Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[Chaser]

I'm confused. Per my understanding, Flashpoint set up New52. New52 was not well received by the comic community. Why are comic fans excited about this?

[quarks]

Because we will finally get to see Superman and Wonder Woman dating on a CW show....

....oh, wait.

(Although if this all leads to Clark texting Kara over on Supergirl that he and Diana are going out to dinner, I will laugh.)

[kismet]

Can I just have one moment when Snart meets BA in the time whammy place and calls him a dumbass and then fixes everything with a snarky one-liner and a wink?

It's a shame Rocky Horror is going to be on FOX and not the WB because a musical Flarrowverse rendition of "Time Warp" seems like a fun and timely promo :) And we know most of the Flarrowverse can belt out a tune.

[apinknightmare]

11 minutes ago, popgoesculture said:

Also, with this reset, didn't Barry just doom a whole other Earth to life with Zoom, since Zoom didn't die with Barry resetting the timeline?

This finale is such a dumb idea.

I think Zoom got turned into Black Flash and was sucked into the Speed Force, not another Earth?

[AyChihuahua]

10 minutes ago, Morena said:

if they want to reverse something in Arrow, they could kill Laurel and let Tommy alive

Colin Donnell's show was renewed. 

[Lokiberry]

Well, that doesn't mean they couldn't still kill her. Maybe they both died.

[Morena]

9 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

If they were really bold, they could use this to change things that need changing: fix a few mistakes, streamline a few stories. Iris and Barry weren't raised as brother and sister, both his parents aren't dead. Maybe Laurel died earlier and Sara's the Black Canary(I know I'm harping on this, but a girl's gotta have a dream), maybe Moira or Robert isn't dead. They could eliminate or alter other stories. Maybe Oliver never knocked up what'shername. Maybe he never even dated Laurel. I mean, if we're going to dream, let's dream big. On LoT,  maybe Snart's not dead. 

Ever thing would be mostly the same somehow: Barry is still the Flash and has a team because reasons; it's the same with Oliver and Team Arrow. There are changes, but the shows still function the same way.

 Laurel is dead. Tommy lives. Malcolm sometime dies. Tommy turns into Dark Arrow. Oliver falls in love with Felicity (some things never change)

3 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

Colin Donnell's show was renewed. 

he could appear in a few episodes, no?

Edited May 25, 2016 by Morena

[Primal Slayer]

I am surprised that we havent gotten any interviews from AK/GB on this and what it will/won't mean for the Flarrowverse.   

[Morena]

3 minutes ago, Lokiberry said:

Well, that doesn't mean they couldn't still kill her. Maybe they both died.

or he could leave the city because she died and come back at the end of the series

[Morena]

3 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I am surprised that we havent gotten any interviews from AK/GB on this and what it will/won't mean for the Flarrowverse.   

I think it happened after Arrow season finale

[calliope1975]

18 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I am surprised that we havent gotten any interviews from AK/GB on this and what it will/won't mean for the Flarrowverse.   

That's what I'm wondering as well. Maybe they're waiting until Arrow's finale to comment? Or they're going to let people speculate until October - please Deity, no. At the very least, we better get some sort of idea during Comic Con.

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I am surprised that we havent gotten any interviews from AK/GB on this and what it will/won't mean for the Flarrowverse.   

Probably waiting for Arrow's finale to air.

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Probably waiting for Arrow's finale to air.

Noooooot a good sign

[kismet]

Maybe the

Spoiler

happy thoughts

of Arrow will be magical enough to defeat DD and reign in BA's ego and reverse the whole time reset.

[kismet]

Geoff Johns is on Late Night with Seth Myers (NBC) to discuss DC Rebirth. The episode on right now but he is the 3rd guest, Seth is still doing his opening stuff.

Edited May 25, 2016 by kismet
because he was the 3rd guest

[Starfish35]

Well I guess now we know why GG said he needed to take a break from the character after that episode. ;)

If I had to make a guess, I would say that this is probably going to have minimal impact on the other three shows.  I don't think they can afford to run seven episodes of a completely different show until the crossover fixes everything.  If the crossover was at the beginning of the season, then maybe?  But I just can't see how they could make this work.  

Some small changes maybe.  And yeah, maybe they will use this to explain Supergirl's relocation.  But beyond that....I just can't see it.  They've always, for the most part, kept their storylines separate.  They can't even get help from their friends to stop a nuke, for goodness' sake.  I just don't see them making major changes based on what happens on one show.  

Of course, I'm exhausted right now so that might just be a failure of imagination on my part.  I gues we'll see.

I do think it probably will be how they explain Snart coming back.  Which disappoints me a little - I was kind of hoping for the "impossible girl" scenario - lol.  

But hey, if Sara's costume does turn from white to black next season all will be forgiven. 

(ok maybe not all) ;)

[TimetravellingBW]

1 hour ago, Lokiberry said:

If they were really bold, they could use this to change things that need changing: fix a few mistakes, streamline a few stories. Iris and Barry weren't raised as brother and sister, both his parents aren't dead. Maybe Laurel died earlier and Sara's the Black Canary(I know I'm harping on this, but a girl's gotta have a dream), maybe Moira or Robert isn't dead. They could eliminate or alter other stories. Maybe Oliver never knocked up what'shername. Maybe he never even dated Laurel. I mean, if we're going to dream, let's dream big. On LoT,  maybe Snart's not dead. 

Ever thing would be mostly the same somehow: Barry is still the Flash and has a team because reasons; it's the same with Oliver and Team Arrow. There are changes, but the shows still function the same way.

Oh no, this makes me dream big dreams that will never happen. But for arguments sake...If they change anything that happened in Arrow - please, please let it be that Moira is alive. Killing her was one of the biggest mistakes of the show imo. Having her back would add that extra depth Arrow is missing. As much as I love Tommy I don't necessarily feel the need for him to return. Of all Arrow deaths his was the most noble and made a lasting impact on Oliver, with his no killing rule. So I'd definitely take Moira returning over him. 

Sara as the Black Canary would be great, I mean all they need to do is have the Lance parents decide to save the middle name Dinah for Daughter 2 instead of Daughter 1. Whoops, there goes the only justification for Laurel becoming the BC instead of Sara. Laurel could die in the same way or in Sara's place or Tommys place or even Moira's. Really not fussy. 

All that said I can't seem them resetting major events and characters across all the shows because of the Flash. It seems too far-fetched and logistically difficult. Even small things - like Laurels sonic device happening on the Flash - make things complicated. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[ruby24]

The fact that they're not doing any post-show interviews is bad sign, imo. It tells me this might actually take longer than The Flash season premiere to wrap itself up and it may affect Arrow and Legends and Supergirl after all.

I'm still hoping for a quick resolution though, because I really don't want to spend seven episodes in another universe either (and I'm a Flash watcher, but I can only imagine that Arrow-only viewers would be baffled by something like that). Maybe a Flash two-parter, and it fixes things with minimal changes, like the Supergirl and Snart stuff.

[quarks]

Well, it's certainly a novel way to get us all to tune into the Arrow finale.

[Starfish35]

Do they usually do post-finale interviews?  I can't remember.  I know for sure they didn't after season two of Arrow, because I remember looking for them.  But I can't remember what normal practice has been.

[wonderwall]

LOL Grant Gustin is great

[BkWurm1]

44 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Well I guess now we know why GG said he needed to take a break from the character after that episode. ;)

If I had to make a guess, I would say that this is probably going to have minimal impact on the other three shows.  I don't think they can afford to run seven episodes of a completely different show until the crossover fixes everything.  If the crossover was at the beginning of the season, then maybe?  But I just can't see how they could make this work.  

Some small changes maybe.  And yeah, maybe they will use this to explain Supergirl's relocation.  But beyond that....I just can't see it.  They've always, for the most part, kept their storylines separate.  They can't even get help from their friends to stop a nuke, for goodness' sake.  I just don't see them making major changes based on what happens on one show.  

Of course, I'm exhausted right now so that might just be a failure of imagination on my part.  I gues we'll see.

I do think it probably will be how they explain Snart coming back.  Which disappoints me a little - I was kind of hoping for the "impossible girl" scenario - lol.  

But hey, if Sara's costume does turn from white to black next season all will be forgiven. 

(ok maybe not all) ;)

What if they did a crossover at the start of the season?  I wish I could actually remember how Supergirl ended, lol, then I'd know if it was even possible or not.  If they did a crossover right out of the gate they could immediately introduce the Supergirl viewers to the Arrowverse. 

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, Lokiberry said:

Maybe Oliver never knocked up what'shername.

Or at least never lied about it. Which has always been the problem. Unless Barry was somehow there to hand Oliver a faulty condom, he had nothing to do with the pregnancy. Remove him from the timeline though and he's not there to run the test for Oliver, tell him Felicity breaks up with him over it and get Oliver to CC at all.

But no, there is no way for this to reflect on Arrow in significant ways. Maybe there will be some small things shown as being different but the big things will be presented as being fixed points in time. Although I doubt even that will expand beyond The Flash.

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

What if they did a crossover at the start of the season?  I wish I could actually remember how Supergirl ended, lol, then I'd know if it was even possible or not.  If they did a crossover right out of the gate they could immediately introduce the Supergirl viewers to the Arrowverse. 

With this four show crossover thing, I'd prefer it than when the season really gets going. But the ratings with the current crossover schedule seem to be working for the network, so I'm thinking no. Nothing beyond Oliver showing up in the first episodes of The Flash or LoT.

[wonderwall]

I kind of feel bad for BC fans lol This gives them hope. But after all the EPs saying she's gone and not coming back and how there's no 'easy fix' and the overtime they spent on LoT explaining that she can't come back, it's obvious she isn't going to. 

I also feel bad for Arrow fans who are worried about the clusterfuck that the Flash just unleashed (aka most of us on this board, woe is us). I honestly don't think I can continue watching Arrow if it's greatly influenced by The Flash. I don't want to go into the 5th season and have a do-over. Unless it brings Moira back (which is highly unlikely because I doubt Susanna would want to come back), NOPE. 

I wouldn't mind a 'what if' episode. But that's as much as I can handle. 

[kismet]

I actually wonder if LoT will be heavily involved in helping Flash fix the time universe. If Snart will be pulled in to help everything and that is why he died and is the floater. Basically share him between Flash & LoT. It's audience could use a boost, and if you connect it very closely to the Flash then perhaps the audience will bleed over and become LoT fans.

I do wonder if this ending was not done to bring in SG, but now that opportunity strikes they will make it the reason.

I feel like Arrow will be naive to the effects until the Crossover, when perhaps they fix it. Not opposed to the crossovers starting out the season, but I do think it should be in Dec/Jan instead. Let the "brave" Flash writers write themselves out of this conundrum.

Flash has never carried its weight and burden of keeping the Flarrowverse afloat as a unit/family or shared universe. It has benefited from Arrow to get its start and then Arrow has done all the heavy lifting. Maybe it's Flash's turn and this is the first step. Since it was probably always going to fall on Flash to bring in SG.

Honestly, if Arrow gets to focus on itself and is insulated from BA's stupidity until we're needed for the save perhaps it will be the best solution. Arrow will get to be Arrow. And the Flarrowverse will work itself out.

Edited May 25, 2016 by kismet
typo

[Trini]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

1. This doesn't affect Arrow or Legends of Tomorrow at all.

That's a problem, since the CW is basically selling these as four interconnected shows, with crossovers and so on - admittedly, not always successfully. 

...

4. Next season of Flash starts out with Barry running very very fast and resetting the reset.

5. Some mixture of all of the above.

In theory, this should affect all the shows, but for practical purposes, I think Flash will end up in its own separate universe/timeline. Which will have to be reset back to previous continuity, but how long that will take is the real question.
 

2 hours ago, Chaser said:

I'm confused. Per my understanding, Flashpoint set up New52. New52 was not well received by the comic community. Why are comic fans excited about this?

I haven't read the comics, but I think it's mainly excitement/surprise/interest that the TV universe is referencing and attempting this major, universe-altering story. And it has the potential to do a lot of things; like bringing Supergirl into the Arrow-verse, for example.
 

2 hours ago, quarks said:

Because we will finally get to see Superman and Wonder Woman dating on a CW show....

....oh, wait.

(Although if this all leads to Clark texting Kara over on Supergirl that he and Diana are going out to dinner, I will laugh.)

Ha! Well, now that's part of my wishlist for next season.  :)

[kismet]

Could it be possible for BA time remanent to spend all of s3a as BA on Earth 1 and no one really notice or dismiss differences?

Arrow & SG could spend their a seasons on their Earths generally unaffected. And then the Real BA, LOT gang & Snart show up in the crossover with some big news about BA s selfishness.  Everyone teams up and fixes BAs mistakes again, the earths return back to their normals no threat of utter destruction. AND most importantly everyone makes it home for their Holiday episodes, which will hopefully be happy and not tragic. Except flash because they deserve bah hum bug holiday. 

I don't read comics and I've barely paid attention to the facts on s2 of Flash, so I'm asking is it possible to have something like this happen. Or have basically all the Earths imploded because of BA??

[BkWurm1]

Quote

 And it has the potential to do a lot of things; like bringing Supergirl into the Arrow-verse, for example.

I'm good with them having a way to contact each other in extreme emergencies (or when they want to go out for ice cream) but Supergirl's universe needs to stay on it's own earth otherwise both Arrow and Flash are the worst heroes ever for not always calling in the big gun. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm not really concerned about Barry's idiocy over on The Flash screwing up anything on Arrow.  I think that the events of the finale will either be undone quickly, or Arrow will just completely ignore everything going on over in Central City.  And lol, no, I don't think Barry going back in time means that Laurel might not be dead.  Like I said, I suspect we're going to ignore Barry's dumbass season finale life choices.

 But let's pretend that Arrow completely throws the last four years out the window, shits on its audience, and changes the entire plan for the fifth season to keep continuity with another show. I still think that either 1.) Laurel will still be dead in this new reality or 2.) Laurel will be alive, but will only be mentioned and not shown.  MG finally got permission from the higher-ups to get rid of KC for good after four seasons.  I just don't see him ever bringing her back in a full-time capacity.

Edited May 25, 2016 by SonofaBiscuit

[BkWurm1]

I like what the Flash reset likely will do to Arrow fan fiction, it really offers a lot of inspiration that I intend to take advantage of over the summer since i love what if stories, but no, unless they really do the crossover in the first episode, there won't be any lasting effects on Arrow.  We went through all these questions last year and I can't imagine we're going to get any kind of a different answer. 

[wonderwall]

I really do wonder what the general audience thinks of the twist. Will they be excited like comic book fans are (and it's important to note that said fans know the potential of this story while the main audience doesn't)? Or will they be like my husband and be thoroughly confused and fed up that Flash just reset the timeline and 2 years of development has gone down the drain?

I guess season 3 premiere ratings will tell... 

[Ceylon5]

2 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Or will they be like my husband and be thoroughly confused and fed up that Flash just reset the timeline and 2 years of development has gone down the drain?

My brother-in-law had this reaction to The Flash's idiotic finale last season.  He was so annoyed with Barry and the dumb storyline that he hasn't watched the show since.

They did the timeline reset thing on Fringe, which is an infinitely better written show than The Flash, and even there it was a hard sell for me.  They did let Olivia eventually remember and revert to her pre-reset self for Peter's sake, but the rest of the characters didn't.  Which means you're essentially throwing out the whole history of the show and starting again, which seems hugely counter-productive to me, especially with a really invested audience.

I'm mostly just tired of Barry being so breathtakingly selfish and dumb.  The point in the episode where they were saying that the race was just a ruse to power the thingy that would destroy all the universes, and Barry says, "I'm doing it anyway and I'll win", was where he just lost me forever.  Seriously, everyone just said it didn't matter who won, Barry, as that wasn't the point of the race, and you say you're going to do it anyway?  And even if winning was a way to potentially stop the universe destruction (which they specifically said was not the case), how on infinite earths was the risk that he'd lose not considered to be too great?

Then they go ahead with the race and suddenly the race is irrelevant and half of Barry is magically undoing the unstoppable universe destroying thingy that he deliberately set off for no reason and the other half of him is magically winning a fist fight against Zoom, and I'm thinking "Well, why didn't you just beat him up in the first place??? Why all the risky races, and remnants and other horribly stupid whatsits if you could have just punched him in the face 20 episodes ago and finished things off that way?".  And were we supposed to think Barry was heroic because his remnant died stopping the stupid thing he pointlessly started?  Give me a break.  I wish the creepy things that took Zoom had taken Barry too.  He deserved it just as much.

Side issue: if these speedsters can reset time so easily, why didn't Zoom just go back in time on his earth and save his Mom?

Anyway, I'm definitely not cut out for this level of comic book suspension of disbelief.  That finale was 2 parts boring, 1 part unbelievably aggravating and no part entertaining.

[looptab]

There was also some serious bad acting. I'm not one of Danielle Panabaker's detractors, I don't find her great but neither do I find her terrible most of the time. But the scene when she was baiting Zoom I was like, "Is she reading from a teleprompter?". Plus Zoom's speech just before the race..just ugh.

[bijoux]

The more I read about The Flash, the more it confuses me. Like, does everybody have a remnant and then they can just be used for cannon fodder, without it affecting the, let's say, original person? And Zoom lost his mom as well so he's like Barry's mirror image in all regards? And somewhere out there Barry's dad is not Barry's dad, but Jay Garrick and he may or may not also be a speedster? I'm getting a migrane.

[apinknightmare]

7 minutes ago, bijoux said:

The more I read about The Flash, the more it confuses me. Like, does everybody have a remnant and then they can just be used for cannon fodder, without it affecting the, let's say, original person? And Zoom lost his mom as well so he's like Barry's mirror image in all regards? And somewhere out there Barry's dad is not Barry's dad, but Jay Garrick and he may or may not also be a speedster? I'm getting a migrane.

 

Time remnants are the most pull-it-out-of-your-ass plot hole-laden devices I've ever seen, but basically yes, everyone would have a time remnant, because it's past you. But then you have to be willing to die (or kill yourself - I can't remember how Zoom explained it), in order to use them. Basically it's a past version of yourself that you convince to come into the present to die for you for whatever reason. Which makes no sense, because if past you died, then current you should also die. Barry did an incredibly half-assed job of trying to explain it, which was basically trying to pass it off as "this is too high-minded for you, Simpleton" when the real reason it can't be explained is because it is DUMB AS HELL. 

[bijoux]

That sounds really awful. You're basically manipulating a version of yourself to die in your place. 

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

That sounds really awful. You're basically manipulating a version of yourself to die in your place. 

I'm not even entirely sure it's manipulating - from what I understand (even though we've never been shown one of these time remnant convos), they all know what they're doing/dying for in whatever time they get called to. 

[bijoux]

That makes them sound like sect followers. And if we get into the mechanics of it, isn't it wiser for the future version to die so that the past version can have time to alter things, whereas with the past version dying the future one should be erased from existence?

[apinknightmare]

Well, so far the purpose of time remnants has been to trick someone into believing the remnant is the real person, or, in Barry's case last night, to get the remnant to do something super dangerous that would kill him so that Barry could continue doing something else. So, as we've seen them used so far - as duplicates - them going back and changing time wouldn't really be the point.

[bijoux]

I honestly see no logic in the way they're using them either. I get what you're saying, I just don't think the show has thought this through at all.

[bijoux]

bwahahaha.

[RussianRoulette]

5 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I honestly see no logic in the way they're using them either. I get what you're saying, I just don't think the show has thought this through at all.

I completely fail to understand the point of this entire plot. It boggles my mind. 

I mean why take the time to make sure that all the shows are intricated to not follow-up on that? OTH, how could that even be possible without gigantic plot holes? Ugh.

That being said I certainly do not want any more time travel stuff on Arrow. 

[Sunshine]

Since Arrow's 3.01 romance happened in Flash 2.22-2.23 maybe it's just to remove Barry from the current timeline so that Wally or whomever can join the team and become their version of a superhero similar to Arrow 3.09 to 3.13.  No one else is needed if Barry is there to "run Barry run". 

[Mellowyellow]

I'm lost now.  If they reset the time line then when does it reset to? From when Barry was born? When his mum died or when he became the Flash?

[dtissagirl]

5 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm lost now.  If they reset the time line then when does it reset to? From when Barry was born? When his mum died or when he became the Flash?

Technically it changes everything from the point his mother died in 2000. Henry never goes to prison. Barry never lives with Joe and Iris. Etc.

[Mellowyellow]

But then the basic Arrow could stay sameish since their lives never intertwined. Arrow would change in the episode where Barry comes to Starling City.

[Sakura12]

Maybe they just reset Arrow to non-superpowered grounded level. It was Barry that really introduced the super powers. 

[quarks]

Yeah, technically, it shouldn't affect all that much on Arrow until season two.  At that point, if, as JohnFTS has suggested over on the Flash forum, the entire experience sparked Barry's interest in strange things, Barry still might pop over to 208 and 209, although the conversations about his parents would be different and he'd have less of an excuse for lying about things.

It gets much trickier after that. In Flash, the Barry that rushed back in time at the end of the first season vanished after his mother DIDN'T get murdered, suggesting that without his mother's murder, Barry didn't become the Flash in Arrow season two/three or Flash season one. That matches with what Reverse-Flash said - that in the original timeline before Reverse-Flash went back in time to kill Barry's mother, Barry didn't become Flash until later. That impacts everything that happened in the crossover episodes in season three. Some of this can be muddled through - Team Arrow finds another way to stop all five Boomerang bombs without superspeed, Laurel has Ray Palmer or Curtis fix up the Black Canary collar, for instance, but not everything.

Sakura12, I love your idea more than you know, but Arrow's also dealing with magic now, so...I'm not optimistic.

[Morrigan2575]

19 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I'm lost now.  If they reset the time line then when does it reset to? From when Barry was born? When his mum died or when he became the Flash?

 

12 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Technically it changes everything from the point his mother died in 2000. Henry never goes to prison. Barry never lives with Joe and Iris. Etc.

it's hard to predict because the writer can and will change what they want. However, if we follow the logic, Barry doesn't go live with Iris/Joe, Barry's dad doesn't go to jail, Barry probably doesn't become a CSU.

For Arrow, Barry isn't obsessed with freaky things, doesn't go to SC to investigate Mirakuru break-in, doesn't meet TA and isn't there to save Oliver from the blood clot (or whatever) 

From that we also have no Thawn as Wells, no particle accelerator and no Flash or Meta Humans.  On the brightside, Eddie should be alive and Joe's partner. 

[Chaser]

Barry found out Oliver was the Arrow when Felicity pulls him in to save Olivers life. If things are reset and Barry never goes to SC then Oliver dies in that episode.