Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[yellowfred]

I believe Lionel Luthor is from the comics, but I'm pretty sure Lillian Luthor was created for Smallville.  

5 hours ago, leopardprint said:

Birds of Prey was before my time and I never saw the BC on Smallville. Has there been a successful live action interpretation of her? It seems like Sara is it. 

Yeah, that seems so strange to me.  Like, there's really nothing about the character that should make her difficult to translate to live action.  Admittedly, the canary cry always looks kind of dumb in live action, but it's used pretty sparingly in the comics, so there's no reason they couldn't do the same thing with a live action version of her.  Or, they could use something like the sonic grenades that Sara used and which, I still maintain, looked awesome in practice.  I think part of the problem, though, is that they keep trying to do massive reinterpretations of the character when a more direct translation was probably the better way to go.

[Primal Slayer]

Problem is that she's always been 2nd tier to the people that end up adapting her. Arrow couldn't have a female overshadow Oliver and wanted a BB rip off. Smallville already had Oliver and wanted to pair him with a main character (Lois & Chloe which is kind of funny....cousins to sisters). Birds of Prey was just weird, they used Helena but E2 Helena, turned her and Catwoman into Metas, did a fantastic job at Barbara, but was very loose on everyone else.

It's like everyone trying to adapt WW apart from Linda Carters series. Never got a good grasp on the character. Lois is the only DC female to consistently be adapted well. But Arrow just doesnt bode well for big time comic females. DLL/Waller/Helena all got the shaft.

[Starfish35]

Yeah the Black Canary on Birds of Prey was Carolyn Lance, Dinah's mother.  Dinah was a meta with some kind of touch telepathy and telekinesis.  She didn't have the Canary Cry, although I think she probably would have eventually developed it if the show hadn't been cancelled.

I'm not sure how much of what happened with Laurel was from the writers and how much was network interference, because I think KC has said something about the character being changed from what she first saw.    I have wondered whether the former Gossip Girl network wanted them to change the female lead into something they were familiar with, and that Sara ended up being truer to the EPs original vision.  I have nothing to back that up though - it's just speculation.

[Lokiberry]

Dang, Berlanti ought to make his writers watch Agents of Shield because their version of Doomworld is putting his to shame.

[kismet]

7 hours ago, way2interested said:

But, just as exciting, so is Cat Grant:

 

Personally for me that is more exciting news. They are pulling out the big guns, I might even turn in for Cat Grant! Haven't been able to for most of the season. And then have not been inspired to watch online. I really want them to move Supergirl off of Mon nights, I just have too much to watch then. I wish they would just put the Flash on Mondays. I wouldn't mind Supergirl on Thurs @ 8p.

[kismet]

6 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

And it wasn't a matter of them getting carried away as the season went along.  They gave Sara pretty much everything in the first half of the season; the costume, the skills, the Canary cry grenades, the Clocktower, Sin....  not to mention a season-long backstory arc in the flashbacks.   They went way way way overboard for just a "proto-Canary".  It boggles the mind that they would have done all of that knowing they were just going to have to redo it all for Laurel.  I don't buy it - sorry.

I posted my theory in the LL thread, but my belief is that they never intended to give the backstory or origins to LL. They figured giving it to SL would be enough, and it would just transfer over to LL after she got the mask, legacy and all. They couldn't rewrite LL's origin, so they substituted and shortcut it by giving it to SL who they could write from scratch.

Quote

If I recall correctly, AK was also the one that claimed that they always intended to resurrect Sara (after her death in season three), so I tend to be deeply skeptical of his claims that Sara was supposed to be part of Laurel's journey to BC.  In my personal opinion, that was damage control, after the president of the CW let the cat out of the bag regarding Sara's casting.

I will never believe they had any intention of resurrecting SL after killing her so dramatically & graphically. That I believe was PR or damage control. Or may be in AK's head the option was always open to bring her back from the dead, just not in the writers room or plans. I do think SL was always supposed to be proto-Canary, I just don't think they realized how good she would be at it.

[yellowfred]

3 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

Dang, Berlanti ought to make his writers watch Agents of Shield because their version of Doomworld is putting his to shame.

Yeah, I think the cool thing about the Shield version of Doomworld is that, instead of it being a bunch of villains making the world how they want (which you know is going to be terrible, because villains), it's a bunch of heroes making the world that they think they want (which shouldn't be so much worse, but it is).  

[Mellowyellow]

OMG Shield was so so so good this week. I got chills while watching it. Hubby and I were glued to the screen. 

My ship has probably blown to bits but I didn't care because it was an amazing episode. So good. 

[Delphi]

14 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Superman is on his way back to the little screen.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2017/04/11/supergirl-tyler-hoechlin-confirm-return-season-2/

 

14 hours ago, way2interested said:

But, just as exciting, so is Cat Grant:

Oh finally!  I get to tune back in!

 

But is this a coincidence with the characters or did Cat finally manage to take that crush on Clark and move it to the next level?

[Velocity23]

Wow get excited ...! s3 finale of Flash is gonna involve 

Spoiler

Barrys mom!

 

[tv echo]

More old EP interviews about Sara and Laurel...

TV Line interview with Andrew Kreisberg (Jan. 14, 2014):

Quote

You know, it’s been somewhat hard, I think, for Katie and us to hear some of the criticisms of her character because we don’t do anything without thinking about it. And one of the great things about having as much success as we had in Season 1 was the freedom to allow things to unfold the way that they should. We’ve always had a fantastic plan for Laurel’s character, and I know that there’s impatience out there in the world to see her “strap on the fish nets” [as Black Canary] but everything we’re doing is all about leading up to that in a the way that we feel keeps it the most realistic and grounded. To take somebody who is a public interest lawyer and turned her into a super hero… you have to go through the paces. So this season we’ve really been putting her through her paces. We always think of these things as chapters, and these next four episodes are really about Laurel. She’s taking center stage as she begins to suspect that Sebastian is not exactly who he seems.

TV Guide interview with Andrew Kreisberg (Apr. 16, 2014):

Quote

In the comics, the alter ego eventually belongs to Rose Wilson, Slade's illegitimate daughter who he brainwashes into becoming his apprentice. However, Isabel is definitely not Rose Wilson, since the producers decided to go in a different direction. In fact, they originally had other plans for Ravager. "Isabel was the one thing we weren't entirely sure about as we were developing the season," Kreisberg says. "Truthfully, there was a very early iteration of the series where Sara [Caity Lotz] started the season as Ravager, and then we switched over."

Edited April 12, 2017 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

Has there been a Flash finale that didn't involve Barry's mother?  The kid has serious parental issues.

I counted 8 men and 3 women in that scene. The Flash continues to be a Boy's Own fantasy adventure.

8 minutes ago, tv echo said:

You know, it’s been somewhat hard, I think, for Katie and us to hear some of the criticisms of her character because we don’t do anything without thinking about it. And one of the great things about having as much success as we had in Season 1 was the freedom to allow things to unfold the way that they should. We’ve always had a fantastic plan for Laurel’s character, and I know that there’s impatience out there in the world to see her “strap on the fish nets” [as Black Canary] but everything we’re doing is all about leading up to that in a the way that we feel keeps it the most realistic and grounded. To take somebody who is a public interest lawyer and turned her into a super hero… you have to go through the paces. So this season we’ve really been putting her through her paces.

I can appreciate that it was hard for KC to hear the criticisms of her character. But you know what, AK?  It's in your hand to fix it.

So that's what AK thinks is realistic and grounded?  It's interesting that they appear to have thought the addiction stuff and Blood to have been Laurel's island, and it never occurred to them to give her they physical skills to put on the costume as well.

[Morrigan2575]

Maybe Barry is dead and his mom came to collect his ghost? ??

[apinknightmare]

RUN TOWARD THE LIGHT, BARRY. RUN.

[Sakura12]

I really hope Barry's not going to go back and save his mother again. I don't know how were supposed to think Barry's not selfish. Especially when they had Sara choose not to rewrite reality because she knows that it's selfish. 

The Legends may screw up time, but it's not to save only one person. And Barry will only do that for the people he cares about. Sorry, Cisco I can't mess up time to save your brother. Oh no Iris is going to die, everyone run around and drop everything to help me save Iris. And my mother again. 

[ruby24]

I think that's the speedforce in the form of his mom taking him away. Looks like he's sacrificing himself.

Also not sure if that's the last scene of the episode. 

[statsgirl]

I really think that one of the things that is saving LoT is that AK is nowhere near it.  Guggie is not the greatest writer but at least he's not using his shows to project his counter transference onto.

So Barry bids a sad goodbye to Iris and all his buddies and walks away with his mom.  The most important relationships in Barry's life are with his dads (apparently including his new dad Jay) and his mom.

ETA:

Quote

I think that's the speedforce in the form of his mom taking him away. Looks like he's sacrificing himself.

Even if it is the speed force, it's still in the form of his mom.

Edited April 12, 2017 by statsgirl

[Starfish35]

Just now, statsgirl said:

I really think that one of the things that is saving LoT is that AK is nowhere near it.

I agree.

[Velocity23]

So i guess this tweet from CG plays into why Barry needs to sacrifice himself

Spoiler

 

[Proteus]

Is there some spoiler rule for this thread? Because hiding the content but openly talking about it kind of makes hiding the content mute.

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, Proteus said:

Is there some spoiler rule for this thread? Because hiding the content but openly talking about it kind of makes hiding the content mute.

IIRC a mod said it's fine to post spoilers because it's specified this thread contains spoilers.

[kismet]

It's not a spoiler free zone. People are allowed to talk openly about spoilers. I just think some people are more aware that people may not want to know stuff so they spoiler hide it. Which is nice, but I also understand people not wanting/needing spoiler tags. It's a grey area. Sort of like viewing an media site now, where they drop which characters are returning to the show in the headlines, not even given the option of the viewer avoiding knowing that x actor is returning. I've stopped following Arrow spoilers, but I can basically know the casting highlights from scanning the TvLine main page, which never used to be the case. I think the world is just moving to a less spoiler protective place.

Also, on a side note - is the finale being about BA's mommy issues & whether or not he is selfish/sacrificing again really a spoiler?? At this point, his Mom never appearing again in the Flash ever would be a spoiler & a shocker. I just expected her to come up every so many episodes, just like I expect him to solve everything by running fast and his friends to always forgive/enable his behaviors good or bad.

[Carrie Ann]

I don't think it's a grey area--I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to use spoiler tags in threads that are marked with the spoiler badge.

[kismet]

I think the rule is we do not have to use spoiler tags in a spoiler badge thread. I don't believe there is any rule against people using spoiler tags by their choosing.

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, kismet said:

I think the rule is we do not have to use spoiler tags in a spoiler badge thread. I don't believe there is any rule against people using spoiler tags by their choosing.

Actually the Mods have repeatedly said not to use spoiler tags in this thread.

[kismet]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Actually the Mods have repeatedly said not to use spoiler tags in this thread.

Well I leave the moderating of the thread to the moderators. I was simply saying I don't mind if people use or don't use spoiler tags. I can see both sides of the argument. The tags are nice because I can avoid what I don't want to see yet. People's post I can just skim  or avoid if  I see it references stuff I haven't seen or don't want to know about. It's easier to skim over posts than large font photos & texts. But whatever works is fine with me. Not trying to change anything.

Edited April 12, 2017 by kismet

[Starfish35]

[legaleagle53]

14 hours ago, Delphi said:

 

Oh finally!  I get to tune back in!

 

But is this a coincidence with the characters or did Cat finally manage to take that crush on Clark and move it to the next level?

That would have been rather difficult, since he's married to Lois Lane.

[kismet]

Being married never stopped people before. Although I doubt Supergirl will go that route.

[Featherhat]

18 hours ago, Delphi said:

 

Oh finally!  I get to tune back in!

 

But is this a coincidence with the characters or did Cat finally manage to take that crush on Clark and move it to the next level?

Well she was there when Superman/Clark dropped in last time and made it clear there was a very unrequited crush on Clark. Since then she's been on a Around the World cruise, so I say finale coincidence.

[Velocity23]

[bijoux]

I accidentally ran across Flash 103 and gave it a chance. I didn't know that was also Captain Cold's first episode. I know I was left with the impression that WM overacted in this role and he really didn't in this episode. Maybe it was a later appearance or something from LoT. I actually really liked him here, he was just right.

Man alive, is Joe always this much of a whiny brat? He was giving Iris the cold shoulder or sassing her throughout the episode because he found out she was dating Eddie. Grow up, man!

On a shallow note, that black dress was help together by string and good will.

The voice overs are no better than Arrow's, really.

[kismet]

So I was burning through some tapes while I was doing my taxes for background noise. And I had a few episodes of Flash on there and I liked them. I like what they tried to do (not sure if still doing it) with Iris & her kid brother. I love when Iris gets to be more than the girlfriend. It's really fun. Plus CP can sell the investigative reporter on a mission vibe. BA seems to be trying to be more of a team player.

I got to see the Grodd episode, loved Draco dressed up as Indy. And while I don't care much for Cisco, I do find his vibing powers a nice addition to the team. I also like that he is standing up for himself more this season.

Overall, I still think the Flash is the most simplistic of the Flarrowverse shows - but I do believe they are making an effort to not have every episode be about BA running. I have seen more about the other characters, even if I've already lived these plots before multiple times.

If you asked me to rate the 3 OG shows of the Flarrowverse (minus SG), I would have to say that LoT is my favorite & the best written by a good margin. And I am preferring Flash over Arrow. I mean just typing that makes me take pause. I loved Arrow, but it's really failed to live up to expectations even after I lowered them again. Whereas, I'm being presently surprised by Flash every time I catch up with a few scenes or have it on as background noise. It's funny they put LoT on after Flash to bring viewers to it and for me I think it was the opposite and it helped me wonder back into Flash. By all means it's still not a great show or one I could see myself watching again again or again. But it's been entertaining enough to pass the time when it happens to be on.

[Primal Slayer]

I like Cisco but his powers annoy me. It seems like he can see into the past/present/future, jump Earths, use the power offensively. A lot at once. 

[statsgirl]

I liked Cisco in s1 but they've made him into such a Gary Stu, I can't watch him any more. The show has ruined him.  Between his tech genius and his vibing powers and his romantic hero that started with dating Ciara, there is nothing he doesn't do, while other characters (i.e. female ones) get short shrift.

[BkWurm1]

2 hours ago, kismet said:

you asked me to rate the 3 OG shows of the Flarrowverse (minus SG), I would have to say that LoT is my favorite & the best written by a good margin. And I am preferring Flash over Arrow. I mean just typing that makes me take pause. I loved Arrow, but it's really failed to live up to expectations even after I lowered them again. Whereas, I'm being presently surprised by Flash every time I catch up with a few scenes or have it on as background noise. It's funny they put LoT on after Flash to bring viewers to it and for me I think it was the opposite and it helped me wonder back into Flash. By all means it's still not a great show or one I could see myself watching again again or again. But it's been entertaining enough to pass the time when it happens to be on.

Arrow is THE show that I care the most about but this year LoT took the lead as the most enjoyable show though Arrow might regain the lead in the next few episodes.  But Flash was terrible for the first half of the season.  Worse than Arrow since at least I love the characters on Arrow still even if the show had been sucking.  Supergirl was above Flash on my list too since my standards for it were lower.  I do love Julian though. 

Edited April 14, 2017 by BkWurm1

[EmilyBettFan]

Can't stand the Flash anymore. I watch sometimes if Arrow crossovers/Felicity or it's a heavy Caitlin episode. She's my fave on the Flash. The other ones are so whiny.

[BunsenBurner]

I have stopped all shows but Arrow. I will not watch any other Berlanti productions.

[tv echo]

This news could've also been posted in the Arrow Stars in Other Roles thread, but since it's about the new Aquaman movie...

Dolph Lundgren Joins Jason Momoa in 'Aquaman' (Exclusive)
APRIL 12, 2017 4:34pm PT by Borys Kit
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/aquaman-dolph-lundgren-joins-cast-993459

Quote

Jason Momoa is starring as the title character, and the film's call sheet includes Amber Heard as Mera, Aquaman's royal love interest; Nicole Kidman as Aquaman’s mother; and Patrick Wilson as Orm, a villain who happens to be Aquaman’s half-brother.
*  *  *
Lundgren will play King Nereus of the aquatic kingdom of Xebel, who claims Mera as his own and wants to kill Aquaman.

Edited April 14, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

WONDER WOMAN: Director Talks Battle Scenes & More
Published on Apr 13, 2017, by DC Entertainment

Edited April 14, 2017 by tv echo

[Trini]

The CW needs to fight superhero fatigue: The blueprint for 2017-18

Quote

The CW got a big upgrade on Monday nights this season with the addition of “Supergirl.” The rest of the schedule? Not so much.

The network’s ratings have fallen a little bit year to year; it’s currently running a tenth of a point behind last season among adults 18-49 (0.7 vs. 0.8 in 2015-16). All of its veteran series are down. ...

Quote

What’s working

“Supergirl”: That Monday upgrade is real. Ratings have predictably fallen off since its move from CBS — but it’s more than doubled the 8 p.m. Monday average from last season (when “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend” and “Reign” occupied the spot). It was a smart pickup for the network, and it’s unlikely a new show in the same spot would have performed as well

“Supernatural”: The show is down a little season to season — like most everything else on the network — but it’s 12 years old and still drawing a reliable audience. It’s among the six longest-running dramas on network TV at the moment.

Quote

What’s not working

Superhero fatigue: “Legends of Tomorrow” has dipped 20 percent year to year, “The Flash” 21 percent and “Arrow” an unpleasant 31 percent. A full 40 percent of the network’s schedule for much of the season was devoted to DC superheroes, and the returns are diminishing. ...

Quote

What’s needed

A (somewhat) broader focus: The CW has shed one limiting identity — that it’s a network for teenage girls, which was itself a relic of The WB days — for another: that it’s only for comic-book fans. That might not be entirely true (see “Jane the Virgin” and “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend,” for instance), but it’s not entirely false either. It might help to push against that perception a little.

...

The CW only programs 10 hours per week, and when four of those hours are taken up with DC shows the #brand may be pretty well set in people’s minds. It’s worth examining, though, how the network wants to sell itself with those other six hours.

[Velocity23]

I find the spin for Supergirl hilarious. It improved the timeslot on Mondays but the ratings arent stellar at all. And there was a big drop from its season premiere also. 

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

I find the spin for Supergirl hilarious. It improved the timeslot on Mondays but the ratings arent stellar at all. And there was a big drop from its season premiere also. 

Ironically you could say the same about Arrow, LoT or SPN if they were moved to Monday's at 8. Even with a timeslot drop they'd still have improved Monday's. Last year it was JTV and CEG kind of hard not to improve on a 0.4/0.3.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Velocity23]

3 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Ironically you could say the same about Arrow, LoT or SPN if they were moved to Monday's at 8, even with you timeslot drop they'd still have improved Monday's. Last year it was JTV and CEG kind of hard not to improve on a 0.4/0.3

LOT also improved the timeslot after Flash. The dramedy airing in fall was doing a 0.2 by the end and Izombie is around 0.4/0.3. But still LOT was just constant in their ratings between 0.5 - 0.7. 

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

 

I posted this yesterday in the SPN ratings thread. 

Arrow has a 0.65, LoT has a 0.64 and SPN is 0.61, they're all very close in ratings.

Riverdale, Reign, The Orignals, iZombie, The 100, JTV, CEG as well as No Tomorrow, and Frequency (both probably cancelled) all score lower than the oldest series on the network.

The only 2 shows with substantially better ratings are Flash (1.07) and Supergirl (.78) 

Supergirl dropped 55% granted, that included a network switch

I-Zombie dropped 42% (so far only 2 episode)

Crazy Ex Girlfriend dropped 35%

Arrow and The 100 both dropped 34%

Reign dropped 33%

The Vampire Diaries dropped 25%

Flash dropped 22%

Legends of Tomorrow dropped 20%

The Originals dropped 18% (so far, only 4 episodes)

Supernatural dropped 15%

JTV Dropped 2% 

[tv echo]

LoT-related posts at https://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/ on April 14...

unchartedsaralance asked:
Why isn't Sara Lance using much of her bo staff on Legends anymore? Sara Lance is one the the best fighter and she is so good at using the bo staffs and swords. We definitely need to see more of that and her epic fight scenes. They're just brilliantly executed.
Gonna be honest with you:  I think Caity is so much cooler with the truncheons rather than the bo-staff – has to do with her training – that I broke the bo-staff in 201 and told the stunt department to design/choreograph for truncheons.  My call.

You should have black siren as a regular, or at least multi-episode guest, on legends of tomorrow at some point people have wanted to see her fight with or aganst sara for ages
Katie is already a series regular on Arrow, which logistically and contractually makes it impossible for her to be a series regular on Legends, as well.  But we love having Caity and Katie in scenes together, so…

Edited April 15, 2017 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Gonna be honest with you:  I think Caity is so much cooler with the truncheons rather than the bo-staff – has to do with her training – that I broke the bo-staff in 201 and told the stunt department to design/choreograph for truncheons.  My call.

Wait.  Sara doesn't use the truncheon aka police club, that's Laurel.  And she definitely used her bo staff long after 201. Sara does use two short sticks though (that  Caity trained in after Sara was killed) which look cool IMO, but I hate the billy club.  Looks stupid for a mask.

Edited April 15, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Primal Slayer]

Lol MG cant even keep it straight. But I hated Laurel having the police club, could've given her a better weapon or had her use or given her more stylized tonfas then just the straight up club. Though they did have her use them as tonfas like twice.

[LeighAn]

I actually think it's quiet possible that fans know more about the continuity of the show then Marc does. I thought Sara was fighting with a BO staff in 3x01?

[Lokiberry]

Doesn't Sara use escrima sticks? When does she use a truncheon? I'm not sure Guggie knows what he's talking about.