Mind Your Surroundings: Arrow, The Flash, Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow and Other Superhero Universes

[nksarmi]

My problem goes beyond that, even, because they legit reduced Natasha to love interest. It's not the who, it's that Natasha didn't have anything else to do other than mommy the Hulk, thirst for Bruce, and then get kidnapped by the monologuing robot so she could be saved by the dude. Damseling 101, WTF, JOSS? If they had done the same thing with Nat/Somebody Else, I'd still find it gross. I ended up going back and watching the movie a second time, and it ended up being my mistake, because all I could see was that this script plainly ignores lots of the characters development that happened in IM3 and Cap 2, but *especially for Natasha*.

Maybe Joss was focused on developing Wanda?  Because I think she kind of rocked.

 

I wasn't totally offended by Natasha's LI story - I just found it odd.  I liked that they showed just how close she and Clint were - that his kids thought of her as aunt Natasha.  I liked them referencing a little bit of how she was "made" which seems to have lined up with her comic backstory per wiki.  I didn't really see her going backwards in terms of character development and it seemed to me that she was a vital member of the team. Of course, I must say that I much preferred her dynamic with Steve in Cap 2 when she was definitely flirting with him, but it was a very minor part of the story. The LI angle here just wasn't necessary and I don't think they sold it well.   

 

I wonder though if the reason it was done is because those two will play a part in Captain America: Civil War.  I would expect in any conflict between Tony and Steve for Natasha to support Steve and Banner to side with Tony - especially after the male bonding they went through in this movie.  So perhaps the romantic angle between Nat and Banner was setup in this movie to come back in that movie?  If that is the case, they could have done a better job of it, but maybe there will be payoff for it later.

[Danny Franks]

I've not seen Avengers: Age of Ultron yet, but as a faithful comic book fanboy, the idea of Nat/Bruce puts me off. One of the few guys she's not been lumbered with over the years, and Whedon decides to do it in the movie? Why?

 

Seems like kind of a waste of time, 

[BkWurm1]

I think the Bruce/Natasha pairing made sense in that these two characters have a lot of reasons to want to just leave everything behind and escape from their pasts. I'll leave it at that since saying much else would be spoilery.

Since becoming an Arrow fan I've paid Barton a little more attention. Oliver could only hope for what he has. Not going to happen though. Even if he ever was stable enough for the HEA, he's still not going to live in the country. If nothing else, his wife would not survive without good wifi. ;)

[Sakura12]

Over in the Movie board, we're ranking the movies and TV shows in the Marvel Universe. These are mine. 

 

Guardians Of The Galaxy
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
The Avengers
Agent Carter
Daredevil
Iron Man
Agent Carter's Adventures with Captain America: The First Avenger
Agents of SHIELD
Avengers Age Of Ultron
Iron Man II
Iron Man III
Thor
The Incredible Hulk
Thor The Dark World

[Genki]

Thanks @Sakura for listing everything out for easy copy/paste. Here's mine.

 

Iron Man

Guardians Of The Galaxy

The Avengers

Agent Carter

Captain America: The Winter Soldier

Iron Man II
Iron Man III

Thor
Agent Carter's Adventures with Captain America: The First Avenger (heh!)

Thor The Dark World

Daredevil

Avengers Age Of Ultron
Agents of SHIELD
The Incredible Hulk (Not even sure I've seen it all)
 

[nksarmi]

I haven't seen them all, but I think at this point, Captain America, Winter Soldier is my favorite.  I really love the trio of Falcon, Cap, and Black Widow.

[statsgirl]

Leaked memo:  what Marvel's CEO really thinks about female superhero movies:

 

Michael,

    As we discussed on the phone, below are just a few examples. There are more.

    Thanks,

    Ike

    1. Electra (Marvel) – Very bad idea and the end result was very, very bad. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=elektra.htm

    2. Catwoman (WB/DC) - Catwoman was one of the most important female character within the Batmanfranchise. This film was a disaster. http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=catwoman.htm

    3. Supergirl – (DC) Supergirl was one of the most important female super hero in Superman franchise. This Movie came out in 1984 and did $14 million total domestic with opening weekend of $5.5 million. Again, another disaster.

    Best,
    Ike

From the article:

 

Again, we don't know the context, but it would appear that Perlmutter was having some kind of high-level discussion with Lynton about woman-led superhero movies. Sony owns the movie rights for Spider-Man and all Spider-Man-related Marvel characters, but Sony and Marvel Studios have had a decent creative relationship in recent years — so, presumably, Perlmutter was advising Lynton to be careful about crafting a superhero flick starring a woman.

[manbearpig]

I mean, all of those movies did tank. At the same time though, you only have to look at The Hunger Games or Lucy or Divergent or the Resident Evil series to see that action-heavy movies with female leads can succeed. Here's hoping Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel both make a ton of money and lead to more big budget movies with female leads.

[nksarmi]

I think that memo is VERY unfair. Electra is NOT a major Marvel female character as far as I'm concerned.  Halley Barry's Catwoman wasn't Bruce Wayne's Catwoman so the failure isn't surprising at all.  And Supergirl's movie doesn't begin to live up to Supergirl's actually story in my opinion.  Try doing a female superhero story that is well recognized and also written with the awesomeness of her comic book story and see how THAT does!

 

I really, truly hope Wonder Woman does well enough to open the genre for female superhero characters.  I might go see it three times no matter how bad it is just to do my part to amp up the box office dollars :).  That movie needs to succeed.  I don't think it needs to do the kind of dollars the male-led movies do, but it needs to hit nine figures.

I mean, all of those movies did tank. At the same time though, you only have to look at The Hunger Games or Lucy or Divergent or the Resident Evil series to see that action-heavy movies with female leads can succeed. Here's hoping Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel both make a ton of money and lead to more big budget movies with female leads.

And I hated Lucy - but yea Hunger Games and Divergent should be enough to show them it can work.

 

Heck, I'd be happy with female/male buddy movies with or without a romantic tie.  I'm very much in favor of a Hulk/She-Hulk movie at this point.

[statsgirl]

The article goes on

 

(though, of course, there are plenty of male-led superhero movies that have been catastrophes, as well ... I'm looking at you, Green Lantern and Superman IV: The Quest for Peace).

It's established in research that boy will only go to movies/TV about boys whereas girls will go to movies about girls and about boys which is another reason why we get male-centric movies and TV unless they've soap operas or romcom.

 

I think the best solution is to have more female characters on teams with strong male figures like Agents of SHIELD rather than situations like Natasha being the only female member of the Avengers A Team.  Agent Carter did well but that was one woman supported by five male characters, which seems to be the default when giving a minority character status.  (I've counted four TV shows now where the police captain is a minority woman, as if that excuses not having women on the teams themselves..

 

I want Wonder Woman to do well, but I don't want it to be because she's supported by a host of men.

[SleepDeprived]

Wow. How does The Flash make me believe in and kinda root for a telepathic and telekinetic CW-budget-CGIed gorilla as a menacing supervillain-to-be yet Arrow can't make me muster one single damn about Ra's al Ghul and his, thus far, nonsensical, convoluted Heir-wrangling/brainwashing/city-obliterating tactics? Like, Grodd makes me intrigued about how much terror he can raise in Central City and against Barry/the STAR Labs team. Meanwhile, the only thing a centuries-old Ra's al Ghul, who commands the freaking League of Assassins, has made me wary of is that I'll develop exopthalmia thanks to the strain in my eye muscles everytime I roll my eyes from the tomfoolery they engage in because of such and such "custom," "prophecy," or "tradition."

 

Maybe Arrow should've thought about CGI-ing Ra's al Ghul. I might've gotten a little more gravitas and ominousness from the dude then that could've been enough to make his brand of crazy somewhat believable or intriguing.

[BkWurm1]

Bad movies are going to do badly at the box office.  Both Elektra and Catwoman came with incredibly bad premises (Electra is dead but not dead but there to protect and bond with a little girl?  Not the Catwoma, just a Catwoman?) and the entire franchise around Superman had fallen apart by 1984 when Supergirl rolled around.   The problem isn't a female hero, it's bad scripts revolving around bad ideas. 

 

And this thing about them freaking out that they won't be able to get boys to go see it...how about for once not worrying about the demographic that will be spending the money and concentrate on the fact that people will spend money.  If it's a good movie people will go see it no matter what gender the lead falls to and as long as it's not a weepfest about Supergirl bonding with her fellow female heroes whiles she's dying of Kryptonite exposure, then guys are going to show up for the action.  No one ever seemed to question Ripley in all the Alien movies. 

[foreverevolving]

I mean, all of those movies did tank. At the same time though, you only have to look at The Hunger Games or Lucy or Divergent or the Resident Evil series to see that action-heavy movies with female leads can succeed. Here's hoping Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel both make a ton of money and lead to more big budget movies with female leads.

 

You forgot the Lara Croft movies, which are not amazing (though in comparison to some others they're a master art) they both made profit in the box office (in total when combining both domestic and international)

[SonofaBiscuit]

The article goes on

(though, of course, there are plenty of male-led superhero movies that have been catastrophes, as well ... I'm looking at you, Green Lantern and Superman IV: The Quest for Peace).

 

 

 

 

And you know who was responsible for that Green Lantern catastrophe?  Guggenheim and Berlanti were two of the people involved in that apparent mess, haha.

[KirkB]

As far as I'm concerned, first and foremost a movie has to be well written and well directed to be any good. The genre of the film and the gender of the lead or leads are secondary, at best. Romantic comedy, serious drama, superhero, it has to be done well to work. It doesn't matter if it stars the best actor or actress in the history of the world, if they're working with a poorly crafted script or being led by an incompetent buffoon the film is going to tank. 

Edited May 6, 2015 by KirkB

[tv echo]

Sorry, but that was the first Flash episode that I didn't like.  I guess the telepathic gorilla was just one fantastical step too far for me... (eye roll)  It's clear, though, which show in the Flarrow universe is getting the bulk of the special effects budget.

[SonofaBiscuit]

I think that I've given up on The Flash.  Last week's episode is still sitting unwatched on my DVR.  I don't ship WestAllen (or Barry with anyone, actually), I think that they outed Wells too quickly, I'm afraid of what the show is going to do to nice people like Eddie, Cisco, and Caitlyn (are some of them going to turn into villains??), and it feels too much like Smallville at times (and I DO NOT need to go down that road again).  I don't even think I will watch the crossover stuff next week because I figure that someone on here can fill us in on whatever we've missed.

[Starfish35]

I actually really enjoyed last night's episode, and I was highly skeptical about the telepathic gorilla going in. But I thought they did it well. I actually felt a little sorry for Grodd, being experimented on like he was.

I also really liked how they handled Iris finding out. She handled it very well I thought, and I'm so relieved she finally knows. It's been the only major issue I've had with the show over the last few weeks.

All Star Teamup has been the worst Flash episode so far for me. There was so much I disliked about that episode. Ugh.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Starfish35

[dtissagirl]

Speaking of Smallville, I didn't hear a single word Barry and Iris said in that rooftop scene because the Smallville Watchtower was just hanging out there in the background, and I was basically being a fool and waving at Chloe. And then GRODD CLIMBED THE WATCHTOWER AND I WAS WORRIED ABOUT CHLOE. SOMEBODY SAAAAAVE CHLOE.

Seriously, don't do that, superhero television shot in Vancouver. It's legit super distracting.

Edited May 6, 2015 by dancingnancy

[jay741982]

I think that I've given up on The Flash.  Last week's episode is still sitting unwatched on my DVR.  I don't ship WestAllen (or Barry with anyone, actually), I think that they outed Wells too quickly, I'm afraid of what the show is going to do to nice people like Eddie, Cisco, and Caitlyn (are some of them going to turn into villains??), and it feels too much like Smallville at times (and I DO NOT need to go down that road again).  I don't even think I will watch the crossover stuff next week because I figure that someone on here can fill us in on whatever we've missed.

In the Comics Eddie is one of the Reverse Flashes and Catilin becomes Killer Frost both Vilians and Cisco becomes Vibe a Hero

[Starfish35]

Supergirl officially picked up by CBS

http://tvline.com/2015/05/06/supergirl-series-cbs-season-1/

ETA: iZombie renewed for season two.

http://tvline.com/2015/05/06/izombie-renewed-season-2-cw/

Edited May 6, 2015 by Starfish35

[FurryFury]

I think that I've given up on The Flash.  Last week's episode is still sitting unwatched on my DVR.  I don't ship WestAllen (or Barry with anyone, actually), I think that they outed Wells too quickly, I'm afraid of what the show is going to do to nice people like Eddie, Cisco, and Caitlyn (are some of them going to turn into villains??), and it feels too much like Smallville at times (and I DO NOT need to go down that road again).  I don't even think I will watch the crossover stuff next week because I figure that someone on here can fill us in on whatever we've missed.

You didn't lose much, it was all West Allen, all the time. And Iris forgave Joe and Barry like it was nothing, while Eddie seems to be heading into Villainsville simply because he knows Iris is going to end up with Barry.

I think I hate this show, it could be fun but the predictability and the forced West Allen romance killed it for me.

[Sakura12]

People are always saying how great the Flash is, but I find Agents of Shield much more interesting. It has better storylines and I find all the characters somewhat interesting and/or entertaining. I can't wait to find out how the season ends on that show, while with The Flash I don't really care how it ends or what happens to the characters. 

[Delphi]

I actually just started watching the Flash, I liked the last few episodes. It's a bit happier than Arrow abd I appreciate that.

I've only seen the crossovers and the last two. I have no interest in playing catch up.

I skip all the Barry and iris drama. And it's fun. I'll probably watch season 2 if Wells stays on the show.

[tessaray]

People are always saying how great the Flash is, but I find Agents of Shield much more interesting. It has better storylines and I find all the characters somewhat interesting and/or entertaining. I can't wait to find out how the season ends on that show, while with The Flash I don't really care how it ends or what happens to the characters. 

 

I don't watch Flash live and sometimes they stack up on the dvr a little, but once I'm actually watching I enjoy it.  It's probably because I have no comics background and like most of the actors.  I care about what happens with Cisco, Caitlyn, Joe - maybe more than Barry or Iris even.  (And I wish there was a way to keep TC.)

 

Ironically, AoS fall flat for me, even though I rarely miss it.  I do love bits of it but not sure why it doesn't work as a whole.  Maybe it's because Fitz is the only character I still like and find interesting.  Maybe, like Arrow, we never get enough of the original team.  Or because anytime we get interesting new characters, they get killed off or wasted.  It's hard to get invested in any of them.  (IMO, YMMV...)  I do think that from a production standpoint, it's a better show.

[Sakura12]

Compared to the giant black hole of suck that Arrow is lately. The Flash is a ton more fun. Can you imagine Team Arrow dealing with a telepathic gorilla? 

[slayer2]

From last page re: Peyton List...I never saw Tomorrow People but on Mad Men she was able to portray a character that really grew over the course of that show, from spoiled brat that we hated to someone that evoked sympathy and in her last appearance was a complete 180 from her first appearance.

I don't mind Peyton at all, it was Cara I couldn't be bothered with and frankly the writing did her no favours, chasing after a 17yrold.

I like her with Wentworth now on the Flash, they seem to have a good sibling chemistry and I liked her as Lois Lane's sister on Smallville as well.

[FurryFury]

You know, I'd prefer her over Heatwave. Although that's mostly a comment on how useless and devoid of personality that character is. I literally cannot remember what exactly he has done on the show, while with Lisa, at least there was the Cisco abduction.

 

Can you imagine Team Arrow dealing with a telepathic gorilla?

 

I don't know, I think a telepathic gorilla should have been more fun than it turned out to be. I do give points for the banana trick, though.

[thuganomics85]

 

Can you imagine Team Arrow dealing with a telepathic gorilla?

I could actually see early season Team Arrow having fun with it.  Diggle would have been all "Let me get this straight, guys!  We're dealing with a gorilla?  A gorilla that can read minds?  And no one else finds this messed up?" about it.  Felicity will be making geeky references (hopefully, won't got overboard like Cisco did), and maybe even find a way to work in accidental double-entendre or two ("When you see him, just offer him your banana, Oli... I mean, the banana you are holding!  Not your... going to just shut up now, sorry!)  Even Oliver would have an amusing "Can't believe I'm dealing with this shit!" response to this.

 

Now?  They would find a way to make it humorless, dour, and depressing.  Oliver would find a way to believe that it means he and Felicity can't be together (Grodd clearly is a symbol that following your animalistic instincts is wrong!  No sex for you!), Grodd would mind-control Baby Sara and Diggle would blame it on Oliver, Laurel would try to single-handily take on Grodd (in honor of Sara, of course) and get her leg broken, and Felicity would no doubt do her cry-voice.  Meanwhile, Quentin will obviously think that Grodd was created by Oliver somehow, and start another manhunt for Team Arrow.  Fun!

Edited May 7, 2015 by thuganomics85

[wingster55]

I don't know, I think a telepathic gorilla should have been more fun than it turned out to be.

 

I don't see how it would be fun. Grodd can mess you up.

[FurryFury]

It's a gorilla. It SHOULD be fun. 

[Danny Franks]

I think that I've given up on The Flash.  Last week's episode is still sitting unwatched on my DVR.  I don't ship WestAllen (or Barry with anyone, actually), I think that they outed Wells too quickly, I'm afraid of what the show is going to do to nice people like Eddie, Cisco, and Caitlyn (are some of them going to turn into villains??), and it feels too much like Smallville at times (and I DO NOT need to go down that road again).  I don't even think I will watch the crossover stuff next week because I figure that someone on here can fill us in on whatever we've missed.

 

Yeah, I've said before that The Flash is just forgettable, mindless TV, and I think that's the main problem with it. There's nothing particularly bad about it (other than the creepy pseudo-incest 'ship), but nothing memorable or special or that I look forward to tuning in to. I think I've missed about half the episodes, including the last four or five, and haven't felt like I'm missing out on anything.

 

Bad movies are going to do badly at the box office.  Both Elektra and Catwoman came with incredibly bad premises (Electra is dead but not dead but there to protect and bond with a little girl?  Not the Catwoma, just a Catwoman?) and the entire franchise around Superman had fallen apart by 1984 when Supergirl rolled around.   The problem isn't a female hero, it's bad scripts revolving around bad ideas.

 

 

 

Elektra was a bad spinoff of a bad Daredevil movie, with an actress who wasn't exactly proven box office gold (though I do like Jennifer Garner). No one in their right mind could have thought that would work. And Catwoman? Well, I always just assumed people were smoking crack when they came up with that version of the character. Fucking Barb Wire had more feminist credibility.

 

Now, making good movies is no guarantee that you'll find a big audience. Pacific Rim and Dredd were two of the best scifi movies of the last few years, in my view, but both performed well below expectations at the box office. But you give yourself a better chance if you make a better movie. Unless you're Michael Bay, in which case you're just empathically tapped in to the wavelength of people who want nothing more than loud noises, bright colours and tanned female midriffs from a movie.

[FurryFury]

Now, making good movies is no guarantee that you'll find a big audience. Pacific Rim and Dredd were two of the best scifi movies of the last few years, in my view,

 

With you on that. At least Pacific Rim got a big audience outside of the US, so there's that. I really can't understand why more Americans didn't watch it. With Dredd, at least it's more understandable, it was specifically low-key, which could have turned people off.

[calliope1975]

Agent Carter gets a season 2! 

 

Marvel has a lot of lady problems, namely, the lack of them, but I thought AC was one thing they got very right. I look forward to more Peggy Carter and Haley Atwell.

[NumberCruncher]

Agent Carter gets a season 2! 

 

Marvel has a lot of lady problems, namely, the lack of them, but I thought AC was one thing they got very right. I look forward to more Peggy Carter and Haley Atwell.

I'm so happy right now!!!

[Sakura12]

In the TV verse Marvel is not suffering from a lack of women, they have Peggy Carter, Melinda May, Bobbi Morse, Skye, Jemma Simmons, Claire Temple and Karen Page. Soon to add Jessica Jones. 

[Starfish35]

Looks like the S.H.I.E.L.D. spinoff isn't happening.

http://deadline.com/2015/05/marvel-agents-of-shield-spinoff-dead-abc-1201422761/

[Sakura12]

They don't really need a spin off, I'd rather Bobbi and Hunter stay on SHIELD. 

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, as long as this means Bobbi (and Hunter, i guess) is sticking around on SHIELD, then I'm fine with the spin-off doesn't happen.  But, seriously: Bobbi better not go anywhere.  Her addition to the cast was very welcoming.

 

I'm obviously thrilled the most for Agent Carter getting a second season, but glad for Shield too, since I did think it improved after the admittedly spotty first season. Carter though is still the best.  Can't wait for more Peggy!  And, hopefully, Jarvis will be returning as well.

[FurryFury]

Agent Carter renewal has made my day (after waking up early because a nearby school has VERY LOUD performances of old songs in honor of Victory Day, god that's annoying).

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a spinoff about Bobbi, I think she could carry it, but Hunter being on it didn't exactly inspire me. So, I don't mind it not being picked up. I just hope they won't get rid of Mac on AoS, I like him more and more with each episode.

Edited May 8, 2015 by FurryFury

[Nibbio]

Agent Carter!!!

[FurryFury]

It's like this forum's favorite show! So much positivity about its renewal everywhere!

[tv echo]

Interesting article...

 

Summer Superhero Blockbusters Expose Comic Book TV's Weakness
by Michael O'Connell, Lesley Goldberg 5/8/2015 5:00am PDT
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/summer-superhero-blockbusters-expose-comic-794163

 

[Sakura12]

: "ABC wants to bring in men without alienating the women who contributed to their growth. This kind of program, especially something female-fronted, has the opportunity to do that. They see room for another swing to get it right and sustain some success."

 

That's the opposite thinking of the CW it seems. They are more interested in bringing in the male demo without caring too much about the female demo that has been watching their shows since the beginning. 

 

Gotham should never be on the top of any list. 

Edited May 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[FurryFury]

I'm sure Gotham will crash and burn in season 2. It managed to get to AoS current numbers in just 1 season.

 

As for The CW, apparently, they think that female demo will be satisfied by another show that's inevitably going to be ruined by Julie Plec. (I hear the original Belgian (?) version is pretty good)

Edited May 8, 2015 by FurryFury

[NumberCruncher]

I'm sad that Constantine didn't get renewed--especially when it got better and better with each episode. I think NBC also sticking it so late on Friday night didn't do it any favors. :(

Edited May 9, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[BkWurm1]

With you on that. At least Pacific Rim got a big audience outside of the US, so there's that. I really can't understand why more Americans didn't watch it. With Dredd, at least it's more understandable, it was specifically low-key, which could have turned people off.

I did eventually watch Pacific Rim and it wasn't terrible but my first impression of it was some weird combo rip off of Godzilla and the old Japanese Anime series Robotec.  In the end I enjoyed the original backstory and even the main pairing but I get why there wasn't  lot of excitement about it.  

[FurryFury]

Just a nitpick, the anime is Macross, Robotech is the bastardized US version. I've seen quite a few Humongous Mecha anime shows, so I was kinda familiar with the genre (not a huge fan, however), but I really didn't feel like it was required to enjoy the movie. I've thought both visuals and the story were awesome, and a lot of my friends in my country seemed to love it as well. 

[tv echo]

fivecentsless asked:

Here's a question you probably can't or won't answer, but I'd still like to ask. Do you consider Vixen to be the third part of this CW Trinity, alongside Arrow and Flash, or would you give that title to someone else, say, Hawkgirl?

Vixen will be set in our little universe that we’re creating.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited May 9, 2015 by tv echo

[tv echo]

I don't know much about Kate Spencer/Manhunter (other than what's been posted in this forum, usually in connection with previous Laurel speculation), so I found this article interesting...

 

How the CW Dropped the Ball with Kate Spencer
Mweyer  5/08/15 4:12pm
http://observationdeck.io9.com/how-the-cw-dropped-the-ball-with-kate-spencer-1703190853

Edited May 9, 2015 by tv echo