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Celebrating 25 Years Of The West Wing

Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

ArctisTor

By ArctisTor
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apinknightmare
apinknightmare

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

And then someone tells him that what he did was okay because of reasons, or that he can't keep feeling guilty, he just has to move forward. Like, no, just...go ahead and feel really guilty for awhile?

SleepDeprived
SleepDeprived

Hey, now... Listen. The practice of proper etiquette during an impromptu wedding officiated by your best friend in a park, right after the funeral of a beloved colleague, is of the utmost importance,

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nksarmi

nksarmi

(edited)

Not great but IMO better than Arrow does. 

 

Also, I like Bats but I gotta go with the S

 

Really?  I can't agree. Flash is a total boys club - while I find Iris and Caitlyn (and even Linda) enjoyable, they are still largely after thoughts on that show.

 

On Arrow, while the women all relate to Oliver in some way and they are largely used to drive Oliver's story - they have their own stories as well and are not always stuck playing second fiddle to Diggle or Detective Lance.

 

Felicity is a fully drawn character who while she advances Oliver's story a great deal, never really has to be made to look foolish or weak to do it.

 

Loads of people might not like Laurel, but she has an independent career, she relates to her father as an equal, and she isn't part of the hero's team as a sidekick or support member but rather someone who he didn't want there and eventually had to accept because the others wanted her.  While we know her skills aren't where they should be - she is written to be a fully realized superhero.

 

Sara is a badass who really probably could kick Oliver's butt if push came to shove.  She is highly skilled and independent of Oliver - not someone who is there to prop his story.

 

Thea has been written as a victim and unfortunately the show has not really dealt with that properly, but she is also shown as capable and talented be it as a business woman or hero.  She has also probably gotten the most character development of all the Arrow women over the years and certainly more than Iris or Caitlyn on Flash.

 

Furthermore, the other women, rather dead or alive, good or evil, were usually much more interesting than the ones we see on Flash.  I mean, just consider, Arrow has had Moira, Huntress, Shado, Amanda Waller, Isabel, Donna, Cupid, the cop he dated whose name escapes me, Tatsu/Katana, Nyssa, Sin, Vixen, and Lyla (there are probably some that I'm forgetting) - and heck, Ruve Adams looks like she's going to be interesting as well.

 

For all of my criticisms of Arrow - I can't say that poor use of women is among them.

Edited by nksarmi
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Starfish35

Starfish35

(edited)

Yes. I've not always appreciated the way the female characters on Arrow have been handled, and I think there's loads of room for improvement, but compared to Flash, they're doing fantastic. The Flash is so so so bad with its female characters. Someone, I think it was quarks, compared Flash to all the other Berlanti shows, and it came off by far the worst with the way its female characters were handled. :(

Edited by Starfish35
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jay741982

jay741982

I love Candice and Keiyan for saying Batman! He's been my number 1 hero since I was a little boy. I would love to hear the Arrow, Supergirl and LOT casts weigh in with their thoughts

Clearly the Wests know what's up.

Clearly the Wests know what's up.

Iris and Wally do Joe said Superman

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wingster55

wingster55

I think If Nyssa can't beat Oliver, how could Sara.

Felicity isn't a fully realized character though that's improving..before she was just quirks without any depth. Just recently her wheel chair arc wasn't. 

Laurel has a career that we rarely see and is constantly having to be less just so Oliver can save her or bail her out. 

Sara was a generic badass. 

Thea is constantly victimized and not in charge of her own stories. 

 

It's not enough just to say that they're competent at their job or vigilanteing (as Iris and Caitlyn are said to be as well)...we have to see it and have them be in charge of their own arc that preferably doesn't include Oliver a la Iris and her own family issues/work. 

 

And the rest aren't seen enough or were just plot devices. (Moira isn't included as she's no longer living)

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Trini

Trini

...

On Flash, Barry can be selfish and go back in time to try to save his mother from death while knowing his risking massive destruction and it's ok. Oh yea and in the process of dealing with that calamity, he opened pathways between multiple Earths, bringing an even bigger villain to his city and he gets pep talks galore.  Then he goes to Earth 2 to save Harry's daughter and goes off the rails, getting Earth 2 Joe killed and gets to yell at Harry about how he needs to be there for Earth 2 Iris instead of letting Earth 2 Barry handle that - because family is everything.  Yea, I like Barry - I do - but he's immature and selfish as anything and he never gets called out. ...

 

This keeps getting brought up, again and again. The entire Season 2 is the consequences of his choices in the Season 1 finale. The show/Barry even said so directly. Heroes do make mistakes,and I'm glad they are dealing with it.

 

-----

So far, I think Supergirl is the best at showing varied female relationships and roles.

 

All the DC shows have their strengths and weakness: Legends has been mostly fun (the last episode was a miss for me) but not very deep. I tried with Arrow, but if they can't even take their own characters seriously, why should I? At least The Flash knows it's ridiculous. I CAN'T with Gotham.

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

This keeps getting brought up, again and again. The entire Season 2 is the consequences of his choices in the Season 1 finale. The show/Barry even said so directly. Heroes do make mistakes,and I'm glad they are dealing with it.

 

He did bring it up, but didn't people pretty much excuse him for it? I might be misremembering, but I thought Joe basically acknowledged what happened but gave him a pass. I think there are just really stark differences between how Arrow and Flash handle the heroes making mistakes. Barry's are pretty much no big deal (even the pretty big deal of the singularity/mess/portal), while Oliver has to pay and pay and pay for every mistake he ever makes. 

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Sakura12

Sakura12

Bringing it up is not dealing with it. Like I said before the Flash is written like those "See Spot Run" books. "Oh, no Spot made a mistake", "It's okay, Spot. You're a good boy"

 

Out of all the Berlantiverse, the woman on the Flash are treated the worst. They just stand around waiting to be damseled or love interests and maybe once every couple episodes are allowed to do things before the dudebro bonding takes over. 

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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

(edited)

He did bring it up, but didn't people pretty much excuse him for it? I might be misremembering, but I thought Joe basically acknowledged what happened but gave him a pass. I think there are just really stark differences between how Arrow and Flash handle the heroes making mistakes. Barry's are pretty much no big deal (even the pretty big deal of the singularity/mess/portal), while Oliver has to pay and pay and pay for every mistake he ever makes. 

 

I think I've said this before, but: on Arrow, the characters take turns tearing Oliver down for his mistakes; on The Flash, the characters take turns absolving Barry of his. The supporting characters' reactions to the hero's actions are how the show tells us what to feel about something--Arrow usually wants us to see Oliver as wrong and needing to change (this is thankfully becoming less true), The Flash wants us to see Barry as right, or wrong but with his heart in the right place, and rarely in need of change (unless that change is "learn how to run faster").

 

Season 2 is showing the consequences of Barry's actions via Earth 2/Zoom, sure, but the show has rarely made that explicit. IIRC, Barry was feeling guilty in 201, and everyone took their turn assuring him it wasn't his fault and then the whole city threw him a celebration. The next time I remember him saying anything about the guilt was 14 episodes later. To me, that is not indicative of a guilt arc. By 215, it felt like the writers throwing a bone to people who've been complaining about it.

 

I too like a hero who makes mistakes and has room to grow, but that hero can't be the only one who sees it that way or he starts to seem bulletproof, especially in a relationship-sense. That's why the Everyone Gives Barry a Pep Talk trope is getting so old. Sometimes those people have every right to be upset with him instead of supportive, but instead they immediately forgive or absolve him of his mistakes so that they can prop him up. That tells me the show doesn't see anything Barry does as that bad.

Edited by Carrie Ann
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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

(edited)

 

 

Also, I like Bats but I gotta go with the S

People have been asking the who will win Superman vs Batman question forever and I always said Batman since I assumed he's just too big of a planner to not have as much Kryptonite up his utility belt as he needs but I was surprised that I guess the comics agreed with me?  This is based on watching a two part animated movie that came out in the last few years The Dark Knight Returns  Parts 1&2 (and it has nothing to do with Nolan's movie) and by the second part the big thing is the all out brawl between the two.  I can't help but wonder if that will be what they loosely base their fight around in the upcoming movie.  I'm sure if I cared more I could Google it and find out, but nope, this is the extent of my caring.  Lol.   

Edited by BkWurm1
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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

I guess if you like watching a show about male bonding and manpain then the Flash is the show for you.

I guess that explains why I've gone off The Flash because I find male bonding boring and it always seems to be about the manpain. Even when the plot should be about the female characters (Iris and her mother talking), it's still all about the men in their lives.  I really don't like how the show puts Oliver down all the time either.

 

The two worst things about The Flash are how everyone absolves Barry and feels sorry when he cries, which leaves him a boy-man forever (Eddie was soooo much better for Iris than Barry would be), and the way the show treats women as props for the manpain.  It's emotional fridging.

 

I love both LoT and Supergirl but at this point, I'd have to put LoT first because of how well it handles the many characters, giving each their due, and how well it handles relationships.  Supergirl not only burns through villains, the relationships are badly handled except for Kara/Alex, Kara/Cat and Alex/Hank.  And there really was no reason except plotty plot for Hank to turn himself in last night.

Edited by statsgirl
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wonderwall

wonderwall

I don't get why CW can't take 5 minutes to let the Arrow cast do these things as well. 

 

The CW likes to treat Arrow like it's the weird cousin twice removed that everyone in your family tries to stay away from lol

 

To be fair, it's only Flash, the best CW performer, that's receiving this kind of attention... I don't see any other show getting this attention

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Trini

Trini

... I too like a hero who makes mistakes and has room to grow, but that hero can't be the only one who sees it that way or he starts to seem bulletproof, especially in a relationship-sense. That's why the Everyone Gives Barry a Pep Talk trope is getting so old. Sometimes those people have every right to be upset with him instead of supportive, but instead they immediately forgive or absolve him of his mistakes so that they can prop him up. That tells me the show doesn't see anything Barry does as that bad.

 

I guess we just view it differently. I don't see anyone excusing him for tearing holes into the universe and getting a bunch of people killed. However, Flash tends to focus on the positive things the good guys do, anyway; instead of getting bogged down in misery. But weirdly, more crying.  ;-)

 

 

I don't get why CW can't take 5 minutes to let the Arrow cast do these things as well. 

There's still a week and a half. Although, I would have thought the shows to get BvS-related promos would be Supergirl and Gotham.

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Primal Slayer

Primal Slayer

The CW likes to treat Arrow like it's the weird cousin twice removed that everyone in your family tries to stay away from lol

 

To be fair, it's only Flash, the best CW performer, that's receiving this kind of attention... I don't see any other show getting this attention

Yeah but especially when you have 2 DC characters on your network, this would be the perfect time to utilize both of them. Especially when they are night and day like BvS.

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wonderwall

wonderwall

(edited)

Yeah but especially when you have 2 DC characters on your network, this would be the perfect time to utilize both of them. Especially when they are night and day like BvS.

 

I basically think the CW PR is run by a talentless and unimaginative person... The CWPR dept. don't really know how to capitalize on something like what you just pointed out. It could've been the perfect opportunity for DCTV to reap some benefits from BvS premiering next week... But nope lol

Edited by wonderwall
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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

Interesting article about Ali Liebert, who has appeared on both Arrow and LoT...

 

Ali Liebert: 5 Comic Book Roles Better For Her Than Felicity’s Double
By Amanda Joyce Mar 15, 2016 03:30 PM
https://www.themovienetwork.com/article/ali-liebert-5-comic-book-roles-better-her-felicity-s-double

She recently appeared as a nurse in an episode of Legends of Tomorrow set in the 1950s, and plenty of audience members are hoping she sticks around when the show returns. She also appeared as Felicity’s (Emily Bett Rickards) double in Arrow earlier this season when the character was hallucinating her younger self, though you wouldn’t know it since the effects team did their job so well that you can’t tell the difference. She’s even appearing in an upcoming episode of iZombie as a guest star. That’s three DC comic based shows that haven’t used the actress outside of a small guest star turn, and we think the comic book world could do better for her, so we’ve got a few ideas for her (and the casting directors booking her roles) next.
*  *  *
Black Canary
Before anyone throws anything at me, I’m not suggesting she replace either of the Canaries on the CW’s Arrow or Legends of Tomorrow. There have been rumors that the Black Canary could be putting in an appearance at some point in the upcoming slate of Justice League centered films.

The rumor is rooted in the belief that Warner Bros. has decided to test out a few characters with audiences before committing to a movie with them at the center. Black Canary would feature with Oracle and Huntress in a Birds of Prey film if it made it out of development. (Really, I could see her as just about any of the Birds of Prey, to be honest.) The long standing internet scuttlebutt has been that Jena Malone is playing Oracle in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice as the beginning of these tests, but her character has been cut from the theatrical release from the film altogether, so we won’t even know if Oracle makes an appearance until the DVD release.
Edited by tv echo
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Carrie Ann

Carrie Ann

Yeah...I didn't realize that last week's episode was The 100's lowest-rated ever...that's a pretty intense drop for what has been a poorly-rated show to begin with. Some people will come back, but I wouldn't be surprised if that gain is erased and then some by the end.

 

Kinda proud of our li'l Arrow for holding so steady.

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Delphi

Delphi

Yeah...I didn't realize that last week's episode was The 100's lowest-rated ever...that's a pretty intense drop for what has been a poorly-rated show to begin with. Some people will come back, but I wouldn't be surprised if that gain is erased and then some by the end.

Kinda proud of our li'l Arrow for holding so steady.

Last week sucked around the board, so I'll hold out judgment for a week or two.

Plus there's the whole long summer, how long can people stay angry?

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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

Interesting article about Ali Liebert, who has appeared on both Arrow and LoT...

 

Ali Liebert: 5 Comic Book Roles Better For Her Than Felicity’s Double

By Amanda Joyce Mar 15, 2016 03:30 PM

https://www.themovienetwork.com/article/ali-liebert-5-comic-book-roles-better-her-felicity-s-double

 

Is there really that much of an interest in a Black Canary film, or Birds of Prey on film or TV? Just curious because of the chatter about BoP from HVCC (which seemed like it was being pushed by CL). Also, didn't Morrigan post comic numbers for BC were around 15,000? Not exactly selling like hot cakes.

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

More hilarious joke tweets from Laura Hurley...

Laura Hurley ‏@lah9891  14h14 hours ago
KD: "I'm Supergirl! I have lots of powers!"
BA: "I'm the Flash! I have superspeed and superhealing!"
OQ: "I'm leaving."
#laurawritesDC

Laura Hurley ‏@lah9891  14h14 hours ago
BA: "I'll be back...in a flash."
KD: "That would be...super."
OQ: "I'm not playing this game."
#laurawritesDC

Laura Hurley ‏@lah9891  14h14 hours ago
KD: "Hi! I'm Supergirl!"
OQ: "I'm a gritty vigilante with no superpowers."
KD: "Batman? From Gotham?"
OQ: "That's on Fox."
#laurawritesDC
Laura Hurley ‏@lah9891  14h14 hours ago
KD: "How do we save the day?"
BA: "I can't think of anything!"
OQ (off-screen): "Believe in yourselves."
KD and BA: "GENIUS!"
#laurawritesDC
Laura Hurley ‏@lah9891  14h14 hours ago
KD: "So, my weakness is Kryptonite and your weakness is cold. What's the Green Arrow's weakness?"
BA: "Plot."
#laurawritesDC
Laura Hurley ‏@lah9891  13h13 hours ago
KD: "So, a villain turned you crazy & Red Kryptonite turned me crazy. What turns Green Arrow crazy?"
BA: "Sweeps months."
#laurawritesDC
Laura Hurley ‏@lah9891  14h14 hours ago
KD: "Alex and I grew up together just like siblings."
BA: "That's so romantic!"
KD: "..."
BA: "What?"
#laurawritesDC

Laura Hurley ‏@lah9891  14h14 hours ago

BA: "I think something's wrong with my eyes."
KD: "Why?"
BA: "All the women look three-dimensional here!"
#laurawritesDC

Edited by tv echo
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kismet

kismet

They are saving the best for last!! :)

 

I did love the way Brandon answered it, it was a little snarky but still funny... although IMO if it was BR's Superman vs. any Batman he would get his ass kicked no questions asked. Henry Cavill is a far tougher Superman that I actually think he could take Batman in a fair fight.

 

Also why can't Jax just keep his real accent?? I think it would improve his acting, because I wonder if some of his acting is limited by needing to do the American accent. Perhaps they can leave him behind in the UK so he can "develop" an accent on the show.

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nksarmi

nksarmi

Loved it. 


They are saving the best for last!! :)

 

I did love the way Brandon answered it, it was a little snarky but still funny... although IMO if it was BR's Superman vs. any Batman he would get his ass kicked no questions asked. Henry Cavill is a far tougher Superman that I actually think he could take Batman in a fair fight.

 

Also why can't Jax just keep his real accent?? I think it would improve his acting, because I wonder if some of his acting is limited by needing to do the American accent. Perhaps they can leave him behind in the UK so he can "develop" an accent on the show.

 

LOL its probably something ridiculous like they thought his accent would take away from the street smart, gear head image they wanted JAX to personify OR they wanted him to represented the "American teen jock."

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tarotx

tarotx

(edited)

Am I just blinking and missing when they have Caity Lotz/Sara Lance across the scene like the other actor/characters?

The LoT Batman v Superman promo just got posted.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFFieIQ8Eo0
I really think they just skipped Arrow. As usual.
Edited by tarotx
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JenMD

JenMD

Caity was in it, but she didn't get an onscreen credit, like all the other actors in the video.

 

They've released one video per day, Arrow could be tomorrow.  It would be weird if they didn't get to do one.

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