Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[BunsenBurner]

@quarks And don't forget of the 4 shows Flash is the only one without consequences. It is the only show where they can do no wrong. The problem with that is it seems to have consequences on the other shows and not theirs.

Edited October 1, 2017 by BunsenBurner

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Isn't this just a "modern" tv movie though? At least CWs version. I don't think we will be getting individual openings for each show like in the past since it's suppose to be a true 4hr movie.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did still throw up the openings, not the "previously on" or the voice over for Arrow or LoT, but the title page just smashed on the screen kind of announcing the new hour.  I do expect that Supergirl and The Flash will have oodles of "previously ons"  They'll have to remind the Supergirl audience of Barry and of Supergirl meeting everyone else and of course in the Flash hour, everything that happened up through Arrow on Monday.    

[lemotomato]

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Also since Candice Patton herself said the writers have dropped Iris as a Journalist storyline  even though she's been pushing for it, I'm going to assume they really don't care or will pay much attention to their past canon byline ?‍♀️

Now I'm imagining in 2024, after not mentioning Iris and journalism for 7 seasons, the writers suddenly remember "Oh shit! We have to make her a reporter to tie back to that byline in seasons 1-3!", and they handle it the same way the Arrow writers did with Oliver's island survivor beard and hair. 

[Trini]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

I would agree, except that this seems to me to be an absolutely fundamental misreading of The Flash - the very point of which is to argue that the future is not set in stone, and can always be changed by choices people make....

Yes, the future can change. I've never said otherwise. Right now Iris West-Allen is the future.

Quote

... As demonstrated by Iris and H.R. last season, when Iris decided that she didn't like her then-future, and H.R. agreed to sacrifice himself so she could change it.

After being "just a damsel in distress", when she doesn't die Iris is the bad guy now? Amazing. She didn't have anything to with HR deciding to sacrifice himself, that was all him.

 

2 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

@quarks And don't forget of the 4 shows Flash is the only one without consequences. It is the only show where they can do no wrong. The problem with that is it seems to have consequences on the other shows and not theirs.

The point of Flashpoint is that it's a mistake. All of season 3 were the consequences.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Trini

[BunsenBurner]

49 minutes ago, Trini said:

 

The point of Flashpoint is that it's a mistake. All of season 3 were the consequences.

 Flashpoint should not have had consequences on other shows.

[Trini]

34 minutes ago, BunsenBurner said:

 Flashpoint should not have had consequences on other shows.

Agreed. That's all on the Arrow showrunners though. (I guess so they could have conflict for the crossover?)

[way2interested]

7 minutes ago, Trini said:

Agreed. That's all on the Arrow showrunners though. (I guess so they could have conflict for the crossover?)

Huh, now I kind of wonder what came first. Like, if the idea for the crossover conflict came first, then Arrow's kind of blocked into a corner and forced to incorporate Flashpoint since LoT and Supergirl didn't have to. But if Arrow incorporating it in 302/503 came first, then I wonder if the conflict came after deciding to do that. Then again, with the Flash showrunners and GB deciding on doing Flashpoint essentially when doing 223, I wonder if they (or GB) were already deciding that it would/should effect the other shows.

Although having it all be on the Arrow showrunners seems a bit iffy since the Arrow change was introduced on Flash first and then just name-dropped on Arrow until that mini subplot of Diggle missing his son's birthday. It's kind of set-up in the way where it's like Flash was going to make a change and then Arrow was forced into it to maintain continuity. Not saying that's what happened, since it looks pretty clear that it was Flash's idea and then Arrow just said "sure" and ran with it, but it's just a perception issue. Just like how I remember seeing a bunch of Flash fans mad at Arrow back in s2/s4 since Arrow "spoiled" through the flash-forward that Barry was going to be fine after Zoom broke his back, as if Arrow "forced" Flash to make Barry better to maintain Arrow's continuity. Obviously that's not what happened either, but it was a perception problem.

[Primal Slayer]

I for one was fine with side effects from Flashpoint being on other shows since you can't have something as big as Flashpoint occur and then nothing happens to the other shows in the shared universe. 

[insomniadreams88]

I just still remember the tease that Felicity was carrying something or however they worded it over the summer before season 5 because of Flashpoint and then it turned out to just be that she knew about it and that never really came up?

[way2interested]

Just now, insomniadreams88 said:

I just still remember the tease that Felicity was carrying something or however they worded it over the summer before season 5 because of Flashpoint and then it turned out to just be that she knew about it and that never really came up?

Ha, it's almost as if distressing buzzword teases said by the EPs don't come to fruition XD

[JJ928]

I think they should've saved Flashpoint for this big 4-way crossover. They could have modeled it after the animated film, and we'd still get some evil versions of characters without Nazis. Flashpoint was just a waste imo. 

[Primal Slayer]

1 minute ago, JJ928 said:

I think they should've saved Flashpoint for this big 4-way crossover. They could have modeled it after the animated film, and we'd still get some evil versions of characters without Nazis. Flashpoint was just a waste imo. 

I agree. It definitely deserved to be done on a bigger platform and be done better then what it was. 

[BkWurm1]

3 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Now I'm imagining in 2024, after not mentioning Iris and journalism for 7 seasons, the writers suddenly remember "Oh shit! We have to make her a reporter to tie back to that byline in seasons 1-3!", and they handle it the same way the Arrow writers did with Oliver's island survivor beard and hair. 

Ha!  So in 2024 we could get  Iris going undercover as a journalist or even have Felicity hack the paper's database and changes the byline and it still would be compliant with the headline.  

Edited October 2, 2017 by BkWurm1

[tarotx]

They might be able to bring 2024 up with Zari. She's from the near future. 2030 I think. 

[quarks]

1 minute ago, Trini said:

Yes, the future can change. I've never said otherwise. Right now Iris West-Allen is the future.

 

You started this argument by saying:

Quote

With WestAllen we know they stay married until at least 2024.

Moving on -

Quote

After being "just a damsel in distress", when she doesn't die Iris is the bad guy now? Amazing. She didn't have anything to with him deciding to sacrifice himself, that was all him.

(blinks)

I've never argued that Iris is the bad guy.  Ever.  I have made that comment about Barry, more than once, but not about Iris. I would even argue - and I think I did at one point well back in this thread - that up until Flash's third season finale, she was one of the most unambiguously good characters in the Arrowverse, and even after that episode, she was still ethically way above most of the other characters.  Granted, the competition is not that stiff. Over on Team Legends - well, Ray is relatively close these days, but has had his grey moments in the past. Nate is close, but when we left him, he and Amaya had just agreed to do something they know could have major ethical consequences; Rip, Stein, Sara and Mick are right out, leaving only Jax.  Over on Supergirl....well.  That's a lengthy discussion. And Team Arrow? HA HA HA HA HA.

But my discussion about the amorality of Flash was addressed to the show, not Iris. The morality of a show, and the morality of its characters, are not the same thing.  See, for instance, Westworld, which barely has a single ethical or even somewhat redeeming character, but is not, itself, an amoral show. It has ethics, and it is aware that the world it presents is monstrous.

So I stand by this argument: Flash is an amoral show, one that, greatly unlike its sister shows, seems unaware that the world it presents is monstrous.  It features a superpowered protagonist who can and does change the lives of his friends - many of whom are also his employees - frequently without their input - and generally presents his decisions as either understandable (season one) or the only choice he could make (reversing Flashpoint in season three).  (The employee part was brought up at the start of season 2, and although it hasn't been mentioned since, it's the only thing that explains how Star Labs is in operation.)  This is also a superpowered protagonist with the ability to lock up his enemies without oversight, something he has done on a frequent basis - with the show depicting this as a good thing.  (It is not a good thing that the only person to really critique that this season was Laurel/Black Siren - on another show, no less.) That his actions typically affect, for the worst, characters from more marginalized groups doesn't help, but the fundamental problem is that Flash generally presents this protagonist not just as a hero, but as a savior.  Even his Speed Force punishment this season was presented as Barry choosing to accept punishment in order to save others.  And this is just the major stuff.

But the true monstrosity/amorality is the world presented by Flash: a world where bystanders - some innocent, most petty criminals - found themselves physically transformed by the machinations of a villain (the Reverse-Flash) - a situation that in turn has led them to terrorize others and themselves, or find themselves hunted, imprisoned in solitary confinement, or forced to travel through time, separated from their families. Stein, unlike Ray or Nate, did not become Firestorm by choice. (And sure, Sara didn't exactly choose to be an assassin either - but she did choose to get on that boat. Ray chose to create his superpowered suit. Nate chose to hunt down Team Legends. And so on.) And the worst part of this is that the implications and the terror of this world have largely been addressed in the one Arrowverse show least equipped to handle it - Arrow.  Flash just presents it largely blithely - with the added fun that the person targeted for the original event (Barry) received a beneficial transformation and ended up inheriting the villain's wealth and getting engaged to the girl whose boyfriend was killed in part thanks to the targeting and to his actions.  And also getting a celebration in his honor and being treated by his city as a hero. 

Though I should be fair - we do see one non-scientist character, with no involvement in Star Labs whatsoever, who was only doing her job as a police office when the particle accelerator exploded. And we see what happened to her - she ended up isolated, on the run, freaked out by the mere idea of getting a normal apartment, and even three years later, struggling to rebuild her life.

WE SAW THAT ON ARROW.

Apart from a few scenes with Stein, and a very few scenes with Cecile last season, Flash has largely never stopped to consider the implications of any of this, even as it critiques Arrow for regularly hosting terrorist events (fair) and Supergirl for imprisoning aliens in a secret federal prison rather than the usual city jail while awaiting trial.  This is not something that the other shows are doing: Team Legends discusses the implications of changing time all the time; Arrow has interrupted its script/action to discuss what effect all of this is having on housing prices; and Supergirl has had multiple heavy handed discussions on "how do we handle illegal immigrants er aliens which are not at all clumsy metaphors for that."  All three shows show some sort of awareness of the monstrosity of its situation. Flash wants its monsters - but doesn't want to acknowledge its monstrosity. Amoral.  

How much of this is conscious I do not know. On the one hand, Flash did finally acknowledge last season, in script, that Barry could be seen as a villain; had Cisco critique him, and acknowledged that yes, Barry had the capacity to turn evil - and that if he did, he would be very difficult to stop.  Flash also acknowledged, in its first season, that Barry became the Flash largely because of the manipulations of a villain - suggesting that Flash is well aware that its protagonist, like Oliver Queen, was shaped in part by evil. On the other hand, Cisco stayed on Team Flash (and the fact that a white man also removed a fortune from a Hispanic man kinda went unmentioned for the rest of the season) and the majority of the criticisms of Barry get made on the other shows.  And all of the other shows, even the lightweight Legends of Tomorrow, spend more time at least acknowledging that hey, there's an issue here. Even when it's done ineptly (hi, Arrow!) or unconvincingly (joining forces with Cadmus, Supergirl? WHERE DO I BEGIN.)  Flash usually depicts its protagonist as special and the right sort of hero. 

And since we were talking about Iris...well. Episode 323 is fairly clear: Sure, the choice was H.R.'s. But.  Killer Frost left Iris (looking like H.R.) at one of Arrow's favorite exterior fence locations, just outside one of Arrow's favorite warehouses, where Savitar and Killer Frost Were Plotting Deep Plots and keeping Iris prisoner. I think we can take it for granted that they were not in Star City, but wherever they were, they were also not near where Savitar planned to kill Iris.  And yet, Iris came running up to Joe just as Savitar killed H.R. - meaning that she was awake and aware that H.R. was impersonating her for some time before Savitar killed him.  Look, I can and have handwaved this by saying that Iris thought that the best way to stop/help was to get to Infantino Street, and presumably took off running as soon as she woke up (in fact, she probably would have had to run to get there on time) - but that in turn raises some other questions. She knew when this was going to happen.  So either she ran there without once trying to flag down a car to get her there faster to try to stop H.R. in which case, TIME CRUNCH, IRIS, WHY DIDN'T YOU TRY TO FLAG DOWN A CAR or, she did flag down a car, in which case why the hell didn't she ask for a cell phone and try to contact Team Flash?  Bonus negative points that IRIS TOOK THE TIME TO CLIMB UP TO THE BUILDING WHERE JOE WAS INSTEAD OF RUSHING TOWARD SAVITAR'S KILLING SPOT. 

I bring this up not to jump on Iris exactly, but because this is an example of another type of a different kind of amorality on Flash - that, like Arrow, it frequently cares more about plot (H.R. dying, Iris seeing it) than how the way its characters might come across as the show tries to get it to that plot. Iris was the victim of this at least twice in that finale - later, with the "yes, we've just returned from the funeral of the guy who died to save me BUT LET'S TALK WEDDING INVITATIONS NOW BECAUSE IT'S COMING UP IN THE CROSSOVER, DUDES, SO WE GOTTA GET THAT TIDBIT IN even if this makes me temporary look seriously shallow" and earlier, with this running up to the scene bit. It would have taken all of three seconds to have Iris gasp out, to Joe or to Barry, "I tried to get here sooner, but I couldn't --" and just leave it there. We all could have asked why - how low is your Uber rating, Iris? - but the question would have been addressed. 

In the meantime, though, yeah - it is, unfortunately, canon that Iris woke up in time to save H.R., but for whatever reason (plot), didn't - and was grinning over her wedding invitations shortly after his funeral.  Another all too typical Arrowverse example of not thinking how things would appear to the audience. 

[tofutan]

I dream of a universe where Supergirl acknowledges that Alex beating up unarmed suspects is not actually just hilarious and cool. 

That said, while the reaction to HR was rushed, and yes, Barry and Iris going "well, let's keep on living, hello wedding invitations", it doesn't really rank that highly on the "WTF that's so immoral" scale of Flash, because there's quite a lot of competition. 

Quote

joining forces with Cadmus, Supergirl? WHERE DO I BEGIN

It was done for like one episode, discussed in detail why it's a bad thing/done due to special circumstances. Why is it so different than teaming up with Maxwell in season 1? So far from the spoilers it doesn't look like Cadmus plays a huge role, so there's a chance that they are still pursued as criminals (yes we know that Lillian took credit for getting rid of the Daxamites, but the finale didn't give enough information to deduce that she was successful in that to clear her name/crimes, should could have done that from the underground, but that might just mean that she's still a criminal with only slightly better PR), while with Maxwell it appears he actually got away with his crimes and still somewhere being a filthy rich billionaire with an intact reputation. 

[Velocity23]

2-17 TV Ad Spend by Show

http://www.spoilertv.com/2017/10/2-17-tv-ad-spend-by-show.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Marvel's Inhumans 96,770

Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 94,921

Gotham   88,796

The Flash   62,425

Supergirl    50,511

DC's Legends of Tomorrow 37,525

Arrow  37,453

Supernatural 34,430

Edited October 2, 2017 by Velocity23

[tv echo]

Ouch - though I suppose he could've been referring to the originally planned big-screen movie version of Marvel's Inhumans...

Quote

James Gunn was live.
September 21 at 11:58am · 
Live short video chat Q&A with me

https://www.facebook.com/jgunn/videos/10154575084151157/

-- In response to fan asking him please to save the Inhumans, James Gunn: "It does not look like there's much saving left for the Inhumans."

Edited October 2, 2017 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

2 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

2-17 TV Ad Spend by Show

http://www.spoilertv.com/2017/10/2-17-tv-ad-spend-by-show.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Marvel's Inhumans 96,770

Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 94,921

Gotham   88,796

The Flash   62,425

Supergirl    50,511

DC's Legends of Tomorrow 37,525

Arrow  37,453

Supernatural 34,430

Those ad rates certainly explain why the CW pours the promotion into Supergirl and Flash while ignoring Arrow and LoT.

I wonder why Supergirl's plunge in ratings didn't affect its new ad rates.

Edited October 2, 2017 by lemotomato

[tv echo]

'Justice League' Gets Incredibly Detailed Pumpkin From The Pumpkin Geek
by Cameron Bonomolo | September 30, 2017
http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/09/30/-justice-league-incredibly-detailed-pumpkin-geek/

Quote

Halloween and the release of DC Films' blockbuster superhero epic Justice League are just ahead, and award-winning artist Alex Wer has combined the two in a carved pumpkin that's in a league of its own.
*  *  *
Wer previously showed off pumpkins featuring Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and other DC-inspired pumpkins, including the titular heroine of Supergirl, The Dark Knight's Joker and the CW's Flash and Arrow.

 

 

 

 

To see pics of other pumpkin carvings by this artist:
https://www.instagram.com/thepumpkingeek/

Edited October 2, 2017 by tv echo

[quarks]

7 hours ago, tofutan said:

I dream of a universe where Supergirl acknowledges that Alex beating up unarmed suspects is not actually just hilarious and cool. 

That said, while the reaction to HR was rushed, and yes, Barry and Iris going "well, let's keep on living, hello wedding invitations", it doesn't really rank that highly on the "WTF that's so immoral" scale of Flash, because there's quite a lot of competition. 

It was done for like one episode, discussed in detail why it's a bad thing/done due to special circumstances. Why is it so different than teaming up with Maxwell in season 1? So far from the spoilers it doesn't look like Cadmus plays a huge role, so there's a chance that they are still pursued as criminals (yes we know that Lillian took credit for getting rid of the Daxamites, but the finale didn't give enough information to deduce that she was successful in that to clear her name/crimes, should could have done that from the underground, but that might just mean that she's still a criminal with only slightly better PR), while with Maxwell it appears he actually got away with his crimes and still somewhere being a filthy rich billionaire with an intact reputation. 

Oh, so true on the reaction to HR and the wedding invitations issue - that's one main reason why, at the top of that overly long post, I noted that Iris remains well ahead of most other Arrowverse characters in terms of ethics.  That was just "wow, we really didn't think how that would look" instead of "wow, that's some serious ethical issues here."  

Regarding Supergirl and Cadmus - I referenced Cadmus mostly because that happened more recently than Maxwell, but Cadmus is a fascist quasi-Nazi organization who earlier in the season used poison gas to eliminate people they deemed non-people/non-human. And in teaming up with Cadmus, Kara/Supergirl ended up agreeing that genocide was their best/only option. (Also, last I checked, lead is not exactly good for humans, either, though Supergirl didn't delve into that.) I agree that it does look as if the DEO/Supergirl/possibly Mon-El will continue to pursue Cadmus, while Maxwell is getting away with it presumably because the CW couldn't or wouldn't pay Peter Facinelli enough to fly up to Vancouver, but I'd still argue that this team-up was pretty bad.

That said, Supergirl doesn't quite embrace authoritarian values the way Flash does, and at least has had characters question what's going on. And although Supergirl did have that cringy (for me) moment with Kara/Mon-El where Kara said that it was easier/better to be with a non-human romantically since she didn't have to worry about breaking Mon-El's nose (sigh), Supergirl in general hasn't really followed Flash's tendency to depict all non-human people who refuse/fail to follow Barry's agenda (or join Team Arrow) as inherently dangerous, and has shown us aliens interested in just having normal, mundane lives. And its main human/non-human relationship, Wynn and Lyra, have so far had one of the healthier/more stable relationships on the Arrowverse. Ok, that's a seriously low bar, but still.

On a more cheerful subject, wow, those pumpkins are amazing.

[tofutan]

Quote

 And in teaming up with Cadmus, Kara/Supergirl ended up agreeing that genocide was their best/only option. (Also, last I checked, lead is not exactly good for humans, either, though Supergirl didn't delve into that.)

I could write an entire essay on why the season 2 ending was really non-sensical if you think about it for 2 minutes. However, I would argue it shows that at the very least it showed that the show was not comfortable with Kara casually doing genocide. That's why even though Rhea died instantly from the poison, we saw Daxamite soldiers beaming on their ships and their ships leaving. So we have no proof that anybody other than Rhea actually died, no matter how likely that might seem. Supergirl the character (or Winn and Lena who built the thing) might not have known that it would work out that way, but the show clearly tried to put some bandaid workaround on it. 

Quote

Wynn and Lyra, have so far had one of the healthier/more stable relationships on the Arrowverse. Ok, that's a seriously low bar, but still.

Well, give them time. They've only been around for a few episodes for one season. And that time strictly speaking their relationship was built on lies (since he was technically her mark to seduce and she did frame him for a crime), something that Winn, in typical Supergirl fashion forgave her for pretty much instantly and she already freaked out a bunch of people by displaying something that kinda looked like anger issues. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by tofutan

[Starfish35]

3 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

Marvel's Inhumans 96,770

Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 94,921

Gotham   88,796

The Flash   62,425

Supergirl    50,511

DC's Legends of Tomorrow 37,525

Arrow  37,453

Supernatural 34,430

Also interesting is the year to year change:

Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.  -12%

Gotham   -32% (Second largest drop in the chart next to Blindspot's -33%.  I wasn't paying attention but did Gotham's ratings drop that much last season?)

The Flash   3%

Supergirl    -8%

DC's Legends of Tomorrow 1%

Arrow  -7%

Supernatural 22%

Edited October 2, 2017 by Starfish35

[Miss Dee]

I agree, when it comes to future renewal decisions the percentages tell the tale more than the amounts. I'm pleasantly surprised and relieved by the slight increase in Legends, but that -33% for Gotham profoundly depresses me.

On the whole, the Arrowverse shows are very steady - only minor increases and decreases - which kind of explains why they're the bread and butter shows of the CW right now.

ETA: Supernatural is aptly named. A 22% increase after a dozen seasons? Some otherworldly influence is going on there....

Edited October 2, 2017 by Miss Dee

[Starfish35]

I wonder if the drop for Gotham might also have something to do with the timeslot change?

Edited October 2, 2017 by Starfish35

[BunsenBurner]

11 hours ago, quarks said:

But my discussion about the amorality of Flash was addressed to the show, not Iris. The morality of a show, and the morality of its characters, are not the same thing.  See, for instance, Westworld, which barely has a single ethical or even somewhat redeeming character, but is not, itself, an amoral show. It has ethics, and it is aware that the world it presents is monstrous.

So I stand by this argument: Flash is an amoral show, one that, greatly unlike its sister shows, seems unaware that the world it presents is monstrous.  It features a superpowered protagonist who can and does change the lives of his friends - many of whom are also his employees - frequently without their input - and generally presents his decisions as either understandable (season one) or the only choice he could make (reversing Flashpoint in season three).  (The employee part was brought up at the start of season 2, and although it hasn't been mentioned since, it's the only thing that explains how Star Labs is in operation.)  This is also a superpowered protagonist with the ability to lock up his enemies without oversight, something he has done on a frequent basis - with the show depicting this as a good thing.  (It is not a good thing that the only person to really critique that this season was Laurel/Black Siren - on another show, no less.) That his actions typically affect, for the worst, characters from more marginalized groups doesn't help, but the fundamental problem is that Flash generally presents this protagonist not just as a hero, but as a savior.  Even his Speed Force punishment this season was presented as Barry choosing to accept punishment in order to save others.  And this is just the major stuff.

But the true monstrosity/amorality is the world presented by Flash: a world where bystanders - some innocent, most petty criminals - found themselves physically transformed by the machinations of a villain (the Reverse-Flash) - a situation that in turn has led them to terrorize others and themselves, or find themselves hunted, imprisoned in solitary confinement, or forced to travel through time, separated from their families. Stein, unlike Ray or Nate, did not become Firestorm by choice. (And sure, Sara didn't exactly choose to be an assassin either - but she did choose to get on that boat. Ray chose to create his superpowered suit. Nate chose to hunt down Team Legends. And so on.) And the worst part of this is that the implications and the terror of this world have largely been addressed in the one Arrowverse show least equipped to handle it - Arrow.  Flash just presents it largely blithely - with the added fun that the person targeted for the original event (Barry) received a beneficial transformation and ended up inheriting the villain's wealth and getting engaged to the girl whose boyfriend was killed in part thanks to the targeting and to his actions.  And also getting a celebration in his honor and being treated by his city as a hero. 

Though I should be fair - we do see one non-scientist character, with no involvement in Star Labs whatsoever, who was only doing her job as a police office when the particle accelerator exploded. And we see what happened to her - she ended up isolated, on the run, freaked out by the mere idea of getting a normal apartment, and even three years later, struggling to rebuild her life.

WE SAW THAT ON ARROW.

Apart from a few scenes with Stein, and a very few scenes with Cecile last season, Flash has largely never stopped to consider the implications of any of this, even as it critiques Arrow for regularly hosting terrorist events (fair) and Supergirl for imprisoning aliens in a secret federal prison rather than the usual city jail while awaiting trial.  This is not something that the other shows are doing: Team Legends discusses the implications of changing time all the time; Arrow has interrupted its script/action to discuss what effect all of this is having on housing prices; and Supergirl has had multiple heavy handed discussions on "how do we handle illegal immigrants er aliens which are not at all clumsy metaphors for that."  All three shows show some sort of awareness of the monstrosity of its situation. Flash wants its monsters - but doesn't want to acknowledge its monstrosity. Amoral.  

How much of this is conscious I do not know. On the one hand, Flash did finally acknowledge last season, in script, that Barry could be seen as a villain; had Cisco critique him, and acknowledged that yes, Barry had the capacity to turn evil - and that if he did, he would be very difficult to stop.  Flash also acknowledged, in its first season, that Barry became the Flash largely because of the manipulations of a villain - suggesting that Flash is well aware that its protagonist, like Oliver Queen, was shaped in part by evil. On the other hand, Cisco stayed on Team Flash (and the fact that a white man also removed a fortune from a Hispanic man kinda went unmentioned for the rest of the season) and the majority of the criticisms of Barry get made on the other shows.  And all of the other shows, even the lightweight Legends of Tomorrow, spend more time at least acknowledging that hey, there's an issue here. Even when it's done ineptly (hi, Arrow!) or unconvincingly (joining forces with Cadmus, Supergirl? WHERE DO I BEGIN.)  Flash usually depicts its protagonist as special and the right sort of hero. 

I agree with what you are saying and I blame everything on the EPs and writers BUT

 

The Flash may have reversed Flashpoint in Season 3 on his show but not on Arrow. It makes no sense. He ruined OQs relationship with FS and changed Sara to JJ Diggle. Neither one was reversed. Yes I know that O/F are getting back together but they did it on their terms not Barry's.

Let's be real Barry really is the biggest monster in the  Arrowverse. Yet, he is the one who everyone reveres. Crazy. Then again The Flash is Berlanti's favorite show so of course in the end Barry can do no wrong.

I've said this before but will repeat it. My now 8 yo nephew is not allowed to watch The Flash because of the lack of consequences. This show is not a good show for children to watch.

[Primal Slayer]

For sure the Friday timeslot would effect it.

[Velocity23]

Flash and Arrow character celebrating Big Belly Burger 

[Starfish35]

4 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

For sure the Friday timeslot would effect it.

Are you talking about Gotham? It's moving to Thursday, not Friday.  

[Primal Slayer]

5 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Are you talking about Gotham? It's moving to Thursday, not Friday.  

Oh, I must have gotten it mixed up with AOS. I think the Thursday move would effect Gotham though since they probably looked at what it's up against and how they'd expect it to perform. 

[Velocity23]

6 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Are you talking about Gotham? It's moving to Thursday, not Friday.  

They probably weighing out the competition also a show with a bigger lean in is also beneficial for the following show. Its all about how CW negotiated with the advertisers. The Dynasty numbers are quite impressive for a show that is DOA. 

[Starfish35]

3 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

The Dynasty numbers are quite impressive for a show that is DOA. 

Yeah I thought that was interesting too, and that Valor ranked so much lower comparatively.  

But now that we're talking about timeslot changes, I wonder if the move from 9pm to 8pm has anything to do with the jump for Supernatural? Do they charge higher rates in the earlier hour?

Edited October 2, 2017 by Starfish35

[Primal Slayer]

I would think so. 8pm is a much more desirable slot then 9pm since it falls within the "family" your. 

[Starfish35]

7 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I would think so. 8pm is a much more desirable slot then 9pm since it falls within the "family" your. 

Then Arrow moving from 8:00pm to 9:00pm (and changing nights) might have something to do with its drop as well?  Interesting.

[Velocity23]

Official Legends poster

[Featherhat]

2 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

And all of the other shows, even the lightweight Legends of Tomorrow, spend more time at least acknowledging that hey, there's an issue here.

As shown by the poster above, the fact that LOT knowingly fucked up time to prevent something they thought was worse is going to be a major theme of the show this season, with their own former leader creating another group to keep them in check/do their job better than them. 

MG and PK seem to actively like having the Legends muck things up as much as possible and the story acknowledges that pretty much every episode somehow (Mick's opening narrations are  a thing of beauty that would never happen on the other shows. And the villains got an episode where they learned the importance of trust and working together as a team, aww. 

 

[LeighAn]

2 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

 

The Flash may have reversed Flashpoint in Season 3 on his show but not on Arrow. It makes no sense. He ruined OQs relationship with FS and changed Sara to JJ Diggle. Neither one was reversed. Yes I know that O/F are getting back together but they did it on their terms not Barry's.

The show brushing over the fact that Barry's meddling played a part in Olivers decision to lie about William just as Samanthas ultimatum did always annoys me a little. Yes the bigger responsibility lies with Oliver since he made the choice, but Barry planted fear in his head that Felicity had dumped him because he had a son, which was a total misinterpretation and misrepresentation of what actually happened. He witnessed a bad fight between the two of them but he didnt know the reason why they were fighting or that that fight was necessarily the end of Oliver and Felicity.

In a hypothetical reality where the original 4x08 timeline carried on and they didn't all die it's possible cooler heads may have prevailed and Felicity would have decided to hear Oliver out and/or Oliver would have made more of an effort to talk to Felicity and trust her with what he was going through and they would have pulled through in a way they couldn't in the timeline we have now because Felicity's hurt and betrayal about Oliver not being honest with her lying to her and not trusting her was amplified both by the fact that they were engaged to be married and the length with which he kept it a secret.

Plus the whole 'warning' by Barry at the end where he vaguely implied to Oliver that there might be dire consequences to the universe if he tells Felicity the truth, combined with Samantha saying he can't be a part of his sons life if he tells anyone that Williams his specifically including his fiancée in that mix, leads to one confused stupid Oliver who lets face it is easily emotionally manipulated.

Although to be fair to Barry they also never paid attention to the fact that there is really no defensible reason for Samantha both keeping William a secret from William and demanding Oliver not breathe a word about William to anyone once Oliver knows the truth. Apparently in Arrow world that's worthy of saintification. 

Oliver was made to suffer for his sins rightly so, but there were other people (mainly Samantha) who had sins that got off lightly. 

[ruby24]

Saw on twitter that a couple of DC shows have the day off today because the cast is on the other shows for the crossover. Sounds like Supergirl and Arrow are the ones filming today.

I wonder when they will do the big wedding scene. I assume that's got to have everyone there at the same time. I wonder if the wedding's on Supergirl or Arrow.

[LeighAn]

4 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Saw on twitter that a couple of DC shows have the day off today because the cast is on the other shows for the crossover. Sounds like Supergirl and Arrow are the ones filming today.

I wonder when they will do the big wedding scene. I assume that's got to have everyone there at the same time. I wonder if the wedding's on Supergirl or Arrow.

According to the paps the Legend and Supergirl characters leave for their universes before the weddings take place.

[JamieLynn832002]

1 minute ago, LeighAn said:

According to the paps the Legend and Supergirl characters leave for their universes before the weddings take place.

I thought ruby24 meant the original Barry/Iris wedding that presumably gets interrupted.

[ruby24]

Yeah, actually I mean the one that's getting crashed. I assume it gets crashed at the last minute, so we're going to have a ceremony with everyone around and everything. They actually sent Candice Patton to LA for a day last week to be fitted for a designer wedding dress (she showed a peek of it on her snapchat), so I think this wedding will be intended to be big.

[way2interested]

I wonder then why they're making a big deal about her dress if they end up getting married at the end with just the chopped Flash/Arrow cast. Is she going to wear it for both scenes (if they haven't filmed the real weddings yet) to make it worth it or are they just saving it for that one scene so they have a big deal dress to likely show off in all of the promos? 

Edited October 2, 2017 by way2interested

[Xander]

I wonder why the CW can't negotiate higher ad rates. Particularly for The Flash. Its ratings are comparable to Lucifer's with it outrating it in the Spring but yet it commands half of what it gets. It definitely outrated Agents of Shield (average similar to Supergirl) and gets significantly less and that show is moving to Fridays. I wonder what factor we're missing other than it's on the CW.

 

8 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I wonder why Supergirl's plunge in ratings didn't affect its new ad rates.

It switched networks so it was probably already factored in last year. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Xander

[Primal Slayer]

4 hours ago, BunsenBurner said:

I agree with what you are saying and I blame everything on the EPs and writers BUT

 

The Flash may have reversed Flashpoint in Season 3 on his show but not on Arrow. It makes no sense. He ruined OQs relationship with FS and changed Sara to JJ Diggle. Neither one was reversed. Yes I know that O/F are getting back together but they did it on their terms not Barry's.

Let's be real Barry really is the biggest monster in the  Arrowverse. Yet, he is the one who everyone reveres. Crazy. Then again The Flash is Berlanti's favorite show so of course in the end Barry can do no wrong.

I've said this before but will repeat it. My now 8 yo nephew is not allowed to watch The Flash because of the lack of consequences. This show is not a good show for children to watch.

Did we watch a different s3? They didn't reverse anything from Flashpoint on The Flash.

8 minutes ago, Xander said:

I wonder why the CW can't negotiate higher ad rates. Particularly for The Flash. Its ratings are comparable to Lucifer's with it outrating it in the Spring but yet it commands half of what it gets. It definitely outrated Agents of Shield (average similar to Supergirl) and gets significantly less and that show is moving to Fridays. I wonder what factor we're missing other than it's on the CW.

 

It switched networks so it was probably already factored in last year. 

I think because TheCW is not shown in every market like the big 4 are.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I hope they fit Iris' better than Felicity's. Yes, I'm bitter over that I'll-fitting dress. Also, already bitter that Iris is getting a designer gown for her big day. 

[BkWurm1]

Just being on the CW who has fewer stations would explain the lower rates.  

[Velocity23]

2 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Did we watch a different s3? They didn't reverse anything from Flashpoint on The Flash.

Well the certainly reversed things from Flashpoint regarding the West family. 

[Miss Dee]

@way2interested, I'm guessing the latter re. Iris' dress.

I will never, ever get sick of Mick Rory's opening narration; that thing is pure gold, Jerry, gold. (Although now that I've heard Purcell's real speaking voice, I can only surmise the damage he's doing to his vocal cords....)

I actually like that the Legends are leaving after the funeral and before the wedding(s). Having them get all festive after a death would be very unrealistic. And the loss is going to be compounded by the fact this team is isolated from family, friends and other support networks; they're going to take this hard - possibly even harder than when Leonard died, as they've been through so much more now with only themselves to rely on.

I don't expect they'll get the end of the episode moment - that's going to be saved for Arrow and Flash - so I hope the Legends episode after the crossover deals with the aftermath and everyone processing their grief and emotions. Possibly group hugging will be involved. (I hope. I'm not giving up on my dream of a Legends group hug, dammit!)

With the events happening like they do - Legends and Supergirl characters leaving after the funeral - I think there are honestly no plans by either couple to have a wedding at that point, or they'd ask them to stay. Legends would turn it down, of course, but otherwise I don't see why Kara and Alex wouldn't stay. Unless there's a plot related reason, like Earth-X planning to infiltrate Supergirl's Earth for the midwinter plot arc and they have to hightail it home.

So we might see the segueways into how the couples get to from "No plans for a wedding right now" to "Eh, let's go for it." I'm guessing the weddings will be very impromptu affairs, small and private.

[BkWurm1]

Just now, SmallScreenDiva said:

I hope they fit Iris' better than Felicity's. Yes, I'm bitter over that I'll-fitting dress. Also, already bitter that Iris is getting a designer gown for her big day. 

I told myself she was supposed to have gone in for one more fitting before the NotWedding was suddenly moved up.  

[SmallScreenDiva]

4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I told myself she was supposed to have gone in for one more fitting before the NotWedding was suddenly moved up.  

I could go with that. Still makes me want to pull up her bustier, though ?