Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[raven]

This topic is for discussion of the Arrow and other Super universes, not Katie Cassidy on social media, who likes her/who doesn't, etc. 

Please stay on topic, be polite and avoid becoming repetitive by moving on from the discussion after you've expressed your opinion.

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, wonderwall said:

 

David needed to chill there - that was so not the right place to make that comment. 

Agreed.

[Primal Slayer]

Moving on.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Primal Slayer

[raven]

Move ON from the Katie Cassidy discussion.

[wonderwall]

This is random but this is my prediction on the number of episodes the following characters will appear in for the crossovers:

Kara: 4
Barry: 4
Oliver: 4
Cisco: 4
Sara: 4
Ray: 4
Felicity: 3-4
Diggle: 3-4 
Caitlin: 2-3
Iris: 1
Newbies: 1
Thea: 1
Joe: 1
Alex/other SG cast: 1
BS: 0-1

9 minutes ago, raven said:

Move ON from the Katie Cassidy discussion.

For life? Because this would be great :')

[bettername2come]

I would really love to see Iris in more than one episode this season. I'd also love it if Alex could actually get involved in the crossover since she's missed all three Supergirl crossovers and has never met any of the Flash characters. Actually, I'd really like to have Alex and Lyla meet since Lyla's basically Alex with more experience. 

[Trini]

5 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

I would really love to see Iris in more than one episode this season. I'd also love it if Alex could actually get involved in the crossover since she's missed all three Supergirl crossovers and has never met any of the Flash characters. Actually, I'd really like to have Alex and Lyla meet since Lyla's basically Alex with more experience. 

Yeah, Iris and Alex being more involved, and appearing on the other shows is a must. I'd also love to see the women from the different shows interacting more, in general. There was hardly any in the last crossover.

[BkWurm1]

5 hours ago, wonderwall said:

This is random but this is my prediction on the number of episodes the following characters will appear in for the crossovers:

Kara: 4
Barry: 4
Oliver: 4
Cisco: 4
Sara: 4
Ray: 4
Felicity: 3-4
Diggle: 3-4 
Caitlin: 2-3
Iris: 1
Newbies: 1
Thea: 1
Joe: 1
Alex/other SG cast: 1
BS: 0-1

 

I expect to see more of the LoT cast in multiple episodes than just Sara and Ray.  Not really sure who (though I wouldn't be surprised if Nate is still getting pushed more than I like) but I agree that Sara is a lock and that's a wonderful thing. 

If the crossover starts in the Supergirl episode, I rather hope they do bring a nice chunk of the cast over to our universe (cause I just can't see a big chunk of the Flarrowverse peps popping over to National City).  Alex is always welcome but I want Hank/MM because I want Diggle to have something new to freak out over.  

[bijoux]

12 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I expect to see more of the LoT cast in multiple episodes than just Sara and Ray.  Not really sure who (though I wouldn't be surprised if Nate is still getting pushed more than I like) but I agree that Sara is a lock and that's a wonderful thing. 

If the crossover starts in the Supergirl episode, I rather hope they do bring a nice chunk of the cast over to our universe (cause I just can't see a big chunk of the Flarrowverse peps popping over to National City).  Alex is always welcome but I want Hank/MM because I want Diggle to have something new to freak out over.  

Diggle's role in the crossover - hyperventilating into a series of papar bags. ?

[Delphi]

I'm hoping Thea at least gets two.   I'm assuming she'll get Arrow and Flash.   Then Oliver can thank someone for getting her home safely.  Because,  I guess she's a kindergartener. 

[bettername2come]

7 hours ago, bijoux said:

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Alex is always welcome but I want Hank/MM because I want Diggle to have something new to freak out over.  

Diggle's role in the crossover - hyperventilating into a series of papar bags. ?

While Joe nods sagely next to him like, "Same, dude. Same." 

I kind of want Gorilla Grodd to be in the crossover, because I don't think there's a single character that wouldn't flip out over seeing him for the first time.

[Guest]

Can't a girl get Felicity and Iris having a scene together? I just feel like they would be really great friends. There's so much potential there and they never use it. *Shakes fist*

[JJ928]

20 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

Can't a girl get Felicity and Iris having a scene together? I just feel like they would be really great friends. There's so much potential there and they never use it. *Shakes fist*

I've been wanting this since the first time Felicity crossed over. They need to write Iris into at least 3 out of the 4 shows for the xovers (not sure how they'll workout SG), then I need her to crossover to Arrow on her own, and I'm gonna need MG to write her into LOT in an AU role where she's a masked hero (like they did with FS). I don't watch Flash anymore because of the way they treat Iris, so give me all the Iris on other shows please.

[wonderwall]

I personally don't think Iris is going to crossover and if she does it'd be at most 1 other show... Simple reasoning is history and how they've treated her. If Flash barely cares about the character and gives her little importance on her own god damn show (ugh), then I don't see  how other shows would write her into their episodes which will obviously prioritize featuring more of their own characters.

And before someone tells me Iris is important to the show. As much as I hate to say this, I don't really believe so. She's important as a love interest but they haven't built her up to do or be anything else considering Flash doesn't care about her journalism. And IMO It's easy to replace love interests regardless of comic canon and destiny. 

So until I see the writers actually investing in Iris and giving her a purpose on her own show I don't see her crossing over to other shows. It's a sad reality but it is what it is now. I mean this can change in season 4... But I need to see it to believe it. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by wonderwall

[JJ928]

I don't think Iris is replaceable at all. The show does not write for her character, which is why I dropped it, but to say she's easily replaceable is wrong imo. Iris has her romantic connection to Barry, but she was his friend & family first. So yes, she is important. I'm not about to write her off because of her lack of story. I will, however, continue to take my grievances to the writing team. That said, her being written into Arrow or Legends would be up to MG & WM, not the Flash team. So I don't see why she has to be excluded from other show because Flash doesn't appreciate her. Other shows have written in Felicity, Diggle, Ray, Sara, Laurel, Lance, etc... they can sure as hell write in Iris. And let's be real, I love Felicity she's my fave, but while she may have plenty of screen-time her writing was non-existent crap in 5A, and yet that isn't a reason for me to write her off or stop asking she be treated better. I'm not gonna wait for Flash to appreciate Iris in order for me to want her on other shows. I rather see what the other shows can do for her as a character.

[wonderwall]

3 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

I don't think Iris is replaceable at all. The show does not write for her character, which is why I dropped it, but to say she's easily replaceable is wrong imo. Iris has her romantic connection to Barry, but she was his friend & family first. So yes, she is important. I'm not about to write her off because of her lack of story. I will, however, continue to take my grievances to the writing team. That said, her being written into Arrow or Legends would be up to MG & WM, not the Flash team. So I don't see why she has to be excluded from other show because Flash doesn't appreciate her. Other shows have written in Felicity, Diggle, Ray, Sara, Laurel, Lance, etc... they can sure as hell write in Iris. And let's be real, I love Felicity she's my fave, but while she may have plenty of screen-time her writing was non-existent crap in 5A, and yet that isn't a reason for me to write her off or stop asking she be treated better. I'm not gonna wait for Flash to appreciate Iris in order for me to want her on other shows. I rather see what the other shows can do for her as a character.

Please don't put words in my mouth and twist what I was saying. I'm not saying she HAS to be excluded from the crossovers. Never have I said that. I'm just saying logically - if her own show barely cares about her own character - then I don't really see how other shows would care about her enough to include her when their priority will be to include their own side characters. That's why I feel like it'd be more prudent to actually fight for her to have more importance on her own show first before fighting for her to be in crossovers.

For me? If Felicity were just a love interest she'd be replaceable. But she isn't. She adds value to the show in ways that no other love interest could. Iris? Sure she has history with Barry, sure she's his love interest, but Laurel had the same advantages in season 1 (except Iris is a vastly better character than she is) and we can see how LLs irrelevance to the show affected the character. I'm not saying Iris is LL or that she'll die... I'm just saying she needs more to be more integral to the show in ways that doesn't include being Barry's LI. That means giving her a point of view, giving her more agency, giving her a purpose. I don't want her in the background anymore just like LL was in seasons 2-4.

And I'm also not saying it's impossible for her to cross over. She can given the right circumstances. If the crossover is about saving Iris or if it's centered around a wedding, or if journalism will actually be important, or heck, if Iris is the only person who can give a specific piece of advice, then I can see it happening. Otherwise, I doubt that the CW would pay anyone extra money for a character to crossover unless the show she's in - therefore the network - is invested in said character.

[wonderwall]

29 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

I love Felicity she's my fave, but while she may have plenty of screen-time her writing was non-existent crap in 5A, and yet that isn't a reason for me to write her off or stop asking she be treated better.

I'm upset she didn't get enough importance in 5A. But that doesn't change how important she was in 5B. Felicity actually got a storyline that explored her character with more depth. Not only that but half a season doesn't change the importance she's had over the last 5 years. She's helped taken down Slade, Damien, helped catch Adrian, helped stop one of the earthquake machines, she's had her own centric episode, we've seen her parents, we've seen her fall in love, own her own company, help beat bad guys on a weekly basis...

Is there more I'd like for Felicity? Sure. Was I disappointed with 5A? Sure. But that really doesn't change her importance to the show and that she should be written off. 

These are two completely different situations.

Edited June 28, 2017 by wonderwall

[JJ928]

I hate comparing women... but Felicity has been reduced to her connection to the men she's involved with several times. It may not be something that is regularly occurring but it has happened. In the past seasons Iris has had her side stories, but that all disappeared this season. Let's not argue about who is treated better or worse because in terms of story (not screen time), both women are lacking, which is absolutely shameful for both shows. I have never cared about LL and don't care to discuss her, but she had connections on the show and she wasn't irrelevant to the story. I think Laurel represented the past, and that was important to the show, it's also why her death made sense to me. To say Iris is just a love interest is incredibly reductive of the character as a whole. She's never had a lot of writing but she used to have her own life, motivations,  & job. The Flash for some reason decided to strip her of those things this year.

Felicity's whole Helix arc, as stated by the character, was in reaction to her boyfriends death... and while that doesn't bother me that much any more, it is once again attaching her motivations to a man. Hell, even when she told Oliver she wanted to carry some of the burdens for him, that was also about her connection to him (no matter how much I liked the line as a shipper). Sure, Felicity is treated slightly better than Iris, but she still gets shafted when it comes to her emotional stories, so it's nothing I'm going to celebrate over. We can argue all day, but all of the Berlanti shows work the same way in regards to women, even those not on CW. I'd say Felicity became a key component on Arrow, whether she's with Oliver or not, and I would say the same exact same thing about Iris. Both deserve better writing, but now I'd like Iris to get some attention elsewhere as well.  I don't think the crossover has to be about Iris for her to be included. That's like saying Felicity isn't need in all the crossovers because Cisco or Winn could do her job... except neither of them is Felicity. Iris being Iris is what I want to see, because she brings a certain level of grounded humanity that is sometimes missing among all the masks.

Edited June 28, 2017 by JJ928

[tv echo]

I just hope that Felicity isn't absent from a crossover episode because she has to babysit effin' William!

(We know that being a father to a minor child isn't going to stop Oliver from being in all four crossover eps.)

Edited June 28, 2017 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

While there have been times that Felicity's story has been mostly about Oliver, she's always had a role on the team -- always as tech support, often as the voice of reason (getting Oliver and Diggle to stop fighting; "mom" to the n00bs) and often in terms of her tech abilities (Palmer Tech, Helix).  As far as I can tell, they've never given Iris anything that's been necessary other than supporting her men.  Even her reporter stories have been less than Susan Williams got this season.

It's shameful.

Speaking of Iris, Jenny Cruise talked about her back in November 2015 when she talking about the roles of Laurel vs Felicity:

There's a New Girl in Town 

Quote

There’s a classic character in traditional adventure fiction: The Girl who’s the love interest for The Hero. She’s young, she’s beautiful, and she says, “Be careful, John,” a lot.* She may be the CEO of a major corporation at 23, but she still needs him to rescue her often. And sometimes she needs to die so he can feel incredible pain (aka “fridging”) and then go out and beat up the bad guys. I don’t know why there’s such a pervasive idea that the Hero’s Girlfriend has to be a helpless, boneless, gormless doorstop of a character, but it’s everywhere, especially on TV.

Female protagonists have been getting stronger (although they’re still too damn rare) while the supporting character Girls have remained mostly accessories and plot devices. But something interesting has been happening in the past couple of years: TV audiences have been rejecting The Girl on a regular basis. Internet comments like “Can we put Laurel/Katrina/Juliette/Barbara/Iris on an island someplace and lose the map?” are generally followed with some variation of “She’s boring, she’s annoying, she’s whiny, she’s stupid.” Much of this is not The Girl’s fault: when you only exist as an object of desire for the hero in order to make his life more difficult and angst-ridden, you’re gonna end up boring, annoying, whiny, and stupid enough to walk into the bad guy’s clutches on a regular basis. Then add to that network casting that tends to fall back on model-beautiful actresses at the expense of personality and verve, and The Girl is pretty much stuck. I still don’t like her, but there’s not a lot you can do when “vapid” is baked into your character description.

The poster Girl for this failed trope is Arrow’s Laurel Lance, The Girl the Green Arrow was destined to marry except the audience said, “Oh, just no.” Laurel had the added burden of being riddled with bitterness and recrimination, stripping out all the softness and supportive gazes that serve the hero so well, and that pretty much left her not only useless but toxic. But Laurel was not alone.  [snip]

There’s Iris on The Flash, beautiful, loving, and so devoted to the hero that she starts a blog about him while remaining unattainable, in no small part because Barry (aka The Flash) has grown up as her foster brother. (The actors have great sibling chemistry, but there’s something a little squicky about a carnal connection there since they both call the same guy “Dad.”) Iris also suffered from the “Don’t Tell The Girl The Secret To Protect Her Because We All Treat Her Like She’s Four-Years-Old” Syndrome.

[snip] . I bear Iris no ill will, but Patty is a lot more fun to watch because she’s not All About The Flash. She’s not even All About Barry. She’s more All About Embracing Life And Bonus: Barry’s A Good Kisser.

[snip]Annoying. I think they may also be trying this with Iris, accelerating her journalism career and having her hang out at Star Labs to give the Flash team advice, but basically Iris is still just a really nice Girl. I have nothing against her, but I don’t particularly want to watch her. It’s telling that the writers don’t know what to do with her emotionally since I routinely tear up when Barry and Joe have one of their fatherly discussions on the show, and I am not a sucker for father-son dynamics in the least. But Iris? Such a nice girl. Where’s Patty? (I feel the same way about Caitlin, so it’s not just Iris who’s suffering from Girl Flu on this show.)

There's a lot more.  The snark is funny.  But it's from two years ago and I don't think the situation has got any better for Iris.

[way2interested]

3 minutes ago, tv echo said:

(We know that being a father to a minor child isn't going to stop Oliver from being in all four crossover eps.)

By that logic I doubt being the girlfriend to a father of a minor child would stop Felicity from being in 3-4 crossover eps.

[lemotomato]

8 minutes ago, tv echo said:

I just hope that Felicity isn't absent from a crossover episode because she has to babysit effin' William!

(We know that being a father to a minor child isn't going to stop Oliver from being in all four crossover eps.)

I'm not sure if you're joking, but I don't see why Felicity would be expected to babysit William. She's not his parent or guardian. It's just as likely that one of the newbies would get babysitting duty, or they just leave him in the bunker with a stack of coloring books to keep busy.

Edited June 28, 2017 by lemotomato

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Even her reporter stories have been less than Susan Williams got this season.

This annoyed me so much. I know that even though they're in the same universe, they're different shows and different writers and all that, but every time any time was spent on Susan and any time she was called a "good reporter" (and even mentioned in interviews) I couldn't help but wish that The Flash spent half that time on Iris' career or somehow been given all that time, if Arrow refused to do anything else with that time except spend it on Susan, to use on a storyline for Iris. Completely irrational, I know. But still. 

I worry that season 4 may start with something good for Iris in terms of a storyline and then just drop it as soon as Barry's back.  

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

I'm not sure if you're joking, but I don't see why Felicity would be expected to babysit William. She's not his parent or guardian. It's just as likely that one of the newbies would get babysitting duty, or they just leave him in the bunker with a stack of coloring books to keep busy.

Or Thea will be stuck with babysitting duty. I could see that happening. "Oh, Thea would have loved to help, but she has to help William color." 

[ohjoy]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

It's just as likely that one of the newbies would get babysitting duty, or they just leave him in the bunker with a stack of coloring books to keep busy.

In the bunker?! Do you want him to get kidnapped again??? ;-)

[lemotomato]

1 minute ago, RandomMe said:

In the bunker?! Do you want him to get kidnapped again??? ;-)

Damn, you saw right through my evil plan ;)

[insomniadreams88]

7 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Damn, you saw right through my evil plan ;)

Don't even suggest that as a joke. Don't put it out there in the universe. Next thing we know, the four-part crossover will be all about saving William after he's kidnapped. Again. And maybe taken to another Earth or something. (But don't worry, he still won't be told not to talk to strangers so it can happen in the spring/another season again.) 

[lemotomato]

1 minute ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Don't even suggest that as a joke. Don't put it out there in the universe. Next thing we know, the four-part crossover will be all about saving William after he's kidnapped. Again. And maybe taken to another Earth or something. (But don't worry, he still won't be told not to talk to strangers so it can happen in the spring/another season again.) 

On that, I don't think you need to worry. Since Supergirl and Flash are the first to air in the crossover, I think the overall arc is going to focus on something from those two shows. 

[JJ928]

16 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

While there have been times that Felicity's story has been mostly about Oliver, she's always had a role on the team -- always as tech support, often as the voice of reason (getting Oliver and Diggle to stop fighting; "mom" to the n00bs) and often in terms of her tech abilities (Palmer Tech, Helix).  As far as I can tell, they've never given Iris anything that's been necessary other than supporting her men.  Even her reporter stories have been less than Susan Williams got this season.

It's shameful.

Speaking of Iris, Jenny Cruise talked about her back in November 2015 when she talking about the roles of Laurel vs Felicity:

There's a lot more.  The snark is funny.  But it's from two years ago and I don't think the situation has got any better for Iris.

But when you look back at Felicity's independent arcs, they tie back to a man. Her flashbacks = Cooper, Palmer tech = Ray, being paralyzed = to hurt Oliver, Helix= Bobby, this is something that has always bothered me. The only arc that wasn't (originally) tied to a man was Havenrock, and the show made it's sole survivor not only male, but also part of the team, making him part of her life. The Havenrock arc was probably the worst handled story on this show.  Yes, Felicity has been an active member of the team & Iris hasn't but she was also in the dark in season 1. Felicity, as a hacker, is the core of the team. 

Iris could be useful to the team as an investigative reporter if the show would allow it. Iris also plays that voice of reason role for Barry that Felicity is for Oliver. This season from what I can tell Iris didn't have anything to do, at all. But in the past the show would at least give her an ep here and there. I also don't get the complaining over Iris becoming a journalist so quickly when people on all these shows take a class at the Y, and become superheroes. I think Iris could still play a role on Arrow independently from the xover as a journalist. There's no reason that she can't come to Star city to cover a big story. Not only does she have an in with the mayor, but Oliver would have a journalist he could trust.

My biggest issue here & why this all spiraled into this long mess, is the idea that Iris serves no purpose or is replaceable. Perhaps, to some she is but to me she is not.

[tv echo]

Here's my serious comment about William...

If Oliver's son is going to stick around next season, someone has to take care of him. As his father, Oliver is the natural choice. However, Oliver is also the Mayor and the Green Arrow. There are no living grandparents to help out (that we know of), and he is a single dad. In order to be in all four crossover episodes, Oliver has to make arrangements for William if he's going to go off to Central City, alt-National City, or time travel wherever (TPTB are not going to omit the Green Arrow from any of the mega crossover episodes, and SA would probably throw a fit if that were to happen). 

My concern is that, if Oliver & Felicity get married, then the EPs will default to Felicity staying behind to watch over William as his stepmother. For comparison, Diggle never seems restrained from going anywhere even though he has a child. We're left to assume that Lyla is taking care of Sara John Jr. - or, when Lyla is also off somewhere, that they have an ARGUS babysitter.

Edited June 28, 2017 by tv echo

[tangerine95]

I seriously doubt the show will limit Felicity just so they can say someone is taking care of William.She's had a big part in all the crossovers so far,new storylines are being teased for her so I really don't see it.I think if they're stupid enough to make Oliver raise William full time,if anyone even does it and they don't just say he has a babysiter ,it will be Thea babysitting if she's still off the team and still isn't a full time regular.I honestly hope no one has to watch William apart from his equally annoying mother lol

Edited June 28, 2017 by tangerine95

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, JJ928 said:

I hate comparing women... but Felicity has been reduced to her connection to the men she's involved with several times. It may not be something that is regularly occurring but it has happened. In the past seasons Iris has had her side stories, but that all disappeared this season. Let's not argue about who is treated better or worse because in terms of story (not screen time), both women are lacking, which is absolutely shameful for both shows. I have never cared about LL and don't care to discuss her, but she had connections on the show and she wasn't irrelevant to the story. I think Laurel represented the past, and that was important to the show, it's also why her death made sense to me. To say Iris is just a love interest is incredibly reductive of the character as a whole. She's never had a lot of writing but she used to have her own life, motivations,  & job. The Flash for some reason decided to strip her of those things this year.

Felicity's whole Helix arc, as stated by the character, was in reaction to her boyfriends death... and while that doesn't bother me that much any more, it is once again attaching her motivations to a man. Hell, even when she told Oliver she wanted to carry some of the burdens for him, that was also about her connection to him (no matter how much I liked the line as a shipper). Sure, Felicity is treated slightly better than Iris, but she still gets shafted when it comes to her emotional stories, so it's nothing I'm going to celebrate over. We can argue all day, but all of the Berlanti shows work the same way in regards to women, even those not on CW. I'd say Felicity became a key component on Arrow, whether she's with Oliver or not, and I would say the same exact same thing about Iris. Both deserve better writing, but now I'd like Iris to get some attention elsewhere as well.  I don't think the crossover has to be about Iris for her to be included. That's like saying Felicity isn't need in all the crossovers because Cisco or Winn could do her job... except neither of them is Felicity. Iris being Iris is what I want to see, because she brings a certain level of grounded humanity that is sometimes missing among all the masks.

Yes, you bring up that Felicity has been reduced to her connection to men several times, but you conveniently leave out the fact that there are many more times where she has been her own hero, where she has been capable, where she has been integral to the story/plot to make your point which I don't think is the right thing to do. Felicity - while she has unfortunately been reduced to just the love interest at times - it doesn't change the fact that her contribution to Arrow is vastly more than Iris' respective contribution to Flash. And that's a problem. Because Iris should have just as much importance on her own show as Felicity has on hers. So this is why the comparison just doesn't make sense.

And this may be an unpopular opinion around here - but Felicity has been treated the best out of all of the supporting characters across all 4 shows. But that's just me...

33 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

But when you look back at Felicity's independent arcs, they tie back to a man. Her flashbacks = Cooper, Palmer tech = Ray, being paralyzed = to hurt Oliver, Helix= Bobby, this is something that has always bothered me. The only arc that wasn't (originally) tied to a man was Havenrock, and the show made it's sole survivor not only male, but also part of the team, making him part of her life. The Havenrock arc was probably the worst handled story on this show.  Yes, Felicity has been an active member of the team & Iris hasn't but she was also in the dark in season 1. Felicity, as a hacker, is the core of the team. 

I don't agree with this at all. I believe you yourself are reducing Felicity's arcs into just hers being tied back to a man and refuse to look at her growth within these arcs. Her flashbacks were her transformation from hacktivist to who she was in season 1. Felicity tried to help save Palmer tech initially because she wanted to preserve Ray's legacy but then that grew into her wanting to do the world some good by mass-producing her chip. Her paralysis was more about Felicity than it ever was about Oliver (you likely missed 411?). Helix was Felicity taking things into her own hands. She got agency in that story. She also learned what it was like to feel like there is no other choice and letting the ends justify the means. etc.

Felicity has grown so much over the past 5 years. You can definitely tell she's a different character now than she was in season 1... Can you honestly tell me that about Iris? What growth has Iris had in season 3 with her relationship to Barry or her one or two episodes over the past few years? This is what needs to change for her.

33 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

Iris could be useful to the team as an investigative reporter if the show would allow it. Iris also plays that voice of reason role for Barry that Felicity is for Oliver. This season from what I can tell Iris didn't have anything to do, at all. But in the past the show would at least give her an ep here and there. I also don't get the complaining over Iris becoming a journalist so quickly when people on all these shows take a class at the Y, and become superheroes. I think Iris could still play a role on Arrow independently from the xover as a journalist. There's no reason that she can't come to Star city to cover a big story. Not only does she have an in with the mayor, but Oliver would have a journalist he could trust.

My biggest issue here & why this all spiraled into this long mess, is the idea that Iris serves no purpose or is replaceable. Perhaps, to some she is but to me she is not.

Could being the operative word. She could be useful but the show refuses to LET her be useful. And that's an issue. Like I said - the show hasn't been invested in Iris at all in any other way than her relationship with Barry. And giving her an episode here and there isn't enough investment imo. It's just acknowledging a character is there on the show. I mean they've given Laurel episodes here and there. 

I don't know who complained about Iris becoming a reporter too quickly - and I don't care if she did or not. The problem is that the show made it obvious that they don't care about connecting her career to the main plot. I mean you know it's bad when Susan (who had her own issues as a character) has more to do as a journalist than Iris.

And yes you have nice ideas... But again - why would the network spend the extra cash to have Candice cross over to Arrow or whatever when her own show doesn't really care about giving her something to do in the first place?It just doesn't make sense to me. That's why I think Flash should start expanding her role more if anyone ever wants her to cross over to other shows. It's not impossible - it's just that Flash is going to have to invest in her just a bit more.

I get why you're upset why I called her replaceable. But her role as a love interest? That's replaceable to me. And I'd think this if Felicity was SOLELY a love interest. I mean why else did Laurel fail in seasons 1-2? It's because she was mainly reduced to the damsel/love interest. And when the love interest part didn't work she was basically sidelined for most of the season. This is why Iris needs a larger connection to the show. And imo once she gets that - I think we'd be seeing her cross over a lot more than she does now (which is never lol).

Edited June 28, 2017 by wonderwall

[lemotomato]

23 minutes ago, tv echo said:

My concern is that, if Oliver & Felicity get married, then the EPs will default to Felicity staying behind to watch over William as his stepmother. For comparison, Diggle never seems restrained from going anywhere even though he has a child. We're left to assume that Lyla is taking care of Sara John Jr. - or, when Lyla is also off somewhere, that they have an ARGUS babysitter.

I get your concern, but what I don't understand is the idea that only William's parental figures will look after him. He's a kid, not a baby, so they could leave him with anyone. They could hire a babysitter/bodyguard. They could drop him off with Lance, who spent season 5 essentially babysitting Wild Dog. They could let him hang out with his Aunt Thea. They could say Donna is in town and have her look after him off screen. Unless "Felicity being a stepmom" is a storyline they intend to pursue, I don't see why they can't choose from several different options to explain what's happening with William.

[JJ928]

@wonderwall I brought up Felicity because all the women across Berlanti shows are treated the same, but she is the best comparison in terms of female lead role.. Felicity is my favorite character and I have consistently always asked for her to have better than what she's gotten. Just because she's been treated the best doesn't mean she's always been treated well. You replied to my comment, which was me expressing my hopes for Iris, not something I was saying would happen, in order to reduce Iris to little more than nothing. 

The reporter comment was to someone else, so I'm not sure why you're responding to it.

I never said Felicity didn't receive any development from her arcs, there are some that did not serve her well at all, and some that gave her development. I simply pointed out that her arcs, like every other woman in the arrow-verse, always connected back to men. That isn't reducing her, it's pointing out a flaw in this universe. I also said Felicity is the core of the team, and imo the most important player after Oliver, and yes, that's even before his family.

 

Quote

And yes you have nice ideas... But again - why would the network spend the extra cash to have Candice cross over to Arrow or whatever when her own show doesn't really care about giving her something to do in the first place?It just doesn't make sense to me. 

This comes off incredibly condescending.

Like I said, you responded to my comment that was simply just what I'd wish the shows would do for Iris. You took as if I were stating it as fact, for no other reason than to devalue her. You also must have missed the part where I said I no longer watch Flash because of how they treat Iris, and I wanted to see her on other shows. 

Laurel and Iris couldn't be more different. I don't care about Laurel, it's why I never talk about her, she's not a good comparison.

Edit: Oh and I watched every episode of season 4. Thanks.

Edited June 28, 2017 by JJ928

[JJ928]

34 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

 He's a kid, not a baby, so they could leave him with anyone. They could hire a babysitter/bodyguard.
 

I agree. I don't see why they can't say he's with ARGUS, like they do for Digg's kid. Has it been stated that Samantha has no family? Maybe her mom lives somewhere in Central City and he can stay at grandmas.

[apinknightmare]

29 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I get your concern, but what I don't understand is the idea that only William's parental figures will look after him. He's a kid, not a baby, so they could leave him with anyone. They could hire a babysitter/bodyguard. They could drop him off with Lance, who spent season 5 essentially babysitting Wild Dog. They could let him hang out with his Aunt Thea. They could say Donna is in town and have her look after him off screen. Unless "Felicity being a stepmom" is a storyline they intend to pursue, I don't see why they can't choose from several different options to explain what's happening with William.

Plus, at this point William knows Oliver's the Green Arrow - if he's gonna be on the show, there wouldn't be anything stopping them from having him in the bunker while crimefighting activities are going on - which wouldn't hinder Felicity most of the time since she's usually there anyway. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

The "problem" with the crossover imo is that they have the teams face together a big threat so because of the way it's conceived the characters that can contribute to the mission get the priority. They could use a little balance and use Iris more for sure but with so many characters (and so many masks) I wouldn't get my hopes up. Also the crossover is the occasion to have Barry and Oliver talk and give each other support so I think that replaces what Iris usually does for Barry..

Felicity can offer tech support and she and Cisco are those characters they like to add because they are popular and can make even a serious episode a bit funny..

[wonderwall]

3 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

@wonderwall I brought up Felicity because all the women across Berlanti shows are treated the same. Felicity is my favorite character and I have consistently always asked for her to have better than what she's gotten. Just because she's been treated the best doesn't mean she's always been treated well. You replied to my comment, which was me expressing my hopes for Iris, not something I was saying would happen, in order to reduce Iris to little more than nothing. 

The reporter comment was to someone else, so I'm not sure why you're responding to it.

I never said Felicity didn't receive any development from her arcs, there are some that did not serve her well at all, and some that gave her development. I simply pointed out that her arcs, like every other woman in the arrow-verse, always connected back to men. That isn't reducing her, it's pointing out a flaw in this universe. I also said Felicity is the core of the team, and imo the most important player after Oliver, and yes, that's even before his family.

 

This comes off incredibly condescending.

Like I said, you responded to my comment that was simply just what I'd wish the shows would do for Iris, in order to devalue her. You must have missed the part where I said I no longer watch Flash because of how they treat Iris, and I wanted to see her on other shows. 

Laurel and Iris couldn't be more different. I don't care about Laurel, it's why I never talk about her, she's not a good comparison.

Well no... People were talking about their hopes for Iris being more involved (not just you) and I chimed in on my PERSONAL thoughts on what I think is likely hence me starting my comment with personally. I was simply expanding on WHY I originally listed Iris being in 1 episode of the crossover. You decided to comment on my post disagreeing and we took the conversation from there and I had no problem with it.

And I disagree with you on how all Berlanti shows treat all the women the same. Again, personally, I think Felicity has been the most well treated supporting character across all 4 shows. Sara has accomplished a lot, so has Felicity, Kara, Alex, etc. I think Iris has been the worst treated female supporting character simply because of all the wasted potential the show refuses to touch upon. Iris hasn't grown, hasn't had her own arcs, etc. And that's a problem.

Look we both want the same thing. For Iris to get more to do. To me she has little importance to Flash outside of her role as love interest - which we can both agree is a problem. I didn't make my post to reduce Iris. I was simply pointing out the PROBLEMS the character has in terms of writing. I mean if you can't point out the problem how can the show fix it? But also this all ties into how because the writers right now don't care about Iris on her own show - it's less likely she'd cross over. Which I get you were talking about your hopes. but you responded to me about what I logically think is going to happen. I wasn't responding to you directly.

To me Laurel/Iris are more comparable in terms of their roles on the show than Felicity/Iris. I get that you don't like Laurel and that it's sort of a tough comparison to swallow (god I'd hate to see LL/FS comparisons) but Felicity's role is much larger than just love interest. Unlike Laurel's role in seasons 1-2 and Iris' role this entire series. it's just a comparison of roles. Don't get me wrong - Iris is a miles better character than LL ever was. But the I'm just comparing the roles they played not the characters themselves. 

I think the issue here is that you were trying to compare Felicity and Iris. And imo I demonstrated why that was an unfair comparison when I showed that Felicity has shown growth in her arcs whereas Iris hasn't shown much growth in her connection to Barry or Eddie. So in this case, Felicity fared a lot better than Iris did. Which I must state again - is an issue. But also I vehemently disagree that every single Felicity arc was about men. Imo her paralysis arc was more about her than Oliver. And next season her Helix and Smoak Tech arc will be about her (which I'm 99% sure is happening). 

I apologize if I came off as condescending. I didn't mean to. But please go back to the thread and see that I wasn't making a direct response to you I was just adding onto the discussion with my personal thoughts.

But I think it's best to just leave it as is. This is the last thing I'll say on the matter.

[JJ928]

@Midnight Lullaby You know, I didn't have issue with her not being in the first two crossover events. In the first she wasn't in on Barry's secret and the second was setting up Legends. This crossover though, is the first time I felt she could have had a bigger role and was upset she didn't. I mean, there are aliens in CC, and you're telling me the reporter isn't reporting on it? Or no one in CC saw those spaceships... LOL It would have been a small thing they could've included. I hope for this next they find away to at least have her on 2 of the shows.

[wonderwall]

26 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

The "problem" with the crossover imo is that they have the teams face together a big threat so because of the way it's conceived the characters that can contribute to the mission get the priority. They could use a little balance and use Iris more for sure but with so many characters (and so many masks) I wouldn't get my hopes up. Also the crossover is the occasion to have Barry and Oliver talk and give each other support so I think that replaces what Iris usually does for Barry..

Felicity can offer tech support and she and Cisco are those characters they like to add because they are popular and can make even a serious episode a bit funny..

I think what bodes well for Iris this time is that they're going for more of an emotional crossover than plot heavy tbh. But I still don't think that's enough to get her to crossover? IDK...

[statsgirl]

The characters who get to go on the crossovers are either vital to the storyline or the EPs pets.  That's why Cisco is in so many.  Sadly, I don't think Iris fits into either category. In terms of pep talks/emotional bonding, they usually do that amongst the leads of the show, Oliver/Barry/Kara rather than the characters who supply it on the shows normally.

Maybe they'll just put William to bed while they go about their nighttime activities.  Terrible parenting, but Curtis can tell him bedtime stories.  I'm  still hoping that William will be in Central City with a recovered Samantha and her family that she moved there for by the time the crossovers happen.

1 hour ago, JJ928 said:

But when you look back at Felicity's independent arcs, they tie back to a man. Her flashbacks = Cooper, Palmer tech = Ray, being paralyzed = to hurt Oliver, Helix= Bobby, this is something that has always bothered me. The only arc that wasn't (originally) tied to a man was Havenrock, and the show made it's sole survivor not only male, but also part of the team, making him part of her life. The Havenrock arc was probably the worst handled story on this show.  Yes, Felicity has been an active member of the team & Iris hasn't but she was also in the dark in season 1. Felicity, as a hacker, is the core of the team. 

Iris could be useful to the team as an investigative reporter if the show would allow it. Iris also plays that voice of reason role for Barry that Felicity is for Oliver.

I think you have to separate Felicity's stories having male characters vs the stories themselves being tied to a man.  Cooper was a man but it could as easily have been about her best friend from childhood who betrayed her.  Ray did own Palmer Tech and Curtis is a man but those two seasons were about Felicity coming into her own as a VP and later CEO.  Her decision to look for a new invention rather than firing all those people was about her personal growth, just as it was trying to help Diggle that got her involved with Helix but the arc was about learning what it's like to walk in the grey areas of life.

We've been saying all along that Iris could be useful to the team (although more as a clinical psychologist than a reporter IMO) just as Laurel could have been useful to Team Arrow as an ADA but neither show seems to care for those storylines.  The only thing Arrow seemed to care about in terms of Laurel was what she brought as Oliver's love interest (KC got that right), and the only thing Flash seems to care about in terms of Iris is her role as Barry's cheerleader/CO.  Finding out that her mother is still alive and had a full brother to Iris that Iris knew nothing about should have been a huge story for her. Instead, it was all Joe/Barry/Wally.  Even in Flashpoint, instead of being an equal part of Wally's Team, she was still an afterthought.

It's nothing about either CP or IRis but the Flash EPs seem to think of her only in terms of her role in the comics rather than what the character herself could bring to the show.

Look at poor Caitlin.  Third season, third time she's a love interest.  Even when she gets meta powers, she's at the mercy of them rather than having them her strength like Cisco has.

[Midnight Lullaby]

33 minutes ago, JJ928 said:

@Midnight Lullaby You know, I didn't have issue with her not being in the first two crossover events. In the first she wasn't in on Barry's secret and the second was setting up Legends. This crossover though, is the first time I felt she could have had a bigger role and was upset she didn't. I mean, there are aliens in CC, and you're telling me the reporter isn't reporting on it? Or no one in CC saw those spaceships... LOL It would have been a small thing they could've included. I hope for this next they find away to at least have her on 2 of the shows.

I don't think it's an angle they cared about because it didn't have to do with the mission that was the focus on the episode. I didn't feel she could have had a bigger role this time because they tried to do too much imo so I can't see how they could have added more. I miss when the crossovers were just with Arrow and the Flash and more characters could potentially get a role. Now they are so crowded I don't hope for anything to be honest, LOL.

[Cleanqueen]

Iris can be in the crossover this year if she ends up being Felicity's bridesmaid for the wedding. I'd definitely want to see that. All that aside, I do hate that the shows don't highlight their friendship enough. Just them two standing beside each other last year gave me joy but I want more. 

[Morrigan2575]

3 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I get your concern, but what I don't understand is the idea that only William's parental figures will look after him. He's a kid, not a baby, so they could leave him with anyone. They could hire a babysitter/bodyguard. They could drop him off with Lance, who spent season 5 essentially babysitting Wild Dog. They could let him hang out with his Aunt Thea. They could say Donna is in town and have her look after him off screen. Unless "Felicity being a stepmom" is a storyline they intend to pursue, I don't see why they can't choose from several different options to explain what's happening with William.

Lyla/Diggle have a 2 year old that's hardly ever seen and usually left with an Argus Babysitter.  Oliver can just drop William off with JJ. Assuming that William is actually a major/minor character in S6 and doesn't exit stage left post 601.

I seriously doubt Arrow or any of the other shows will reduce Felicity to babysitter. In fact (IMO) Felicity, Diggle and Cicso are The only characters guaranteed 3-4 episodes during the crossover.

Long story short, I agree with you.

[Proteus]

26 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Iris can be in the crossover this year if she ends up being Felicity's bridesmaid for the wedding. I'd definitely want to see that. All that aside, I do hate that the shows don't highlight their friendship enough. Just them two standing beside each other last year gave me joy but I want more. 

When were Iris and Felicty ever friends?

[bijoux]

They've been friendly when Felicity crossed over to The Flash, at least I remember that in Felicity's appearances in S1 of The Flash.

[lemotomato]

Friendly enough to greet each other with a big hug in Flash season 1

[wonderwall]

2 hours ago, Proteus said:

When were Iris and Felicty ever friends?

When did the flash crew ever interact with laurel enough for them to love her? At this point the show can easily overstate the friendship and make them good friends without on screen buildup. I wouldnt really prefer this though. 

I do hope though that iris and Felicity get more scenes together and build a friendship. I don't think they're good friends but they're friendly. 

Edited June 29, 2017 by wonderwall

[Cleanqueen]

They look so good beside each other.

 

Also let us not forget Felicity helping Team Flash find a way to beat Savitar so they could save Iris. 

[Guest]

My fave I/F moment was when Felicity was a bit insecure about wearing that super hot black dress to their quiz night and Iris was all "You look amazing!" and trying to make her feel better. JUST LET THEM BE BEST FRIENDS, DAMMIT. 

[Cleanqueen]

4 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

My fave I/F moment was when Felicity was a bit insecure about wearing that super hot black dress to their quiz night and Iris was all "You look amazing!" and trying to make her feel better. JUST LET THEM BE BEST FRIENDS, DAMMIT. 

I was trying to find that gif. Her and Eddie's lit up when Felicity walked through the door. Yeah let them be friends because we all know women aren't allowed to have female friendships in these shows.

I desperately want a scene in the crossover, where it's just the girls having drinks.