S03.E06: Vegas With Some Radish

[wilnil]

30 minutes ago, ProudMary said:

About Ella hearing voices, Lucifer seemed very interested.  My mind first went to "No, Harry. Even in the wizarding world, hearing voices isn't a good sign."  :-D
So it made me wonder, what might it mean in the supernatural or celestial world?

Hmmm. Does he let his demons whisper temptations in some mortals' ears? (Probably not; Lucifer seems adamant about not being the cause of people's mortal sins, just their punisher.)

[Bruinsfan]

21 hours ago, johntfs said:

It's still against casino rules and as such considered to be a form of cheating.

But it's using things that EVERY casino customer possesses to some degree: memory and pattern recognition. The casinos are defining "cheating" as being good enough at those basic human abilities to consistently win money rather than lose it. I'm not denying their right to refuse service when they start paying out too much money (same as an all-you-can-eat buffet restaurant can say "enough" to someone who parks in their dining room for three hours and eats continuously), but object strenuously to their definition being used to tarnish a person's character. It's like saying you're cheating to win a sporting competition if you're considerably better than average at that sport.

Now, if they catch someone palming cards or using an earbud and accomplice to cheat, tarnish away.

[CaptainTightpants]

I have to say I am surprised by the number of positive comments about this episode. I thought while watching it that it may be the worst episode of the entire series! 

There were a couple of good moments. Ella hearing voices is an intriguing development. And Lucy's joke about the "penetrating" gift he gave Chloe was genuinely funny. I also enjoy Candy Morningstar, she is a charming character.

But other than that this episode went over like a lead balloon for me. I watched it with a friend and we were both taken aback by how clunky the episode was. 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Bruinsfan said:

But it's using things that EVERY casino customer possesses to some degree: memory and pattern recognition. The casinos are defining "cheating" as being good enough at those basic human abilities to consistently win money rather than lose it. I'm not denying their right to refuse service when they start paying out too much money (same as an all-you-can-eat buffet restaurant can say "enough" to someone who parks in their dining room for three hours and eats continuously), but object strenuously to their definition being used to tarnish a person's character. It's like saying you're cheating to win a sporting competition if you're considerably better than average at that sport.

Now, if they catch someone palming cards or using an earbud and accomplice to cheat, tarnish away.

I'm not saying that it's good or right or fair that casinos do this, I'm just saying that they do this.  Because they do this, Ella is potentially putting her career in jeopardy by defying the ban and counting cards again.

[wilnil]

4 hours ago, johntfs said:

Because they do this, Ella is potentially putting her career in jeopardy by defying the ban and counting cards again.

I'm not sure that would bother her LAPD supervisors much. The "crime" is misdemeanor trespassing, and the casino didn't even press the charge, just kicked them out. If the casino generically claims she was cheating, yeah, that would probably be a more serious theft-by-fraud kind of charge, but it would have the burden of proof on that charge, and there's no proof to be had, because card counting takes place entirely in the gambler's head (and thus couldn't be prosecuted even if it were a crime).

So if the LAPD gets a complaint from the casino, the conversation would likely go:

LAPD supervisor: "What did she do?"

Casino security person: "She trespassed."

"Wait. Aren't you a public venue?"

"Well, yeah, but she's persona non grata here."

"And why's that?"

"She cheats."

"You mean like she slips her own cards into the hands? Do you have video of that?"

"No, she's a card counter."

"Damn, she's that sharp? Just what we need in a forensic investigator. Thanks for the heads-up. We should probably bump her up a grade." 

I think this is why Ella didn't appear at all concerned about any complaint the casino might make.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 11/7/2017 at 10:21 AM, theatremouse said:

I figured this was probably the case given they said they were, I thought, going for an annulment, rather than a divorce. Never consummating is a good way to get an annulment. (I'm oversimplifying, but in TV-logic the one foreshadows the other)

Lucifer said in this episode that they were still married, even though he told the Vegas police that he was her ex-husband.  Confusing.

On 11/7/2017 at 1:14 PM, Writing Wrongs said:

And I was wondering who was with Trixie the whole time.

I'm going to assume it was Maze.

[CheshireCat]

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Lucifer said in this episode that they were still married, even though he told the Vegas police that he was her ex-husband.  Confusing.

 

I don't think it's confusing. Legally, they are still married but they have already filed for annulment and they live separately. I wouldn't refer to the spouse as wife/husband in that case either. I guess, he could have said soon-to-be-ex but that would have required an explanation. Same if he had not mentioned that she was his ex-wife. The police would have wondered why he was living in LA and she in Vegas. Doing it like this was the simplest way. And I also think it has credibility.

[enoughcats]

10 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

On 11/7/2017 at 1:14 PM, Writing Wrongs said:

And I was wondering who was with Trixie the whole time.

I'm going to assume it was Maze.

This wouldn't have needed explaining IF they had given us the four episodes last spring that we were wanting and expecting.  Maze wouldn't have gone missing.

This season, to me, there's been a disjointed feeling.  Not just because we know that they are sandwiching in four episodes that weren't made along with the others.

This show's first two seasons have had a good feel of advancing story lines and character happening as plausibly as possible with the given parts of the story.

To me this season has jumped around like a hyperactive three year old.  

Candy's story deserved to be closer to Candy's first appearance.

Wonder what order the Season 3 DVD will use?

[ItCouldBeWorse]

34 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

This wouldn't have needed explaining IF they had given us the four episodes last spring that we were wanting and expecting.  Maze wouldn't have gone missing.

This season, to me, there's been a disjointed feeling.  Not just because we know that they are sandwiching in four episodes that weren't made along with the others.

This show's first two seasons have had a good feel of advancing story lines and character happening as plausibly as possible with the given parts of the story.

To me this season has jumped around like a hyperactive three year old.  

Candy's story deserved to be closer to Candy's first appearance.

Wonder what order the Season 3 DVD will use?

This may have been the best way to deal with Lesley Brandt's maternity leave, though.  No matter when the episode was aired, though, it would have been nice to show Chloe calling Maze to say she'd be out late, so could Maze stay in with Trixie.  Or when Dan showed up, he could say that he dropped Trixie back home with Maze before coming over.  OR maybe this was Friday night (I hope so, considering the amount of drinking they all did, and Trixie was on a sleepover, as johntfs suggested.) Writers frequently forget that viewers, especially parents, are going to think of this.  Sometimes, it ruins belief in a show, (eg The Blacklist).

[Loandbehold]

The potential problem w/ Ella's card counting and being bounced from at least one casino could occur when she testifies in court. Cheating, or "cheating" at cards in a casino could be used to impugn her credibility on the stand. The defense attorney could ask if she does this, why wouldn't she also manipulate the evidence to get a result that points at the defendant. Maybe stretching things, but that might cause one juror to discount her testimony.

[Bruinsfan]

She could easily reply "the casino regards having a good memory as cheating. Do you think having one makes me less likely to be correct about evidence?"

[ProudMary]

Building off @enoughcats' post above, we know about the four stand alone episodes being mixed in with the actual S3 episodes because we are dedicated fans of the show, read about it online and discuss it here on PTV.  What about more casual fans?  They must be confused!  I sure would be.  Far from the best way to draw in new viewers.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 11/10/2017 at 1:09 PM, Loandbehold said:

The potential problem w/ Ella's card counting and being bounced from at least one casino could occur when she testifies in court. Cheating, or "cheating" at cards in a casino could be used to impugn her credibility on the stand. The defense attorney could ask if she does this, why wouldn't she also manipulate the evidence to get a result that points at the defendant. Maybe stretching things, but that might cause one juror to discount her testimony.

 

On 11/10/2017 at 1:41 PM, Bruinsfan said:

She could easily reply "the casino regards having a good memory as cheating. Do you think having one makes me less likely to be correct about evidence?"

She could, but the seed has been planted.  The prosecution wants to avoid that seed in the first place, since they have the burden of proof.  The defense could also intimate that she is a heavy gambler and that might negatively influence members of the jury against her, even if gambling is perfectly legal (and even though she usually wins). You want your witnesses'  testimony to be evaluated on their credentials and professional reputation, not on extraneous background information.

Edited November 12, 2017 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Raja]

1 hour ago, ProudMary said:

Building off @enoughcats' post above, we know about the four stand alone episodes being mixed in with the actual S3 episodes because we are dedicated fans of the show, read about it online and discuss it here on PTV.  What about more casual fans?  They must be confused!  I sure would be.  Far from the best way to draw in new viewers.

Confused about what? The casual fan only cares about the case of the week and doesn't mind missing the continuing soap or intricate world building 

[ProudMary]

12 minutes ago, Raja said:

Confused about what? The casual fan only cares about the case of the week and doesn't mind missing the continuing soap or intricate world building 

If they're starting to get interested in say, the Sinnerman plot line, they'd be wondering why nothing's been mentioned about it for a few weeks.  We know why.  Hey, your opinion's valid too.  I just think the random insertion of the stand alone episodes is a negative for ratings.

[CheshireCat]

2 hours ago, ProudMary said:

If they're starting to get interested in say, the Sinnerman plot line, they'd be wondering why nothing's been mentioned about it for a few weeks.  We know why.  Hey, your opinion's valid too.  I just think the random insertion of the stand alone episodes is a negative for ratings.

But if memory serves, the episode before this one was a new one and it wasn't touching on it either. It's just the way TV shows are done. One establishes an enemy and then goes back to it throughout the season but not in each and every episode.

[Philip]

For the life of me I can't stand Lopez, she did look good on that dress but her lines and attempt at being funny are just so utter cringey every single time. I only remember her as "the sister of Angel from Dexter." and that's it. Now, for comparison's sake, Chloe's daughter can be funny and she doesn't even try, it just comes naturally.

 

I wish they hadn't hired her for the show or at least that they kept it to a minimum.

[jhlipton]

On 11/6/2017 at 6:35 PM, DEL901 said:

Luci in a red Snuggie

I loved how, when he stood up, it became a Cardinal's robe.

On 11/7/2017 at 3:23 PM, Helena Dax said:

And that last shot was beautiful, she in white, he in black. Symbolic, I guess.

Speaking of "black and white", Chloe was dressed as Tom Cruise in "Risky Business" -- was Linda's black outfit from any show or movie?

[Mabinogia]

Are they now actively trying to destroy Chloe as a character? First, why the fuck is she crying over Lucy leaving her on her birthday but doesn't seem to give a shit about not spending her birthday with her daughter? Mother of the year that one. Then, they (or the actress) have her acting like a drug addict who needs a fix. She's all jittery and pacing and the stringy hair hanging all over the place, etc. If I didn't know the show I'd think she was a drug addict. Still don't get her appeal at all. 

I do enjoy when they mix up the characters, so Luci and Ella were the highlight of the episode for me. I like her frantic energy bouncing off his causal calm. And Dr. Linda is about the only thing that can make Chloe tolerable for me at this point because Dr. Linda makes everybody better. 

This show is losing me. These stand alone eps aren't helping since I don't watch this for the procedural side but for the angelic storyline. 

I am getting pretty sick of all the fun, interesting characters being forced to pimp the ship. If the writers have to push that hard to get us on board, then it's clear even they don't buy Luci and Chloe as an organic couple. 

Edited November 12, 2017 by Mabinogia

[johntfs]

4 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Are they now actively trying to destroy Chloe as a character? First, why the fuck is she crying over Lucy leaving her on her birthday but doesn't seem to give a shit about not spending her birthday with her daughter? Mother of the year that one. Then, they (or the actress) have her acting like a drug addict who needs a fix. She's all jittery and pacing and the stringy hair hanging all over the place, etc. If I didn't know the show I'd think she was a drug addict. Still don't get her appeal at all.

I think it's more that Chloe is almost always a good mother, good cop, good, calm rational person who is the adult in the room.  This day, her birthday, is one of the few days she allows for herself to be a "bad mom/bad cop/bad, irresponsible person."  She'd been looking forward to getting her Lucifer on, hanging out with him and Linda having fun, being "bad."  And then he fucks off again without saying anything.  Chloe considers Lucifer to be her partner and friend, so it hurt.  

Edited November 13, 2017 by johntfs

[White Sheep]

Good episode.  It was Different.

Both candy and Ella need to get a tan.   They are so pale.

Questions I have about this episode: 

Ella voices?  My guess on what they say or are from?

Voices from a God?

Voices from the dead victims she work with?

Voices telling her to do bad things?

Voices telling her to do good things?

 

Would not Lucy be mad if they drilled open Lucy penthouse safe?  By the way that was a lousey safe.   More like a strong box than a safe  

 

Who was watching Trixie if mom and Dad was passed out drunk in Lucy penthouse?  

 

Did lucy just help Will S. with that one play or many of his plays?   Did he show him who he really was?    Either way that means he left he’ll for earth BEFORE?  How often does that happen and why did he leave it that time?  

Edited November 16, 2017 by White Sheep

[Lugal]

On 11/16/2017 at 7:15 AM, White Sheep said:

Both candy and Ella need to get a tan.   They are so pale.

This was one filmed in Vancouver.  Also the rain in Vegas was a dead giveaway.

 

On 11/16/2017 at 7:15 AM, White Sheep said:

Ella voices?  My guess on what they say or are from?

I'm really curious to see where this goes.

On 11/16/2017 at 7:15 AM, White Sheep said:

Who was watching Trixie if mom and Dad was passed out drunk in Lucy penthouse?

I assume she was with grandma Penelope.

On 11/16/2017 at 7:15 AM, White Sheep said:

Did lucy just help Will S. with that one play or many of his plays?   Did he show him who he really was?    Either way that means he left he’ll for earth BEFORE?  How often does that happen and why did he leave it that time?

There are all the old stories of him leaving Hell to make his deals with people.

[Loandbehold]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:15 AM, White Sheep said:

Did lucy just help Will S. with that one play or many of his plays?   Did he show him who he really was?

This makes me wonder what Will S's version of hell is. Is it an eternity of listening to his critics and those who say that he didn't write any/all of the plays? Or, possibly the rulers that he made fun of or called weak just to curry favor w/ the current King/Queen/Prince(ss)? Maybe awfully acted and/or staged productions. Or some of the modernized adaptations.

[johntfs]

21 minutes ago, Loandbehold said:

This makes me wonder what Will S's version of hell is. Is it an eternity of listening to his critics and those who say that he didn't write any/all of the plays? Or, possibly the rulers that he made fun of or called weak just to curry favor w/ the current King/Queen/Prince(ss)? Maybe awfully acted and/or staged productions. Or some of the modernized adaptations.

Who says he ended up in Hell?  Assuming Lucifer has made a few sojourns out of Hell prior to taking his extended LA "vacation" he might well have met many people, good and bad.  Assuming the Bible is still basically the Bible in the show's universe, there's a scene where the Devil meets and tempts Jesus.  Granted that as far as well know, Jesus didn't give Lucifer an autograph, but they presumably interacted without Jesus ending up in Hell (to stay, anyway.  Perhaps Jesus still paid the place a visit even in this show's universe...)

[theatremouse]

On 11/20/2017 at 10:14 AM, johntfs said:

Who says he ended up in Hell? 

If the implication is that Lucifer wrote some of the plays for him, it suggests they met on Earth, and Will S made a deal with the devil, which would in turn suggest after death he'd go to hell.

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, theatremouse said:

If the implication is that Lucifer wrote some of the plays for him, it suggests they met on Earth, and Will S made a deal with the devil, which would in turn suggest after death he'd go to hell.

So is Linda going to Hell?  She made a deal with Lucifer at the beginning of the show.  "I'll give you fun sexy times if you give me therapy." 

In any case I doubt Shakespeare would have given Lucifer a personalized autograph if he feared eternal damnation because he'd sold his soul to the Devil.  It's more likely that Lucifer acted more as a muse for Shakespeare and gave him a few writing pointers, perhaps introducing him to some important people in London would helped him with finances.  You know, the kind of thing Lucifer pretty much does for people now.

[White Sheep]

On 11/22/2017 at 0:37 AM, johntfs said:

So is Linda going to Hell?  She made a deal with Lucifer at the beginning of the show.  "I'll give you fun sexy times if you give me therapy." 

In any case I doubt Shakespeare would have given Lucifer a personalized autograph if he feared eternal damnation because he'd sold his soul to the Devil.  It's more likely that Lucifer acted more as a muse for Shakespeare and gave him a few writing pointers, perhaps introducing him to some important people in London would helped him with finances.  You know, the kind of thing Lucifer pretty much does for people now.

I think he just showed up.  Will S. Knew who he was right away.  We know Will one smart cookie (even dr who could not fool him)  And they did a little non-going to hell writing.   That my take on it.  Will S. Did not sell his soul to Lucy and is NOT in hell.  

Can Lucy make you confess if you are NOT seeing in person or does tv and some nice shades defuse his power in that area?  

Edited December 11, 2017 by White Sheep

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, White Sheep said:

Can Lucy make you confess if you are NOT seeing in person or does tv and some nice shades defuse his power in that area?

Yes, it likely defuses it.  I'll elaborate in "The Sinnerman" thead.

Edited December 11, 2017 by johntfs

[emarasmoak]

I have just been re-watching this today and noticed that Candy also said that she never lies, she just bluffs. I went to the "Candy Morningstar" episode and checked all her dialogues. And I think that if she's planning to open a juice bar and a tanning salon, she's right, she didn't lie to any of the characters. She told Charlotte that she had Lucifer's back. And that she did. Lovely.

I liked Lucifer's soft voice during his conversation with Candy at the end of this episode. She is someone he can trust and he cares about a lot. I like her.

I liked that Luci was not bothered that his friends trashed his home partying and that he would have wanted to be there for the fun.

And that last scene with Chloe was touching and very true to the characters. I also liked that Lucifer kept the painting that he got saving Chloe's life. Hanging in his room.

LOL at Chloe doing a Risky Business dance (remember that Rebecca de Mornay, the actress playing Mama Decker, was there?).

My take on William Shakespeare is that Luci made him bisexual and was his muse.

Edited January 11, 2019 by emarasmoak

[BigBlueMastiff]

God, Chloe is a bore, and German is awful, please send her back to Chicago Fire, where I never have to see her again.

[galaxychaser]

Luci can’t penetrate Chloe 🤣🤣🤣. Luci in a Snuggie eating ice cream and wine ! I hate Ella. She acts like a 12 year old girl. I agree where is Trixxie? Mom and dad and Linda drinking? Who is taking care of Trixxie? No Maze...