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Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

ArctisTor

By ArctisTor
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Genki

Genki

Oh, totally agree, @JenMD. There's also the complete continuity WTF in Oliver being super duper cheerful happy dude dispensing self-help guru advice to Barry, about five minutes after he gave up on having a relationship with Felicity, and the normal happy life he craves because manpain. And then being all smiles and saying "cool" back. Yeah, right.

I kinda wonder what the hell were they thinking in sticking that phone call post break-up kiss. Did they not watch the Flash pilot or something? 'Cause if Barry had called during the 20 minutes of happy Arrow, it would have made a whole lot more sense.

 

I think they may have originally planned the Flash meet for earlier in the episode (pre-date when Oliver was happy and optimistic), but then change the timeline for reasons...it just makes more sense to me.

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apinknightmare
apinknightmare

I mean, I don't want her in a suit so it's not the "never" in this instance that bothers me, but Marc saying that Felicity specifically would make the notion of superheroics "silly." Why? In this show

Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

And then someone tells him that what he did was okay because of reasons, or that he can't keep feeling guilty, he just has to move forward. Like, no, just...go ahead and feel really guilty for awhile?

SleepDeprived
SleepDeprived

Hey, now... Listen. The practice of proper etiquette during an impromptu wedding officiated by your best friend in a park, right after the funeral of a beloved colleague, is of the utmost importance,

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

DocBrown mentioned on Twitter that Flash's 2015 budget waa cut. I'm guessing tjat means for the back 9 order and not S2 (which hasn't been picked up yet).

I wonder if Arrow will get te back 9 cut as well or if they'll see a cut for S4?

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NumberCruncher

NumberCruncher

(edited)

I thought it was pretty standard practice for CW show budgets to get cut after the first season. I remember Stephen saying that very thing in the podcast with Aisha Tyler. I wouldn't be surprised if The Flash budget cut was accelerated to the back 9 episodes, considering how expensive its production must be due to all of the additional CGI required. That said, I'm not sure it would have any impact on Arrow since its budget has probably already been cut several times through the first 2 seasons until the ratings leveled out.

Edited by NumberCruncher
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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)

I thought it was pretty standard practice for CW show budgets to get cut after the first season. I remember Stephen saying that very thing in the podcast with Aisha Tyler. I wouldn't be surprised if The Flash budget cut was accelerated to the back 9 episodes, considering how expensive its production must be due to all of the additional CGI required. That said, I'm not sure it would have any impact on Arrow since its budget has probably already been cut several times through the first 2 seasons until the ratings leveled out.

Arrow's budget was cut after S1 not the back half of S1...that's unusual.

Also Arrow's budget was not cut from S2 to S3 so it's quite probable, it will get cut again for S4. However, if there's something going on at the CW they could cut Arrow (and other show's) back 9 as well.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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Actionmage

Actionmage

2014: When Joy Came Back to Comics

 

Bah! I couldn't make it past the opening paragraph.

 

Joy has been in comics before, during and since Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns. All those two titles ( and Camelot 3000, imo) did was signal to the U.S. what the rest of the known world knows: comics are a spectrum medium, like television, movies, theater, and prose books.  Comics like the 80s run of Justice League, Captain Carrot and His Amazing Zoo Crew!,  the Alan Moore ABC anthology comics ( Jack B. Quick was dark but sometimes very funny), Wolff and Byrd: Counsilors of the Macabre/Supernatural Law  (lawyers with mummies and vampires and such for clients), and more that I am forgetting.  No one "told" comics to be dark and gritty; it's what sold and the comics producers are still riding that train into the ground. Yet, there has been lighter comics around.  

 

Now, for TV/movies? We have to go back to Wonder Woman, TMNT, and  both The Tick s for unfettered fun.  Batman: The Animated Series  was not all grimdark and had lighter episodes, and seems to have ushered in a resurgence of superheroes for TV.

 

While I am glad that Guardians and The Flash have wildly succeeded, the opening  was just like so many other articles I've read that just doesn't acknowledge that TV and movies have for the last couple of decades chosen to go with the darker films. The MCU chose to go with fun and serious and look at them! 

 

This, of course, flies in the face of everything we've been told since Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns came out 30 years ago and comics "weren't for kids anymore."

 

So my Tiny Titans comics really are imaginary stories? But I love  Lunch Lady Darkseid!

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looptab

looptab

A little late on that discussion, but I wanted to add that I too think the most likely way Felicity knew about Barry was overhearding them over the comms.

The only issue with that, though, is that Oliver should have left the channel open (? don't really know the right terminology for this, sorry), since in other episodes, if I'm not mistaken,  he has to push some kind of button over his chest in order for Felicity to hear him. I figure he can always hear her when she is talking, but he goes on and off radio silence. So, if he hadn't turn the mic on, theorethically she couldn't have hear them. Of course, they might have been inconsistent with this aspect too, and inserted their random "GO!" just when they felt like it, without actual criteria. 

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quarks

quarks

Also late to this discussion.

 

I'm willing to fanwank that Oliver left the mic on because he was so distracted from the twin shocks of finally kissing Felicity and finding out that Barry could run at superspeeds. It's also very possible that as soon as Barry started explaining the superpowered situation, Oliver quietly hit the little button on his chest, figuring that this was really something Felicity deserved/needed to know about, especially since he's telling himself that he just wants her to be happy (a few episodes later, granted) and he knows that Felicity liked Barry.

 

That's just in my head, though, not in the actual episode.

 

Regarding the placement of the scene - my guess is that when the original scene was written for the Flash pilot, the only thing that the writers were sure about was that Oliver would be alive and in Starling City, and figured they'd figure out where to insert the scene when it came time to write the Arrow episode. It's also very possible that they had no intentions of having Barry in the season opener at all until someone - hi, network executive - insisted on that cameo. 

 

In some ways, sure, it would have been better to have Barry's cameo appear earlier in the episode, in the lighter, happier moments. But I can see that being a huge problem - because that would have presumably led to Oliver and Felicity discussing "Whoa, Barry has superpowers!" instead of Queen Consolidated, Oliver and Felicity and the whole target speech.  And it couldn't be during the Vertigo mess since otherwise Oliver would have assumed that Barry's powers were just his hallucination.  So instead, the scene got moved up to later in the episode, allowing the rest of the episode to focus on Oliver.  Bonus: it gave a way for Oliver to get out of the Oliver/Felicity scene and gave Oliver an alibi for Sara's murder.  I agree it's clunky, but I'm not sure the episode had that many other options given that the scene was written so many months earlier, and ended up just not really fitting into what the Arrow season opener was trying to do.

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looptab

looptab

(edited)

I'm willing to fanwank that, too. :) I don't really care at this point, as long as the show never ever implies that Felicity somehow followed him. Even just the fact that she eavesdropped bugs me, so every plausible reason that we can come up with (and that the writers didn't bother to) is welcome. I guess I just wanted to complain about that silly thing going on with the comms, because I'm pretty sure there were instances in which the "turn the mic on" rule was ignored :) So the discussion about the rooftop overhearing seemed a good occasion to pull that off my chest :D

Edited by looptab
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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

I'm fanwanking the comms thing too, because IIRC, he doesn't always have to tap his chest to communicate, and it would just make sense for his end to always be open since he could get seriously injured or need help and not able to do that.

Also, he and Felicity did just have that big emotional scene, but they've never once let that kiss or the fallout get in the way of working together for the city. So, since he suited up to meet Barry, maybe he did let her know he was going out to patrol the city (which is probably what he did after he left) and she watched out for him, or maybe she has some kind of alert to let her know when the suit leaves the lair, and she listened in to make sure he didn't need help or get hurt and got intrigued when she heard who he was talking to. I don't blame her-she thought Barry was in a coma.

Honestly I'm willing to believe anything that doesn't involve her following him somewhere.

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looptab

looptab

I'm fanwanking the comms thing too, because IIRC, he doesn't always have to tap his chest to communicate, and it would just make sense for his end to always be open since he could get seriously injured or need help and not able to do that.

 

Exactly my point, sometimes he doesn't do that, so why do it at all? And you're right, the logical thing would be having his end always in communication, but logic is not a part of this universe :D That's why this nags me  Lol it's one of those things like the shot of him getting the bow before suiting up :)

 

Anyway, not to go completely off topic, I finally catched up with The Flash 109. It was a good episode, I like how every character interacts with almost everyone. And Wells is definitely my favorite, so good things :D

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Danny Franks

Danny Franks

Arrow seem to be teeing up prospective candidates with The Atom, Firestorm, and Wildcat, all of whom could likely carry a solo series.

 

 

tennant-smirk-giggle.gif

 

Seriously? I've not seen Ted Grant, but by all accounts this actor sucks. Brandon Routh couldn't headline a pantomime, and the guy playing Firestorm might be Stephen Amell's family, but he doesn't appear to be very good.

 

Good to hear that Agent Carter looks good, though. A show with a strong, awesome woman in it, which by its very design should not be able to sabotage said woman in favour of shittier characters.

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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

(edited)

I'm really surprised when people start talking about this and that character getting their own spinoffs. And I'm not just talking about characters on "Arrow." It's just not that simple to create a new show, even if it's tied to an existing one (Sure, CSI, NCIS, L&O seem a dime a dozen but their very nature as procedurals make them easy to replicate). That's why I never quite bought the idea of Ray Palmer being introduced with the intention of spinning him off to his own show. I'm not sure that there is enough interest in Atom, Wildcat, Firestorm — these are not household names (not like The Flash). "Gotham" and "Constantine" are both struggling ratings-wise, "Constantine" more so than Baby Bat. EVen ABC is hedging with "Agent Carter," doing a limited series order. "Arrow" is a bit of an anomaly in that it succeeded even though it's not that well known.

 

Edited to add: Birds of Prey and the Suicide Squad were sort of thrown out there last year during the back half of the second season. I wonder how much was to just see how much interest there is in the characters for other projects or if they were indeed considering spinoffs.

Edited by SmallScreenDiva
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NumberCruncher

NumberCruncher

I agree with you, @SmallScreenDiva. I think Arrow's success was largely due to it being the only player in town when it first premiered. Now, with several new comic-based series premiering every season, I doubt there's as much audience to go around. Obviously comic-based movies have been a tremendous success but there's a big difference in attracting and keeping an audience for 2 hours at a time over years vs. getting them to devote 23 hours each year. The Flash was able to succeed because of the noteriety of the superhero, but I doubt Arrow would have been nearly as big a hit coming into the current environment. I think these EPs are dreaming if they think any of these obscure characters could spin off and thrive.

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SmallScreenDiva

SmallScreenDiva

NumberCruncher, I'm not even sure it's the EPs dreaming of these spinoffs/scenarios. Most of the time, I see the speculation from entertainment sites and fans, not from anybody involved in production (but that may be because production companies or networks want to hold their cards closer to their vests).

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NumberCruncher

NumberCruncher

Good point. You're right that the EPs haven't come right out and said that's their intention. I guess it just feels like that's what they're hoping for when they hire someone like Brandon Routh for half the season and are suppressing the main hero's story so that the guest star has the opportunity to step into his shoes while he's gone.

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thuganomics85

thuganomics85

Yeah, right now, I have a hard time buying a successful spin-off with either Atom, Ted Grant, or Firestorm.  I don't see any of those three working out.  Especially Ted.  Christ, I'm sure he was great in the comics, but could he have been more boring on this show?  As for Firestorm, Robbie Amell's first attempt at headlining a show certainly didn't work, so I don't think he should be moved past supporting actor at this point.  Atom is most likely (with Brandon Roth being a decently well-known actor), but, again, he seems to have his fair share of lovers and haters, so they will need to do something to fix that last part (first step: drop the creeping...)

 

Seriously, I would rather watch a spin-off, where Slade and Captain Boomerang plot their escape from Ollie's prison, compared to those three.  Of course, the spin-off I really wanted was The Adventures of Sara & Nyssa, but that's already off the table.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

"Arrow" is a bit of an anomaly in that it succeeded even though it's not that well known.

 

I think it's pretty fair to say that Arrow shares a lot of viewers that had watched Smallville, so that chunk was very familiar with the Green Arrow.  Sure they (me) had to get past their Smallville trauma and wrap their head around a "darker" and "grittier" Green Arrow, but I had to check it out. 

 

For those that weren't that familiar, I think they'd figure out pretty quick that is was a Batman-esque kind of show, feeding off the "realism" of the Nolan Batman movies. 

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Genki

Genki

I'm fanwanking the comms thing too, because IIRC, he doesn't always have to tap his chest to communicate, and it would just make sense for his end to always be open since he could get seriously injured or need help and not able to do that.

Also, he and Felicity did just have that big emotional scene, but they've never once let that kiss or the fallout get in the way of working together for the city. So, since he suited up to meet Barry, maybe he did let her know he was going out to patrol the city (which is probably what he did after he left) and she watched out for him, or maybe she has some kind of alert to let her know when the suit leaves the lair, and she listened in to make sure he didn't need help or get hurt and got intrigued when she heard who he was talking to. I don't blame her-she thought Barry was in a coma.

Honestly I'm willing to believe anything that doesn't involve her following him somewhere.

 

Super late to the discussion, but I though the tap on the chest was for the voice modulator to work and that the comms are always open. So my confusion was why did Oliver go to the trouble to suit up to meet Barry, except for having the Flash meet the Arrow in the pilot.

 

The I never knew the "Firestorm" spin-off  speculation but

VG (SpyDaddy) was hired as the other half of the Firestorm Matrix

, and it is one of the few storylines that I'm interested in, on the Flash.

 

I'm up for more Slade & suicide squad but would prefer it on Arrow, the only Spin-off I would advocate are Birds of prey and the Atom and that is mainly to get the characters off the The Arrow.  

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

Hey thanks to everyone that took up the "how did Felicity overhear" question .  I'm pretty close to accepting the open comms explanation (warring with the more angsty and overwrought  and unlikely version that she was already crying in secret up on the roof and they just happened to show up out of the blue and have that conversation. I admit to having some fondness for the soapiness of it all)

 

Thanks for helping me make some sense of it.   

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wonderwall

wonderwall

To be honest, I like to think that Felicity went back to the Foundry to help Oliver with his vigilante stuff and be his eyes and ears because it shows that their relationship quarrels won't ever get in the way of their mission. Not everyone can do this, and it's nice to know that Oliver and Felicity are adult enough to know that whatever happens outside of the Arrow Cave should stay outside of the Arrow Cave. 

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tv echo

tv echo

(edited)

I think the success of a spin-off show will depend on how well-made and well-cast the show is, and not on the popularity of the superhero or actors... Flash was a tv series before, back in the 1990's, and only lasted one season then.  Last year the little-known Sleepy Hollow was a surprise hit because it was refreshing, witty and different, and cast good actors (of course, it's gone downhill this season).  On the big screen, when the first Iron Man movie debuted, not many people knew of that superhero outside of the comics world, but it was so good, it became surprisingly successful.

 

I think the introduction of every new DC superhero on Arrow or The Flash is, in part, a test of a possible future spin-off.  It doesn't mean that the CW will go forward with one or the other.  For example, take Ted Grant/Wildcat.  JR Ramirez seems pretty bland right now, but we haven't really seen that much of him and the actor looks like a typical CW pretty boy.  Who knows?  Surround him with great supporting characters, give him more to do, and maybe he'll surprise us.  Before we saw Stephen Amell's acting ability, he looked like a typical CW pretty boy.  When Grant Gustin appeared on Arrow last season, I thought he lacked charisma, but then he impressed me on The Flash this season.  Ray Palmer is more of a question mark for me, but Brandon Routh has been decent in other projects, so maybe he could be good on his own show if they retcon his creepy stalkerish vibe.  Robbie Amell was horrible on The Tomorrow People, so he's the biggest question mark for me, but sometimes it's the matter of the right project.  I wouldn't be surprised if TPTB are even throwing around the idea of a LOA show.

Edited by tv echo
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foreverevolving

foreverevolving

In all honestly, I sort of watched some past work Amell did prior to Arrow.. He seemed pretty bland and easy to forget in most of those roles.

I've said this before, specifically in relations to KC/LL- it's all about the right casting choice for a part.

When an actor is cast in the right role, even if they are mediocre, their abilities will shine through, if they have true acting potential they will be able to grow as as an actor.

It's sort of like if you take a young chef... Stick her in a fast food joint and you are not allowing her to grow as an artist, put her in a real kitchen (and not necessarily a michelin star kitchen) where she is challenged on a daily basis, where are skills are allowed to grow and watch her shine.

It's true to every profession, i used chef because well being one it's an easy analogy.

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ban1o

ban1o

Guggenheim: On Arrow, we have Ray Palmer and Roy Harper and if you call Roy "Ray" and Ray "Roy," you have to put money into the jar. But because we have a different budget than you guys, the money in that jar actually goes to produce the episode — usually in its entirety. (Laughs.)

 

lmao. So I'm not the only one.

Anyway that was a fun interview

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apinknightmare

apinknightmare

The Hollywood Reporter had Marc Guggenheim interview Tara Butters [whom he is married to, btw] and Michele Fazekas about Agent Carter, and there's a lot of stuff about Arrow in it too, as well as some insight in how DC and Marvel manage their TV properties:

 

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/agent-carter-showrunners-grilled-by-759932

 

That was a good read. Not sure about this though, enough is enough:

 

 

 

Fazekas: Marc, CBS is doing Supergirl. What is the possibility of a crossover?

Guggenheim: It's possible.

THR: I actually heard it's in Greg's deal, that Supergirl can cross over with Flash and/or Arrow.

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dtissagirl

dtissagirl

lmao. So I'm not the only one.

Anyway that was a fun interview

 

There's an actual reason I only ever refered to him as Palmer before the season started, and then the Crazy Eyes made my life even easier. :)

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quarks

quarks

I know the CW is owned by CBS, but has there ever been a network crossover like that?

 

 

In the last season of Buffy, when that show was on UPN, Angel came over from the WB for a couple of episodes.  

 

That's the only one that comes to mind, unless we're counting joke cameos on The Jack Benny Program.

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BkWurm1

BkWurm1

THR: I want to see Peggy Carter and Felicity (Emily Bett Rickards) in the same scene.

Guggenheim: I do, too, but I have a feeling that we want to see very different things happening in those scenes! But yeah that would be actually totally awesome.

 

Was it just me or did this sound like he was plotting out some bow chica bow wow moments? 

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)

In the last season of Buffy, when that show was on UPN, Angel came over from the WB for a couple of episodes.  

 

That's the only one that comes to mind, unless we're counting joke cameos on The Jack Benny Program.

And they had to get permission from the head of The WB Network to allow it, for the Series Finale (I think it was the very last 2 episodes and mostly a cameo, showed up at the end of 21 and was in the first 5 minutes of 22 - cookie dough speech).  

 

Technically John Munch has crossed over from NBC (Homicide, L&O and L&O:SVU) to Sesame Street (PBS - Muppet) and FOX (X-Files) same character, played by the same actor...but I don't think that counts in this situation.

 

ETA: Wow, he did more than I knew of...they missed puppet munch from Sesame Street.. :( (youtube video is in quiver...because everyone should see Muppet SVU at least once).

 

Munch has become the only fictional character, played by a single actor, to appear on 10 different television shows. These shows were on five different networks: NBC (Homicide: Life on the Street, Law & Order, Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, Law & Order: Trial by Jury, and 30 Rock); Fox (The X-Files and Arrested Development); UPN (The Beat); HBO (The Wire) and ABC (Jimmy Kimmel Live!). 

 

Edited by Morrigan2575
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tv echo

tv echo

If Agent Carter is a huge success (and, judging by all the positive early reviews, it will be), maybe Tara Butters can give her husband some pointers on how to write a female 'superhero'.

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statsgirl

statsgirl

They could write to KC's acting strengths.  There is nothing sweet or fluffy about Regina on OUaT or Anneliese Keating on How To Get Away With Murder and yet both those women are badasses and leading ladies on their shows, and we know AK can write a Mrs. Frederic (CCH Pounder) on Warehouse 13 because he already has.  If Laurel isn't going to be Oliver's love interest, make her the Melinda May (personality-wise) of Arrow.

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foreverevolving

foreverevolving

(edited)

They could write to KC's acting strengths. There is nothing sweet or fluffy about Regina on OUaT or Anneliese Keating on How To Get Away With Murder and yet both those women are badasses and leading ladies on their shows, and we know AK can write a Mrs. Frederic (CCH Pounder) on Warehouse 13 because he already has. If Laurel isn't going to be Oliver's love interest, make her the Melinda May (personality-wise) of Arrow.

Hey! I like Melinda May! (she's awesome) but that's because ming na is an amazing actress (way above KC league) who can emote and play a wide range of characters and who is able to take the supposedly bitchy character and give her vulnerability and make her relatable.

Edited by foreverevolving
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statsgirl

statsgirl

 

who is able to take the supposedly bitchy character and give her vulnerability and make her relatable.

What should have been done for Laurel.

 

Speaking of Ming Na Wen, I remember when she played Deb Chen on ER (was everyone on ER?).  She was the only person I shipped with Carter because I thought she could really handle him but the show never put them together for what I thought were racial reasons more than anything else. (Wells later gave Carter Thandie Newton as a love interest but she was a big movie star already.)  I'm glad she's got a good role on AoS now.

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Orion

Orion

So, I just finished watching Agent Carter (it's fantastic) and I couldn't help but wonder what the conversation at the Guggenheim household is like right now.

 

"How was your day?"

 

"Great, I wrote a multi-layered heroine, that despite hurting over past losses manages to show moments of humor, strength and vulnerability. She kicks butt in a realistic way, has multiple scenes that pass the bechdel test and I even managed to include a storyline that touches on institutional sexism. How was yours?"

 

"Well, I wrote a great scene for Laurel, my best ever. I would say it's epic! She still hasn't told her father about his daughter being dead. I had her earn her black hoodie for completing three months of boxing classes at the local gym. The best part she's super rage-y, abrasive and shows absolutely no sense of humor. I haven't managed to write a conversation, other than with Sara, that passes the bechdel test for her since season one but I did find a new way that she could snap at Oliver and demand something from his team in a demeaning way without saying thank you . This is going to be great."

 

"......"

 

I want to trade for Mrs. Guggenheim.
 

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thuganomics85

thuganomics85

Yeah, that was great to watch.  Not even just for Laurel; while not a "heroine", after the way Barbara was acting on Gotham last night as well, Peggy Carter was really needed.  You see, comic show writers?  You can write a great woman character on your show.  It's possible!

 

To be fair, I do think The Flash women haven't embarrassed themselves and have potential, but Peggy really is way, way ahead of the curve in almost every way.

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