTQ or a different race isn't a weakness, show. Yes, superheroes should protect civilians, but that doesn't mean the civilians are weak either. 

It was such a muddled message, particularly when our understanding of fascism is more important than ever, that it annoyed me. The heroes are only heroes in the DC world because they have different abilities/experiences/etc. Their differences also make them heroes. 

[Starfish35]

8 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Are there show-only characters he created? I wonder if DC had power to smooth over any legal roadblocks that might have prevented a clean break.

What does that mean for characters he created? Would they be written out?

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

What does that mean for characters he created? Would they be written out?

I doubt it. He just gets money and credit for them. 

[Starfish35]

No, I mean, if they're removing his credits, does that mean they're also removing his characters? 

I don't know anything about how these things work - sorry. :(

[statsgirl]

At this point, I'd think the characters are too useful to remove.  He'll live well off the royalties and his severance cheque.

I'm surprised that they actually fired him rather than just giving him another position.  (Too long with the Catholic Church, I guess.)  With Berlanti stepping in to assume additional duties, it looks like they're serious about cleaning shop.

Catching up on the crossover discussion:

On 11/28/2017 at 2:54 AM, tofutan said:

If Overgirl landed in naziland, why would she still have a sister? Wouldn't it be more logical if she was raised by the state? I guess I can kinda buy that Dark Oliver and Dark Tommy ended up as Nazis and Alex didn't because she is gay?

Kara is blonde and blue-eyed, the perfect Aryan as Quentin-X said.  A prize specimen like that, even before they discovered her powers, would be raised by a high-ranking member of the Nazi party, not put into an orphanage.

20 hours ago, leopardprint said:

Apparently, bridesmaid is just a courtesy title on Earth-1, they don't even have to attend the wedding since Felicity decided to go the day before. 

 

18 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

When Felicity asked if "we" were going to Barry's wedding, I always assumed the question was really are "you" coming with me? Lol.  

Knowing how long it takes to select and alter a bridesmaid's dress, no question that Iris knew that Felicity was coming.  Especially since Felicity came and provided the boas for Iris' bachelor party.

On the other hand, I'd be shocked if Oliver Queen doesn't own his own tux for these occasions so he could have been a last minute addition.

14 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Frankly, I found Thawne's statement that he'd never heard of Felicity more unnerving than anything.

It doesn't make sense, but what about Thawne does?  In season 1 he recited  her degrees and awards and said that he paid attention to anyone as smart as her.

[Morrigan2575]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

No, I mean, if they're removing his credits, does that mean they're also removing his characters? 

I don't know anything about how these things work - sorry. :(

Again. I doubt it. Removing his credits doesn't mean they'll write out his characters especially ones that are major parts of the shows.

He gets credit and money for creating them, he will still get paid for their appearances beyond that I seriously doubt they're killing off Alex, Diggle or Sara.

[Miss Dee]

2 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

Loved the crossover. Olicity finally resolved all their issues and were married.  I could/might quit the DC universe and be happy. 

I am now sure that I made the right decision in quitting Supergirl and the Flash. I am considering going back to LOT because of Mick. 

Honestly? Mick's a damned good reason to watch. I am always hearing viewers comment on how they wouldn't have believed he'd be one of their favourite characters when they first saw him on The Flash.

[Starfish35]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Again. I doubt it. Removing his credits doesn't mean they'll write out his characters especially ones that are major parts of the shows.

He gets credit and money for creating them, he will still get paid for their appearances beyond that I seriously doubt they're killing off Alex, Diggle or Sara.

Ok sorry.  I was confused about you saying he gets credit when they said they were removing his credits.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

Side note: can I just say that one of the things that irritated me most about the crossover was this continual insistence that the strong protect the weak, which is what the shows claim wasn't happening on Earth X and was the heroes (Oliver and Kara's) rebuttal to their evil counterpart. The whole horrible point of Nazism is that it decides those who are different ARE weak and lesser, not even human. The show seemed to ignore this, and instead kind of tacitly agreed that those targeted by the Nazis are weaker somehow and needed to be protected. They need allies, most definitely, but being Jewish or LGBTQ or a different race isn't a weakness, show. Yes, superheroes should protect civilians, but that doesn't mean the civilians are weak either. 

I didn't take that it that way at all.

I think it wasn't Oliver telling X Felicity she was weak but that she was strong and gave her the help she needed to continue protecting those that could not protect themselves because they were being subjugated and murdered by the EX Nazis. IMO Oliver saw her as incredibly strong for going against the Nazis to her own detriment for others.  It could have used different words but I think that was the message. Not that those being subjugated were weak.

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It doesn't make sense, but what about Thawne does?  In season 1 he recited  her degrees and awards and said that he paid attention to anyone as smart as her.

And I don't think he or the show forgot what he said. I think he was taunting/lying to her.

[leopardprint]

Can "my son" now be retired in honor of Stein? 

[Trini]

(from the crossover thread)

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not talking about ratings. I'm talking about storytelling. Also, if Arrow fails in s1 then the Flash and LoT never see the light of day. You're welcome.

Arrow can only take partial credit, at most, for The Flash, when it was much more successful from the start (ratings, awards, etc.). He's one of DC's A-List characters, I could see them still doing the pilot if Arrow had been cancelled. Maybe after WB saw the success of Agents of SHIELD or Gotham.

[Velocity23]

1 minute ago, Trini said:

(from the crossover thread)

Arrow can only take partial credit, at most, for The Flash, when it was much more successful from the start (ratings, awards, etc.). He's one of DC's A-List characters, I could see them still doing the pilot if Arrow had been cancelled. Maybe after WB saw the success of Agents of SHIELD or Gotham.

Agents of Shield imploded after premiering high. Also Gotham premiere the same year as Flash so neither of them were the reason for Flash being introduced. It was all about Arrow setting the tone and the other show following. Even DC/WB did a joint panel at SDCC with Arrow, Gotham, Flash and Constantine and Stephen Amell was basically the face of the panel. 

[Delphi]

33 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Again. I doubt it. Removing his credits doesn't mean they'll write out his characters especially ones that are major parts of the shows.

He gets credit and money for creating them, he will still get paid for their appearances beyond that I seriously doubt they're killing off Alex, Diggle or Sara.

Honestly,  I'm not so sure he even gets paid for it.   Except for a small percentage of merchandising sales. 

 

http://thrillbent.com/blog/how-dc-contracts-work/

[Trini]

10 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Agents of Shield imploded after premiering high. Also Gotham premiere the same year as Flash so neither of them were the reason for Flash being introduced. It was all about Arrow setting the tone and the other show following. Even DC/WB did a joint panel at SDCC with Arrow, Gotham, Flash and Constantine and Stephen Amell was basically the face of the panel. 

I was speculating. I was saying that DC/WB could have tried another Flash show without Arrow.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I think it wasn't Oliver telling X Felicity she was weak but that she was strong and gave her the help she needed to continue protecting those that could not protect themselves

I agree. He may have rescued her in the moment, as most of the heroes got rescued at some point during the crossover, but he clearly put on the "protector" side. And overall, I think "weak" in this context was supposed to mean more "helpless". Like the civilians in the final fight. Maybe they weren`t weak but, understandably, they ran screaming from Nazis with machine guns while the heroes ran at them. Oliver handed X-Felicity the gun so to me he marked her as hero.

Also agree that making X-Lance the Fuhrer would have worked better. In the end, it seemed to be Oliver, just for the gimmick of trying to infiltrate that base in episode 3. Which could have been achieved had he been any high-ranking military official. X-Lance came off as the biggest believer in the "cause". 

Since Overgirl wasn`t the leader, inexplicably, because going by the mantra, she would be seen as the most God-like, perfect being. Her pontificating to Kara how weak and inferior humans are seemed a bit illogical to me. She married one, not even one with powers. She accepted him as leader and seemed to even love him. Why? If you go by Nazi logic, she would be a lot more perfect than him so she`d be looking down on him. 

Overall, I thought the crossover worked fine. Lots of character moments. Also lots of relationship drama where thankfully, I`m invested in the relationships. 

I believe the double wedding would have worked better if Felicity had asked earlier, before WestAllen started their ceremony. She suggested Diggle so when he arrived and things were explained to him, she could have gotten spur of the moment and blurted out "and marry us, too". Then each couple can have their vows and still be married in one fell swoop. IMO that was a writing misstep.      

Everything to do with Stein`s death was a legitimately sad moment. That hurt. 

Oh, and Barry once again letting his fully powered, extremely dangerous enemies go. There is not killing and there is being stupidly responsible for mucho collateral death in the future. To be honest, I find that unheroic.  

[Velocity23]

7 minutes ago, Trini said:

I was speculating. I was saying that DC/WB could have tried another Flash show without Arrow.

Not really. The only reason Berlanti even made Arrow is to make Flash. For that to happen Arrow had to be sucessful enough to warrant a spin-off. One also has to remember that at that time the CW was not really known to be appealing to the male audience.

[Trini]

So with Kreisberg out, ... who's got the dirt on Guggenheim?

[GHScorpiosRule]

One of the things I loved about the crossover (and I enjoyed all four episodes), was seeing the return of the Badass/Kickass Iris of Season one. And I loved Felicity's Diehard reference she made to Iris, calling her "McLane" when Iris said they could crawl through the vents to release Cisco and the others.

[BunsenBurner]

3 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

One of the things I loved about the crossover (and I enjoyed all four episodes), was seeing the return of the Badass/Kickass Iris of Season one. And I loved Felicity's Diehard reference she made to Iris, calling her "McLane" when Iris said they could crawl through the vents to release Cisco and the others.

I was just going to bring this up!! 

 

Also liked FO saying. “take that you mother...”

Watched it a 2nd time with my brother. Had to rewind the wedding vows of Barry. He shook his head no for almost the entirety of his vows. Not good GG. 

[Trini]

10 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Not really. The only reason Berlanti even made Arrow is to make Flash. For that to happen Arrow had to be sucessful enough to warrant a spin-off. One also has to remember that at that time the CW was not really known to be appealing to the male audience.

Ah, that's right. So Arrow still owes something to The Flash. Or at least they're even now.

[Velocity23]

6 minutes ago, Trini said:

Ah, that's right. So Arrow still owes something to The Flash. Or at least they're even now.

nah Arrow is the reason the whole Arrowverse exist. They established the show as a sucess on their own. And their success managed to convince the people in charge that the climate is right for a superpower hero show but they made sure to appeal it to families also. Giving them a broader audience. 

[Miss Dee]

I honestly couldn't care less. I'm grateful they all exist, because I'd never been introduced to Mick Rory and Dominic Purcell's acting talents without them. What percentage of credit should go to which show is extremely uninteresting to me.

[Trini]

3 minutes ago, Miss Dee said:

I honestly couldn't care less. I'm grateful they all exist, because I'd never been introduced to Mick Rory and Dominic Purcell's acting talents without them. What percentage of credit should go to which show is extremely uninteresting to me.

Oh, me either. But it keeps getting brought up that Flash "owes" Arrow. If there was anything owed, it's been paid back multiple times.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

nah Arrow is the reason the whole Arrowverse exist. They established the show as a sucess on their own. And their success managed to convince the people in charge that the climate is right for a superpower hero show but they made sure to appeal it to families also. Giving them a broader audience. 

Yup. And Berlanti may have always wanted Flash but he sure had to build Arrow to get to Flash. Like if he was so sure that the Flash would fly why not make that the starting point?

[Aeryn13]

I think Warner is probably happy that DCTV works as well as it does compared to their movie-verse.

[Morrigan2575]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yup. And Berlanti may have always wanted Flash but he sure had to build Arrow to get to Flash. Like if he was so sure that the Flash would fly why not make that the starting point?

DC wouldn't give him Flash to begin with. They also wouldn't give him Batman so Berlanti got Green Arrow. If Arrow failed, Flash, LoT, Supergirl, Black Lightning and, quite possibly the rest of DCTV wouldn't have been given a shot.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Trini]

7 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

...  If Arrow failed, Flash, LoT, Supergirl, Black Lightning and, quite the rest of DCTV wouldn't have been given a shot.

Maybe. They definitely would have tried another DC pilot, I think. Especially with all the other comic-inspired shows being developed aired in recent years.

[Velocity23]

[KenyaJ]

54 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

One of the things I loved about the crossover (and I enjoyed all four episodes), was seeing the return of the Badass/Kickass Iris of Season one. And I loved Felicity's Diehard reference she made to Iris, calling her "McLane" when Iris said they could crawl through the vents to release Cisco and the others.

And I loved the celebratory gun bump. Iris is welcome to come visit Star City any time she wants. She and Felicity are delightful together.

[InsertWordHere]

55 minutes ago, Trini said:

So with Kreisberg out, ... who's got the dirt on Guggenheim?

I know you're joking, but unless there's been actual claims made against him and not just against his writing and ideas, I'd hate to use the current environment to just oust people whose showrunning we dislike. That seems like it would turn bad very quickly.

Again, unless you've heard something about Guggenheim that I haven't, I admittedly haven't been visiting the DCTV forums very often lately. 

[Starfish35]

Speaking of Lord Mesa, I also enjoyed this one - one of the best moments from the first night of the crossover. :)

[tv echo]

6 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

I think TPTB really wanted to end on the visual of both ships getting married at the same time - that  shot of the kisses - it’s the kind of schmaltzy love conquers all kind of thing that they would want at the end of a crossover about Nazis, and it’s a nice callback to the very first crossover when Oliver told Barry that guys like them don’t get the girl. 

Also, the crossover ended with two weddings that never would've been allowed under a Nazi regime - one interracial couple, and the other couple made up of a Jewish person and a non-Jewish person

Edited November 29, 2017 by tv echo

[Velocity23]

Quote

Kreisberg was hand-picked to oversee Berlanti's growing DC universe at The CW. Kreisberg is said to have created a "toxic" work environment with many insiders fearing retaliation if they filed a complaint against him. (He also has routinely fired the writing staff from The Flash every season and this year had trouble staffing the show and challenges hiring women, sources say.)

Sources note that Warners recently held its annual sexual harassment seminar with the L.A.-based Arrowwriting and producing team that resulted in multiple questions about what would happen if complaints were filed and the subject wasn't fired. One source notes that it became clear after the suspension that those questions were directed toward Kreisberg, who co-ran Arrow before seguing to The Flash and later, Supergirl.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/live-feed/supergirl-flash-showrunner-andrew-kreisberg-fired-sexual-harassment-claims-1057390

So Kreisberg was the one doing the mass firing on the Flash writing team?

[Morrigan2575]

That makes it sound like AJK was officially or unofficially a step up from MG even though to all appearances they were on the same level (each held show runner roles on 2 of the 4 current shows).

Curious

[way2interested]

Just now, Morrigan2575 said:

That makes it sound like AJK was officially or unofficially a step up from MG even though to all appearances they were on the same level (each held show runner roles on 2 of the 4 current shows).

Curious

I was already kind of figuring that since AK got to go (or maybe was pushed to go? idk) to Flash and then co-run a CBS show, while MG got LoT a year later and worked on a bunch of independent stuff stuff instead (along with still doing Arrow).

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, way2interested said:

I was already kind of figuring that since AK got to go (or maybe was pushed to go? idk) to Flash and then co-run a CBS show, while MG got LoT a year later and worked on a bunch of independent stuff stuff instead (along with still doing Arrow).

I guess I never really gave it too much thought. It does make sense, AJK did get the "prize" of Flash and then later a CBS show (Supergirl). Plus Berlanti and AJK did write/Produce the Oscars that one year. 

It's possible that even if they were "equal" title wise, AJK was more favored or had more weight than MG.

Edited November 29, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Miss Dee]

21 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Also, the crossover ended with two weddings that never would've been allowed under a Nazi regime - one interracial couple, and the other couple made up of a Jewish person and a non-Jewish person

Of all the things I've read today, this is the first time I've seen this pointed out. I didn't see it until now. How delightful. Sincerely, thank you.

[tv echo]

I think that maybe they made a misstep in their characterization of Earth-X Oliver. He was too much like the dark S1 Oliver. I guess they were going for a version of Oliver who lost his humanity. But he ended up being too similar to the broody Oliver that we're used to seeing on Arrow.

So perhaps they should've gone in a different direction and had Earth-X Oliver be an arrogant, smooth-talking, charismatic, cult leader type, who smiles a lot but has an evil heart. Someone who could give speeches to move large crowds to action. Maybe more of a Robert Queen type?*

(* IIRC, Jamey Sheridan played the Devil in that Stephen King miniseries, 'The Stand.')

That said, I still think that Oliver did a great acting job throughout the four-hour crossover.

Edited November 29, 2017 by tv echo

[JJ928]

Which is odd since MG & GB have worked together longer & on more projects (acc to imdb). 

[catrox14]

[InsertWordHere]

1 minute ago, tv echo said:

I think that maybe they made a misstep in their characterization of Earth-X Oliver. He was too much like the dark S1 Oliver. Maybe they were going for a version of Oliver who lost his humanity. But he ended up being too similar to the broody Oliver that we're used to seeing on Arrow.

I didn't find him very much like the Hood, I thought he was more similar to what Oliver would have been without the trial by fire that was the island (unless he also went to the island?), a guy who king of his own world but in this reality also inexplicably skilled with a bow. It was probably the voice SA used for him, which I thought sounded like his pretend-to-be Ollie voice if that makes any sense. I do think it could have been done better. Neither of the evil gangbangers worked for me.  

[statsgirl]

I had the impression that AJK had higher standing than MB.  Not everyone is cut out to be a good boss, maybe Berlanti thought that AJK was better at it.

Quote

Kreisberg was hand-picked to oversee Berlanti's growing DC universe at The CW. Kreisberg is said to have created a "toxic" work environment with many insiders fearing retaliation if they filed a complaint against him. (He also has routinely fired the writing staff from The Flash every season and this year had trouble staffing the show and challenges hiring women, sources say.)

Sources note that Warners recently held its annual sexual harassment seminar with the L.A.-based Arrow writing and producing team that resulted in multiple questions about what would happen if complaints were filed and the subject wasn't fired. One source notes that it became clear after the suspension that those questions were directed toward Kreisberg, who co-ran Arrow before seguing to The Flash and later, Supergirl.

Not a good boss.  It's interesting that he had trouble staffing the Flash, looks like with men too.  That's really a toxic environment.  And they were worried he would retaliate if they complained.

19 minutes ago, tv echo said:

So perhaps they should've gone in a different direction and had Earth-X Oliver be an arrogant, smooth-talking, charismatic, cult leader type, who smiles a lot but has an evil heart. Someone who could give speeches to move large crowds to action. Maybe more of a Robert Queen type?

It would have to be someone uncaring and ruthless enough to kill Earth 1 Kara for Overgirl and then invade Earth1 and enslave it, continuing to monologue about how weak Earth 1 people are.  That's more Malcolm Merlyn than Robert Queen.  With Tommy as Prometheus, it might have been interesting to see Oliver as Malcolm.

[tv echo]

I may re-watch the entire crossover tonight. Despite some flaws, I loved it all - not just for the great Olicity scenes, but the fight scenes kept me glued to the screen, the Stein/Jax storyline moved me to tears ("Thank you, Jefferson, for the adventure of a lifetime."), the Kara/Alex sisterly bond touched me, XFelicity's appearance surprised me (and I was thoroughly spoiled), all of Mick's lines made me laugh, the Atom's saving Kara made me cheer, and for the first time, I actually saw chemistry between Barry and Iris. I also wanted more of Felicity and Iris' Die Hard-ing it through STAR Labs.

As for the haters, I just don't care. At this point, someone's always going to be complaining if Felicity or Olicity gets even one second of screen time.

Edited November 29, 2017 by tv echo

[Trini]

I'm really surprised didn't have a new trailer for Black Lightning. I'm they ran those (really short) promos during the crossover, but it would have been the perfect time to release something more substantial. Surely they have enough footage now.

Also that there hasn't been any update on Freedom Fighters: The Ray since the crossover was introducing that world and The Ray. They should at have a release date in mind.