Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[jaytee1812]

If The Flash doesn't have WestAllen at the centre of season 3 I'll be switching off.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Ray, the boring Hawk People, and Rapey Savage are some of the reasons I am not watching LoT.  The biggest reason, though, is that I refuse to support another MG project after the entirety of Arrow season three.  No, sir.  

Edited March 11, 2016 by SonofaBiscuit

[way2interested]

 it has more relatable characters, with Cisco in particular being an audience surrogate.

See, I've never seen Cisco as an audience surrogate but as kind of a writer surrogate where the writers say what they want to say and what they want the audience to think and feel rather than what the characters would naturally think or feel. Diggle and Felicity, who often questioned Oliver's choices and thought process and often said things that the audiences would say in their positions, were more audience surrogates than Cisco.

 

The writers use Cisco more to try to get the audience on their sides rather than actually trying to make Cisco relatable to the audience. If they want the audience to think something is fun, make Cisco think is cool (Barry's ability to defeat each villain by some byproduct of running fast). If they want the audience to feel stakes or fear in the plot, make Cisco fearful or put him in danger (rather than just have Killer Frost be a villain, make Reverb a thing as well). If they want the audience to like a character, make Cisco like them (Kendra). Admittedly, they also do this with Felicity a lot, but Felicity, to me, doesn't feel like an extension of the writers (even though the writers admitted that Felicity's humor is more based on their own style of humor), Cisco does. When I watch Cisco, I occasionally just see the writers reacting to their own plot rather than a relatable character played out on screen.

 

I still like Cisco, but I can never take him too seriously because I feel like I'm watching a personification of some of the writers instead of an actual character. He's a lot of fun, but I am no where near relating to him. However, it might all just be my Arrow bias speaking for me.    

[wonderwall]

Ray, the boring Hawk People, and Rapey Savage are some of the reasons I am not watching LoT.  The biggest reason, though, is that I refuse to support another MG project after the entirety of season three.  No, sir.  

 

I think I might give it a shot after the season ends because my love for Phil Klemmer & Chris Fedak for VM and Chuck far outweighs my dislike of MG.

[NumberCruncher]

The reasons for The Flash success are probably a whole bunch of different things (iconic hero, more kid-friendly, younger show, EPs learned from their mistakes on Arrow and didn't repeat, etc.). I can definitely see it lasting for more seasons than its older sister show even if I don't necessarily believe it's the better show. I'll just enjoy Arrow for how ever long I have it since it's the one I have a stronger connection to.

Edited March 11, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[lemotomato]

Something tells me that that will be Arrow's fault, too. And Arrow's shippers'.

It's gonna be Felicity's fault. Doesn't matter that she's not even on that show, everything is her fault. 

[wonderwall]

It's gonna be Felicity's fault. Doesn't matter that she's not even on that show, everything is her fault. 

 

Isn't it Felicity's fault that Iris is essentially a background character? lol

[Chaser]

One of the reporters is saying that per the CW, LOT edgies out Arrow in demo when you add in Live + 7 ratings.

[wonderwall]

One of the reporters is saying that per the CW, LOT edgies out Arrow in demo when you add in Live + 7 ratings.

Vlada Gelman said that. 

[JenMD]

Ray, the boring Hawk People, and Rapey Savage are some of the reasons I am not watching LoT.  The biggest reason, though, is that I refuse to support another MG project after the entirety of Arrow season three.  No, sir.  

Same here.  I didn't even make it all the way through S3 before deciding no more MG shows for me.  I think he's a terrible showrunner (and not a very good writer).  I don't even care that he's not the showrunner on LOT, he's involved and that's enough for me.  I'm very glad Sara's alive again, but she's really the only character on the whole show I care about, the rest I'm either indifferent to or actively dislike.  I'm a bit bummed to be missing Victor Garber (SpyDaddy!), but I'm not attached to Stein, so...

 

As for The Flash, I think I might be done.  Nothing about that show grabs me at all and I think the Earth2 eps did me in.  I just rolled my eyes through the whole thing.  I only paid attention to the King Shark ep because of Diggle and Lyla.  Maybe it's my complete lack of comics knowledge or interest in the comics, but it just doesn't do it for me.

[Starfish35]

I'm really happy Legends got renewed. The 0.7 from last night was concerning.

That said, I do hope they deal with some of the issues for next season. They won't have Savage, so that removes one of the major issues right there. I'm interested to see what kind of cast changes occur. But as long as they keep Sara and Snart I'm still in. Rip is probably also still necessary (although I'm not a big fan).

[NumberCruncher]

Felicity being the reason Iris is sidelined on The Flash makes about as much sense as blaming Cisco for Diggle's reduced screentime on Arrow since, you know, they're not even on the same show and sometimes appear in the crossovers. It's utter nonsense.

Edited March 11, 2016 by NumberCruncher

[wonderwall]

Felicity being the reason Iris is sidelined on The Flash makes about as much sense as blaming Cisco for Diggle's reduced screentime on Arrow since, you know, they're not even on the same show and sometimes appear in the crossovers. It's utter nonsense.

 

Shhhh it's logical, not nonsense :p

[Delphi]

Honestly. I think a lot of it is imagined. They have to stall the west/Allen romance, and having other love interests do that. I'm sorry that Candice has been sidelined, though I thought she shined in earth 2, but no one took a look of and screamed, "get the black woman off camera!" They cast her as lead actress knowing she was black, I don't think her race has anything to do with her screen time.

[wonderwall]

Honestly. I think a lot of it is imagined. They have to stall the west/Allen romance, and having other love interests do that. I'm sorry that Candice has been sidelined, though I thought she shined in earth 2, but no one took a look of and screamed, "get the black woman off camera!" They cast her as lead actress knowing she was black, I don't think her race has anything to do with her screen time.

 

I like Iris, I thought she was one of the best parts of S1 and I loved her relationship with Eddie. But I thoroughly believe that the writers don't know what to do with Iris. They are struggling to give her a role on the show and I think that stems from them not properly planning her arc from the beginning. Iris is removed from the rest of the characters because what she does is so completely different.

 

Iris from E2 was amazing. And it only solidifies my belief that she should've been a cop instead of a journalist.

 

So yeah I agree with you. I don't think race has anything to do with it. I think it's more to do with the writers not really knowing what to do with her because of poor planning. And because the writers don't know what to do with her character, it's easy for someone like Patty (who had a lot of screentime because she was Barry's love interest) or Caitlin (who's actually a part of Team Flash) can easily overshadow Iris in an episode. 

Edited March 11, 2016 by wonderwall

[nksarmi]

Coming in late, but I honestly think Flash is the most successful because he is the biggest comic book character out of all of them.  Flash is a founding member of the Justice League.  Neither Green Arrow nor the Atom compare to that.

 

And honestly, I don't think the writing is better on Flash than any of the other shows and Barry's endless need for pep talks are starting to grate.  Plus, I've seen tons of people comment that Flash is the weakest show when it comes to meaningful use of women.

 

But with all that said - I think it's also the PG-ness of it all.  Younger kids can watch Flash and enjoy it. It really is more of a family show than Arrow or LoT.  That's partly why someday I think Supergirl might rival it.  That's a very family-friendly show as well.

Edited March 11, 2016 by nksarmi

[Genki]

Usually I try to not engage, but I'm a woman of colour and frankly I see sexism as a bigger issue on the Flash than race.

 

None of the females are treated well on the Flash and their story-lines are reaction for, or side-lined for, the male characters a LOT.

 

Having said that, my upbringing is very different from that of a woman of colour in the USA, but I think this section of Kerry Washington's GLAAD Speech resonate with me in particular. (Whole speech is great btw) 

 

 

Now, you would think that those of us who are kept from our full rights of citizenship would ban together and fight the good fight, but history tells us that, no, often we don't. Women, poor people, people of color, people with disabilities, immigrants, gay men, lesbians, bisexuals, trans people, intersex people - we have been pitted against each other and made to feel like there are limited seats at the table for those of us who fall into the category of "other." As a result, we have become afraid of one another. We compete with one another. We judge one another.

[Velocity23]

 

They still enjoying the boost from the first episodes.

[hogwash]

Iris hate is gross but nothing I've seen in Flarrowverse has topped Laurel circa S01/S02. That was brutal. 

 

Flash is frustrating to watch. I'm still pissed the show actually had to go to another Earth for them to actually get to do something. They only have 2 female characters! How is this hard for them???? I straight up think Iris gets screwed by Joe (so did Henry). Caitlin gets screwed by Cisco. Joe gets to be Barry's family while Cisco gets to be Barry's friend. Iris and Caitlin tread water in inconsequential storylines. 

 

Iris, especially, if they're going for the romance with Barry this season. Barry's crush overshadowed their relationship in S01 but they had a chance to course correct and show them as BFFs/childhood friends. But nah. They've both been through heavy stuff this season but have only had 2(?) conversations. Some BFFs. Maybe when they're together they'll be allowed to talk/interact with each other...

[bijoux]

I cannot find those Sara scenes on Youtube. I did however run across Supergirl and Alex telling Kara she killed her aunt. That was a terrific scene. Chyler Leigh is great in it.

[strikera0]

Good on LOT for getting the season 2 renewal, but the show will probably need to be rebooted if it wants to see a season 3. By the time this season is over, viewership will surely have dropped below 2 million people.

Edited March 11, 2016 by strikera0

[nksarmi]

I'd be surprised if ratings drop more - a lot people probably just didn't realize it was on since Flash and Arrow weren't on this week. If they reair this episode the week before the second half, it will probably increase the ratings for the next one. 

[Morrigan2575]

Then why didn't it drop last week?

[Ann Mack]

I really do think that AK thinks Patti is good for the show and I guess Barry. In all honesty I literally did quit the show while Patti was there. I returned when it was confirmed that she was gone. I tried but I couldn't tolerate the female Barry and Felicity love child better known as Patti. I returned on the "Welcome To Earth 2" episode. However, I have noticed that not one episode has aired were Patti's name hasn't been mentioned. I guess AK wants to make sure she stays fresh in the viewers memory. Well as soon as she returns I guess I'll be checking out again. Something about her irritated me and NO I don't even want to give her another chance in the hopes of them writing her character better. I just found the show to be so hypocritical when portraying her role as Joe's partner as to how they treated Eddie as Joe's partner. Just the overall bend over backwards attitude and screen time that was afforded to Patti that was NEVER given to Iris. 

 

So Patti is a deal breaker for me when t comes to watching The Flash!

[Sakura12]

I cannot find those Sara scenes on Youtube. I did however run across Supergirl and Alex telling Kara she killed her aunt. That was a terrific scene. Chyler Leigh is great in it.

 

Here you go.

 

 

 

 

[nksarmi]

Then why didn't it drop last week?

 

I don't know but I almost forgot it was on to be honest.  I just think the next episode could go higher if this one gets reaired closer to the 31st.

[BkWurm1]

I cannot find those Sara scenes on Youtube. I did however run across Supergirl and Alex telling Kara she killed her aunt. That was a terrific scene. Chyler Leigh is great in it.

I was so happy with the scene between Alex and Kara.  Made me sad though that I wasn't going to get Oliver coming clean. 

 

Just the overall bend over backwards attitude and screen time that was afforded to Patti that was NEVER given to Iris.

 

I don't get why every female character gets blamed for the lack of proactive use of Iris.  The show has a problem writing for Iris with or without Patti or visits from Felicity or when Barry was dating the sports writer.  They aren't the ones taking away her constructive screen time. 

[Ann Mack]

I beg to differ and this is my opinion why. I think we are going to agree to disagree on the usage of Patti and other female characters screen time that was afforded as a recurring character. I had no problem with Linda because she didn't consume as much screen time or episodes. Regardless of how they write or wrote for Iris, Caitlin, or Linda IMO it's possible (I didn't fact check) Patti might have had more screen time (in a recurring role) then all three of these ladies in the early episodes of Season 2 combined. Yes, it's the writers fault as well that they don't know how to write for their "leading lady" Iris or for Caitlin but in this case I don't think they tried. I don't think they tried because they were trying to create a whirlwind romance between Patti and Barry to remove all memory/existence of Barry and his love for Iris. So their is sufficient blame to go around on this show with all things pertaining to Patti IMO.

 

So IMO the writers were taking away Candice/Iris screen time because they were trying to deconstruct and diminish Barry's feeling for Iris and one way to do that was to decrease Iris' screen time and interactions with Barry while increasing both for Patti. I do believe the writers were going for the "out of sight, out of mind" when it came to what Iris and Barry mean and meant to each other. So they could establish Patti as Barry's replacement love for Iris.

 

Side note: I also don't agree with the point of view from some that Iris was in mourning for Eddie (as a reason why the writers didn't pursue a Iris with Barry relationship in S2) so the show wanted to give her space to grieve and would have been wrong for her to find comfort in Barry. Because they surely had no problem letting Caitlin get over Ronnie and move quickly on to Jay. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by Ann Mack

[BkWurm1]

I don't think they tried because they were trying to create a whirlwind romance between Patti and Barry to remove all memory/existence of Barry and his love for Iris. So their is sufficient blame to go around on this show with all things pertaining to Patti IMO.

 

They already crapped on the memory and existence of Barry and Iris when they had Iris say screw destiny, I choose you Eddie!  Only for him to die in the most heroic manner. 

Side note: I also don't agree with the point of view from some that Iris was in mourning for Eddie (as a reason why the writers didn't pursue a Iris with Barry relationship in S2) so the show wanted to give her space to grieve and would have been wrong for her to find comfort in Barry. Because they surely had no problem letting Caitlin get over Ronnie and move quickly on to Jay.

 

I would have been appalled if they'd pushed the Iris and Barry romance.  That would have put me off the pairing real fast.  That they treated Caitlin with so little respect only proves my point. I did NOT like her falling for Jay like that at all.  Not starting a Barry and Iris romance was about the one thing they did right with Iris.  Not building up a Barry/Iris friendship was about the stupidest thing they did. 

 

Patti was absolutely a ship stall but she was ALSO a character replacement for Eddie since sending Joe out alone means he doesn't get to talk to anyone.  So yeah, she got both Eddie's screen time and some time with Barry.  What she didn't do was take anything from Iris.  Iris would have had to have something before it could be taken and they seem to have no idea how to write Iris on the Flash.  It's not like Laurel where IMO the character frequently didn't work.  It's would be so simple to write for Iris but they have a weird boys club over on FLash and until she gets to be Love Interest again, I think they will keep ignoring her.  Which is why I feel it is unjustified to transfer ire over how Iris is written/treated to any character that might temporarily fill the love interest position. 

[BkWurm1]

Why should he be? He's technically from Ancient Egypt. He shouldn't even be white, and definitely shouldn't be racist.

Well Savage might not be racist but his buddies and pals like Stalin and Hitler were. People are judged by the company they keep. ;)

[tarotx]

I get being upset that you favs aren't getting screen time and another actor is-like some have with Sara and Diggle&Felicity season 2 but that's not the other characters fault. Hate the way the show is going but not the character for it. I mean you can hate the character but it seems weird to me for it to be that reason. But each our own. I know some fans hate on Felicity because she has more screen time than Laurel and even Diggle. That's the show's fault not Felicity. The Love interest has her own character beats plus the love interest scenes so screen time is ensured. Unless being a love interest is the only beat and while that is the way it is often-is that what we what?

 

Iris's problem is she doesn't have a lot of her own character beats for a large portion of the show. And people get mad when she does because it's often not with Barry. Right now Iris is Joe's daughter, Wally's sister and Barry's somewhat like a sister. That's her role on the show. I think people are angry because of her comic role? This isn't the comics. I know people thought she was the the female lead but really there is no female lead on Flash. I do wish we had better female stories on the show :( I think they will eventually get to Barry and Iris as love interest but until then (well probably still then) this is a man's world. 

Edited March 13, 2016 by tarotx

[tv echo]

The CW spending some money on LOT promo...

 

DC's Legends of Tomorrow | Return Sizzle | The CW
Published on Mar 11, 2016, by The CW Television Network
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmQD-pDwahg

[Chaser]

I'm sorry but that looks a bit ridiculous to me.

I can't take Hawkgirl seriously in that outfit and Savage is eye rolling.

I guess I prefer the less is more approach.

[Morrigan2575]

That was massively cheesy and I don't think it's new, new. Probably something they did originally and just releasing now which happens all the time.

CW has a pattern, they heavily promote S1 and S2 and then drop promotion after thatx unless it's the Flagship (Flash) or a Plec show (no idea why)

[Chaser]

I'm fairly certain Plec sold her soul to a crossroads demon. I'm hoping she is due soon.

[bijoux]

Here you go.

 

Thanks for the links. I have to say appreciate the scene with Stein the most since it offers the most insight into Sara. I am a little curious how her feelings for Nyssa were effected by the whole pit thing.

[tarotx]

Yeah I was thinking there was too much Hawkgirl and Savage in that commercial. They are a huge part of the issue I have with the show. Plus the part where they say they are not Heroes without the we're legends is just pointless. Plus I can't stand Firestorm. I like Stein and Jax is growing into his role but firestorm is too powerful of a costume to be never used. Plus the way people are angry that firestorm isn't as powerful as he is in the comics even when he's being used. I say find a way to stabilize Stein then send Jax over to Supergirl where they can find out that Ronnie Raymond is already there.

[nksarmi]

Yeah I was thinking there was too much Hawkgirl and Savage in that commercial. They are a huge part of the issue I have with the show. Plus the part where they say they are not Heroes without the we're legends is just pointless. Plus I can't stand Firestorm. I like Stein and Jax is growing into his role but firestorm is too powerful of a costume to be never used. Plus the way people are angry that firestorm isn't as powerful as he is in the comics even when he's being used. I say find a way to stabilize Stein then send Jax over to Supergirl where they can find out that Ronnie Raymond is already there.

 

I think I said this in the LoT forums, but I kind of think the creative team behind this show has done something really cool with putting together a team that has a lot of awesome powers to be used in highpoints of the show without having to use all those powers every week.

 

The show had them start off by displaying all their powers/technology at full force in the first couple of episodes.  What did it get?  VS observed them all and then set out to duplicate the most lethal power among them - Firestorm.  I mean, I remember at the end of the 1970s back to back where Carter died - I was sitting there thinking, "Guys, you might want to be a little more subtle. It might be hard to not change the past when you are having a full blown high-tech war on VS's front lawn!"

 

So, now the show has given reasons why they have to both - go further back in time (because post 1970s VS knows they are coming for him) and be a lot more subtle in how they do things.  I was thinking about the most recent episode and there VS doesn't know it was a time traveling Kendra who tried to kill him.  All he knows is that Kendra wasn't with Carter but some guy named Raymond instead. While they still didn't get VS - they were far more successful than their 70s or 80s attempts lol.

 

Now of course there is the issue of why bring in this high special effects characters then if you don't use them?  And well, they CAN always use them in episodes set in the future!  So you know - win win.

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by nksarmi

[Sakura12]

People complain that Arrow uses all it's masked heroes all the time not giving anyone enough screen time or a chance to show what they can do. While Legends is doing the opposite and people are still complaining. I do agree their full on assault of Savage in the 70's let him know what all of them can do. It would be better for them go under the radar by not wearing their fancy costumes and showing the world who they are. The split team match ups is making the show for me. The actual plot matters very little to me.

 

However they need to learn to be more covert and not show their hand until they are ready to take Savage down. 

 

The smartest decision Rip ever made was choosing Sara to be on the team. Or course now left behind their most valuable player that pretty much saved everyone by herself in the last episode. No wonder it's going to take them 2 years to get back to them, without Sara that's how long it will take them to fight one guy. Lol. 

[tarotx]

Oh I don't want to see Firestorm all powered up. I just want to watch Sara fight :p I think firestorm's already too powerful and would like for him to go to Super Girl so Jax's actor doesn't lose a job for my wants. And then reading all the replies how other fans are so mad that he's not powerful like he is in the comics leaves me smh.Though having Jax and Stein fighting on what something is going to turn into could be fun if it's light and humorous. I like Stein and would love to keep him but I can part with him to get rid of firestorm. Sara's the only one I can't part with though I really enjoy Snart, Rory and Rip as well. Ray's OK as long as The ATOM is used like he has been so far season 1.

 

I'm much more a fan of the powerless and small weapons people. Though I usually like Magic as well I'm not sure I want someone say as powered as DD on the show. 

[AyChihuahua]

I'm sorry but that looks a bit ridiculous to me.

I can't take Hawkgirl seriously in that outfit and Savage is eye rolling.

I guess I prefer the less is more approach.

Um, if that was supposed to make me want to watch the show, it was a huge fail. They all look TOTALLY RIDICULOUS. 

 

Still love Sara, though. I tried two episodes, was bored to death by everything except cranky Oliver, and won't try next season unless they ditch the deadweight terribad actors.

[Primal Slayer]

I need them to start delving into Firestorms actual power set, he, like Cold/Heatwave is more then just blasting people.

[Macgirl]

I was sure where to put this, that usually means it can go here.

If you're in the UK and have Sky or Now TV they have a behind the scenes show called DC Fancast available on catch up.

It has 4 eps available just now, including interviews with Stephen Amell, Emily Bett Rickards, Victor Garber and Franz Drameh.

[bijoux]

No wonder it's going to take them 2 years to get back to them, without Sara that's how long it will take them to fight one guy. Lol.

Wait, are Sara, Ray and Kendra going to be stranded there until 1960 or will the others take two years in the future to get back to the point where they left them? Or am I missing a joke?

[tarotx]

Wait, are Sara, Ray and Kendra going to be stranded there until 1960 or will the others take two years in the future to get back to the point where they left them? Or am I missing a joke?

We really don't know just going by what Ray says but editing could mean anything. Seems to me that Sara, Kendra and Ray are the ones stuck for a chunk of time since Ray is Teaching and Sara joins the League of Assassins. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzUIBNqRnnE

[KirkB]

Here's something I don't get. Why would anyone green light a show about a group of superheroes and then need to cut the budget? It couldn't have been a surprise that it was going to be expensive. You have a guy on fire who flies, a guy who shrinks, flies and shoots energy, a woman with wings who flies, and two guys, well one now, with energy guns. Not to mention the time ship. You can get away with stock footage of the ship for the most part, but if cost is a concern why not choose less CGI characters? It's not like Ray or Firestorm's powers have been crucial to the story. Sara brings a lot to the table and all of that is pretty much CL. DC has plenty of non powered, relatively cheap to do characters in their catalog to choose from, some of whom aren't even restricted because of the movies, 

Edited March 12, 2016 by KirkB

[Morrigan2575]

The budgets are dependent upon the ad rates. Before a show debuts the network estimate the ratings/ad rates and budget. The S2 budget is based on actual ad rates/ratings. The CW generally cuts the budgets of their shows. Arrow's budget was cut from S1 to S2. Not sure about Flash but i wouldn't be surprised to find out it was cut

[calliope1975]

Here's something I don't get. Why would anyone green light a show about a group of superheroes and then need to cut the budget? It couldn't have been a surprise that it was going to be expensive. 

 

It's part of Hollywood's crack management of shows, especially successful ones. SA spoke about it in the Girl on Guy podcast. Studios/networks cut the budget to successful shows to funnel the money to newer projects. It doesn't make sense to me, but seems to be the norm. 

[Morrigan2575]

It's part of Hollywood's crack management of shows, especially successful ones. SA spoke about it in the Girl on Guy podcast. Studios/networks cut the budget to successful shows to funnel the money to newer projects. It doesn't make sense to me, but seems to be the norm.

AMC totally screwed over The Walking Dead on multiple occasions funneling money to Mad Men.

[Primal Slayer]

AMC tried to cut Mad Mens budget but thankfully they didn't own the show and MW stood his ground. Same with WB cancelling Buffy over budget issues. That's the sucky thing when a network owns a show outright, less leeway.