S04.E07: Therefore I Am

[SevenStars]

5 minutes ago, Chyromaniac said:

They have an entire secret lair, a flying brain interface chair that shoots lasers, a samurai themed android... Unless CCU has an otherworldly tenure program, they aren’t making all that on two professorship salaries.  They must have a nearly infinite source of income from somewhere- it doesn’t particularly bother me that the show hasn’t explained where they get their money.

As for the mild-mannered front, maybe it’s all part of their plan- or maybe gaslighting Barry is just for fun. Or, it’s possible that is how they honestly want to live. Not every super-villain should need to rule the world- frankly, I don’t believe the smartest man on the planet would even want to. In any case, I don’t think we’ll know until we get a better idea of what DeVoe’s endgame actually will be.

I think them keep those teaching jobs and leaving within their means in the public eye is very smart. They probably have millions/billions in an off-shore account. 

[Last Time Lord]

Got caught up on the ol’ DVR backlog. 

Thinker may be the most compelling antagonist the show has had so far. 

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

They have an entire secret lair, a flying brain interface chair that shoots lasers, a samurai themed android... Unless CCU has an otherworldly tenure program, they aren’t making all that on two professorship salaries

That have/made all that stuff relatively recently - probably within the last year.  Them getting the money they needed to do all the stuff the did isn't a problem for me.  They can easily and likely legally get whatever they need.  Prior to that they seemed to be living the same fairly modest lives they were before.  I mean, why wasn't Devoe winning the Nobel Prize for damn near every category for the prior three years or so?

[Jack Kerouac]

On 11/22/2017 at 1:14 AM, BkWurm1 said:

So I assume his big plan is to take over Barry's body since his body can tap the power of the speed force.  

That's my thought too. Use the Speed Force as a power source and he can be even more smarty-smart!

[wilnil]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

I mean, why wasn't Devoe winning the Nobel Prize for damn near every category for the prior three years or so?

If DeVoe's game plan for surviving is (as some are speculating) stealing someone's body, or anything else illegal, he probably wants to keep as low a profile as possible.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, wilnil said:

If DeVoe's game plan for surviving is (as some are speculating) stealing someone's body, or anything else illegal, he probably wants to keep as low a profile as possible.

Now, sure, but it seemed to take a while for the paralysis and other symptoms to manifest.  So, why not use his newfound intellect to pursue money, power, fame or revenge (perhaps on those students who never bothered to listen as he tried to teach them?  Why not be the real version of what Eobard Thawne made himself into in the "Doomworld" version of Legends of Tomorrow?  I think part of the reason for that is that Clifford DeVoe is not a traditional super villain.  He doesn't have the neediness, greed and resentment that it takes to be one.  Even now he doesn't really seem to want to simply save himself.  He's talking about saving the world (as he sees it).  So, he's not going to be "evil" and predictable.  He's going to be as brave and selfless in his own way as any of the heroes on Team Flash.  And that makes him much more dangerous than other villains.

Edited November 24, 2017 by johntfs

[Maverick]

1 hour ago, wilnil said:

If DeVoe's game plan for surviving is (as some are speculating) stealing someone's body, or anything else illegal, he probably wants to keep as low a profile as possible.

If they go with stealing a plot from and old Wonder Woman episode (among many others) it'll be really disappointing.  But I don't see how his ultimate plan can be anything but disappointing.  If Devoe truly knows all that is knowable and can predict every move anyone will make, then there's no need for these long, drawn out plans.   If he wanted Flash, he could easily devise a trap to capture him  Hell, since they're saying he knew/controlled where Flash came out of the Speed Force he could have taken him right then.   I'm enjoying the season overall but I think the ride is going to be more fun than the destination.   

Did Devoe say 3,200 metas were created in the original explosion?   

[legaleagle53]

11 minutes ago, Maverick said:

Did Devoe say 3,200 metas were created in the original explosion?   

I thought it was only 2,600 who had the meta-gene that was affected by the explosion.

[KirkB]

2 hours ago, Maverick said:

If Devoe truly knows all that is knowable and can predict every move anyone will make, then there's no need for these long, drawn out plans.   If he wanted Flash, he could easily devise a trap to capture him  Hell, since they're saying he knew/controlled where Flash came out of the Speed Force he could have taken him right then.   I'm enjoying the season overall but I think the ride is going to be more fun than the destination.   

That's why I doubt his intentions are as simple as "get the Flash's body." He's been active for three years, plenty of time to calculate where Barry is going to be and let him run headlong into a net or knockout gas or whatever if he just wants the Flash. It also doesn't make sense for him to set up a bus full of people to turn into metas at the same time as Barry comes out of the speed force, not to mention personally going after one of them, if he just wants Barry. Though right now I have no good, or even bad, guess as to what his true plan is. As for the bolded part, that's where I am. I'm going to try and enjoy the ride and not worry about where we end up.

[mac123x]

Yay for budget-saving second unit episodes!  I liked how we got the villains(?) backstory without it being a villain monologue.  I really like that the ominous floaty chair is really just a life-support device, and not the source of any of the Thinker's power. 

[CletusMusashi]

I'm going to say it. And I know I'm going to jinx us by saying it, but I'm saying it anyway. This season has been consistantly enjoyable.

But of course all that can change, especially now that Wally's back.

A few minor thoughts about the ep:

Where the hell is Barry's Flash suit? Did all this take place on laundry day?

Why is Iris becoming the undisputed commander of Team Flash? I mean, I'm all for giving her more to do, but... "well, everyone else is actually really good at something, so you can be our boss..." is a thing?

Devoe looks like an older, crankier version of Todd Jacobson from "Community."

and, finally,

Thank god he just admitted that he knew who Barry was. Oh, tactically it was still a bad move. I mean, there's no way he can plan for every possibility. Even if he could predict almost everything in this universe. how can he predict what guest heroes are going to show up from elsewhere? But, still, he had to do it. Just for our own peace of mind. Otherwise we'd go insane wondering how he could deduce the identity of Jack the Ripper but not The Flash.

[Trini]

Re-watch thoughts:

The music theme they have for DeVoe is fittingly, and subtly creepy.

Besides being the Flash, Barry is also supposed to be a good CSI, so the mistakes he made in investigating DeVoe were especially cringey.

The team had a point that they couldn’t find any dirt on DeVoe - even though the Wellses narrowed it down to him - but Barry also had a point that he could be hiding something, and that they were warned beforehand. It would have been nice if there was one other person who was on his side; there was only so much narrative tension when we, the audience, already know Barry is right about him.

Eobard/Wells continues to be the best version of Wells. It interesting how Tom C. is able to easily slip back into that persona, while Harry is uneven. Also it’s funny to me that apparently in the future there a Flash Villains fan club!

Nitpick: Um — so now the particle accelerator explosion happened in January?? It had been in December before; essentially the same time as when the Arrow episodes that introduced Barry aired.

Nice WestAllen loft scene. They've been short on those lately.

I don’t expect any significant revelations about DeVoe’s plan until much later in the season, but they gave a small clue that he wants to “change how people think.”

The fact that DeVoe is dying is an interesting twist. I have a feeling that it will be more of the team stopping DeVoe’s Plan and its effects than stopping DeVoe directly. Plus, considering how often the show has dumbed down the characters for plot, it’s hard for me to picture the team outthinking him.

I hope that they are not actually making The Thinker omniscient. Like a god. Because there’s only so much I can suspend my disbelief. I get that he would be able to calculate many things and possibilities, and gather all sorts of knowledge, but he can’t (shouldn’t) actually know everything. That would be too powerful.

 

On 11/22/2017 at 11:53 PM, RandomWatcher said:

Did Wally say he fought Starro?

They didn't say "Starro", but Wally mentioned a starfish from outer space.
 

3 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

... Where the hell is Barry's Flash suit? Did all this take place on laundry day?

I didn't notice when I first watched, but yeah, now we have two episodes without the suit.
 

Quote

... Why is Iris becoming the undisputed commander of Team Flash? I mean, I'm all for giving her more to do, but... "well, everyone else is actually really good at something, so you can be our boss..." is a thing?

They've shown her as leader with the team before this season, so it's not completely new. I'd much rather her be at CC Picture News while also doing investigating for Team Flash, but they want to center everything/everyone at STAR Labs, so here we are.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Trini

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Why is Iris becoming the undisputed commander of Team Flash? I mean, I'm all for giving her more to do, but... "well, everyone else is actually really good at something, so you can be our boss..." is a thing?

Because she'd already stepped up to fill that role when Barry left to go into the speed force. Somebody had to take charge in his absence (especially since the team had no way of knowing that he'd eventually return), so she took over as team leader, and everyone is so used to following her now that even though Barry's back, she's still the team leader out of habit -- and Barry really doesn't even seem to mind.

[Lady Calypso]

8 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Why is Iris becoming the undisputed commander of Team Flash? I mean, I'm all for giving her more to do, but... "well, everyone else is actually really good at something, so you can be our boss..." is a thing?

Part of it is because they finally realized how little they've given Iris to do, especially in terms of Team Flash. The other part of it is that they can't seem to also allow her to be a journalist this season. They haven't shown her at her job in a long time, and they have also stopped referencing it too, making it seem like she's just part of Team Flash full time. It's better than what she was basically given the last couple of seasons since finding out about Team Flash, which was nothing. 

Plus, Iris seems to be fairly good at taking charge. She needed to while Barry was away, and he seems quite content with letting her continue to make the decisions for the team. I just find it nice that they've finally realizing the mistakes they made with Iris, even if it's late and it's also why I understand people questioning Iris' role now. Maybe if the show did a better job at treating Iris better than just Barry's best friend/girlfriend or Joe's daughter or Wally's sister or Eddie's fiancee, then maybe it wouldn't feel so odd to have her in a leadership role now.

...as you can tell, I am still quite bitter with the Iris characterization on this show.

[CletusMusashi]

Well, at least they didn't make her another speedster.

[DearEvette]

On 11/21/2017 at 10:34 PM, phoenics said:

I really liked DeVoe's origin story - and I even understood his frustration about teaching minds that just weren't trying to receive his knowledge.  I don't think that's a good reason to do whatever he's planning to do, but I found him sympathetic at first - he thinks he's doing good - or will. 

 

On 11/22/2017 at 1:06 AM, Trini said:

So DeVoe had a plan to “enlighten the world” before the dark matter explosion. And Marlize (yay! a name!) and Clifford are a supervillain power couple? I dig it. I really like that we got backstory for the big bad sooner rather than later. And in general that the villain has a face and personality, and isn’t just a psycho in a mask. Big improvement from previous villains — don’t mess this up, show.

With DeVoe, I am tentatively hoping that the show is finally embracing the narrative rule that makes for a good villain, to wit, "the villain of the story, in order to be a good villain, must believe himself to be the hero, not the villain at all." In fact the villain may have the exact same goal as the hero, e.g. "world peace" but his methods may be more ruthless and despotic. He's more likely not to care about collateral damage and is willing to sacrifice anything to get to his goal.  He doesn't even have to be inherently evil with some innate desire to kill and rule, he just sees that getting from point A to point B is the most important thing and doesn't have time to worry about feelings .  Also, in a way he may actually see Barry & Team Flash as the bad guys, i.e. they are the ones that are impeding the worthy end goal & are the cause of the problem. I am feeling that DeVoe may actually be something like this. 

7 hours ago, Trini said:

I hope that they are not actually making The Thinker omniscient. Like a god. Because there’s only so much I can suspend my disbelief. I get that he would be able to calculate many things and possibilities, and gather all sorts of knowledge, but he can’t (shouldn’t) actually know everything. That would be too powerful.

I am wondering if this is how is going to be defeated.  You can't predict everything.  There is an element of unpredictability and chaos in every system.  And people don't always act the way you expect them to even if you have observed them for years.

 

On 11/22/2017 at 1:14 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Pet Peeve five.  Why does the wife slick back her hair when she is in EVOL mode?  I don't understand the fashion choice.

This always cracks me up about The Flash.  Evil people have edgy hair and clothes, like they just got invited to a BDSM party.  And they drawl while speaking like being evil has made them remarkably bored.

 

10 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Why is Iris becoming the undisputed commander of Team Flash? I mean, I'm all for giving her more to do, but... "well, everyone else is actually really good at something, so you can be our boss..." is a thing?

In a weird way it makes sense.  Cailtyn was gone.  There was no Harry.  Cisco isn't leadership material he is strictly scientific.   Joe already has a day job.  Wally had to be the step-in speedster.  Even when Barry was there he wasn't really the leader since he had to be out in the field.  Iris is smart, she's a cop's daughter and there has been hints that Joe has given her some training.  I could see her stepping in to sorta keep Barry's spirit alive in a way even when she thought he was gone for good.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

Well, at least they didn't make her another speedster.

Wait for it....

Give the show enough seasons, and it's going to happen. Probably only for an episode, or with a doppelganger, but it's going to happen. (Full disclosure: I'd love to see Iris with powers.)

[Trini]

One more thing: Was it just me, or was Keiynan's Australian accent coming through in his scene? (He had been away for a while...)

[Richness]

As much as I think DeVoe/Thinker is a great villain, and as much as I like the relationship he was with his wife, I really can't stand her voice. The nasal quality makes it difficult to hear what she's saying, especially when in evil mode or in their villain lair.

 

Also found Barry to be annoying and stupid in this episode. If you're not going to wear a mask, at lease motion blur your face when you break into someone's home. His single-minded obsession about DeVoe may have been correct, but he took it way to far. At least when he created Flashpoint to save his mother, I could empathize and forgive him for that.

 

And what's with the Marvel universe references? Spidey-Sense is the second Marvel reference we've had this season, though I don't recall the first one (and was it on a difference CW DC show?). It yanks me out of the show when it happens.

 

Still liking this season a lot better than the last two though.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Richness said:

And what's with the Marvel universe references? Spidey-Sense is the second Marvel reference we've had this season, though I don't recall the first one (and was it on a difference CW DC show?). It yanks me out of the show when it happens.

Why?  If I tell you I'm concerned about Joe West and my "Spider Sense" in tingling when it comes to him surviving the season, does that yank you out of reality?  I have no problem with the idea that Spider Man is a fictional comic book and movie character in the Flarrow TV Universes (including Supergirl's).  It's something Cisco, ubernerd that he is, would say.  It's not like he talked about teaming up with Spider Man in reality.  Also, namechecking Marvel characters lets the show-runners emphasize that while those guys are fiction, the people on The Flash are "real."

[tessaray]

I was pretty impressed with the episode in general, except for the team doing one pass each (no dark matter, no vibe info, etc.) and giving up to make Barry look obsessed.  And I kind of loved the DeVoes as the super villain, loving couple with a great marriage. 

Just idle speculation (with absolutely no comics/spoiler knowledge) but I could see the wife being the big bad of a future season, if the guy's ALS wins in the end.  She's smart enough to enact real revenge on Team Flash and her husband is her whole world. 

[sarthaz]

Even by Flash standards, this episode was exceptionally stupid. Can’t figure which is worse: Team Flash suddenly ganging up to ignore Barry’s superhero instincts or Barry’s nonsensical b&e. At least Iris was smoking hot.

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

Iris was smoking hot.

Amen, hallelujah.

[Cthulhudrew]

On 11/21/2017 at 10:06 PM, Trini said:

“If the Council is right, that means DeVoe arranged for me to come out of the speed force exactly where he wanted” — aaarrghh! No it doesn’t!! What information are they using to reach these conclusions?? It definitely not anything they’ve shared with the audience. Sorry I keep harping on this, but the show keeps going from A to C, and I need that in between step.

I couldn't agree more. The first thing that came to my mind was, "Well, no, Barry- he could have just predicted where you were going to come out of the speed force, and arranged for the other players to be in place accordingly."
 

[AudienceofOne]

On ‎22‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:12 PM, kirinan said:

That was...boring. While I usually watch shows for the characters, I don't care at all about DeVoe's origin story. I would have been fine with five minutes about it, tops. If the majority of this season is going to be about him, I foresee a lot of fast-forwarding through the DVR.

 This.

I fast-forwarded through a lot of this especially every conversation where Iris was like, "This is about the WEDDING!" Ergh. Just, ergh.

On ‎22‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:20 PM, Whodunnit said:

I just don't understand why after spending four years trusting in Barry's instincts, that team Flash would suddenly doubt him to the degree that they do in this episode. Granted, later on Barry acted like an idiot by not (at least) wearing a mask when he broke into the house.

And this. And Double ergh

On ‎22‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 2:31 PM, Whodunnit said:

So what do you suppose are the ingredients in the macaroni of trustworthiness and innocence?

Barry: This is the DeVoe we're looking for

Team Flash: But his wife cooks him pasta!

On ‎22‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 3:12 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Tonight in "Everyone's kind of been hit with the stupid stick..."

I don't know what was worse. Every bizarrely overwrought conversation he had with Iris or him doing a B&E out of costume or nobody searching their place for bugs even after Barry found a bug in the lab

On ‎22‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 4:40 PM, Rachel RSL said:

Also, all this angst about how they're going to defeat the guy with the superbrain. Uh, he's in a wheelchair and you have two speedsters! (Oh, hey Wally. Were you even gone? He's like one of those kids who runs away then gets to the corner of their street, thinks "I'm hungry" and goes home for a peanut butter sandwich.) Couldn't they just superspeed up to him, grab him, and superspeed him back to the prison at wherever it is they keep all the metas? The whole thing would take seconds.

I guess this is about the proof thing?? All they know for sure at the moment is that he is the DeVoe they're looking for.

But if DeVoe is a super genius then surely he should know that the only way he can out-think Team Flash is if they don't know who he is? So why reveal himself now? Dis maka no sensa. As you said, all they have to do is grab him and lock him up. Right now he's laughing maniacally at a giant chess board going, "I knew you wouldn't just throw me in prison mwahahaha".

On ‎23‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:08 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Well, I guess I’ll be the lone dissenter and say I don’t give any fucks about Devoe or his wife or their back story. And I thought he had ALS and him being struck by dark matter extended his life, but then his brain power or whatever was draining his body? I wasn’t really paying attention. 

And da fuck? Even after everyone believed Barry about Thinker, they didn’t sweep the lab for bugs? Because they’re clearly still under surveillance. And that last scene with exposing his brain freaked and grossed me out.

BORED. The annoying thing is - on paper this should be great. The ALS and the husband and wife team and a villain who's trying to save the world but is actually harming people. But in execution it's just terrible.

On ‎25‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 5:03 PM, sarthaz said:

Even by Flash standards, this episode was exceptionally stupid. Can’t figure which is worse: Team Flash suddenly ganging up to ignore Barry’s superhero instincts or Barry’s nonsensical b&e.

This. Oh, how about nobody thinking it was suspicious that he filed a complaint against Barry when all Barry did was question him once and then go to his lecture.

This episode truly sucked.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

"My name is Barry Allen, and I am the fastest (but not the smartest) stalker alive."

Normally I would have hated the reversal of tone to more match the last couple of seasons, in any episode, but for this one and getting the exposition of The Thinker & the Devoe's, it worked.  It wasn't a case of 42 minutes of constantly worsening OTT melodrama like years past, but just enough to appreciate the seriousness of the season's main foe.

I found it odd that for as much as Barry thought Devoe was the villain mentioned previously, that he didn't stop to account for surveillance/security in their home.  Also, WhyTF did he not put the Flash suit on to 'break in'??  The pressure you put on my eyes because of their constant rolling, sometimes, BA.

Edited November 29, 2017 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Quark]

I liked this episode, but I'm not sure what to make of Devoe. Him being able to predict Barry's next move is quite reminiscent of Savitar to me.

Also in terms of his look, he reminds me of Albert Einstein, which in terms of his intelligence is probably what the writers are going for.

 

I love Iris.

[KirkB]

On 12/4/2017 at 5:50 PM, Quark said:

I liked this episode, but I'm not sure what to make of Devoe. Him being able to predict Barry's next move is quite reminiscent of Savitar to me.

The difference is, Devoe has to predict what Barry is going to do. He has to take the time to analyze all possible scenarios and make a prediction, which could end up being wrong if he neglects to account for something or is unaware of some change that's occurred since the last time he checked. Savitar literally knew what Barry was thinking at all times and knew any decision he came to as soon as he thought of it. Plus he would know anything Joe or Iris or anyone said or did as long as it was in front of or relayed to Barry. If Barry didn't know, Savitar didn't know. Savitar was 'omniscient' as it relates directly to Barry. Devoe is just really really good at guessing.

Edited January 20, 2018 by KirkB