Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[quarks]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Thank you, I don't think I knew all of that, but I meant, what scene with Cisco happened in season three that was then ignored after that?  

Oh, sorry for misunderstanding you!

It was the surprise end scene with Cisco and Ray where they both noted that the metahuman of the week hadn't been near Central City during the particle accelerator explosion, and that metahumans were now starting to spontaneously appear elsewhere.  It was an interesting idea....

....and with the very arguable exception of Nate, it's never been brought up since. To the point where Arrow had an elaborate backstory explaining that Dinah was in Central City during the explosion, and the new metahumans on this season of Flash have all been very carefully identified as being either all on the same bus or pregnant or now, I suppose, exchanging DNA with their spouses. 

[Featherhat]

I remember that being very ominous and Big Set Up sounding and I have wondered what was supposed to come of it. 

Nate was injected with a WW2 super serum by Ray who's fiancée was killed by same (and never brought up sigh) so I don't think he actually counts as a meta. Neither do Amaya or Zari though 2042 ARGUS is very liberal about classification it seems.

[Starfish35]

8 minutes ago, quarks said:

Oh, sorry for misunderstanding you!

It was the surprise end scene with Cisco and Ray where they both noted that the metahuman of the week hadn't been near Central City during the particle accelerator explosion, and that metahumans were now starting to spontaneously appear elsewhere.  It was an interesting idea....

....and with the very arguable exception of Nate, it's never been brought up since. To the point where Arrow had an elaborate backstory explaining that Dinah was in Central City during the explosion, and the new metahumans on this season of Flash have all been very carefully identified as being either all on the same bus or pregnant or now, I suppose, exchanging DNA with their spouses. 

That's interesting.  I was just thinking about that today for some reason, thinking that that was a dangling plot thread they'd never followed up on.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Starfish35

[Midnight Lullaby]

The idea of swapping DNA makes me cringe a bit but a role reversal could be fun. At least it gives Iris something new to do.

I have troubles quoting from my phone but wanted to say that I don’t think we were expressing the same concept when talking about “lives that revolve around” a character..of course since Oliver/Barry are the main characters all the stories get tied to them but it doesn’t make very personal situation they live about him. What does Felicity’s company have to do with Oliver? She didn’t start it because of him and he sure won’t go to work there. Or when they brought in her parents..her dad helped them with the main villain but even if at the time Oliver and Felicity were engaged they basically had a parallel SL, he with Thea/MM and Felicity with her dad. This season they switched roles with Oliver at the comms and Felicity in the field for a episode because they brought back what happened with Helix last year, which was about Felicity, not Oliver. Same concept with Diggle when his brother was introduced for example..I’m thinking about SLs that even if Oliver didn’t exist would still be there because they weren’t about him.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Whedon Exits Batgirl Movie

Me:

1. GOOD.
2. Seriously? Because he couldn't come up with a story for her?!
3. FUCK OFF with that Noise that only directors who share the same gender/race of the main character(s) should direct movies going forward.
4. Quick! Someone grab Patty Jenkins!
5. @BkWurm1, did you SEE THIS? (I ask because I know Babs/Batgirl is your favorite character)

[BkWurm1]

10 minutes ago, quarks said:

Oh, sorry for misunderstanding you!

It was the surprise end scene with Cisco and Ray where they both noted that the metahuman of the week hadn't been near Central City during the particle accelerator explosion, and that metahumans were now starting to spontaneously appear elsewhere.  It was an interesting idea....

....and with the very arguable exception of Nate, it's never been brought up since. To the point where Arrow had an elaborate backstory explaining that Dinah was in Central City during the explosion, and the new metahumans on this season of Flash have all been very carefully identified as being either all on the same bus or pregnant or now, I suppose, exchanging DNA with their spouses. 

Thanks!

I remember the observation but I completely forgot Cisco was involved in the scene.  Yeah, it's odd that they've dropped that.  Though I suppose it probably meant that they decided not to explore meta's on Arrow anymore and that's not a bad thing.  

[bijoux]

I honestly still don’t remember the scene. I guess I’ll have to check the S3 finale one of these days.

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Whedon Exits Batgirl Movie

Me:

1. GOOD.
2. Seriously? Because he couldn't come up with a story for her?!
3. FUCK OFF with that Noise that only directors who share the same gender/race of the main character(s) should direct movies going forward.
4. Quick! Someone grab Patty Jenkins!
5. @BkWurm1, did you SEE THIS? (I ask because I know Babs/Batgirl is your favorite character)

I wouldn't say she's my favorite character but I had a lot of really high hopes for what Whedon could do with Batgirl but maybe he is better off with original female characters rather than telling the story of existing ones.  

[Morrigan2575]

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I honestly still don’t remember the scene. I guess I’ll have to check the S3 finale one of these days.

I thought it was in 319, the one where the Electricity Meta comes to Starling City. At the very end you have Ray delivering him to Cisco to put in the Pipeline and that's where it's mentioned.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Morrigan2575

[BkWurm1]

2 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I honestly still don’t remember the scene. I guess I’ll have to check the S3 finale one of these days.

It wouldn't be in the finale (assuming we are both talking about the meta thing).  Was it 3-19?

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just now, BkWurm1 said:

I wouldn't say she's my favorite character but I had a lot of really high hopes for what Whedon could do with Batgirl but maybe he is better off with original female characters rather than telling the story of existing ones.  

I thought for sure you had said she was your favorite? Hmmm...maybe you just said you loved her. It was when we were discussing The Killing Joke, I think.

I don't know about anyone else, but that picture in the article? Whedon looks like he could be Weinstein's twin. (shudder)

[bijoux]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I thought it was in 319, the one where the Electricity Meta comes to Starling City. At the very end you have Ray delivering him to Cisco to put in the Pipeline and that's where it's mentioned.

 

1 minute ago, BkWurm1 said:

It wouldn't be in the finale (assuming we are both talking about the meta thing).  Was it 3-19?

Thanks, I misread an earlier post and thought it was about a scene from the finale.

[scarynikki12]

I think Whedon’s better with original characters generally but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t have done a decent story. Just write a detective story and insert Babs. Or  do a PTSD story about her fear of Joker. Or really anything cause she doesn’t have powers so that isn’t a hindrance. 

I do think this is for the best since he didn’t come up with anything. If Warner Bros had half a brain they’d ask Patty to be a producer and let her have a say in picking the next (lady) director for the movie. Lexi Alexander would probably say no, otherwise I’d have her be my top choice, but there are plenty of women directors who would love the opportunity. 

This probably means Babs won’t get her movie at all now. Such a waste.

[quarks]

16 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I honestly still don’t remember the scene. I guess I’ll have to check the S3 finale one of these days.

It wasn't in the finale - I think it was episode 319? 

Edit: Sorry, I see everyone else answered this before I did! Perils of multitasking.

Edited February 22, 2018 by quarks

[Chaser]

RE: Batgirl

Instead of a movie, I'd like them to go the Netflix route. I can only think of two female lead superhero shows - Jessica Jones/Supergirl - and they both star a woman with powers. I'd like to see a woman without powers become a superhero.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Chaser

[Featherhat]

Whedon's WW script was uh, reportedly not great so I can't say I'm particularly sad, even though I've really enjoyed a lot of what has done. After his JL resorts got a lot of scorn I'm not surprised either though I loved Avengers.

 Nathan Fillion has recently said he wants his new show The Rookie to emulate the experience he had on Firefly:

Me: Dude it's a light cop comedy a lot like Castle (with some of the same writers) where your love interest is a 29 year old. You're not talking about that but you're not actually making me more excited by trying to gain comparisons between the two either. 

[Starry]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

During Flashpoint, Cisco was depicted as the extraordinarily successful leader of Star Labs. Even leaving that aside, other scenes have shown him in a leadership role at Star Labs prior to the particle explosion. He's also taken on leadership roles during the crossover episodes, and he's often the one to make the command decisions out on field missions - something he's continued to do with Iris as team leader. That role was one of the reasons he kept squabbling with Harry.  I'll add that Flash essentially had to create a fight between Cisco and Ralph this season in order to force Iris to step up and make a decision - in previous seasons, Cisco would have taken over and tried to come up with some sort of plan to save both Caitlin and Barry. I agree that it doesn't seem to be his main thing, but I think that claiming that he's never shown any leadership qualities whatsoever is a major misreading of Flash during seasons two and three.

Flashpoint is a different timeline. There was no crime fighting team, no Team Flash prior to the particle accelerator explosion. To me Cisco and Caitlin act more like followers than leaders. They also have issues thinking about repercussions (Cisco in the premiere...).

1 hour ago, quarks said:

Caitlin was also shown taking a leadership/management role at Star Labs before the explosion. She's also taken on leadership roles during the crossover episodes and occasionally during missions. Killer Frost has definitely been shown to have leadership potential.

A villain turned forced hero that appears only when Caitlin gets scared or angry? I am not the biggest fan of Iris as team leader because I want something different for her and from the show but if even Killer Frost* gets praised for her leadership potential while Iris gets deemed "unfit" and "shoehorned" for x number of reasons then it's time for me to bow out of this conversation.

*Apart from not being 100% trustworthy Killer Frost is also a new member since the show decided that her and Caitlin are two different entities inhabiting the same body. Wouldn't she take over the role of the "original members"?

Some of you have mentioned Iris becoming a cop and while I think it wouldn't be a bad idea I bet there would be comments about her taking over Joe's role as well.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Starry

[Morrigan2575]

43 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Whedon Exits Batgirl Movie

Me:

1. GOOD.
2. Seriously? Because he couldn't come up with a story for her?!
3. FUCK OFF with that Noise that only directors who share the same gender/race of the main character(s) should direct movies going forward.
4. Quick! Someone grab Patty Jenkins!
5. @BkWurm1, did you SEE THIS? (I ask because I know Babs/Batgirl is your favorite character)

I'll defer to @quarks on this one but, I'm betting it wasn't so much he couldn't come up with a story for Babs, more like WB didn't like his story.

[Sakura12]

I honestly never expected Batgirl to actually get made, so this news isn't that surprising. However it does show once again the WB has no idea what do with the DCEU. Why are they introducing unknown to the general audience characters like Shazam when they can't even make a good move about the most popular comic book characters Batman and Superman?  After Justice League I'm not even interested in seeing Aquaman and even less interested in seeing Flashpoint with a Flash I barely know. 

[Featherhat]

Flashpoint is one of the weirdest ones. Surely it's a 2nd or 3rd movie in the same way it was 3rd season DCTV and Winter Soldier and Civil War were after First Avenger? 

Miller's Barry was fine but I'm not interested in that movie when I haven't even seen most of his life. I feel like I knew more about Nu Peter Parker after CW.

Shazam I guess that pre JL they were hoping for their own version of Thor/Doctor Strange/Ant Man in terms of knowledge/weird to be at least a moderate hit.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Featherhat

[Mellowyellow]

Watched JL and Spiderman Homecoming.

I think I'm getting old! I watched Spiderman thinking "I don't care about these teeny shenanigans!" Made me feel old but I think that's just me being an old fart, not so much the movie! I do like Tom Holland in the role though and I like how he's very cheerful. HATED all the other Spiderman movies with the mopey Spidermans.

I didn't mind JL but there were a lot of unnecessary scenes imo. And they weren't entertaining ones either. That entire thing with the family with two kids??? They may as well have had a basket of golden retriever puppies pouncing around and then had the heroes saving said puppies at the end. The family just confused us! 

Why is Barry's father so young? Could they not cast anyone older? That was ridiculous! He looked like his big brother without much of an age gap. hehe I spent all the superman scenes trying to see if I could spot the moustache removal!

[Starfish35]

6 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I think I'm getting old! I watched Spiderman thinking "I don't care about these teeny shenanigans!" Made me feel old but I think that's just me being an old fart, not so much the movie!

Lol.  I'm the same.  I'm sure it wasn't a bad movie objectively speaking.  So many people seemed to love it.  But I was not the target audience.  Nothing wrong with Tom Holland but I'm sitting there thinking "wow I could not care less about baby!Spiderman and all this teen angst."  I know technically in the other movies the characters were in high school too, but I guess because the actors were older it didn't hit me so much.  And somehow having Iron Man in the movie ended up lowering the stakes and made Peter come across as an annoying kid (to me).

14 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I didn't mind JL but there were a lot of unnecessary scenes imo. And they weren't entertaining ones either. That entire thing with the family with two kids??? They may as well have had a basket of golden retriever puppies pouncing around and then had the heroes saving said puppies at the end. The family just confused us! 

I didn't think about it until you said it, but you're right about that.  :)  I just watched it a couple of weeks ago.  I didn't think it was terrible, but it wasn't really good either.  It wasn't BvS-level bad, certainly.  It was just....ok, I guess.

[BkWurm1]

I liked Spiderman Homecoming but it definitely was a teen movie.  For me, as long as teen movies aren't just super dumbed down or over the top Nicholas Sparks type drama (Which sadly are rather popular right now) I find i do enjoy them still.  They end up being easy movies to watch.  The stakes are huge for the characters but I suffer less stress cause I know they really aren't so badly off most of the time.  But you have to feel for the poor kid crushing on a girl only to find out

Spoiler

on the way to the school dance, her father is his arch enemy.  Maybe I wasn't supposed to be giggling, but I was still enjoying it, lol.

 

And yes, the stakes were lower, but I was good with that because the stakes shouldn't always be the fate of the world IMO. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'll defer to @quarks on this one but, I'm betting it wasn't so much he couldn't come up with a story for Babs, more like WB didn't like his story.

Well, Whedon himself is quoted as saying he couldn't come up with a story. So that's just him using the "company line?"

Flashpoint is a HORRIBLE idea for a movie. First of all, and I've said it before, but the character of Barry, age-wise was WRONG for the JL movie. Barry should have been Diana, Supes, Arthur and Fatman's contemporary. And not the age a side-kick would be. And I never read the comic, but in the movie, Barry was a FULL GROWN ADULT and really he didn't do it on purpose. In the movie, after visiting his mom's grave, he said he wished she were alive, and the next thing you know, there is no such thing as Flash, Iris is married to someone else and his mother's alive. And the world is on the brink of extinction. With the help of that world's Batman, he tries, and tries, and tries again to fix what he fucked up.

I like/love DC and Marvel equally. But DCEU dropped the ball, and all this rush to "beat" Marvel is resulting in failures, with the exception of Wonder Woman. Gee, I wonder why that is?

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

I think I'm getting old! I watched Spiderman thinking "I don't care about these teeny shenanigans!" Made me feel old but I think that's just me being an old fart, not so much the movie!

I haven't seen the movie so I can't speak to that but for me it's about how the characters behave, not how old they are. don't mind a teen Spiderman as long as he's thinking about saving the world more than if he's wondering if the girl will go to the dance with him. (I  just looked it up on imdb. Did you know that one of the writers was John Francis Daley who played Sweets on Bones?)

7 hours ago, Starry said:

It's not a storyline. Pretty sure it's not going to be permanent.

It's a storyline for an episode but not an arc.  It's Iris, she never gets arcs.

I'm thinking that the "X walks in Y's shoes and understands" storyline that that they did last season for Oliver and Felicity worked so well, the Flash writers thought they would try it. It also has the bonus of letting Iris put on a costume so they never need to do that again.  I'm curious how successful it will be; one of the reasons that it worked on Arrow is because the build=up went through three seasons and the resolution covered at least two and probably more episodes. The Flash seems to be rushing things -- other than that one episode with the therapist where we heard that Barry and Iris are the gold standard for couples (bwahahaha), was it ever a problem?

Six season of Arrowverse in, it seems to me that while it can be a springboard for stories, more often comic canon is a weight dragging a show down by forcing it into a specific mold.  LoT I think is the best of the shows because it rarely is restricted by comic canon. It's worst season was the first with the constant dragging down by the Hawks and Vandal Savage. Once it was allowed to drop those, the show soared. Every character who is on there is because the showrunners think they have a number of things to contribute.

On Arrow, most of the characters were created because they were needed for the story, Diggle, Felicity, Thea, even Moira and Robert.  Diggle was needed to be Oliver's support and Yoda, Felicity was needed to be tech support and so they came in with necessary backgrounds and skills and continue to use those to be salient to the show.  To the Arrow writers credit, they've built on those skills for the characters.  Diggle is the least used althoughthey did have an Army arc for him and occasionally he joins the Suicide Squad. With Thea, they've built on her administrative abilities that she showed in running Verdant in s2 till she was running the mayor's office last season. Felicity fares best; not only did she become VP of Palmer Tech, later it's CEO (with Oliver stating that she's doing a better job than he did), she's building her own company because she no longer has a salary or severance pay. Complex like a real person with real-life problems.

Those characters who came from the comics and don't fit the show have been moved aside or dropped.  The current comics characters that appear to have been forced into the show (Canary V4, Wild Dog, Mr. Terrific) still seem like misses.

The problem with Iris is that her only real purpose is to be Barry's girlfriend/wife/baby mama and so that's all they use her for. They don't need to give her a working life because it's not about Barry so we're left to assume that she's still working her journalism job because we've never been told that she isn't any  more.  Maybe if there was something unique to the character other than being Barry's sibling/girlfriend that the show needed, they would have developed her more. But there really isn't. As others have said, there are enough people on Team Flash already to take over the leadership role.

The time to show that they cared about Iris would have been in Flashpoint where Barry wasn't the Flash and Iris could have been anything -- a reporter a cop, a media mogul. Instead she was still speedster support, this time Wally, because that's all they see her as being.

[Trini]

6 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Is there a reason aside from the meta why Flash would want Barry and Iris to swap? I get when Arrow did it with Felicity and Oliver with Helix and this season in reversal. It was about their relationship. Is there a similar need for Iris and Barry? 

I see it as a fun change of pace and/or a 'what if' episode. The Flash has already done several of those in the past seasons; I've been waiting for them to tackle this particular trope!

 

6 hours ago, quarks said:

During Flashpoint, Cisco was depicted as the extraordinarily successful leader of Star Labs. ...

It's interesting that you mention Flashpoint in relation to leadership, because there, Iris is essentially 'Team Flash' all by herself (while also being an ace reporter); so they've shown her as capable a whole season beforehand.

 

Quote

Or just because they promised to give CP something cool to do, and it might be designed to shut the conversations we've just been having about her up as well.

I doubt they're paying attention to forums at all. But I'm glad that Iris is getting an episode named after her, another episode where she'll the main story.  I love that she's finally got her own solo poster, and it's being used everywhere to promote to the show.

[lemotomato]

58 minutes ago, Trini said:

I love that she's finally got her own solo poster, and it's being used everywhere to promote to the show.

Unless they're going to keep Iris in a mask, they won't be able to use that poster after that one episode, though. It would be false advertising.

[Mary0360]

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Unless they're going to keep Iris in a mask, they won't be able to use that poster after that one episode, though. It would be false advertising.

Since the costume looks really bad and also really cheap, that's probably a good thing. That mask is horrible. 

[WindofChange]

I find it kind of offensive that after 4 years, the first time Iris gets a poster is when she puts on a mask. Is Iris as a normal person worth that little? And it's not like the network can use that poster past 416 so it's only a one time thing which makes it worse.

Edited February 23, 2018 by WindofChange

[Trini]

Iris had a poster for the musical episode (and the crossover wedding, but that was with Barry). The Flash has always only done posters with costumed characters, or a major villain.

[ETA:] I think Supergirl is the only other show to have a poster for a non-costume (non-comic) character - Alex.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Trini

[WindofChange]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

Iris had a poster for the musical episode (and the crossover wedding, but that was with Barry). The Flash has always only done posters with costumed characters, or a major villain.

Don't get me wrong it's great that they make a poster for this episode... Just wish they'd put in more effort when she's her usual self. But I guess if that 1 poster is enough for you then idk I guess we can agree to disagree. 

[Trini]

11 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

Don't get me wrong it's great that they make a poster for this episode... Just wish they'd put in more effort when she's her usual self. But I guess if that 1 poster is enough for you then idk I guess we can agree to disagree. 

I can appreciate and be happy about the good things Iris has while also wanting more for her. I'd rather not look at every development as negative. (I'm not saying that is what you are doing.)

-----

Found the musical posters!

[lemotomato]

37 minutes ago, Trini said:

[ETA:] I think Supergirl is the only other show to have a poster for a non-costume (non-comic) character - Alex.

Felicity got a solo poster 2 years ago:

[Trini]

?

[tv echo]

Heroes Assemble Convention, June 9-10, 2018 (Paris, France)
Guests include Arthur Darvill, Colton Haynes, Willa Holland, Jeremy Jordan, Chyler Leigh, and Katie McGrath.
http://www.empire-conventions.fr/heroes_assemble.html 

Edited February 23, 2018 by tv echo

[tv echo]

'Titans' Casts the Doom Patrol's Robotman (Exclusive)
By RUSS BURLINGAME - February 22, 2018
http://comicbook.com/dc/2018/02/22/titans-jake-michaels-robotman-doom-patrol/

Quote

Jake Michaels has been cast as Cliff Steele, the Doom Patrol member better known as Robotman, on Warner Bros. Television's Titans, ComicBook.com has learned.

Robotman will guest star in one episode of the series, which will launch later this year DC's planned streaming service, with potential to recur.

A former race car driver, Cliff Steele was in a horrific accident that left his body uninhabitable. Cliff’s brain was saved by the mysterious Dr. Niles Caulder and he lives on in a powerful robotic body.

Bruno Bichir will play the wheelchair-bound Caulder, the enigmatic brains behind the Doom Patrol, commonly referred to as "the Chief." April Bowlby will play Rita Farr/Elasti-Girl.

Edited February 23, 2018 by tv echo

[WindofChange]

8 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Felicity got a solo poster 2 years ago:

 

Speaking of which, I demand more. It's ridiculous that they haven't promoted Felicity very much the past 2 years. Dumbass newbies. 

However, I do take comfort in the fact that every SDCC, Felicity is usually the most talked about aspect of the show  :) all they need now is more Felicity posters

[Starry]

13 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Six season of Arrowverse in, it seems to me that while it can be a springboard for stories, more often comic canon is a weight dragging a show down by forcing it into a specific mold. 

So the solution is: write Iris off the show and save The Flash? Because they are not following comic canon in regards to her character. She isn't shown to be working as a reporter like her comic canon counterpart and that is precisely the problem. Having Team STAR Labs take over is for me "forcing the show into a specific mold", the Arrow mold. I got fed up with Arrow when it became clear that everyone had to be a part of the team. Unlike The Flash, Arrow had no character/ship that I adored that made me stay. I have issues with Supergirl as well. I like Legends because it's the only show where having a superhero team makes sense. Plus it's fun. Black Lightning puts the other DCTV shows to shame in that area. There's no Team Black Lightning and it's AMAZING. For all the complaints about Iris taking away from Team Flash (she's not) there's no mention of Team Flash dumbing Barry down so their continuous presence can be justified...

Every character can be taken off a show. Even Barry can disappear. The team will work just fine like his recent prison arc showed. They have Elongated Man after all. That doesn't mean that writing off a character, no matter their profession, would make the show better. I for one am not interested in Barry + the STAR Labs team and their juvenile shenanigans. The show would be flat, even more restrictive than it already is and dull. I haven't read a comic book in my entire life and, strangely enough, the Flash characters that I like are the ones from the comics. The "just a love interest" character and what remains of her family is what makes me stay. I like Cisco but I want more for him. Harry is forced and boring. I despise Kreisberg's self-insert Ralph. Last season made me loathe both Miss "I do shady things but I act like a victim" Caitlin and her alter ego. Wally is gone. Out of all the STAR Labs/meta characters I like two, Barry and Cisco. Take Iris, the West family and Westallen away and the show is dead to me. And I am not even getting into the representation issues since show Iris is black and show Westallen are interracial.

P.s. Barry and Iris are not siblings, were never siblings and will never be siblings.

Edited February 23, 2018 by Starry

[Cleanqueen]

I am honestly sick of the CW DC TV Verse and characters only being promoted because they now have a mask on. Also, all this promotion is clearly there to just appease Iris fans and say "hey look we're giving the character something complete with a poster and all the media outlets talking about it", just for it to go back to the status quo on the next episode.

Also, am I the only one annoyed that Zari didn't get a poster complete with her costume, I mean if everyone else is getting it why hasn't she?

[bijoux]

I’m still working my way through season 1 of LoT, and while they mostly get the blame, not undeservedly, I don’t think Kendra, Carter and Savage are the only problems. Carter was missing for most of the season, and Savage wasn’t even in every episode. Yet some of them, the space one is the first to come to mind, are hella boring to me.

I do feel things picked up with the episode with the legends’ younger versions and the following one in 2166 is also pretty good for the most part. Still, the time masters are kind of the dumb. They sent the Pilgrim after Sara in 2007 in the middle of a police station, instead of, oh, I don’t know, a few months later when she was drifting in the open sea and would have been killed by just being pushed of whatever she was using as a raft? Those two minutes with Lance were fun, but still.

Speaking of 2166, that one ended circling back to the original “triangle”. Does that mean they remain the focus for the last three episodes?

Also, I’m not really sure how Sara and Snart developed a following. Aside from them almost freezing to death together and Sara cooing over baby Snart, I can’t remember them sharing much that mattered.

[Sakura12]

Sara and Snart were not because of the writers, it was the little things that Wentworth added that showed that Snart was crushing on Sara hard. It was more in the final few episodes that Sara started responding more to his flirting. I guess for me they were more a what could've been relationship that would never have a chance to be messed up the writers. 

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

Every character can be taken off a show. Even Barry can disappear.

If only!

[WindofChange]

1 hour ago, Starry said:

Even Barry can disappear.

I think this makes it easier for the Flash to have a reboot of characters. 

The show could easily flash forward and focus on Dawn Allen and leave Grant/Candice/etc. behind and I think the audience wouldn't mind it. Only because Barry is the worst and he's not really a hero many can root for.

1 hour ago, Starry said:

P.s. Barry and Iris are not siblings, were never siblings and will never be siblings.

If only the writers didn't make Iris tell Barry that he's like her brother in the series premiere... They could've avoided having people think this by removing that statement and all the dialogue that point to this... but alas...... 

Edited February 23, 2018 by WindofChange

[Sakura12]

Barry and Iris are not blood siblings, but they are foster siblings and that doesn't take away the sibling part. 

If they really want to make people forget that Barry and Iris are not like brother and sister, then they should've stopped the "our father" mentions about Joe or having Joe saying he raised both of them and Barry is like a son to him. Which if Barry is like a son to him, how is Barry not like a brother to Iris?

ETA: And didn't Wally call Barry his brother when he lost his memory causing Barry to look at his skin color. 

How is Iris the only one exempt from the sibling/family consideration with Barry?

Edited February 23, 2018 by Sakura12

[quarks]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

It's interesting that you mention Flashpoint in relation to leadership, because there, Iris is essentially 'Team Flash' all by herself (while also being an ace reporter); so they've shown her as capable a whole season beforehand.

She wasn't Team Flash all by herself - she was working with Wally.

But I wasn't arguing - and haven't argued - that Iris is incapable of leading.  She is; that's in the script and absolutely canon. I was responding to the claim that Cisco and Caitlin have never shown any leadership skills whatsoever, a claim that is false in canon, and worse, ignores pretty much Cisco's entire character arc (from comedy sidekick to potential hero to leader-in-training last season) - made not by you, but by a poster who had earlier tried to argue that yes, Iris could still be/is working at CCRN this season even though Flash hasn't indicated this at all in the script - not even a "I gotta get to work, babe." I don't think you can both argue that Iris is still working at CRRN and ignore Cisco's in canon leadership moments/character arc.

(Incidentally I'm as mindboggled as anyone else that Team Flash has decided to keep Killer Frost as a team member - it makes even less sense than Oliver's "sure, let's join forces with Malcolm Merlyn!" deal since at least it can be kinda argued that Malcolm had some critical information/experience, which is not really true for Killer Frost, but....she has been brought onto the team and is going out with them in the field and is accepted as a member of the team, so....yeah, her leadership/potential leadership is relevant here.)

I mention this partly because of the contradiction, but also because I think this might help explain some of the fan response to Iris finally taking a leadership role.  Many Arrow fans, for instance, were upset when, after spending four years establishing Felicity as the resident tech wizard/quasi science expert, Arrow gave some of that role to Curtis in late season four and beyond.  And Nate showing up to take over some of Ray's role as Well Meaning Lovable Doofus didn't exactly enthrall all Legends of Tomorrow fans. I've been begging to see Flash take advantage of Candice Patton (who frankly is far better than the role of Iris, as currently written, deserves) for years now, and let her do things - interrogate prisoners, investigate crimes, and so on - but that doesn't necessary mean wanting to see Flash abandoning a three-year long plot of letting Cisco grow into a leader.  

 

33 minutes ago, Starry said:

I got fed up with Arrow when it became clear that everyone had to be a part of the team.

Season two aside, this is not true. Season one of Arrow went out of its way to keep people off the team, even dropping the storyline that featured Thea investigating Oliver to do so, killing Tommy off, not to mention the "WE ARE NOT HAVING HUNTRESS ON THIS TEAM, THANKS" subplot. (Notably, Arrow didn't have Team Arrow until 14 episodes in - and in the very next episode, Felicity briefly quit the team.) Season three of Arrow featured Ray turning himself into a solo superhero with no interest in joining Team Arrow, and Laurel telling Oliver that she was not part of his team, and making herself a vigilante.  It also featured a huge plot/argument about whether or not adding Malcolm to Team Arrow was a good idea.  We can argue about how successful any of these storylines were (I'd argue not very), but at no point in the season did Arrow argue that everyone had to be part of the team: indeed, season three ended with the argument that it was probably better to not have everyone on the team. (Alas, it did not end with Malcolm getting kicked off a cliff.) Season three also featured a character leaving the team with no hard feelings - yes, that was for BTS reasons, but it happened. Season four featured Ray and Sara heading off to another show, and ended with everyone except for Felicity leaving Team Arrow.  Season five started with Oliver insisting that he didn't even need a team, continued with Thea refusing to be part of Team Arrow except when aliens were invading during the crossovers and a team member betraying Team Arrow.  Season six started with Oliver leaving Team Arrow (really, under the circumstances, you can't blame him) and continued with Slade deciding not to join Team Arrow. (Again, BTS stuff, but that happened on screen.) As of right now, the main plot is focused on Team Arrow  and later featured Team Arrow splitting into two teams, with clearly not everyone agreeing that they had to be part of the team. Thea still hasn't returned.

Supergirl hasn't insisted that everyone has to be part of the team either - James does his own thing as Guardian. I suspect BTS shenanigans are behind that since that plotline has never been particularly convincing, but it's there. It's a bit early to judge Black Lightning on this, but so far they don't seem to be going this route.

The shows that have insisted that everyone be part of the team? Legends of Tomorrow and Flash. Indeed, both of these shows started out with teams, with Team Flash coming together in the pilot episode. (In contrast, Oliver didn't even reveal his identity until the end of episode 103, and didn't start working with Diggle until episode 104.) Apart from a brief moment at the beginning of season two, when Barry insisted on operating alone, Barry has tended to bring everyone into Team Flash, even when others have had doubts. He wanted to work with Oliver, for instance, even with Joe and Reverse-Flash going, uh, maybe not; he brought Julian in despite the doubts of Julian and others; and this season he recruited Ralph. (Sigh). 

Quote

 strangely enough, the Flash characters that I like are the ones from the comics. [....] I despise Kreisberg's self-insert Ralph. 

For some strange reason Flash has given Ralph the personality of Plastic Man instead of Elongated Man, but Ralph/Elongated Man is very definitely from the comics - a comparatively minor character, but he's been around since the 1960s. (He had a great team up with Batman in the 1970s.) For that matter, Plastic Man is also very definitely from the comics - that character was created in 1941, shortly after Jay Garrick made his first comics appearance. 

Joe West, someone you seem to like, is not from the comics, but an original character created for the show. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

42 minutes ago, WindofChange said:

The show could easily flash forward and focus on Dawn Allen and leave Grant/Candice/etc. behind and I think the audience wouldn't mind it. Only because Barry is the worst and he's not really a hero many can root for.

The only viewers I've come across who feel the way about the line I bolded, are on this site. I don't think Barry is the worst. And I do think he is a hero people can root for. But potatoes and potahtoes and all that.

[scarynikki12]

2 hours ago, bijoux said:

Also, I’m not really sure how Sara and Snart developed a following. Aside from them almost freezing to death together and Sara cooing over baby Snart, I can’t remember them sharing much that mattered.

Wentworth and Caity got along really well from the start and he then decided to play Snart as insta-crushing on Sara from the moment the characters met.  When we all thought he would be a regular for years we assumed it was partially because the characters in popular ships get the most attention and, by extension, more screentime and longevity.  They both pushed the Sara/Snart ship the entire season as well, giving that theory more credence.  The show started responding to Miller's portrayal after a few episodes, showing the two growing closer by giving them a regular card game during downtime and their one-on-one scenes where they nearly froze to death.  Caity also played Sara as having a much weaker, but still present, attraction to Snart in response.  The reveal that Miller was leaving as a regular but willing to guest star moved the ship from "slow build and based on friendship" to "only in our hearts".  We now assume that he played Snart that way because he wanted to have fun since it was his only full season and picked Sara because of how well he got on with Caity behind the scenes.  I don't remember if he's given any LOT interviews where he talked about Snart's crush in any detail but I don't think so.

[WindofChange]

27 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

The only viewers I've come across who feel the way about the line I bolded, are on this site.

Well I guess you haven't seen some of the articles that talked about how Barry is a villain of The Flash or the complaints I've seen on twitter/tumblr/comment sections of websites like AV Club etc.? 

I didn't say "not a hero anyone can root for" I said "not a hero many can root for" not the same thing. 

You don't have to trust me on this but there are many people who wouldn't mind if Flash did a reboot and these people aren't hard to find if you look for them.

[SmallScreenDiva]

2 hours ago, WindofChange said:

The show could easily flash forward and focus on Dawn Allen and leave Grant/Candice/etc. behind and I think the audience wouldn't mind it. Only because Barry is the worst and he's not really a hero many can root for.

I think this might be a harder sell that you would think. I'm not a Flash or Barry fan but I'm thinking the one of the key reasons Flash is as successful as it is is because of Grant's version of Barry, who may or may not be the worst but is still watched by about 2 million viewers every week. Just my 2 cents.

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, Starry said:

So the solution is: write Iris off the show and save The Flash? Because they are not following comic canon in regards to her character. She isn't shown to be working as a reporter like her comic canon counterpart and that is precisely the problem.

I explained badly. The Flash writers don't care about Iris but have her there because she's comic canon. So now that she's reached her destiny of Barry's girlfriend/wife that's all she's going to do.  (Seriously, her plan to get Barry back is to get herself kidnapped?  Of course, it's the pinnacle of being Barry's SO until she has his kids.) I have doubts about the usefulness of a reporter in 2018, even Supergirl can't figure out what to do with it and they have their title character working as a reporter, but The Flash isn't even trying to give Iris a life outside of Barry.

I like Iris except when she's being a 50's TV housewife and these days that's all she is.  I like Caitlin when she's being the smart scientist that she is, and not when she's a wimminz* helpless because she's a meta while the men handle it just fine. Looking at the initial Barry episodes and even season 1 and how much I liked Grant's portrayal makes me sad at how much I don't like Barry any more. I still like Wells but Cisco has been ruined, Ralph is the worst of white male privilege writing and Joe is the most biased "good" father on TV.

The Flash is geared towards 8 year old boys.  If they want me back, don't replace Iris, replace the writers room.

*General Hospital reference for @GHScorpiosRule