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Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

ArctisTor

By ArctisTor
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apinknightmare
apinknightmare

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

And then someone tells him that what he did was okay because of reasons, or that he can't keep feeling guilty, he just has to move forward. Like, no, just...go ahead and feel really guilty for awhile?

SleepDeprived
SleepDeprived

Hey, now... Listen. The practice of proper etiquette during an impromptu wedding officiated by your best friend in a park, right after the funeral of a beloved colleague, is of the utmost importance,

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statsgirl

statsgirl

If it's just action shots in dark places where I can only vaguely make out people fighting with each other and BC and BS screaming at each other, I'm fine to wait till the show actually starts broadcasting episodes.

I doubt they're going to spoil anything I'm really interested in, like whether Thea and Samantha are conscious and what's up with Diggle.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

1 hour ago, lemotomato said:

I'm not saying that this is actually going to happen in the episode (because I know promos are misleading), but after a whole half season of "Save Iris", they're promoting the season premiere by implying Iris needs to be saved? Again?

Even though they tell us that she spent months running the Team, what they show us is that she needs to be saved. Again.

After I watched the promo it linked to a spoiler for Once Upon A Time's new Princess Tiana:

Quote

“Tiana’s most defining characteristic is her strength,” say the Once creators. “She’s been through a lot when we meet her, but she never wavers even when doubting oneself would seem to be the most logical, and safe, course of action.

“She has her share of enemies,” they add, “but that goes with the territory when one is fighting for a just cause.”

I wish The Flash would take a page from how OUaT writes female characters.

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Trini

Trini

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Even though they tell us that she spent months running the Team, what they show us is that she needs to be saved. Again.

Iris is the one confronting the villain; how do you know it's not part of her plan?

I for sure thought Flash would be the last to get a new promo, since they have to do all the special effects. What a great surprise!

Quote

“Tiana’s most defining characteristic is her strength,” say the Once creators. “She’s been through a lot when we meet her, but she never wavers even when doubting oneself would seem to be the most logical, and safe, course of action.

“She has her share of enemies,” they add, “but that goes with the territory when one is fighting for a just cause.”

Sounds similar to Iris to me.

  • Love 4
apinknightmare

apinknightmare

Nowhere in that clip does it show that Iris is confronting the villain - it shows the villain stepping behind her, Joe yelling her name, and the villain holding her - indicating that she hasn't taken charge of the situation. If the scene is her confronting the villain, I think that's much more interesting than giving the indication she needs to be saved. But, maybe the CW marketers understand the very, very sensitive nature of some of their viewers when it comes to women asserting themselves and don't want to scare anyone off. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

9 hours ago, Trini said:

Sounds similar to Iris to me.

The strength part, yes.  But Iris doesn't fight for a cause, Barry fights for a cause and Iris supports Barry.  There's no indication that if Barry weren't The Flash and Wally a speedster, Iris would be anything but a reporter.  On OUaT more often than not it's the female characters saving the world.

We'll know in a month if Iris is the one leading the charge to defeat the villain or if her role is to be damseled yet again.

tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

I just got my new TV Guide Magazine (Double Issue, Sept. 18-Oct. 1, 2017) in the mail. This is their "Returning Favorites" issue, where they run through the old shows returning this fall on each day of the week.  I've posted the Arrow blurb on page 6 of the New Spoilers thread, but here's what was said about the other Arrowverse shows...

Supergirl - Last season finale showed Reign being sent to Earth from Krypton as an infant. She was genetically created to be a weapon of mass destruction. However, per AK, she has no idea. She's been living in National City as a now grown-up named Samantha Arias (Odette Annabile). AK: "One thing we've never done on Arrow or The Flash is watch the villain become the villain... Sam is just Sam." As the season progresses, per AK, the working single mom "will realize there is something different about her... It's a fun dark-mirror version of the journey Christopher Reeve took in the original Superman as Clark." Sam will develop connections with Supergirl's core characters, which will cause friction down the road. AK: "Everyone will have a relationship with her, and that will drive much of the season in terms of the how far they're willing to go to stop her when she becomes Reign... Some will believe she needs to be saved; others will think she needs to be stopped." (*)

(* tv echo: Why do the Arrowverse EPs keep using the same or similar sounding names over and over again? Arrow has a single mom named Samantha, and now Supergirl will have a single mom named Samantha. I would also dispute AK's assertion that we've never watched a villain become a villain on Arrow or Flash.)

The Flash - AK: "[Caitlin is] continuing to struggle with the cold monster lurking inside of her... But she will definitely come back into the fold in the premiere episode." Regarding Ralph Dibney, a/k/a the Elongated Man (Harley Sawyer), AK: "There's going to be a lot of conflict between [him and Barry] in terms of how to be a good guy... Ralph is hitting on everybody all the time. He's brash and loud and doesn't listen." He's also hiding something about how he acquired his powers of malleability. AK: "That's one of the big mysteries of the season." Regarding the Thinker (Neil Sandlands), he is "an intelligence threat" who actually isn't out to foil the Flash. AK: "He has a need for him, I would say is more accurate."

LoT - The Legends defeated the Legion of Doom, but they also messed up history. Before they can repair it, they'll have to contend with Rip Hunter and his Time Bureau.

Edited by tv echo
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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

I'm surprised that The Flash is not on this guy's list, when both Supergirl and Arrow are on it...

10 Must-Watch Returning Shows of Fall 2017  
BY ROBERT SCOTT ON 13 SEPTEMBER 2017
http://gearsofbiz.com/10-must-watch-returning-shows-of-fall-2017/52557

Quote

7. Supergirl

Whether you’re a fan of the Supergirl comics or not, Season 3 of The CW show is definitely something you won’t want to miss. The Season 2 finale teased the new villain, Reign, who is a genetically created “Worldkiller” in the comic books. Reign in the series will be played by Odette Annable and she will be a villain unlike anything seen before, especially since she has one specific agenda: to conquer Earth with or without Kara’s help.
*  *  *
3. Arrow

Oliver Queen’s story came full circle with the end of Arrow Season 5. After five years, we learned how Oliver went from a whiny playboy to the Green Arrow, and how he became worthy of that title. Season 5 ended with an epic finale, which unfortunately meant the death of the best villain ever, Prometheus. More importantly, it left us with the fate of most characters up in the air, with the explosion on the island. Tune in to Season 6 if you want to know who survived.

10. The Big Bang Theory
9. Grey’s Anatomy
8. Riverdale
7. Supergirl
6. The Walking Dead
5. Supernatural
4. Outlander
3. Arrow
2. NCIS
1. This Is Us

Edited by tv echo
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Delphi

Delphi

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

Like Ralph showing Barry how to do it and Barry resisting at every turn? 

Ralph: And now we -

Barry: Run super fast and go back in time to fix this situation. 

Ralph: What?  No,  we play the hand we were dealt and try to salvage..

Barry: Got it,  salvage everything by running really fast and modify everything in creation.   Be right back,  hold my beer.  Make choices for all my loved ones while I'm gone. 

  • Love 19
lemotomato

lemotomato

6 minutes ago, Delphi said:

Ralph: And now we -

Barry: Run super fast and go back in time to fix this situation. 

Ralph: What?  No,  we play the hand we were dealt and try to salvage..

Barry: Got it,  salvage everything by running really fast and modify everything in creation.   Be right back,  hold my beer.  Make choices for all my loved ones while I'm gone. 

This is perfect. Barry in a nutshell.

  • Love 1
LolaRuns

LolaRuns

1 hour ago, tv echo said:

I'm surprised that The Flash is not on this guy's list, when both Supergirl and Arrow are on it...

10 Must-Watch Returning Shows of Fall 2017  
BY ROBERT SCOTT ON 13 SEPTEMBER 2017
http://gearsofbiz.com/10-must-watch-returning-shows-of-fall-2017/52557

 

I like the sound of that. In the comics Reign also offered Kara to team up. I predict her motivation here will be something boring. Like her daughter is dying of some mystical illness that can only be cured if Reign takes over the world. 

But yes, I would argue that Killerfrost is a villain we have seen develop. I guess if Reign becomes a full blown unrepentant villain rather than a one who is forced into it they can argue it will be different. But I always assumed that they would also be doing a story with her about her being taken over by her imprinted nature that the Kryptonian scientists instilled in her. 

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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

(edited)
2 hours ago, tv echo said:

Supergirl - Last season finale showed Reign being sent to Earth from Krypton as an infant. She was genetically created to be a weapon of mass destruction. However, per AK, she has no idea. She's been living in National City as a now grown-up named Samantha Arias (Odette Annabile). AK: "One thing we've never done on Arrow or The Flash is watch the villain become the villain... Sam is just Sam." As the season progresses, per AK, the working single mom "will realize there is something different about her... It's a fun dark-mirror version of the journey Christopher Reeve took in the original Superman as Clark." Sam will develop connections with Supergirl's core characters, which will cause friction down the road. AK: "Everyone will have a relationship with her, and that will drive much of the season in terms of the how far they're willing to go to stop her when she becomes Reign... Some will believe she needs to be saved; others will think she needs to be stopped."

This sounds more like Sam Witwer's Davis Bloom not knowing he was Doomsday from Smallville, than what Kreisberg is saying about Reeves' Superman. ?????

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
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Karlophe

Karlophe

(edited)
15 hours ago, apinknightmare said:
 

Barry grew a big boy beard!

Gah! Naked Barry! They let Grant keep his summer scruff for the premiere! Timely promo drop! Thank you for posting, can't wait for Arrow and Legends. 

 

5 hours ago, apinknightmare said:

But, maybe the CW marketers understand the very, very sensitive nature of some of their viewers when it comes to women asserting themselves and don't want to scare anyone off. 

That is a sad truth, but probably not the whole truth. Because wrapped up in this understanding, if that's what it is, is in its very nature a solid misunderstanding of a diverse viewing audience. We need more female presence behind the scenes badly, and more open and diversified minds full stop (regardless of race or gender) to tell these stories. Stories where every character, regardless of what they "do", is loved and respected and explored by the writing so they can be cared for and connected with by anyone. It needs to be more than, "Hi, my name is 'Mask', and despite lazy characterization, I am important to this story for this reason. Hi, my name is 'Scientist, Every Last Field And I Mean All Of Them', and despite being little more than a bundle of quirks conceived as a one and done, I am important to this story for that reason."

Artemis and Tracy Brand were both treated as plot points, but I cared because I cared about Artemis' story (execution notwithstanding) and I loved Tracy's character. Not because Artemis had a bow and Tracy was a scientist. Those are important parts of who their characters were, certainly, but those weren't the reasons I cared about them. It isn't why I care about Iris. But because the former two are solidly supporting characters, their treatment isn't quite as glaring as it is with the main female characters. 

To be clear, I am agreeing with you, (and apologize for going off on a tangent) and understand exactly who and what you're talking about. You'd have to be blind not to see that the misogyny at the viewer level doesn't extend behind the scenes. I just can't agree, based on a few seconds of a thirty second clip, that it extends to the marketing here. If lady hating hearts everywhere are soothed by seeing her menaced by giant samuroid, as opposed to, in their minds, doing something useful (thus bringing the hatred!) that's not something I can help. But if anyone behind the scenes tossed that in for that specific purpose, it would be staggeringly naive. No matter who she is or what she does, prominent female characters in a story will always be hated by someone, will always be weighed and measured and stacked against each other, will always be set up at some point to see who is worthy, in their story, of existing as exactly she is.

And that's where the misunderstanding I was talking about comes in, in that they believe that they have to appeal to those viewers to do it. They don't. The hatred from those particular viewers, whether its framed as stemming from this character being useless or that character not staying in her place will be there no matter what, because it's the same hatred. Usefulness, their place in the story, whether they are deserving of it are just convenient excuses for it. But misogyny runs much deeper than that, and that is the bigger reason why the rest, unfortunately, is already being done for them. 

Edited by Karlophe
Holy wall of text, batman.
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GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

(edited)
2 hours ago, tv echo said:

The Flash -  Regarding Ralph Dibney, a/k/a the Elongated Man (Harley Sawyer), AK: "There's going to be a lot of conflict between [him and Barry] in terms of how to be a good guy... Ralph is hitting on everybody all the time. He's brash and loud and doesn't listen." He's also hiding something about how he acquired his powers of malleability. AK: "That's one of the big mysteries of the season." Regarding the Thinker (Neil Sandlands), he is "an intelligence threat" who actually isn't out to foil the Flash. AK: "He has a need for him, I would say is more accurate."

Oh, brother. ????

Edited by GHScorpiosRule
way2interested

way2interested

This isn't supposed to be a dig or anything, but I do find it kind of funny how TH and AK are saying similar things that WM and MG were saying before s4 for Arrow ("last year was so dark," "this year we're trying to be lighter," 401: Flash Reborn vs. 401: Green Arrow, etc.)

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This sounds more like Sam Witwer's Davis Bloom not knowing he was Doomsday from Smallville, than what Kreisberg is saying about Reeves' Superman. ?????

My thought exactly but that brings me hope because Smallville came sooooooo close to getting it right, that story line (before of course making me rage quit - when they go wrong, boy oh boy!).  So if Supergirl just tweaks the final transition to full on evil and skips the rubber suit and 30 second "ultimate" battle, this could work.  

  • Love 3
statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

I think Kreisberg just isn't aware of female characters at all, especially ones who don't wear masks.  Even if they are supposed to be the leading lady of the show.

5 hours ago, Karlophe said:

And that's where the misunderstanding I was talking about comes in, in that they believe that they have to appeal to those viewers to do it. They don't. The hatred from those particular viewers, whether its framed as stemming from this character being useless or that character not staying in her place will be there no matter what, because it's the same hatred. Usefulness, their place in the story, whether they are deserving of it are just convenient excuses for it. But misogyny runs much deeper than that, and that is the bigger reason why the rest, unfortunately, is already being done for them. 

I don't think it's about appealing to the haters as much as a basic misogyny on AK's and TH's parts.  The female POV never occurs to them, just as it never occurs to them to write a real story for a female character.  In season 1 the only Flash villain who was killed was Plastique and she was trying to fight her badness so if anyone should have been allowed to be redeemed it was her.  Meanwhile every male villain got put into the pipeline.*  It's a straight line from that to today.

*Iris' old nemesis did end up dying in the finale but he was still given the chance to be redeemed. 

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

The Flash - Regarding Ralph Dibney, a/k/a the Elongated Man (Harley Sawyer), AK: "There's going to be a lot of conflict between [him and Barry] in terms of how to be a good guy... Ralph is hitting on everybody all the time. He's brash and loud and doesn't listen."

That sounds just like Mon El last season.  If it (kind of) worked once, let's do it again!

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

Sam will develop connections with Supergirl's core characters, which will cause friction down the road. AK: "Everyone will have a relationship with her, and that will drive much of the season in terms of the how far they're willing to go to stop her when she becomes Reign... Some will believe she needs to be saved; others will think she needs to be stopped."

I'm hoping that James' new love interest is going to be Reign. It would put an interesting spin on the decision-making.  But probably they will forget that James exists again.

Edited by statsgirl
  • Love 6
LeighAn

LeighAn

8 hours ago, statsgirl said:

The strength part, yes.  But Iris doesn't fight for a cause, Barry fights for a cause and Iris supports Barry.  There's no indication that if Barry weren't The Flash and Wally a speedster, Iris would be anything but a reporter.  On OUaT more often than not it's the female characters saving the world.

We'll know in a month if Iris is the one leading the charge to defeat the villain or if her role is to be damseled yet again.

I'm pretty sure it's going to be Iris leads the team for one or two episodes while Barry is stuck in speed force, he comes back gets all pissy that she's in charge, they go to therapy over it and Barry will acknowledge that Iris is capable, because he needs to be forced into thinking about somebody other then himself, but then afterwards the writers  will think therapy covers Barry decentness for the year so he will go on being the same douche and Iris his enabler. 

  • Love 7
statsgirl

statsgirl

9 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

 Barry will acknowledge that Iris is capable, because he needs to be forced into thinking about somebody other then himself, but then afterwards the writers  will think therapy covers Barry decentness for the year so he will go on being the same douche and Iris his enabler. 

Don't forget that it will show how much of a prize Barry is. Every girl should want to be with him.

  • Love 4
LeighAn

LeighAn

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Don't forget that it will show how much of a prize Barry is. Every girl should want to be with him.

Oh yes and how super romantic it is that Iris is marrying a guy she was in therapy with a couple of episodes before because he doesn't respect her.  But hey respects trust and honesty is not a fundamental part of a successful marriage or anything so no biggie. 

  • Love 2
Trini

Trini

2 hours ago, wonderwall said:

Is Kreisberg so allergic to Iris which is why he never mentions her at all ever? Yikes.

Not true.
 

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I don't think it's about appealing to the haters as much as a basic misogyny on AK's and TH's parts.  The female POV never occurs to them, just as it never occurs to them to write a real story for a female character.  In season 1 the only Flash villain who was killed was Plastique and she was trying to fight her badness so if anyone should have been allowed to be redeemed it was her.  Meanwhile every male villain got put into the pipeline.*  It's a straight line from that to today.

At least 6 villains died in Season 1, and not all of them went to the Pipeline. But I agree that they are lacking when it comes to the female POV.

  • Love 2
wonderwall

wonderwall

5 minutes ago, Trini said:

Not true.

"[The villain] is someone he's going to have to out-think and it's going to take him, and Cisco, and Caitlyn and a few other surprise people to get a step ahead of the Thinker"

If the Arrow EPs blatantly ignored Felicity like this I'd be upset but you do you.

Trini

Trini

5 hours ago, way2interested said:

This isn't supposed to be a dig or anything, but I do find it kind of funny how TH and AK are saying similar things that WM and MG were saying before s4 for Arrow ("last year was so dark," "this year we're trying to be lighter," 401: Flash Reborn vs. 401: Green Arrow, etc.)

At least Flash was light from the start, so that's something they can go back to. Arrow was written and promoted as "dark and gritty", so I'm not sure how much that could have changed.

  • Love 2
way2interested

way2interested

31 minutes ago, Trini said:

At least Flash was light from the start, so that's something they can go back to. Arrow was written and promoted as "dark and gritty", so I'm not sure how much that could have changed.

Yeah, that's why I wasn't digging at Flash. I just honestly thought it was funny how both shows made the "s3 was too depressing, let's do a 180 for 4a!" choice.

  • Love 1
GHScorpiosRule

GHScorpiosRule

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

I'm pretty sure it's going to be Iris leads the team for one or two episodes while Barry is stuck in speed force, he comes back gets all pissy that she's in charge, they go to therapy over it and Barry will acknowledge that Iris is capable, because he needs to be forced into thinking about somebody other then himself, but then afterwards the writers  will think therapy covers Barry decentness for the year so he will go on being the same douche and Iris his enabler. 

I have never seen Barry be "pissy" toward Iris over anything and it's not in his nature to resent her. So I'm not clear as to why anyone would think he'd act this way.

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Don't forget that it will show how much of a prize Barry is. Every girl should want to be with him.

 

2 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Oh yes and how super romantic it is that Iris is marrying a guy she was in therapy with a couple of episodes before because he doesn't respect her.  But hey respects trust and honesty is not a fundamental part of a successful marriage or anything so no biggie. 

When has Barry ever disrespected Iris? If by keeping that he was the Flash is disrespectful, then every single hero who has hidden who he or she is from their friends and loved deserves the same contempt. Never mind that bit revealing who they are was for valid reasons.

5 minutes ago, way2interested said:

Yeah, that's why I wasn't digging at Flash. I just honestly thought it was funny how both shows made the "s3 was too depressing, let's do a 180 for 4a!" choice.

The problem for me is that The ASSHATS on Flash promised that season three would be lighter than season two and yet we got the abominable Savitar plot.??

  • Love 1
apinknightmare

apinknightmare

6 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I have never seen Barry be "pissy" toward Iris over anything and it's not in his nature to resent her. So I'm not clear as to why anyone would think he'd act this way.

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Because the EP said they'd be going to couples counseling because they're butting heads over who's in charge.

LeighAn

LeighAn

(edited)
9 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I have never seen Barry be "pissy" toward Iris over anything and it's not in his nature to resent her. So I'm not clear as to why anyone would think he'd act this way.

Only because that's exactly what the producers were teasing. They said that Barry would butt heads with Iris over her being in charge to the point they'd need therapy....which sounds like a lack of respect of Iris to me. 

Edited by LeighAn
Mellowyellow

Mellowyellow

10 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

When has Barry ever disrespected Iris? If by keeping that he was the Flash is disrespectful, then every single hero who has hidden who he or she is from their friends and loved deserves the same contempt. Never mind that bit revealing who they are was for valid reasons.

I think he is fairly nice to her but I was SUPER annoyed the season where his dad died and she tried to comfort him on the porch and then he Flashpointed to find his mummy again. 

And then Savitar which was a version of him tried to kill Iris. 

To me it's like he does love her until something better comes along and he just forgets about her or doesn't consider her at all and the show just glosses over it. But I watch Flash and seperate Barry from the writing so often I don't blame Barry but I blame the writers. It's all very odd but it's probably why I still like Barry quite a bit. I assume some invisible force (the bad writing) makes him do the crap he does because the GG portrayal of Barry is a nice guy whom I really like.

  • Love 3
raven

raven

3 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

To me it's like he does love her until something better comes along and he just forgets about her or doesn't consider her at all and the show just glosses over it.

It seems to me that Barry shouldn't be in a relationship now.  He's got way too much going on to be serious and proposing.  I like Barry despite everything but I really like Iris - it's Caitlyn who bugs me - and getting them together seemed rushed, though they have nice chemistry.

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