S03.E09: The Doldrums

[Haleth]

10 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Now if they can just come up with a reason to bring Winston Chong (Joji, the silent, katana-wielding, Samurai pirate) into Outlander, that would just make my day.

 

10 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Billy Bones, please? ;-)

Oh, my, yes.  Toby Stephens and Zach McGowan were pretty easy on the eyes too.  I miss that show.  Maybe the cook on the Artemis was Randall's son or grandson since this is about 50 years later.

[Keeta]

10 hours ago, Nidratime said:

He was getting kudos all over the place (media and fans) for his acting during the first half of this season, so that's why I'm puzzled by the sudden notion that his acting is not up to snuff. And, I wasn't even a part of the audience giving him all those kudos. This is just a head scratcher for me.

Maybe it's just different people voicing this now. I know I for one have had my opinion for a while now - that he overall does a great job, but I have my one main criticism - but I don't want to harp on it all the time. Personally, I chimed in because others were talking about it. 

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

 

Oh, my, yes.  Toby Stephens and Zach McGowan were pretty easy on the eyes too.  I miss that show.  Maybe the cook on the Artemis was Randall's son or grandson since this is about 50 years later.

I can't say I miss the show, because I ended up not caring for it very much by season 2 (Max was the worst!) but I do miss the eye candy.  Maybe we'll get some more of that when Jamie and Claire hop on that other cargo ship with the bat guano...

[WatchrTina]

Random Outlander-related thought of the morning:  I sure hope Claire did not take her very nice surgical instruments and remaining penicillin with her on that British Ship. I sure hope she did not take Brianna's photos. Because as we know (and as photos in EW have shown), she's coming off that ship in naught but her shift.  She usually keeps those things in her secret pocket -- or at least she did on her trip through the stones -- but I guess we can fan-wank that she now feels secure enough to leave them tucked away in her cabin.  Uh, but Marsali also lives in that cabin.  Okay now I'll fan-wank that Marsali is too young and inexperienced to spot that Claire's medical tools are anachronistic to the time. And I'll also assume that, as in the book, Brianna's photos are actually carried about on Jamie's person at all times.  Book!Jamie liked taking them out and looking at them from time to time.  It's a shame we don't get the opportunity to see TV!Jamie do the same. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Random Outlander-related thought of the morning:  I sure hope Claire did not take her very nice surgical instruments and remaining penicillin with her on that British Ship. I sure hope she did not take Brianna's photos. Because as we know (and as photos in EW have shown), she's coming off that ship in naught but her shift.

I bet she will. If I recall correctly, she ended up "making" more penicillin once they reached the New World. And didn't she, or was it Jamie, who got her new medical equipment?

[FnkyChkn34]

14 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Random Outlander-related thought of the morning:  I sure hope Claire did not take her very nice surgical instruments and remaining penicillin with her on that British Ship. I sure hope she did not take Brianna's photos. Because as we know (and as photos in EW have shown), she's coming off that ship in naught but her shift.  She usually keeps those things in her secret pocket -- or at least she did on her trip through the stones -- but I guess we can fan-wank that she now feels secure enough to leave them tucked away in her cabin.  Uh, but Marsali also lives in that cabin.  Okay now I'll fan-wank that Marsali is too young and inexperienced to spot that Claire's medical tools are anachronistic to the time. And I'll also assume that, as in the book, Brianna's photos are actually carried about on Jamie's person at all times.  Book!Jamie liked taking them out and looking at them from time to time.  It's a shame we don't get the opportunity to see TV!Jamie do the same. 

I'm going to guess she took her medical equipment, but she'd lose it one way or another anyway.  She probably left the photos with Jamie, and we know that they use the penicillin again later, but you're right - how, who is keeping it?

[morgan]

18 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Random Outlander-related thought of the morning:  I sure hope Claire did not take her very nice surgical instruments and remaining penicillin with her on that British Ship. I sure hope she did not take Brianna's photos. Because as we know (and as photos in EW have shown), she's coming off that ship in naught but her shift.  She usually keeps those things in her secret pocket -- or at least she did on her trip through the stones -- but I guess we can fan-wank that she now feels secure enough to leave them tucked away in her cabin.  Uh, but Marsali also lives in that cabin.  Okay now I'll fan-wank that Marsali is too young and inexperienced to spot that Claire's medical tools are anachronistic to the time. And I'll also assume that, as in the book, Brianna's photos are actually carried about on Jamie's person at all times.  Book!Jamie liked taking them out and looking at them from time to time.  It's a shame we don't get the opportunity to see TV!Jamie do the same. 

I have stayed away from re-reading voyager while the show is airing because I enjoy the show more if the book isn’t fresh.  But last night I gave in and read some of the ship portion.  Oh how I miss/would love to see show Jamie going through those photos.  And saying more about Brianna than, “you miss her, don’t you?”  Bizarre to me.  I missed his prayers for Claire and the bairne as well.  He just seems so disconnected to Brianna and the passage in the book hammered it home to me again.

As for the medical stuff, I am fan wanking away that they survive.  And if found, they aren’t anachronistic, they are french!  Lol 

[Haleth]

Every time France is used as the source of something anachronistic I think of the Coneheads.

[FnkyChkn34]

She told Young Ian that she knew a fine cutler in the Colonies.  I think this time they can't be French, because she has to keep her lies straight. ;-) 

[AheadofStraight]

23 minutes ago, morgan said:

I have stayed away from re-reading voyager while the show is airing because I enjoy the show more if the book isn’t fresh.  But last night I gave in and read some of the ship portion.  Oh how I miss/would love to see show Jamie going through those photos.  And saying more about Brianna than, “you miss her, don’t you?”  Bizarre to me.  I missed his prayers for Claire and the bairne as well.  He just seems so disconnected to Brianna and the passage in the book hammered it home to me again.

As for the medical stuff, I am fan wanking away that they survive.  And if found, they aren’t anachronistic, they are french!  Lol 

The discussion about Bree was much longer and they cut it. You can see it in the script.  http://www.outlandercommunity.com/insideoutlander/309/  He was also supposed to pull out her pictures :(

Edited November 14, 2017 by AheadofStraight

[morgan]

17 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

The discussion about Bree was much longer and they cut it. You can see it in the script.  http://www.outlandercommunity.com/insideoutlander/309/  He was also supposed to pull out her pictures :(

Sigh.  Of all things to cut!  Oh well.  I did adore the scene in the moonlight so will pretend it was part of it after all.

Edited November 14, 2017 by morgan

[FnkyChkn34]

27 minutes ago, AheadofStraight said:

The discussion about Bree was much longer and they cut it. You can see it in the script.  http://www.outlandercommunity.com/insideoutlander/309/  He was also supposed to pull out her pictures :(

Thanks for posting this script!  But I have a problem with it already, and I've only just read the first line...

"The frigid wind whips through what is normally a bustling harbor - if it weren't the middle of winter."  Bullshit!!!!!  When they were in Lallybroch, it looked like April/May!!  This is actually really bothering me, maybe much more than it should but oh well.  Get the seasons right!

[LoveLeigh]

On 11/12/2017 at 5:36 PM, OftenPerplexed said:

Is anyone else getting really annoyed by Sam Heughan's self-conscious acting?  The repeated squint-glances to the side and just below the camera are driving me nuts. Not to mention the strong inhaling pauses in the middle of sentences. He doesn't do any of that in live interviews - I don't know where he picked it up. The other actors are so much stronger in comparison that I can barely stand to look at him now. He seemed so much better early in the series. Someone please ask him to stop it!!!!

I actually never thought he was a good actor. I studied acting and know a good actor comes from a place of emotional truth. He seems to not really BE angry but is transparently ACTING angry etc. However, i don't think his acting really matters that much. He does an OK job and looks right in the role so I just accept him as Jamie and focus on the story not the acting because I think Caitrona Balfe is an awful actor, she is a real stiff and in many scenes she is totally unlikeable not because of the dialogue but because her own personality seems to be evident. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by DakotaLavender

[FnkyChkn34]

That script is actually really interesting.  The acting Captain of the man-o-war is supposed to be 19 years old, and Claire was so taken aback by the guy who came to help because he's supposed to be just a kid of 14.  (The actors looked older, but that's ok.)  I guess that's showing that the older sailors were more susceptible and are all sick/dead?

[Athena]

4 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

That script is actually really interesting.  The acting Captain of the man-o-war is supposed to be 19 years old, and Claire was so taken aback by the guy who came to help because he's supposed to be just a kid of 14.  (The actors looked older, but that's ok.)  I guess that's showing that the older sailors were more susceptible and are all sick/dead?

The young officer was likely a midshipman, an apprentice officer. All higher ranked naval officers were midshipmen at some point, likely in their adolescence. Midshipmen were between the ages of 13-18. The new acting Captain was probably recently promoted to Lieutenant from being a midshipman considering his age.

Midshipmen were often from good middle and upper class families. It was a place where younger sons could make a mark similar to being in the army. I always found it interesting since they sent these wealthy boys out to sea at 13. Even King William IV was a midshipman where he was in battle at sea at 13.

I didn't watch Black Sails. I already know a bit too much about British naval history. I really enjoyed the sea aspect though less with the sickness scenes.

So grateful they have made Willoughby a real character of depth and intelligence.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

This should maybe go in the Unpopular thread, but since it's been commented on here, I'd like to put my .02 worth in (not that I expect it will make any difference, but it will make me feel better), and that is: a BIG GIANT NO! regarding any Easter Eggs thrown in for/from(?) Black Sails. I didn't watch that show and I don't want any elements of it being thrown into THIS show. It aired and ran for four seasons, I think. I had to feel like the village idiot when I watched Once Upon A Time, with all the Lost Easter Eggs thrown in and had no clue what everyone was talking about and felt lost. Of course, the fact that I stopped watching after Season Three had nothing to do with it.

I want the writers and producers and directors to focus on the characters for this show. To focus and concentrate on Claire, Jamie, Fergus, Wee Ian, Marsali, for the last few episodes we have left. And it's my fervent hope they did that.

I"ll go crawl back in my cave now.

Edited November 14, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[FnkyChkn34]

50 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This should maybe go in the Unpopular thread, but since it's been commented on here, I'd like to put my .02 worth in (not that I expect it will make any difference, but it will make me feel better), and that is: a BIG GIANT NO! regarding any Easter Eggs thrown in for/from(?) Black Sails. I didn't watch that show and I don't want any elements of it being thrown into THIS show. It aired and ran for four seasons, I think. I had to feel like the village idiot when I watched Once Upon A Time, with all the Lost Easter Eggs thrown in and had no clue what everyone was talking about and felt lost. Of course, the fact that I stopped watching after Season Three had nothing to do with it.

I want the writers and producers and directors to focus on the characters for this show. To focus and concentrate on Claire, Jamie, Fergus, Wee Ian, Marsali, for the last few episodes we have left. And it's my fervent hope they did that.

I"ll go crawl back in my cave now.

Well, depending on what you consider an "easter egg"... it's too late.  They are using Black Sails sets.  The ships are already very recognizable as ships from that show.  These types of "easter eggs" will - therefore - be inevitable.  I don't think the show can do much else (Outlander is set 50 years after Black Sails) but even if they do, it shouldn't take anything away from the show or make anyone confused.

My comment was only meant to be taken as "Tom Hopper is hot, let's see more of him in any capacity that I can."  (see: Dickon Tarly in GoT)  He can't be "Billy Bones" on Outlander as he'd be about 80 years old.

[toolazy]

I don't have a problem with Black Sails Easter Eggs as long as they do not impinge in any way on the Outlander story being told.  Since I haven't watched Black Sails (yet), I will be oblivious to them anyway. 

[thesparkinside]

Finally got to watch the episode this morning, and I really enjoyed it.

I don't have a lot to add to what's already been said. I think Sam's doing a really good job. If there are weak moments, it seems to be because the script is a bit weak. He's done some fine work this season.

I haven't watched Black Sails and so haven't noticed any cross-over. I wouldn't say there are "Easter eggs". They're using the same sets (for practical reasons, not in order to pay homage [or whatever] to Black Sails) and apparently there's one actor who's in both. Not exactly a huge overlap.

I did love the little tiff between Marsali and Jamie. And I agree that Claire's comment about letting it "fizzle" was her telling Jamie to give F and M time to get over that initial rush--but to [try to] keep them from consumating their relationship in the meantime, since that would be irrevocable.. I really liked Marsali's feistiness. She has every reason to dislike Claire and is not the sort to keep quiet about it. To be fair, I'm probably okay with her attitude only because I know it will change. If I didn't know that, I would not like her at all.

Though it's been mentioned here in this thread, it's important to remember that Fergus is handicapped. He's limited in the work he can do with one hand. It was more stigmatized in the 18th century to be handicapped/disabled. Add to that the fact that he's a bastard, orphaned Frenchman raised in a brothel as a petty criminal . . . . Well, on it's face, it's a bad match, and while Jamie loves Fergus, I think he's aware that it's a "bad match". And, as is indicated by the list of women's names, Jamie has reason to distrust Fergus's ability/desire to remain faithful to Marsali. I really think Jamie is thinking of Marsali here. He's (rightly) wary of the match.

I'm bummed they cut that bit with Briana's photos, especially since they underplayed the scene when he first sees the photos. What a missed opportunity. I'm sure they edited these episodes ages ago and are kicking themselves for cutting this, given the backlash they got over the earlier scene.

[LadyBrochTuarach]

Everyone's pretty much covered everything. As usual, by the time I get around to finally watching. Bugger to Canadian TV and their air times. BOO. 

Anyways. I'll be the odd one out. I thought the episode was just okay. I was happy for certain points, Willoughby's speech, I like the change to the acupuncture (they've been apart for 20 years, and Claire's a 20th Century surgeon, I can buy that Jamie didn't want to hurt her feelings) and I liked the small intimate moments between J&C. Fergus and Marsali are gold! 

 

I was disappointed with how the episode dragged out and they were stuck at sea. Felt like a bit of a waste of time to me, and silly change. I got to the end of the episode and thought, "what, wait? It's over?" Thinking there should have been a lot more plot to happen. 

 

I would have preffered Murphy the cook to be a more prominent character opposed to captain Raines. Oh well. 

 

Qualms with the posted script, and the stuff they cut. 

- That scene with Willoughby, and Claire,while Claire meets Murphy. 

- Jamie talks to Claire about his concerns with Brianna marrying, and does she still need Claire. 

-Pulling out her photos and looking at them. 

-Telling Claire about Lord John. (I'm not sure why they cut this, considering Claire is going as Mrs.Fraser on the Porpoise, as others have mentioned in earlier posts)

I think i mentioned all the changes. Yes, most are different from the book, but those were great pieces in the script, in my opinion, and I wish they would have left them, and cut out other things. The whole "Jonah" scene could have been done without. Again, I thought time was wasted on that. 

 

Book Qualms:

- Someone is after having Jamie killed, which is why he was mindful in selecting the men on board. But since we don't have the scenes where they're meeting the cargo from the book (before they head to Lallybroch) where someone wants him killed, then I guess they've omitted this altogether? 

-Has the Fiend been omitted altogether? Does this mean Willoughby isn't running off?

 

Other notes: 

-How on earth are they going to fit the rest of the book into the show? The rest seems pretty pertinent not to cut, and that's A LOT of bloody material!  I can't imagine what else they've cut to finish with the pertinent materials and content to push the story forwards. Maybe we are in for some rushed and jam packed episodes. 

- I give Sam a lot of credit for his acting. I think he's done a great job. Considering the writing and what he's given. Everyone else did a sound job, Marsali especially! But I think Sam goes on what the writers/directors want, what works for him, and also to deliver certain lines properly that may be hard to translate to screen. 

-Happy to see our J&C finally coming back into themselves! Woohoo! 

 

I think that's all ?

[toolazy]

11 hours ago, LadyBrochTuarach said:

 

-Pulling out her photos and looking at them. 

 

I've thought about this some and decided that I'm not upset that they cut it.  It always struck me as unrealistic that they would be able to see them at night, in the middle of the ocean, on the deck of a ship.  In one of the holds or cabin that are lit with lanterns or candles, maybe.  But not on deck.  

 

11 hours ago, LadyBrochTuarach said:

 

-How on earth are they going to fit the rest of the book into the show? The rest seems pretty pertinent not to cut, and that's A LOT of bloody material!  I can't imagine what else they've cut to finish with the pertinent materials and content to push the story forwards. Maybe we are in for some rushed and jam packed episodes. 

-

There's quite a bit that they can cut - we don't really need the whole bit with the priest and Mamacita and the dead daughter and the weed and the sangria.  We don't absolutely need Stern, either.  All we really need the priest for is to marry Fergus & Marsali and as I recall, Stern's main role in the book was leading Claire to the priest and then leading them to the cave.  I think that there's a lot in there that can be compressed.  That said, I will lose my shit if they screw up that wedding. That and meeting LJG are the only things I really, really care about for the rest of the season.  

[Nidratime]

I can't recall what happened in the books. Were the Brianna photos lost during the ocean voyage? I think that's definitely understandable if they were, and although Jamie and Claire don't know this now, they can always get more photos later. ;-)

[toolazy]

1 minute ago, Nidratime said:

I can't recall what happened in the books. Were the Brianna photos lost during the ocean voyage? I think that's definitely understandable if they were, and although Jamie and Claire don't know this now, they can always get more photos later. ;-)

I'm kind of confused because there were so very many shipwrecks.  I was thinking it happened when Jamie followed Claire off the Porpoise, but they had them at the Abernathy place in Jamaica so it must have been something that happened subsequent to that, though I can't recall it at the moment.  Even though I've read Voyager about a million times, I always get the various bits on the ships confused.  

[morgan]

I think the photos were lost right before washing up on shore in Georgia.

[LadyBrochTuarach]

1 hour ago, Nidratime said:

I can't recall what happened in the books. Were the Brianna photos lost during the ocean voyage? I think that's definitely understandable if they were, and although Jamie and Claire don't know this now, they can always get more photos later. ;-)

The photos were lost, along with the painting of Willie, when Jamie jumped in the ocean during the storm to save Claire, near the end of the book. As @morgan said, right before washing up on shore in Georgia. It was the very last ship "voyage" if you will. After they saved young Ian.

2 hours ago, toolazy said:

 

There's quite a bit that they can cut - we don't really need the whole bit with the priest and Mamacita and the dead daughter and the weed and the sangria.  We don't absolutely need Stern, either.  All we really need the priest for is to marry Fergus & Marsali and as I recall, Stern's main role in the book was leading Claire to the priest and then leading them to the cave.  I think that there's a lot in there that can be compressed.  That said, I will lose my shit if they screw up that wedding. That and meeting LJG are the only things I really, really care about for the rest of the season.  

Yes that whole Mamacita bit can be skipped right over. I thought it was a bit ridiculous in the books. I forced myself to read through it. I skimmed it on the second read. 

I have a feeling they've planned on doing it anyways, as you said they only need the priest, and that's where Marsali gets her wedding dress as well. With Claire's old clothes from Paris, I think they'll have Marsali wear one of those. Which means technically we don't need Mamacita or any old dresses. But the question remains, how do we stumble upon our priest! Probably some very quick scenes with Stern. Or, if they omit him from helping find the cave at the end, they might not need Stern at all. And Claire will just conveniently run into him when she jumps ship from the Porpoise. 

[Nidratime]

Quote

I have a feeling they've planned on doing it anyways, as you said they only need the priest, and that's where Marsali gets her wedding dress as well. With Claire's old clothes from Paris, I think they'll have Marsali wear one of those. Which means technically we don't need Mamacita or any old dresses. But the question remains, how do we stumble upon our priest! Probably some very quick scenes with Stern. Or, if they omit him from helping find the cave at the end, they might not need Stern at all. And Claire will just conveniently run into him when she jumps ship from the Porpoise. 

Well, Claire is going to run into someone once she washes up on the island, so it's going to be some combination of Stern, the priest, and/or mamacita -- with the priest being one of the most important, but I kind of like Stern too.

[FnkyChkn34]

I don't recall mamacita at all - who is that?  Is she related to the alligator acid trip?  If so, yes, please eliminate all of that.

[Nidratime]

She is the priest's mother-in-law, if I'm recalling correctly.

[GHScorpiosRule]

You're welcome.

[LadyBrochTuarach]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't recall mamacita at all - who is that?  Is she related to the alligator acid trip?  If so, yes, please eliminate all of that.

The alligator is a bit later on. They're two separate story parts, and it looks like from trailers that it's also included to some degree. As @Nidratime mentioned, Mamacita is the priests mother in law. I don't remember how his wife died, though. In the book they use one of her dresses for Marsali's wedding. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by LadyBrochTuarach

[GHScorpiosRule]

[jmnf19]

On 11/13/2017 at 9:06 PM, Nidratime said:

He was getting kudos all over the place (media and fans) for his acting during the first half of this season, so that's why I'm puzzled by the sudden notion that his acting is not up to snuff. And, I wasn't even a part of the audience giving him all those kudos. This is just a head scratcher for me.

There are many negative posts about his acting as well. Maybe not here as much. It's not sudden. More likely that people are reluctant to voice their opinion because they're attacked if they do. We can enjoy the series and still see the negative aspects of it. It's all just a matter of opinion anyway. 

[MadameKillerB]

11 hours ago, jmnf19 said:

There are many negative posts about his acting as well. Maybe not here as much. It's not sudden. More likely that people are reluctant to voice their opinion because they're attacked if they do. We can enjoy the series and still see the negative aspects of it. It's all just a matter of opinion anyway. 

Yeah. I still (mostly) enjoy the show. But I've always thought Sam "cheated" his head/face too much in scenes and it became a drinking game for me ;) However, I think this series is a good place for him to grow his craft. 

[Nidratime]

Quote

There are many negative posts about his acting as well. Maybe not here as much. It's not sudden. More likely that people are reluctant to voice their opinion because they're attacked if they do. We can enjoy the series and still see the negative aspects of it. It's all just a matter of opinion anyway. 

I'm sorry if you felt attacked. You said you found Sam's acting cringeworthy, period. No explanation or examples beyond that, and I immediately thought about the last two episodes of season 1, and the incredible, cringeworthy? (in a different meaning of the word) acting with both Sam and Tobias, The Reckoning episode with the confrontation between Cait and Sam, The Watch episode, The Helwater episode, the first episode of season 3, where Sam is lying on the battle field of Culloden and as he lay there, only act through his face, and make us feel what he was feeling without moving or speaking.

I read about this show at other places as well: Reddit, Google groups, Digitalspy, as well as listen to and watch podcasts and recaps and I haven't come across total condemnation. I've certainly heard and read criticisms of Sam for different episodes. Some of which I've agreed with. But not an overall negative reaction, so I was curious about what made his body of work cringeworthy.

I totally agree that everyone doesn't see things the same way. In fact, I was watching/listening to the last couple of reviews/recaps at Gold Derby which is a site that reviews shows/movies/actors, etc. and then they discuss who might be up for awards, who should be, what's the politics behind the nominations, and so on. And just in one of the latest episodes, they talked about the Golden Globes and said they thought Caitriona might get a nomination. They also said that Sam should get a nomination, but that the male drama category is so competitive, actors who should get nominations are often left out. So, clearly people do disagree, but the question I always want to know is why someone feels as they do.

[jmnf19]

1 hour ago, Nidratime said:

I'm sorry if you felt attacked. You said you found Sam's acting cringeworthy, period. No explanation or examples beyond that, and I immediately thought about the last two episodes of season 1, and the incredible, cringeworthy? (in a different meaning of the word) acting with both Sam and Tobias, The Reckoning episode with the confrontation between Cait and Sam, The Watch episode, The Helwater episode, the first episode of season 3, where Sam is lying on the battle field of Culloden and as he lay there, only act through his face, and make us feel what he was feeling without moving or speaking.

I read about this show at other places as well: Reddit, Google groups, Digitalspy, as well as listen to and watch podcasts and recaps and I haven't come across total condemnation. I've certainly heard and read criticisms of Sam for different episodes. Some of which I've agreed with. But not an overall negative reaction, so I was curious about what made his body of work cringeworthy.

I totally agree that everyone doesn't see things the same way. In fact, I was watching/listening to the last couple of reviews/recaps at Gold Derby which is a site that reviews shows/movies/actors, etc. and then they discuss who might be up for awards, who should be, what's the politics behind the nominations, and so on. And just in one of the latest episodes, they talked about the Golden Globes and said they thought Caitriona might get a nomination. They also said that Sam should get a nomination, but that the male drama category is so competitive, actors who should get nominations are often left out. So, clearly people do disagree, but the question I always want to know is why someone feels as they do.

But I never said all his work was cringeworthy.  I specifically said “some” of the scenes were cringeworthy. And as I was replying to someone’s post (and quoted it) and was agreeing with it, those scenes are some that I was referring to. I can’t remember every scene I found bad and don’t have the time to watch everything back to find them. I’ve certainly winced quite a few times. 

 

But yes, I do feel generally Sam is not all that good an actor and if you’d like me to elaborate, I will. If he had all the physical attributes but the acting was bad, you would allow for the fact that they cast him for the look. I was willing to get passed the fact that the physical features weren’t there (that Jamie was supposed to tower over everyone, have slanted eyes, and basically be rugged, not the more effeminate facial features that Sam has). I remember one scene in the book where Jamie and Lord John were walking side by side and the stark difference in their builds and height was mentioned. Here in that scene, Jamie and Lord John were almost the same height! (with Jamie a bit broader). BUT, if the acting is good enough, you forget about all that. Sam hasn’t managed that for me.

 

I didn’t mean I was attacked myself, by the way, but I see it often enough with other posters and people do tend to be afraid to post their negative thoughts. That was in reply to why others may not be posting negative thoughts about Sam’s acting.

[FnkyChkn34]

22 hours ago, jmnf19 said:

But yes, I do feel generally Sam is not all that good an actor and if you’d like me to elaborate, I will. If he had all the physical attributes but the acting was bad, you would allow for the fact that they cast him for the look. I was willing to get passed the fact that the physical features weren’t there (that Jamie was supposed to tower over everyone, have slanted eyes, and basically be rugged, not the more effeminate facial features that Sam has). I remember one scene in the book where Jamie and Lord John were walking side by side and the stark difference in their builds and height was mentioned. Here in that scene, Jamie and Lord John were almost the same height! (with Jamie a bit broader). BUT, if the acting is good enough, you forget about all that. Sam hasn’t managed that for me.

In my opinion, many of DG's descriptions are just completely unrealistic.  For a screen adaptation, obviously concessions would have to be made.  Sam Heughan is 6'3" - that's pretty tall, and you aren't going to find many good actors that are much taller.  You also aren't going to find many good actors that are shorter than 5'11" - it's (unfortunately) just the Hollywood norm.  I don't think this show (or any adaptation) is for people who want the characters to look and be exactly as they are in the books; it's nearly impossible.

[Nidratime]

How tall was Jamie supposed to be in the books? 6'4"? That's not too far off from Sam. I think the problem is that they cast a rather tall Claire, when the character was much shorter in the books -- maybe 5'6"? -- and some of the men of Leoch who they cast were also comparably tall, like Dougal. So, in comparison Jamie doesn't look as big. Sam did bulk up to try and get his "bigness" across and in certain scenes where we did see him without his shirt, he did look pretty impressive. 

To be honest, the way Jamie is described in the book, makes him seem more rugged and less "pretty boy" handsome, but in the adaptation Sam's looks work for me because the prettiness makes me understand why so many people -- women and men -- seemed to have a thing for him. ;-)

[GHScorpiosRule]

Just now, Nidratime said:

How tall was Jamie supposed to be in the books? 6'4"? That's not too far off from Sam. I think the problem is that they cast a rather tall Claire, when the character was much shorter in the books -- maybe 5'6"? -- and some of the men of Leoch who they cast were also comparably tall, like Dougal. So, in comparison Jamie doesn't look as big. Sam did bulk up to try and get his "bigness" across and in certain scenes where we did see him without his shirt, he did look pretty impressive. 

To be honest, the way Jamie is described in the book, makes him seem more rugged and less "pretty boy" handsome, but in the adaptation Sam's looks work for me because the prettiness makes me understand why so many people -- women and men -- seemed to have a thing for him. ;-)

Not only that, but Murtagh was on the short side; like Angus. And described as a rat face by Gabaldon. I think Dougal was tall, but he also had the red hair, though more muted. I think I said it in another thread, that I had no intention of even watching this show because I wasn't impressed with the buiks I had managed to read, but seeing Sam changed my mind.

[Nidratime]

Yes, Dougal had hair in the books and it was actually dark hair, kind of like Jenny's.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, Nidratime said:

Yes, Dougal had hair in the books and it was actually dark hair, kind of like Jenny's.

I thought it was Colum who had the dark hair like Jenny's? EGADS. Now I'm going to have to go check. Unless someone else has their buik handy...???

[FnkyChkn34]

I think that Dougal was supposed to be tall, as were both Ellen and Brian - that's where Jamie got it from.  So the actor playing Dougal also being tall didn't bother me one bit.  Angus, Rupert, and even Murtagh were changed so much from the books, that their physical descriptions didn't really work either on screen.  

Sam is equal parts rugged and pretty for my liking.  (I don't think I'd ever consider him "pretty" actually - he's just handsome.)  

[jmnf19]

2 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

In my opinion, many of DG's descriptions are just completely unrealistic.  For a screen adaptation, obviously concessions would have to be made.  Sam Heughan is 6'3" - that's pretty tall, and you aren't going to find many good actors that are much taller.  You also aren't going to find many good actors that are shorter than 5'11" - it's (unfortunately) just the Hollywood norm.  I don't think this show (or any adaptation) is for people who want the characters to look and be exactly as they are in the books; it's nearly impossible.

Yes, that is part of the problem, casting other actors that are too tall. Sam is 6'2" (don't count the 1/2" on iMDB, it's a well known practice for agents to add 1/2" or so to male actors' bios) and Catriona is 5'9" where they were supposed to be 6'4" and 5'6", so only a 5" difference onscreen as opposed to 10" in the books. Claire was also supposed to be rounder, not thin like Catriona (and not pigeon-toed :D -j/k). The biggest disappointment is Lord John Grey. He was perfect as the 16-year-old Grey, true to the books. Then they cast a tall 6'1" actor (John Grey was 5'6") for the old Grey with dark hair (how hard is it to pop a blonde wig on him on die his hair blonde).

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I thought it was Colum who had the dark hair like Jenny's? EGADS. Now I'm going to have to go check. Unless someone else has their buik handy...???

Yes, it was Colum who had black hair. Dougal's was a reddish brown.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, jmnf19 said:

Yes, that is part of the problem, casting other actors that are too tall. Sam is 6'2" (don't count the 1/2" on iMDB, it's a well known practice for agents to add 1/2" or so to male actors' bios) and Catriona is 5'9" where they were supposed to be 6'4" and 5'6", so only a 5" difference onscreen as opposed to 10" in the books. Claire was also supposed to be rounder, not thin like Catriona (and not pigeon-toed :D -j/k). The biggest disappointment is Lord John Grey. He was perfect as the 16-year-old Grey, true to the books. Then they cast a tall 6'1" actor (John Grey was 5'6") for the old Grey with dark hair (how hard is it to pop a blonde wig on him on die his hair blonde).

All I did was use the google for "Sam Heughan height" and it said 6'3".  I've actually seen him listed at 6'4" as well, so I guess no one really knows how tall he is.  

There aren't many "round" 5'6" actresses either, so I stand by my point.  Concessions had to be made, and I for one, don't care.  I'm sorry to see that others do.  

[jmnf19]

1 minute ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

All I did was use the google for "Sam Heughan height" and it said 6'3".  I've actually seen him listed at 6'4" as well, so I guess no one really knows how tall he is.  

There aren't many "round" 5'6" actresses either, so I stand by my point.  Concessions had to be made, and I for one, don't care.  I'm sorry to see that others do.  

As I originally said, it doesn't matter as much if they can act. I'm only stipulating the differences from book to screen because we were talking about it (why the heights are more noticeable onscreen). And I beg to differ. It may be harder to find a 5'6" male, but not at all difficult to find a 5'6" actress that's not that thin.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, jmnf19 said:

As I originally said, it doesn't matter as much if they can act. I'm only stipulating the differences from book to screen because we were talking about it (why the heights are more noticeable onscreen). And I beg to differ. It may be harder to find a 5'6" male, but not at all difficult to find a 5'6" actress that's not that thin.

Apparently they had a very hard time casting Claire, and many actresses read for the part.  IMO, sounds like it was difficult.

[Scarlett45]

If someone asked me to describe Sam’s look (facially- I know he gained weight for the role), I would say he was ruggedly handsome. I don’t quite see him as “pretty”- IMO pretty men have more feminine, fine, soft facial features (like women). His face while FINE is distinctly masculine (to me). 

 

Im not a book reader but I do think that in the 21st century a 6’4 Jaime wouldn’t stick out in a crowd as much (especially a crowd of actors) because people are taller than they were in the 18th century (and of course we know they are heavier). Yes you did have naturally tall people (just like you had a few heavy or “plump” people) just not as many. In 2017 a man who’s 6’4 would be tall but not extraordinarily so. 

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

If someone asked me to describe Sam’s look (facially- I know he gained weight for the role), I would say he was ruggedly handsome. I don’t quite see him as “pretty”- IMO pretty men have more feminine, fine, soft facial features (like women). His face while FINE is distinctly masculine (to me). 

I wouldn't say that Sam is exactly "pretty" either, but I think he's "prettier" than his book counterpart. For me, Sam looks nothing like the book description simply because he's too modern looking--too rounded and too sculpted. However, I do think Sam captures the spirit of Jamie quite nicely, so I'm fine with their choice. Other than maybe Jenny, practically none of the casting has matched my mental picture of their book counterparts, but I think they've done an amazing job of casting and capturing these characters in other ways.

[Kim0820]

On 11/12/2017 at 8:31 AM, ihartcoffee said:

Willoughby's speech was so beautiful!  I was so moved.  Loved him doing acupuncture on Jamie. 

I just knew they'd take off with Claire,  having not read in some year's I'm not as up on the plot.  

As soon as Claire came on the boat, it was practically TV law that she would be stuck on it.  I was relieved that there was no impressment though.  I've had enough of the British military being jerks.  I was glad they needed help instead.  But they are still jerks for taking her off. 

On 11/12/2017 at 9:26 AM, WatchrTina said:

Now I have to go watch again.  With all the puking this isn't likely to be my favorite episode but parts of it were excellent.

"Realism" seems to be considered so necessary these days.  And talk about bodily functions/bathroom humor.  

On 11/12/2017 at 10:53 AM, leighdear said:

I thought the Willoughby explanation went on a little too long, but the payoff was well done.  Very enjoyable, and I love Marsali. 

The people on the ship were mesmerized.  He really distracted them.  And a good thing, since of the man had been thrown overboard, the wind coincidentally coming up would have made it look justifiable to the superstitious. 

On 11/14/2017 at 10:26 AM, AheadofStraight said:

The discussion about Bree was much longer and they cut it. You can see it in the script.  http://www.outlandercommunity.com/insideoutlander/309/  He was also supposed to pull out her pictures 😞

Overall, there seems little talk about Brianna, and you'd think it would be a major subject.  With all those adventures, Jaime and Claire don't have time to talk about what they would normally talk about.

I read a romance novel about hand fasting once; I thought it was good enough, so Jamie talking about Marsali's "virtue" seemed ridiculous.  

A seasick person should stay outside in the fresh air rather than go inside.   And eat crackers, I think.  I haven't been on a boat in forever, at least not out on the ocean, but I remember that advice as I got seasick and had to take Dramamine, which makes you sleepy.  Ginger tea might be worth trying!  

I suppose you get used to it over time.  There are novels mentioning that you get sea legs, and when you hit land, it is hard to walk for awhile, until you walk enough to get your land legs back.  

Marsali is as obnoxious as Laoghaire.  It's pretty sure Laoghaire did not love Jamie, but just thought he was a prized possession.