S13.E04: The Big Empty

[Katy M]

21 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I thought Shifters needed to actually touch some part of the person whose shape they were going to take?

I don't think so.  In Monster Movie, the shifter took the form of a long dead actress as well as "Dracula."  And in Ask Jeeves, I think Olivia took the place of her mother's late husband, who died before she was born. We were specifically told that Leviathans needed some DNA to change shape.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Katy M

[Wayward Son]

22 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Ok, upon second viewing, I have a few questions about the Shifter storyline.  I thought Shifters needed to actually touch some part of the person whose shape they were going to take?  Am I wrong about that?  If not, then how did the doctor take on the shapes of the deceased family members?  Also, just a nitpick, but this woman does this as a career, so I don't see her leaving this messy blood trail all throughout her house.  I get that we needed a hint as to what she was, but that was way too obvious.  Lastly, I'm really surprised there wasn't even a short conversation at the end about leaving the Shifter alive.  I know that she was supposed to be good, and I didn't want them to kill her, but it did seem strange to me that they didn't even have a discussion about what to do with her.

I’m actually glad that there was no discussion. She had just proven she would rather die herself than cause harm to someone else. I’d have been beyond disgusted with the brother who suggested killing someone like that. 

[MysteryGuest]

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't think so.  In Monster Movie, the shifter took the form of a long dead actress as well as "Dracula."  And in Ask Jeeves, I think Olivia took the place of her mother's late husband, who died before she was born. We were specifically told that Leviathans needed some DNA to change shape.

Ok, so maybe I'm confusing Shifter with Leviathans.  It just seems that most times we see a Shifter, we find the dead body of the person they're impersonating.  Thanks for answering.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

DeanGirl rage aside, I'm just disappointed with so many things - and at the top of the list is the ever-growing disregard for canon and lore.

We've all come to except that nothing/nobody is ever really dead on the show, but goddamnit, burnt up wings are burned out wings. Even when Cas was exploded or turned into black goo and presumed dead and gone, there were no burnt up wings. God himself said it would take an untold amount of time to resurrect Gabriel or Raphael - but Not!Cas just pushes him on back to life? Bullshit.

We should be able to count on some things - and now we can trust nothing at all. Not good storytelling.

Don't get me started on Dean just giving up on Mary so easily and assuming Lucifer killed her immediately. Or, at all. 7+ years of this character have shown us (and them) that he likes to play with his food. The fact that Dean and Sam are alive is prima facie evidence of that. But yes, let's just forget all that. Let's forget that this is Dean Winchester we're talking about.

And Sam's impassioned speech about not getting quality time with Mary that Dean was so blessed with. Did they watch any of last season? Any of it at all? FFS.

I agree with @KatyM that the ‘Empty’ was established well in advance.  And for YEARS fans have been asking what happened to Angels and Demons when they really really die.  I think of the Empty as a 0 energy state of ultimate loss of motion.  Cas was woken by Jack but Jack did NOT resurrect Cas.  He caused Cas to obtain awareness which was obviously an anathema to the Empty and it spit him out.  The Empty said even God couldn’t pull someone out of the Empty.  So, only the Empty could release him from his state.   I don’t think anything in canon is contradicted —which is pretty amazing.  And it still fits within ‘In The beginning there was ‘nothing.’   

Dean shutting off hope for Mary fits IMO with his current state of inner deadness.  Even last night his armor showed signs of cracking. 

And I also agree, this is Sam’s POV and I can see where he gets that.  He’s had even less talking with Mary than Dean did in S12.  And siblings always feel like they are the least favored.  

[Whodunnit]

Ha! Qstiel, I like that. (He actually did remind me of Q yesterday.) Does anyone else think that the Empty's Gatekeeper was maybe Hypnos/Sandman? (In greek mythology Hypnos was death's brother and we know Death was no ordinary angel.) I am maybe over thinking this.

[DittyDotDot]

26 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Ok, upon second viewing, I have a few questions about the Shifter storyline.  I thought Shifters needed to actually touch some part of the person whose shape they were going to take?  

I don't think they need to touch them, like Leviathans did, but the shifter in S1 was able to tap into Dean's memories and such. Most the shifters, including the baby in S6, can take a different shape just from an image, though. Actually becoming that person is a different matter. In this case, it didn't appear she was becoming the people she was shifting into. With Jack, it seemed like she was more grief counselor and not actually Kelly...does that make sense?

30 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Also, just a nitpick, but this woman does this as a career, so I don't see her leaving this messy blood trail all throughout her house.

Did she leave a blood trail? I thought Sam went snooping after he saw the sign that marked the bathroom--which, I believe was connected to the therapy room--off limits. I think she used the bathroom to shift in, but it was supposed to be off limits to everyone else. Which made a certain amount of sense to me.

3 minutes ago, Whodunnit said:

Ha! Qstiel, I like that. (He actually did remind me of Q yesterday.) Does anyone else think that the Empty's Gatekeeper was maybe Hypnos/Sandman? (In greek mythology Hypnos was death's brother and we know Death was no ordinary angel.) I am maybe over thinking this.

I like this! But, then again, I do love me some Death... . ;)

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Whodunnit said:

Ha! Qstiel, I like that. (He actually did remind me of Q yesterday.) Does anyone else think that the Empty's Gatekeeper was maybe Hypnos/Sandman? (In greek mythology Hypnos was death's brother and we know Death was no ordinary angel.) I am maybe over thinking this.

Ohhh that would be cool. Does Sandman take the form of others?

[MysteryGuest]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Did she leave a blood trail? I thought Sam went snooping after he saw the sign that marked the bathroom--which, I believe was connected to the therapy room--off limits. I think she used the bathroom to shift in, but it was supposed to be off limits to everyone else. Which made a certain amount of sense to me.

There were bloody handprints on the stair railings.  I know she used the bathroom for shifting, but it just makes sense to me that a monster would cover it's tracks better than that.  Lots of people go wandering where they're not supposed to, and would automatically assume a murder had taken place in that bathroom.  Anyway, I said it was just a nitpick, so I'll get over it.

And as long as I'm picking nits, when the Shifter is peeling his face off, I know that we were supposed to be shocked and grossed out by that, but the doctor shouldn't have been.  She's a Shifter and peels off people's skin all the time.  I thought her reaction could have been a little different.  

I still liked the episode, but I definitely think the monster story was the weakest link.

Edited November 3, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Whodunnit]

Of course if he was death's brother or father or whatever then he would be gunning for Dean 'cause Dean ganked death.

I dunno.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Whodunnit
Spellchecker changed my word.

[SueB]

I think all the shifter had to do see the person. Since Monster Movie we know thee shifter could turn into the film version of Dracula, a werewolf or a mummy.  It’s Leviathan’s who needed DNA.

 

I give a pass pass on not discussing on screen Mia’s date because she offered to be killed rather than kill Dean & Jack.  That’s kind of a deal-sealer for the boys.   

ETA: mia did leave a blood trail on the railing.  I attribute that to the boys showing up unexpected at the end of day.  She may have had to rapidly shift to deal with them.  

Edited November 3, 2017 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

There were bloody handprints on the stair railings.  I know she used the bathroom for shifting, but it just makes sense to me that a monster would cover it's tracks better than that.  Lots of people go wandering where they're not supposed to, and would automatically assume a murder had taken place in that bathroom.  Anyway, I said it was just a nitpick, so I'll get over it.

I missed the bloody hand prints, I guess. Yeah, I wouldn't think she'd leave it out in the open like that and I think Sam could've still found the bathroom without them... . Whatever, right?

2 minutes ago, Whodunnit said:

Of course if he was death's brother or father or whatever then he would be gunning for Dean 'cause Dean ganked death.

Or, maybe he's happy Dean ganked Death so they could spend some quality time sleeping together? ;)

[gonzosgirrl]

25 minutes ago, SueB said:

I agree with @KatyM that the ‘Empty’ was established well in advance.  And for YEARS fans have been asking what happened to Angels and Demons when they really really die.  I think of the Empty as a 0 energy state of ultimate loss of motion.  Cas was woken by Jack but Jack did NOT resurrect Cas.  He caused Cas to obtain awareness which was obviously an anathema to the Empty and it spit him out.  The Empty said even God couldn’t pull someone out of the Empty.  So, only the Empty could release him from his state.   I don’t think anything in canon is contradicted —which is pretty amazing.  And it still fits within ‘In The beginning there was ‘nothing.’   

Dean shutting off hope for Mary fits IMO with his current state of inner deadness.  Even last night his armor showed signs of cracking. 

And I also agree, this is Sam’s POV and I can see where he gets that.  He’s had even less talking with Mary than Dean did in S12.  And siblings always feel like they are the least favored.  

My point was, heretofore, burnt wings = dead angel. Now, burnt wings = dead, sure, but if he/she is just annoying enough they can come back. Gabriel must be all manner of pissed right now.

Sam had plenty of talking with Mary behind Dean's back. Maybe he just blocked that out.

Edited November 3, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My point was, heretofore, burnt wings = dead angel. Now, burnt wings = dead, sure, but if he/she is just annoying enough they can come back. Gabriel must be all manner of pissed right now.

Castiel is the first to wake up because Jack woke him up.  Although, that also becomes problematic because Whatever told Cas that God had no say there.  I can accept that Jack is more powerful than Lucifer.  But, more powerful than God.  Nope.  No way.  But, anyway, none of the other angels or demons could be annoying unless they start snoring.

I really don't know that I have a good way to bring Cas back. But, maybe that's because if it were up to me I would have left him dead.  I would have done the Big Empty differently though.  It would have been vast.  Everyone would be awake, but because it's so big, it would take Cas a few days, weeks, whatever to run into anyone.  I'm trying to decide who would be best. Zach?  Raphael?  Gabriel?  Stunt demon #3?  Maybe it would turn out that there was a way out of the Big Empty, but it would take literally everyone in the Big Empty working together.  And, of course, they had never been able to achieve that before until Leader Cas came along.  Yes, I'm rolling my eyes at that as I type it, but let's face it, it does sound like something show would do.  I don't really care how they got him back.  I just really wish they would have incorporated at least a couple of the dead big bads.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

My point was, heretofore, burnt wings = dead angel. Now, burnt wings = dead, sure, but if he/she is just annoying enough they can come back. Gabriel must be all manner of pissed right now.

Well, Gabriel might not even be really dead. Did we see his burnt wings? I can't remember TBH.

Or maybe the empty doesn't apply to archangels since they are more powerful than Castiel level angels.

I know this sounds like a stupid question but has the show officially confirmed it was The Empty? Was it called the Empty by "Qstiel".  I ask this because Billie said she would send the boys to the Empty. Why would she send them where Demons and Angels go as a final place? I could see Death sending Dean to the Empty when he had the Mark of Cain because that made him essentially immortal. 

If Death had just told Dean he could go and sleep forever, I think Dean would take that deal. Is this how they end the show "Lay Their Weary Heads to Rest" in that place that seems basically peaceful.

[MysteryGuest]

By having Cas die last season, including burnt wings and toasted vessel, they did sort of back themselves into a corner as far as the canon goes.  There really is no good explanation for how he comes back other than just making something up.  It's possible we might get a more detailed explanation of just where he went and how he was brought back, but it's just as likely we won't.  It does make you wonder if the death of Cas last season was sort of a trial balloon.  Maybe they were waiting to see what sort of a response they got before deciding just what to do with his character?  Was Jack originally intended to be the new Castiel?  I'd love to be a fly on the wall at some of these writer meetings.

Edited November 3, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[SueB]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, Gabriel might not even be really dead. Did we see his burnt wings? I can't remember TBH.

Or maybe the empty doesn't apply to archangels since they are more powerful than Castiel level angels.

I know this sounds like a stupid question but has the show officially confirmed it was The Empty? Was it called the Empty by "Qstiel".  I ask this because Billie said she would send the boys to the Empty. Why would she send them where Demons and Angels go as a final place? I could see Death sending Dean to the Empty when he had the Mark of Cain because that made him essentially immortal. 

If Death had just told Dean he could go and sleep forever, I think Dean would take that deal. Is this how they end the show "Lay Their Weary Heads to Rest" in that place that seems basically peaceful.

In the Empty you are nothing.  You are not conscious.  It’s not a peaceful afterlife, it’s non existence.  In Hell you are actively tortured.  In Heaven you are having a party.  In Purgatory you are chasing things and hunting.  In the Empty you exist with no awareness of existence.  You lack sentience because you don’t know you are asleep.  

And since the history of ever, no one has disturbed this non-awareness, there’s no pull to do anything.  Which is how the Empty liked it. 

Quote

The Big Crunch:

If the universe's expansion speed does not exceed the escape velocity, then the mutual gravitationalattraction of all its matter will eventually cause it to contract. If entropy continues to increase in the contracting phase (see Ergodic hypothesis), the contraction would appear very different from the time reversal of the expansion. While the early universe was highly uniform, a contracting universe would become increasingly clumped.[1] Eventually all matter would collapse into black holes, which would then coalesce, producing a unified black hole or Big Crunch singularity.  (From Wikipedia)

Bold = my emphasis. See my theory that The Empty is a manifestation on Entropy.  Perhaps eventually, when there is enough beings in The Empty, it will trigger the Big Crunch. (See Wikipedia summary above).  Which is of course FUNNY because this show is essentially providing a narrative story of what will lead to another Big Bang.  Which is our time slot competition.  *say with Bill and TED voice* ‘Woah’.  

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

By having Cas die last season, including burnt wings and toasted vessel, they did sort of back themselves into a corner as far as the canon goes.  There really is no good explanation for how he comes back other than just making something up.  It's possible we might get a more detailed explanation of just where he went and how he was brought back, but it's just as likely we won't.  It does make you wonder if the death of Cas last season was sort of a trial balloon.  Maybe they were waiting to see what sort of a response they got before deciding just what to do with his character?  Was Jack originally intended to be the new Castle?  I'd love to be a fly on the wall at some of these writer meetings.

I think Misha was never going anywhere.  I think the Cosmic consequences and the death of Billy and the Death of Death and the constant hints about The Empty were leading to this location.  And it might not be done yet.  

Edited November 3, 2017 by SueB

[Katy M]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, Gabriel might not even be really dead. Did we see his burnt wings? I can't remember TBH.

Yes, we saw the light through the eyes and the burnt out wings on the floor.

[MysteryGuest]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think Misha was never going anywhere.  I think the Cosmic consequences and the death of Billy and the Death of Death and the constant hints about The Empty were leading to this location.  And it might not be done yet.

It does seem surprising to me that they would attempt to take on The Empty and the Alternate Universe in the same season though.  That's a pretty big undertaking.  I guess we'll have to wait to see whether they manage to do either one of them justice.

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, we saw the light through the eyes and the burnt out wings on the floor.

Gabriel was the master trickster, so we really don't know if those things were faked or not. Basically, I can't hear you....LA LA LA LA LA... Light and burnt wings or no light and burnt wings, Gabriel is alive and still making frat boys dance with aliens!! ;)

As to Cass, he did die. The burnt wings and light were real. He was dead and gone until Jack woke him up. That doesn't mean we can't trust any other angel death in the future, though. Cass is a special case here and we can't expect every angel to get a another chance like that.

[Whodunnit]

Well God did seem to think that Cas is a special snowflake.

I like the Entropy idea SueB.

Gabriel certainly did think he was a special snowflake, but if anyone could fake a WingsofAsh death it's him.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Whodunnit
Too much death.

[Icarus]

Well as usual I read a lot of comments, tweets etc before I actually watched it (I am in the UK and I don't get a chance to download until the next evening). I didn't find it as bad as some have found it – don't like the way they are writing Dean, he is written as a dick currentlyh – didn't like or agree with how they wrote Sam saying he was like John and didn't like Sam's holier than thou attitude and the Mary bit was just errr what!? I had no problem with the Cas in the empty – I thought it was really rather good and the accent of the “empty Cas” was well done in my opinion, not sure why there is so much hate for it, worked for me!!

I guess you can analyse and analyse and bring your own emotions translating into these characters, as many do with their enormously in depth thoughts about what the characters are feeling. I used to wait impatiently for Bardicvoice's review and read it avidly, her interpretation of the story was always interesting even if I couldn't see what she did, it made me look at everything more deeply, unfortunately I just cannot get into that headspace with the writing now, it IMO just does not deserve that sort of analysis. Yes Jensen and Jared are acting what is given to them but it does not – again IMO have the depth of previous years.

I don't actually have a problem with Dean being knocked out as apart from the times when he is written as a wuss the kill count is not that important to me. So it won't be one I watch again, unless I am doing a whole season rewatch at some stage (seems unlikely at the moment) but I certainly didn't count it as one of the absolutely will not watch again.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

In the Empty you are nothing.  You are not conscious.  It’s not a peaceful afterlife, it’s non existence.  In Hell you are actively tortured.  In Heaven you are having a party.  In Purgatory you are chasing things and hunting.  In the Empty you exist with no awareness of existence.  You lack sentience because you don’t know you are asleep.  

And since the history of ever, no one has disturbed this non-awareness, there’s no pull to do anything.  Which is how the Empty liked i

 

If the Empty is non existence then Jack shouldn't have been able to find Cas.  Unless Jack has the power to find non existent entities and reconstitute them. If Jack can find non existence and make it exist then he IS more powerful than God, and he is the most powerful entity in the universe.

If you don't know you don't exist then you won't know you don't exist. But the people left behind know you existed. It's not erasing you from a previous existence. It's just ceasing to be existence when you get sent there. It's better than eternal torment or even the neverending Heaven.

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yes, we saw the light through the eyes and the burnt out wings on the floor.

I remember the light but couldn't remember about the wings. Thanks!

[MysteryGuest]

But how does any of this explain Cas coming back in the same physical body?  That body was destroyed.  I know God magically reconstructed him after Michael exploded him, but it's starting to border on the ridiculous.  It would have made more sense if they'd buried Cas' body on the off chance that maybe Jack could bring him back.  I know...it's not science, it's television.  I need to get over it.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But how does any of this explain Cas coming back in the same physical body?  That body was destroyed.  I know God magically reconstructed him after Michael exploded him, but it's starting to border on the ridiculous.  It would have made more sense if they'd buried Cas' body on the off chance that maybe Jack could bring him back.  I know...it's not science, it's television.  I need to get over it.

My current headcanon is that Jack has the power to create life out of molecules. I don't think he just woke Cas from his sleep. I think he remade Castiel from his memories. He has memories of Lucifer so why not Castiel as well. Like angel connection stuff from his half arch angel side.

Guck said it would take them a long time to rebuild Gabriel and they didn't have time to do it in s11. Maybe Jack is far more powerful than anyone ever thought. Maybe he has God powers.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

I actually forgot this was on last night.  What?  I know; I went from giddy with excitement to forgetting about the show.  That's sad.  I will say that it had Nothing whatsoever to do with the characters, the actors, the story line, or anything to do with the show.  I just lost track of my days.  I enjoyed this one.  The MOTW wasn’t terribly exciting in the end, and I agree that his motivation didn't seem very well developed: like they ran out of time in the script.  I also thought it wrapped up a little too fast and neat.  Some uncomfortable parts, but I think some that were needed to get through in order to get to a better place.

• I’m glad that Jack confronted Sam about what Dean said about Sam using him right away.  I’m really happy to have that misconception cleared, instead of it festering.
• I really wish Jack had touched the blood.  I was interested to see if he would have a vision or something as a result.  In retrospect (cause I didn’t catch that Camille was in The Mentalists until I read the comments) I really like Dean’s line about Mediums as a shout out to her role on a former ep.
• In the 'weird coincidence' file: I just started listening to the podcast Lore and one of the episodes I listed to today right before I watched the SPN episode mentioned revenants. 
• That first shot of Cas calling out in the darkness – I’ve got to hand it to Cas for staying so calm.  I think that’s got to be one of most people’s greatest fear triggers: alone in the dark.  How do you even know which way to walk?  Or that you are walking in a straight line?  Or at all without some sort of visual reference?
• Wow, nice to finally hear how Sam is really feeling.  I don’t think that was just an act for the shrink.  Dean, as only family can do, pushed all the right buttons.  I know Sam’s been trying to maintain his zen and stay positive, especially since he knows Dean is upset and angry and they still need to mind Jack, but I’m glad to get some real emotion out of him and hear some real truth, even if it’s uncomfortable and nonsensical.  (Not that I think it was nonsensical, but I think maybe Dean did.)
• I grinned at Sam stepping over the ‘privacy’ rope.  Those long legs of his wouldn’t be deterred by that at all. 
• I like that the guys checked out Mia’s alibi instead of just shooting her as the most likely suspect.  Other hunters probably wouldn’t have bothered.  But why did she keep a box with Buddy’s pictures in it?  No, sweetie.  That’s not weird at all.
• I’m not quite sure what to make of T-1000 Cas.
• I like that Jack kind of got some closure with ‘Kelly’ also.  That was nice of Mia to do that for him.  Also not quite sure what to make of him saying that mostly he feels nothing.  Maybe still in shock?  But Awww…when he used his powers to save Sam!  And double Awww at the smile when Dean told him he did good.
• Sam honey, we all need you to keep the faith for us.
• Lol – Cas truly is a member of TFW, cause only one of those guys could irritate a cosmic entity so much that it would spit him out back to the pain that is Life.  Dean has taught you well.  You go, Cas!  (I also imagine this is what happened every time Sam and Dean have died wherever they ended up, which is why they will never truly die. ?)

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But how does any of this explain Cas coming back in the same physical body?  That body was destroyed.  I know God magically reconstructed him after Michael exploded him, but it's starting to border on the ridiculous.  It would have made more sense if they'd buried Cas' body on the off chance that maybe Jack could bring him back.  I know...it's not science, it's television.  I need to get over it.

Becoming ridiculous? I think that ship probably sailed years ago, but at the very least, it sailed when they went so far out of the way to put Lucifer back in Nick's body. At this point, my explanation is WIZARDS!! ;)

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I actually forgot this was on last night.  What?  I know; I went from giddy with excitement to forgetting about the show.  That's sad.  I will say that it had Nothing whatsoever to do with the characters, the actors, the story line, or anything to do with the show.  I just lost track of my days.

Heh, that happens to me way too often. Not the forgetting about the show, but getting my days mixed up. 

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

In the 'weird coincidence' file: I just started listening to the podcast Lore and one of the episodes I listed to today right before I watched the SPN episode mentioned revenants. 

I recently subscribed to this podcast, but haven't listened to it yet, but considering the above comment...are you sure you aren't in some elaborate and coincidental dream? ;)

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Lol – Cas truly is a member of TFW, cause only one of those guys could irritate a cosmic entity so much that it would spit him out back to the pain that is Life.  Dean has taught you well.  You go, Cas!  (I also imagine this is what happened every time Sam and Dean have died wherever they ended up, which is why they will never truly die. ?)

Hee!

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Becoming ridiculous? I think that ship probably sailed years ago, but at the very least, it sailed when they went so far out of the way to put Lucifer back in Nick's body. At this point, my explanation is WIZARDS!! ;)

I'm still proud that I called that, LOL

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

It does seem surprising to me that they would attempt to take on The Empty and the Alternate Universe in the same season though.  That's a pretty big undertaking.  I guess we'll have to wait to see whether they manage to do either one of them justice.

Well, since the Empty is basically a completely dark space, maybe not so hard. ;) 

Sorry, but I'm digging in on the burnt wings thing. We need some absolutes in order to accept all the crazy. Dabb is screwing with all of them, and I don't like it. I expect Sam will be the older brother by series end if he is still in charge. 

[Bergamot]

My favorite line of this episode was when Sam burst in to warn them that the therapist was actually a shapeshifter, and Dean said, "Oh, I thought she was just annoying." LOL! Because let's face it, that therapist did a terrible job.

First of all, I loved the way she blithely brushed aside the question  as to whether her grieving patients were ... well, maybe a little disturbed, let's say, when they suddenly encounter their dead loved one. They didn't care, she asserted, because they got to say good-bye. Sure, because of course someone who is struggling enough with grief to seek out therapy, is not going to be at all traumatized by having a shapeshifter appear before them in the form of the dead person, even if they have no experience with the supernatural. As long as they get "closure", it's all good, right?

Second, I couldn't help noticing that her little therapy session with Jack was pretty self-serving. After all, she admits that she is using her patients to help assuage her guilt for her own past actions.  In addition, she knows very little about Jack and even less about Kelly, but somehow she is able to assure him that his mother believed that monsters can be good! Of course his mother did, since as she then tells Jack, this is something that it is important to herself to believe. So telling Jack that this is true and getting his smile and hug in return is exactly what she needs; she doesn't know enough to know if it is what Jack needs.

Third, I disliked how judgmental she was of Dean. Sure, Jack was doing his sad little woobie thing, and Sam was so hurt and overcome by his emotions that he had to walk out of the room, and they both got the therapist's sympathy and smiles. But then there was Dean: rude, angry, striking out at people, even (gasp - the horror!) taking a drink from his flask! And so naturally she was rude and belligerent to him in turn - I mean, how dare he come in and bleed out his trauma all over her nice white room!

Because make no mistake about it, Dean's grieving and trauma were no less deep than anyone's in that room, and all those things that she reacted to with her annoyed little disapproving expressions were signs of it. Something that would be obvious to anyone, not just a therapist. I can't think of anything more traumatizing than to lose your mother at age 4 in a horrible way that totally destroys your chances for a normal life, only to, unbelievably, get her back, then feel rejected by her, and then have her presumably horribly killed again. It would not have been easy or maybe even possible to help Dean, but she definitely didn't want to be bothered. 

I remember the episodes in earlier seasons when Dean and Sam were dealing with their grief over the death of their father, and how I felt both of their reactions were presented sympathetically and in such an authentic way on the show. It is a storyline which remains one of the high points of the whole series for me. But if the current writers can't do a better job of handling such subjects than this poorly written episode, I wish they would stop trying, and just stick to something more simplistic.
 

[catrox14]

I am thinking more about Sam's crappy remark to Dean about John and I am glad that Dean pushed back on Sam about that. I did kind of forget that Dean pushed back because I was so angry about the whole situation. 

Dean was  parentified and compelled to raise Sam. Yes, he loves Sam yet Dean did not ask to be put in that position.  To me, Sam was acting like John by trying to get him to parent Jack when Dean has expressed that he has no interest in doing so. That doesn't make him like John because he won't do it, nor does it mean he's harming Jack by not parenting him. Why doesn't Sam understand this about Dean? Is it because Sam might realize he bit off more than he can chew with Jack?

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

My favorite line of this episode was when Sam burst in to warn them that the therapist was actually a shapeshifter, and Dean said, "Oh, I thought she was just annoying." LOL! Because let's face it, that therapist did a terrible job.

Well, shapeshifters have been shown pretty consistently as being a tad whack-a-doodle so your observations about her whack-a-doodle therapy makes a sort of whack-a-doodle sense to me. ;)

[MysteryGuest]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I like that the guys checked out Mia’s alibi instead of just shooting her as the most likely suspect.  Other hunters probably wouldn’t have bothered.  But why did she keep a box with Buddy’s pictures in it?  No, sweetie.  That’s not weird at all.

As long as I'm apparently in dissecting mode, this is one more thing that bothered me.  The woman is a Shape Shifter, so just how rock solid would her alibi be that she was "seen" by other people at a meeting?  For all Sam and Dean know, the real doctor's body could be shoved in a closet somewhere.  I'm glad I focused more on the A story when watching this because the B story really doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, IMO.

[SueB]

The simplest answer on Cas' form is it's how Cas sees himself.  So when Jack woke "Cas", he woke Cas in the form Cas sees himself.  Which looks about S5 Cas to me (not in knowledge, just physical appearance).

Edited November 4, 2017 by SueB

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

As long as I'm apparently in dissecting mode, this is one more thing that bothered me.  The woman is a Shape Shifter, so just how rock solid would her alibi be that she was "seen" by other people at a meeting?  For all Sam and Dean know, the real doctor's body could be shoved in a closet somewhere.  I'm glad I focused more on the A story when watching this because the B story really doesn't hold up to much scrutiny, IMO.

I get what you're saying, but in that case, she would have had to have left the doctor alive during at least the first kill.

[MysteryGuest]

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I get what you're saying, but in that case, she would have had to have left the doctor alive during at least the first kill.

That makes sense.  I guess I just don't trust Shifters.  Good thing I'm not a hunter...

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

That makes sense.  I guess I just don't trust Shifters.  Good thing I'm not a hunter...

Seems like you have the right instincts, though. Shifters are kinda shifty... . ;)

[Reganne]

I personally loved the episode.  I think I'm liking season 13 more than the last few seasons so far.  I'm glad that Jack is still on board with Sam and that Sam was honest with him.  I also liked seeing the session in therapy and how Sam opened up about how he felt.  He's been pretty zen the last few seasons and has seemed to be holding back on his feelings IMO so it was nice to see it come out.  I also liked the conversation with Dean and Sam at the end of the episode.  I hope we start seeing Dean more back to his usual self and I think we will especially once Cas is back... even if it's not the real Cas that is back.  All in all, I am really looking forward to the rest of this season.

[KirkB]

I'm fine with how the place looks. It's called the Empty, after all. That implies a lack of...well, anything. Otherwise it wouldn't be called Empty. Someone up thread asked why it would even have a floor or gravity, which sounds about right but would be prohibitively expensive to actually do.

That said, I never really thought about angels or demons going somewhere when they died for real. I always figured they just ceased to exist.

Chuck not being able to pull anything out of the Empty or having any real effect on it is okay IMO. He didn't create it. It essentially created him. That said, it doesn't really explain why Jack was able to do it, except for plot of course.

I got the impression Cas was awakened in Jimmy's body because that was the form Jack knew from his mom's memories.

[Harry Potter]

On 11/2/2017 at 6:17 PM, Katy M said:

I thought the shifter therapist looked familiar.  she was Camille in The Mentalists.    

I knew what else I wanted to say.  If some psycho tells you that you have to kill someone else, or he will kill you and he is offering you a gun to do the killing, you say "sure," and then you shoot him.  Unless she was supposed to kill them some other way.  I kind of got the feeling if she said yes, he was just going to hand her the gun.  Making them both idiots.

She is also on the show Van Helsing! 

[mertensia]

I enjoyed this a lot. The bitterness was very very real. 

On the "I am from Madison" side I saw a sign for Waunakee and it can indeed be reached on 19!  So yay! to someone for their research. And hee to Jack relating how the guy ahead of him wanted sauerkraut on his hotdog. 

Man, Mia must be like a celebrity now. "I met the Winchesters and they realized I was a shifter and let me live!" <-  Facebook secret group post.

I loved that Dean told Jack he did well, because, since it came from Dean, Jack would believe it.

[DittyDotDot]

On rewatch I realized I forgot that apparently Jack doesn't give off EMF? Interesting. Granted it very well could be that no one thought about this, but interesting, none-the-less.

[takalotti]

I wasn’t surprised that Dean and Sam didn’t discuss what to do with Mia. They’ve dealt with good monsters before, and Mia demonstrated she was one. She came clean the second Sam outed her, she never tried to hurt them even when under threat, she proved she couldn’t have killed at least one of the victims on their terms, and she helped them take out the bad shifter.

Perhaps a departing, "Okay, here’s the deal. We know you’re cool, so we're all good here. But we’re gonna keep an eye on you in case anything changes. We'll let the other hunters know about you for both reasons: In case they pick up on a shifter around here we don’t want them to shoot first and ask questions later, and it’ll mean more eyes on you in case you change your life plan."

What I REALLY would have liked to see would have been a confused Jack asking Dean about the fact they decided not to kill the one monster, so couldn’t that mean maybe he wouldn’t have to be killed? Even if Dean didn’t answer.

Edited November 4, 2017 by takalotti

[Bessie]

Episodes focused on character have been lacking for a while now and since those types of episodes are in my wheelhouse, it's no surprise that I enjoyed this one.  

• It seems that Jack hasn't yet picked up the Winchester way of communicating so he immediately told Sam what he overheard and didn't know that he was supposed to keep that to himself or lie about it. Atta boy, Jack, for confronting Sam right away on him just using you! Maybe Jack could teach the teachers a thing or two. And Sam's response was pitch perfect. I saw nothing defensive or any excuse-making on Sam's part when called out.  He gently told him the truth and apologized.
• Dean's continued anger and bitterness is so raw and Ackles did not tone it down at all. I could feel Dean's anger. It wasn't pretty and hard to watch, but it felt real. 
• And Sam, opening up enough to finally show his grief and put it into words. I'm so grateful the writers finally allowed this. Will wonders never cease.  I think it's been two episodes in a row now where he's shown some emotion.  I complain about zen Sam, so it's only fair to compliment the writers on emotional Sam. 
• Speaking of past bitching and now having to compliment: They finally allowed Sam to speak, in a very personal way, about his relationship with Mary. I will admit, I never expected them to address it and I sure as hell bitched about it last year, so kudos to the writers for surprising me!  I was shocked they brought up last season and Sam's lack of interaction with Mary. Good to know the show hasn't become completely predictable.
• Sam allowing Dean in to his very private feelings was good for both of them. But, I also think he was right to not allow Dean in, at least for a while, because we all know what happened after John died and Sam wanted to talk about it.  That did not go well for him and he learned from it. Hopefully, he'll learn from this too. Yes, Sam, you can be open with Dean about how you feel, you just have to pick your moments. 
• The grief counseling was the right moment for both of them. At first, I was pissed that the counselor bitched at Dean.  (That is not how grief counseling works, lady!)  But after the episode was over, I realized someone had to get through to Dean about how his anger affected other people and an outsider was a good way to do it. Of course, everyone they know is dead, so an outsider was the only way to do it. That combined with Sam's outburst and Jack's continued (and obvious) adoration of Dean got through to him. Saving Sammy certainly helped!
• Just because Dean is realizing his anger has an impact on those he's taking it out on (not that he didn't before, he just didn't care because of the craziness of grief) doesn't mean he's not allowed to have it. He is absolutely allowed to be angry, bitter and treat Jack like the son of Lucifer that he is.  But he can't go on like that forever, it'll eat him alive.  So maybe, this is a step forward for him.  I hope so. His grief has been tough to watch. 

As for Cas and the empty, meh. I have no idea why they killed him just to resurrect him a couple episodes later.  Why didn't they just toss him into the AU with the rest of them? Maybe they want to come back to the empty at some later, but want him out for now so he can be in a couple episodes. More likely the real Cas is still in the empty. 

[Ria]

Dean continuing to be such a complete douche ruined most of the episode for me. I’ve lost all patience with his constant moody moping self pitying anger. I think it’s obvious he’s mentally ill, which is not his fault. But he needs some meds fast. Abilify worked wonders for my cousin with similar symptoms. He needs to go get some help. Because this is not enjoyable to watch. I’d rather watch Sam and Jack team up and leave Dean behind to sulk. 

The Empty said God had no authority but since Cas has died a few times already and been brought back, wouldn’t God have pulled him out of there before? 

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Ria said:

The Empty said God had no authority but since Cas has died a few times already and been brought back, wouldn’t God have pulled him out of there before? 

Well, maybe Cass wasn't yet in the Empty when he was brought back before? Or, maybe it's not so much that God pulled him out, but asked the Empty to release him? 

I dunno, when big powerful beings start taking about how they're top dog and no one can top them, I tend to think it's just hubris on their part. There's always someone or something bigger.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

On rewatch I realized I forgot that apparently Jack doesn't give off EMF? Interesting. Granted it very well could be that no one thought about this, but interesting, none-the-less.

Do angels give off EMF?  I thought the only things that gave off EMF were ghosts and demons.

 

26 minutes ago, Ria said:

The Empty said God had no authority but since Cas has died a few times already and been brought back, wouldn’t God have pulled him out of there before? 

Chuck also said something about rebuilding Gabriel if they had enough time.  Maybe there are several Cas's in the big empty.  One from when Raphael exploded him in Lucifer rising, one from when Lucifer exploded him in Swan Song, and one from the Leviathan Debacle in Hello Cruel World.  Or, maybe exploding angels doesn't actually kill them?  Maybe they are just billions of little pieces still on earth and just need to be stuck together?  I don't even really know that we know that Cas died after the Leviathans, if you want to get down to it.  He was possessed.  The possessing agents then walked him into a lake or whatever, but an angel wouldn't drown. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Do angels give off EMF?  I thought the only things that gave off EMF were ghosts and demons.

They blow out lights and cause TVs and radios to flicker, just like ghosts and demons. I'd think angels would register something on an EMF detector since they are pure light and light is energy.

[Myrelle]

16 hours ago, Bergamot said:

My favorite line of this episode was when Sam burst in to warn them that the therapist was actually a shapeshifter, and Dean said, "Oh, I thought she was just annoying." LOL! Because let's face it, that therapist did a terrible job.

First of all, I loved the way she blithely brushed aside the question  as to whether her grieving patients were ... well, maybe a little disturbed, let's say, when they suddenly encounter their dead loved one. They didn't care, she asserted, because they got to say good-bye. Sure, because of course someone who is struggling enough with grief to seek out therapy, is not going to be at all traumatized by having a shapeshifter appear before them in the form of the dead person, even if they have no experience with the supernatural. As long as they get "closure", it's all good, right?

Second, I couldn't help noticing that her little therapy session with Jack was pretty self-serving. After all, she admits that she is using her patients to help assuage her guilt for her own past actions.  In addition, she knows very little about Jack and even less about Kelly, but somehow she is able to assure him that his mother believed that monsters can be good! Of course his mother did, since as she then tells Jack, this is something that it is important to herself to believe. So telling Jack that this is true and getting his smile and hug in return is exactly what she needs; she doesn't know enough to know if it is what Jack needs.

Third, I disliked how judgmental she was of Dean. Sure, Jack was doing his sad little woobie thing, and Sam was so hurt and overcome by his emotions that he had to walk out of the room, and they both got the therapist's sympathy and smiles. But then there was Dean: rude, angry, striking out at people, even (gasp - the horror!) taking a drink from his flask! And so naturally she was rude and belligerent to him in turn - I mean, how dare he come in and bleed out his trauma all over her nice white room!

Because make no mistake about it, Dean's grieving and trauma were no less deep than anyone's in that room, and all those things that she reacted to with her annoyed little disapproving expressions were signs of it. Something that would be obvious to anyone, not just a therapist. I can't think of anything more traumatizing than to lose your mother at age 4 in a horrible way that totally destroys your chances for a normal life, only to, unbelievably, get her back, then feel rejected by her, and then have her presumably horribly killed again. It would not have been easy or maybe even possible to help Dean, but she definitely didn't want to be bothered. 

I remember the episodes in earlier seasons when Dean and Sam were dealing with their grief over the death of their father, and how I felt both of their reactions were presented sympathetically and in such an authentic way on the show. It is a storyline which remains one of the high points of the whole series for me. But if the current writers can't do a better job of handling such subjects than this poorly written episode, I wish they would stop trying, and just stick to something more simplistic.
 

Great post!-especially the bolded parts.

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

They blow out lights and cause TVs and radios to flicker, just like ghosts and demons. I'd think angels would register something on an EMF detector since they are pure light and light is energy.

Tht makes sense, but haven't they turned on the EMF around Cas before?  I just can't remember EMF ever pinging for an angel before on this show.  For that matter, what about when Sam was possessed by Gadreel?  Did he never use an EMF that whole half a season?