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Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

‘Legends of Tomorrow’: Marc Guggenheim Says Team’s Makeup Will Be ‘Different’ After Finale
Jacob Bryant   APRIL 4, 2017 | 11:15AM PT
http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/legends-of-tomorrow-finale-marc-guggenheim-mick-rory-leonard-snart-1202022471/

Quote

Mick (Dominic Purcell) screwed up — by his own admission — in a major way when he sided with the Legion of Doom. He tried to set things right which ended with Amaya getting killed by Snart. Does he still think he can fix things, or is he pretty defeated at this point?
He still thinks he can fix it. We’ll see in the episode that he really does make the ultimate turn away from Snart, and pays the ultimate price.

So it’s safe to say that after Mick watches Snart kill Amaya that their relationship is pretty much beyond repair.
It pretty much is. Rory is going to pretty definitively choose between Snart on the one side and the team on the other.

How is Nate (Nick Zano) handling Amaya’s death?
Nate’s reaction is certainly the most profound, and it actually has consequences for the mission.

Katie Cassidy is returning for the finale as Laurel. How was it having her share scenes with Sara (Caity Lotz) again?
It’s always a delight to have Katie Cassidy come back and reprise her role as Laurel. It’s just one scene but it’s an incredibly pivotal scene, and I think it’s very moving.

I was excited to see Katie was returning as a series regular to “Arrow,” but I honestly had my fingers crossed that Black Siren would become a member of the Legends.
That was something we had talked about. For us, the whole conversation about bringing Katie back as a series regular on “Arrow” began with her performance in the midseason premiere. We briefly spoke about bringing her on “Legends,” but I think from a story perspective we would get far more mileage out of her interacting with the cast of “Arrow.”

One of the strengths of “Legends” is it has the chance to have a rotating crew. Will the makeup of the team look different by the end of the finale?
You know what? I’ll say yes. The makeup of the team will be different.

Edited by tv echo
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apinknightmare
apinknightmare

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

And then someone tells him that what he did was okay because of reasons, or that he can't keep feeling guilty, he just has to move forward. Like, no, just...go ahead and feel really guilty for awhile?

SleepDeprived
SleepDeprived

Hey, now... Listen. The practice of proper etiquette during an impromptu wedding officiated by your best friend in a park, right after the funeral of a beloved colleague, is of the utmost importance,

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

52 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Why do I feel like "we are killing A LOT of people" will just = "we are killing all the duplicates so only 1 set remains"

I expect 1 set of duplicates to all die but also probably at least one character will die or radically be changed in a way that affects both sets of their character.  I really doubt everyone will make it out fine.  :(  But yeah, most I'm sure will just be duplicate Legends.  

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scarynikki12

scarynikki12

Quick reminder: there is no live posting in this thread.  There is a Live Posting thread for Arrow, as it has proven to be necessary, but the same is not true for Flash, Legends Of Tomorrow or Supergirl.  Wait until the various episodes end their Eastern/Central airings and then post to your heart's content in this thread or the individual episode threads.

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jay741982

jay741982

On 4/2/2017 at 11:15 AM, tv echo said:

Some b-t-s trivia...

Casting director David Rapaport said that Lili Reinhart (Betty on Riverdale) originally auditioned for the Thea role on the Arrow pilot when Lili was 14 years old ("she wasn't right for the Thea role when she was 14"), and that Melissa Benoist also auditioned for the Thea role back then.  In addition, he said that Madelaine Petsch (Cheryl Blossom on Riverdale) auditioned for a role on the LoT 1950's episode and didn't get it, but Rapaport remembered her when auditioning actors for Riverdale...

Bless that man. I think Lili and Madeline are gems 

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tennisgurl

tennisgurl

Well, it wasn't the blood bath I feared it would, but Rip! No! Come back, these idiots need you! I always liked the guy, but I really fell for him this season after everything he went through, and I will really miss him. Maybe he can just keep showing up randomly?

Still, I don't think I will need to get quite as wasted as I feared I would, so I will take it.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

I figured that they were over hyping like usual and wasn't expecting much. They can only dream of being like Game of Thrones. 

I loved this episode, Sara saved reality by doing the one thing no one would expect anyone to do. Sara's not the brightest but she got to outsmart Eobard. 

47 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I watched to see who ~died, but was of course disappointed.

But did Laurel for real say "I know" when Sara told her that she was always the better, stronger one or whatever? LMAO

Even Sara's dream Laurel is a narcissist. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

After all the interviews talking about a GoT bloodbath, I was prepared for the worst -- and ended up feeling ripped off.  Everyone survived and stayed (I was rooting for Nate to be killed or at least leave with Amaya) and Rip walked away.  Arrow kills off more people than that in a MSF.

Does Arthur Darville not want to be on the show any more?  I will miss Rip, I think he's one of the better actors.

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

But did Laurel for real say "I know" when Sara told her that she was always the better, stronger one or whatever? LMAO

 I was prepared to get teary, you know the way MG and Klemmer said I would. But there is just something about the way KC plays her characters that is just so smug.  That's why she works so much better as Black Siren than Saint Laurel.

Quote

Even Sara's dream Laurel is a narcissist. 

She knows her sister.

Edited by statsgirl
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Starfish35

Starfish35

(edited)

The GoT comparison was in reference to season three, not the finale. They did talk about lots of deaths for the finale, but as suspected, they were all the duplicates.  

From the comicbook.com interview with Phil Klemmer:

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/04/03/legends-of-tomorrow-showrunner-compares-season-3-to-game-of-thro/

Quote

they're committed to going the full Game of Thrones in season 3 so that fans never have the comfort of assuming that anyone is safe.

Edited by Starfish35
Added link to interview
Lokiberry

Lokiberry

11 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

The GoT comparison was in reference to season three, not the finale. They did talk about lots of deaths for the finale, but as suspected, they were all the duplicates.  

From the comicbook.com interview with Phil Klemmer:

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/04/03/legends-of-tomorrow-showrunner-compares-season-3-to-game-of-thro/

Ah, so perhaps my dream of seeing Nate die a gruesome death for realsies may yet come to pass? Kewl.

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

1 hour ago, apinknightmare said:

I watched to see who ~died, but was of course disappointed.

But did Laurel for real say "I know" when Sara told her that she was always the better, stronger one or whatever? LMAO

She said it more towards Sara being damaged. 

insomniadreams88

insomniadreams88

I liked the Sara/Sara conversation a lot more than the Sara/Laurel scene. 

And I really hope we see Rip again. Let him take a break, fine. But I want to see him next season. And I'd like to see him in the crossover interacting with the other teams. 

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Lokiberry

Lokiberry

30 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Thanks @Lokiberry. I was hoping there was a reason for him leaving and ithat it was only temporary.

I'm sorry, I think you misunderstood. The final season of Broadchurch has already filmed and is airing now. That's why he was gone for the first half of the season. I don't know why he's gone now.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

At least they didn't kill him off.  Rip can come back to do guest shots at least.  Crosses fingers.  They tried to set it up as if him leaving was a happy occasion.  Him surviving at least was.  

I like that this Mick actually never betrayed his team.  I also loved the return of the Ray/Rory bromance.  He's going to get that hug one day!

I thought for a minute that the Waverider was going to end up in National City on Supergirl's earth. Time being fractured can be interesting as well but I really wonder if they know how often they are just copying Doctor Who episodes.  

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Lokiberry

Lokiberry

4 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

At least they didn't kill him off.  Rip can come back to do guest shots at least.  Crosses fingers.  They tried to set it up as if him leaving was a happy occasion.  Him surviving at least was.  

I like that this Mick actually never betrayed his team.  I also loved the return of the Ray/Rory bromance.  He's going to get that hug one day!

I thought for a minute that the Waverider was going to end up in National City on Supergirl's earth. Time being fractured can be interesting as well but I really wonder if they know how often they are just copying Doctor Who episodes.  

Yeah, the copying is getting a bit much, particularly since their version tends to fall really short of the original.

Last season, I appreciated that they let us know right away that Wentworth Miller had really left the show and there wouldn't be any timey wimey business to bring him back (as a regular that is), and I hope they do the same with AD. I'm 99% sure he's gone for good, but I'd like confirmation so I can decide what I'm going to be doing on tuesday nights next season.

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way2interested

way2interested

Just now, bijoux said:

Who bit it?

If I'm inferring things correctly, Amaya is alive and the to do about how is her death going to affect Arrow's episode 415 resulted in nothing?

The time aberration versions of the team. As for Amaya, it was kind of strange. She's alive, and she and Nate are now together, but she's not planning on going back to her time any time soon. She just mentioned how if the timeline wants/needs her back in her time to fulfill her destiny (village, kids, grandkids, etc.) it will somehow bring her back in time to do that, which kind of takes all the responsibility of that subplot abruptly away after it's been a problem for the last few episodes.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

(edited)

Basically once they changed the timeline and stopped Doomworld from happening, the Legends that were from that now thwarted timeline ceased to exist.  (It is funny that of the group, only Sara's double survived long enough to fade away, lol)

On Flash for reasons they have NEVER explained, the same rules don't seem to apply so you are forgiven for not understanding time remnants.  They DON'T make sense on The Flash.  Thankfully, LoT kept it pretty simple for the Legends, even if Eobard even existing doesn't make sense.  Something to do with the speed force?? Oh well, time caught up to him finally as well.    

Edited by BkWurm1
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wonderwall

wonderwall

The only thing I took from Legends:

Sara: Legends never die
Laurel: *is dead and can never be saved and her statue has been blown up too*

Heh. If this is how MG will write for KC/LL I'm ok with it LOL. Episode after episode of LL slander. I'm here for it. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

As I understand it, if time gets changed in the past so that you never should have existed at all, you're done for. In Sara's case, she drifted away, in Eobard Thawne's case, destroyed by whatever that thing was.  (Or what @BkWurm1 said).

57 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Who bit it?

If I'm inferring things correctly, Amaya is alive and the to do about how is her death going to affect Arrow's episode 415 resulted in nothing?

Everything that was Oh noes! teased about the episode ended up as nothing.  No one really bit it, only the doubles and they would have ceased to exist anyway once they changed the timeline.  Amaya is alive and that tease about affecting it affecting Arrow faded away as Doomworld Sara did.  Just like Flashpoint never really affect Arrow other than Baby Sara. These EPs really have to stop teasing real consequences that never pan out (See: death, season 4).

What I really couldn't understand about the episode is that if time problems happen when people meet their own selves, why did they keep hanging out with their doubles in the episode?  Rip even encouraged Doomworld Sara to talk to Original Sara. Why not just keep people apart from their past/future selves?

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

15 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

Amaya is alive and that tease about affecting it affecting Arrow faded away as Doomworld Sara did. 

Which really doesn't make sense since her not going back and rejoining her timeline and setting the needed events in motion for her granddaughter to exist and go to Star City to help SHOULD affect Arrow.  It just should.  But I suppose we are now in the murky area of maybe she was always meant to go traveling in time and doing that and being with Nate was already part of her destiny.  

Basically the show kicked the answers down the road and shrugged their shoulders.  Either she's now the one character that isn't allowed to die or they just don't care if DD kept William or not.  Not sure if I do either.  ;)

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tennisgurl

tennisgurl

I still love LoT, but I'm going to be super bitter if this is really the end of Rip. It made WAY more sense to have Amaya and Nate go back to the 40s, and bring in some new people to replace them, instead of Rip leaving, feeling like he has no purpose on the team anymore. Not that I don't like Nate and Amaya, and I'm glad they will still be around, but they seem a lot more expendable then Rip, whos the only one with actual time travel experience from before this year. If someone had to leave anyway. Plus, it means no more Sara/Rip, and that just breaks my heart. I will take them over the forced Nate/Amaya romance any day.

I just don't think about the time travel stuff too hard. This isn't really a show that's super interested in making sense, so I'm alright with plot holes. I get more annoyed by wonky characterization then I do time travel continuity issues. Oh well. LoT is flawed as hell, but I still love the characters, and its still my favorite Arrowverse show. See you next season!

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tennisgurl

tennisgurl

(edited)

@Starfish35 Made a really good point over in the Legends of Tomorrow thread, that the Arrowverse struggles with writing romances, but does well at writing friendships. That's got me thinking about romance in the Arrowverse, and I think the problems is that the writers tend to focus on these very High Drama romances, with lots of drama and break ups and make ups and life and death and parallel dimensions, arguing, Romeo and Juliet drama, and such, with the occasional breaks to make out. It seems like they often see two characters, and just decided "these people will be in love now", and immediately set about making their relationships are difficult as possible. So difficult, that's its hard to relate to the romance, because we rarely see them acting like a real couple. Its all tearful declarations of love or tearful breakups. They often don't even have a real dating phase, its just straight to I Love You to Near Death Experiences. Granted, those kind of issues are inevitable to an extent in these kinds of shows, but we know its possible for them to build up a relationship naturally, without pointless drama, because we have seen them doing that when they decide to build up friendships between characters. These are allowed to grow organically, with characters just hanging out or bantering like normal people, and it makes them and their relationship relatable, despite the fantastic circumstances. Friendships still have drama, but much less so than any of the romances, and they are (usually) around more understandable circumstances. Its why I think many Arrow fans (and eventually the writers) latched onto Oliver/Felicity instead of the planned Laurel/Oliver, because, while L/O were engaged in High Drama, F/O were actually building a friendship that seemed like a real connection that real people would have. It turning romantic seemed like a natural extension of a natural relationship that had been built up with funny banter, hang out time, and the feeling that these two really enjoyed hanging out together. Things went sore for them, to me, when they became a High Drama romance, and we lost a lot of that human connection, and got tons of drama (death! paralysis! baby mama drama!), which turned a lot of people off of them. Like how over on LoT, I feel like the two main romances (Ray/Kendra and Nate/Amaya) didn't really work because they were too High Drama, with the characters basically going from zero to I Love You in two seconds flat. And it immediately turns into yet more drama. However, in the parts of fandom I frequent, most people this season have been more interested in seeing a Rip/Sara romance, because they actually seem like friends who joke around and hang out and talk to each other like normal people (as normal as circumstances will allow) instead of people who have been designated as Now in Love. Because people like couples that actually like being around each other, and have more in common then just being around and hot. Friendships don't have to worry about that.

Its not that all romances are ruined or have failed. I always liked Roy/Thea, despite their drama, and I still root for Iris/Barry and Oliver/Felicity, because when the writers just allow them to be normal couples, they still work. When they embrace more of the friendship side, they are back to being entertaining and likable couples. Its just frustrating because, as I said, I think they're great at writing really realistic, likable platonic friendships, but they SUCK at long term romance.

Edited by tennisgurl
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Proteus

Proteus

I'd have loved a Sara/Rip pairing. Sigh.

I remember one of Legends producers say they wouldn't do another bad romance this season like they did last year with Ray/Kendra. If they actually think Nate/Amaya, two newbies falling into a love story was a good idea, they are wrong.

But I think it's mainly because the producers love Nick Zano and Nate so much. I remember before the season began they couldn't stop praising him and saying how better the show is with his inclusion. I actually think he's one of the worst things about season 2.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

Kara/Barry always remind me Hero/Claudio or Celia/Oliver or any of Shakespeare's's junior lovers.

4 hours ago, Proteus said:

But I think it's mainly because the producers love Nick Zano and Nate so much. I remember before the season began they couldn't stop praising him and saying how better the show is with his inclusion. I actually think he's one of the worst things about season 2.

I agree so much. He's not as bad as he was at the start of the season when he was ridiculously Gary Stu but he's still the character I feel is the most expendable and the one who the producers love the most.

6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Which really doesn't make sense since her not going back and rejoining her timeline and setting the needed events in motion for her granddaughter to exist and go to Star City to help SHOULD affect Arrow.  It just should.  But I suppose we are now in the murky area of maybe she was always meant to go traveling in time and doing that and being with Nate was already part of her destiny.  

Basically the show kicked the answers down the road and shrugged their shoulders.  Either she's now the one character that isn't allowed to die or they just don't care if DD kept William or not.  Not sure if I do either.  ;)

Technically it doesn't matter if she spends a couple of years on the Waverider as long as she lands back in 1942 when she's still of child-bearing age. For all we know, Nate could be Mari's grandfather.

But that's a very good point that they can't let Amaya die now since they're emphasizing that you can't screw up the timeline.  Are the Legends going to make that their priority now, that it's more important savving Amaya than the mission?

tv echo

tv echo

From https://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/ ...

bones-bb asked:
Hey Marc! Sorry if this has already been asked and answered in some way, but what are the chances of Nate being Mari's grandfather? Or am I way off in thinking that? #LoT #Arrow #Vixen
I really need to master putting GIFs in these things.  Imagine a whistling one…

blackcanarydinah asked:
First, I just want to say Dinah (Juliana) is amazing and she's an amazing Black Canary and I hope we get to see more of her. Second, does Sara (Lance) have a middle name and do you know what it is? Season 5 is amazing!
So glad you like Dinah/Juliana.  We love her, too.
Sara DOES have a middle name.  In my perfect world, it’s my daughter Sara’s middle name.
And thanks for the kind words!

tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Here's my nonspoilery (no spoilers as to plot) review of the tie-in novel, Arrow: A Generation of Vipers, by Susan and Clay Griffith, which MG has said is part of show canon...

This novel is a sequel to The Flash: The Haunting of Barry Allen. From what I can tell, the events in these two books take place sometime between 408 and 415 of Arrow.  Oliver & Felicity are still very much a couple, Felicity is still CEO of Palmer Tech, Baby Sara Diggle still exists, and Team Arrow consists of Oliver, Diggle, Felicity and Thea.(*) There's also a hint that Oliver already knows about his son at this time. Other notable characters include Lyla and Malcolm. Of course, Barry, Cisco and Caitlin also appear in both books, and Iris and Joe appear in the Flash book. The Arrow book includes flashback scenes (of course), which feature Tommy, Moira, Robert and Walter, as well as several significant island flashbacks that feature Yao Fei. The Queen mansion is still a burned husk in the present day story.

(* For some reason, Laurel is mysteriously absent from these books. She's not a part of the team, she's not a part of the flashbacks, and she isn't even mentioned, iirc.)

This novel is what I wish the show would be. It has plenty of dark, gritty moments, lots of tension and fight scenes. It also has lighter, humorous moments. There's a mystery or two to unravel, as well as a new character from Oliver's pre-island past who turns up in the present. The characters act in character for the most part. But notably, this novel has heart. There's the mentor-mentee relationship between Oliver and Barry (think first Flash/Arrow crossover) that is further developed. We get more insights into their 'big brother-little brother' dynamic and how they help each other, both in crime-fighting and character development. Oliver & Felicity are depicted much better in the book than in the show this season, as a couple who love each other, support each other, and work beautifully with each other to unravel the puzzle and defeat the bad guys. At the same time, the book notes the significant differences between Oliver and Barry, as well as the differences between Oliver and Felicity. In addition, Lyla and ARGUS play a key role in this novel (there's even a Felicity and Lyla team-up!). We also see how ARGUS and Team Arrow don't always have the same goals (perhaps foreshadowing future conflict in the show?).

So, yes, I enjoyed reading this novel. I also read the Flash prequel novel and enjoyed that as well - Team Arrow makes an appearance about halfway through that book and stays to the end. I got a kick out of the character descriptions for Oliver, Diggle and Felicity!

Oh, and we learn from the Arrow book (Chapter 20) that Robert Queen was the one who hired Felicity to work at Queen Consolidated. (**)  So she started working at QC before Oliver got on The Queen's Gambit. She would've been around 19 or 20 then. We know from The Flash, episode 104, that Felicity ranked second in the National Informative Technology Competition at age 19 and that she graduated from M.I.T. with a master’s degree in cyber security and computer sciences. However, I don't believe we know when she graduated. So Felicity started working at QC either while she was still a student at M.I.T. or, if she graduated early, immediately upon graduation.

(** Extracted dialogue - Felicity: "Robert Queen was good at finding talent and keeping it to himself. Nothing personal." Oliver: "He didn't build Queen Consolidated by accident. And he hired you, didn't he?" Felicity: "Very true....")

Edited by tv echo
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