S01.E06: Lethe

[Biggie B]

Tilly is growing on me with each episode. At first, I thought, "Oh no - she's going to stumble and fumble her way all over the place and be a total hindrance," but that has not been the case at all. Clearly, she's very competent at what she does. And she's really improving socially. I love how she kicked Michael in order to "remind" Michael to shake Ash's hand. And even when she says something slightly off-kilter, she immediately realizes it and self-corrects. Also, Michael is never offended by or annoyed with her. I also like that Tilly wants to learn from Michael and is willingly accepting of Michael's advice and mentorship. Tilly's ambitious but not in a ruthless, crush-everyone-else sort of way. She sees that Michael has a lot to offer, so she's taking it and running with it (literally). 

That last scene between Michael and Sarek in sickbay was great. You better believe they'll talk about this later! 

Stamets cracked me up - he is just tripping 24/7 now, wheeee! 

[paigow]

Archer got his hands on Holodeck Technology. I forget which aliens created it, but Archer used it as a bargaining chip to avoid combat with a different group of aliens..... 

[2727]

Are we to believe that Discovery spore-jumped to aid Sarek, or was that normal warp?

If Stamets is still powering the spores off-screen, I hope Culber is monitoring his physical and mental health. Not that baked Stamets isn't fun, but I worry. (Which is a huge turnaround since I couldn't stand him a few episodes ago. The matching pajamas convinced me.)

[Joimiaroxeu]

I guess I'm a dissenter on the Disco shirts. Too cutesy and obvious AFAIC. Are the producers maybe feeling a little threatened by the airiness of The Orville?

That's rough when you're in bed in post-coital bliss and your lover pulls a gun on you. For a second or two I thought I was watching a Bond movie.

It was a tough sell for me at first but I think I'm settling in and enjoying this show. Burnham and Lorca are fascinating.

[CanadaPhil]

20 minutes ago, 2727 said:

Are we to believe that Discovery spore-jumped to aid Sarek, or was that normal warp?

 

Anytime you see the visual and auditory ALERT going on in the background is a cue that they are about to, or have just Spore-Jumped. (I think of it more like Dune style Folding-Space)

 

PS: I don't know if anyone has noticed but the "Alert" font/graphic appears to be the exact one used in visual representations right from TMP and the Wrath of Khan movies... but it was bright red then.

(It's a very small, but nice little touch that links our stories together in a way)

Edited October 24, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[CanadaPhil]

Another one of my speculations... We are seeing a MIRROR Lorca!

I have a whole set of reasons I won't get into right now, but I think the "real" one perished along with the crew of the Buran.

;)

And this makes him even more fascinating!

This may be a stretch but everytime we see someone gazing into a mirror... or seeing their reflection (as we did in this episode with Lorca seeing himself in the port glass...almost as if gazing back at himself!!) is a meant to be a hint of the MIRROR Universe.

Edited October 24, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[2727]

It was nice to see Lorca* in an age-appropriate sexual relationship.

 

 

* i.e., any middle-aged man on TV or the movies.

[Colorado David]

51 minutes ago, 2727 said:

It was nice to see Lorca* in an age-appropriate sexual relationship.

 

 

* i.e., any middle-aged man on TV or the movies.

agreed. like age appropriate relationships, refreshing on mainstream TV.  who remembers the admiral from Chicago Hope??? ME!!!!

question tho, Discovery has the spore drive, how did the Admiral get to them so quickly? were they not that far away?

Edited October 24, 2017 by Colorado David

[tennisgurl]

I really liked this one, I think the show is getting better and better. Its definitely different than past Star Treks, but its working more for me. 

 I love Tilly and Michael becoming friends, with Michael mentoring Tilly and Tilly bringing out the more playful side of Michael. Also, those judgmental replicators were killing me! Its like when my phone buzzes to remind me that I haven't gotten my steps in for the day. Put me on Team Disco Shirts. One of my big complaints about the show early on was how self serious it was, so its nice to see them have a bit more fun and be a little silly. 

Stamets being all blissed out on spores was both hilarious and a bit creepy. I especially loved the bemused expressions on Michael and Lorcas faces while talking to him. Like, Lorca can deal with Stamets being angry and snarky, but this? This is just weird. 

Lorca might be a total mess, but I dont really think Cornwall was in the right to try to bench him for being jumpy. I mean, the guy was captured and tortured, like, a week ago. Of course he gets jumpy and sleeps with a phaser. Even beyond that, he is leading the biggest ship on the front line of a major conflict, personally I think it would be stupid NOT to have a firearm with you all the time, just in case Klingons infiltrate the ship. Which happens pretty frequently in Star Trek. Yeah Lorca is clearly suffering from some sort of PTSD, but he seems to be doing his job, and its not like they can put the war on hold to get everyone to therapy. Besides, she was the one who slept with her friend to evaluate his mental health, AND she is his superior officer anyway. Granted, him purposefully not rescuing her would be pretty messed up, but I dont think he purposefully sent her into a trap. 

I hope the fan theory about Ash is wrong, I like him and see a lot of potential in his character. 

I liked getting more into Michael relationship with Sarek, and I really like the look of Vulcan. When Michael was all upset about being a disappointment, I was like "Dont worry Michael. Just wait until another one of Sareks kids kidnaps a bunch of senators, steals a starship, and flies around the universe trying to find God. Your going to look like the freaking golden child". 

[MissLucas]

21 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Put me on Team Disco Shirts. One of my big complaints about the show early on was how self serious it was, so its nice to see them have a bit more fun and be a little silly. 
 

I hope the fan theory about Ash is wrong, I like him and see a lot of potential in his character.

I feel so tempted to order a DISCO shirt. I've been slacking a bit with my work-out recently and could use a morale booster. Too bad it does not say VERY on the back.

I like Ash too - if that theory is wrong it would be an epic misdirect. Either way his arc is intriguing.

[CanadaPhil]

42 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

....

I like Ash too - if that theory is wrong it would be an epic misdirect. Either way his arc is intriguing.

The way the showrunners are practically beating us over the head with it now suggests they are sucking us in for a really big "rope-a-dope" instead.

Case in point: in the last episode when Lorca is rhyming off Ash's positive qualifications he literally ends off with "... and you fight like a KLINGON" !!!!

 

Really!? Geeez, C'mon!

hahahahaha.

Edited October 24, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[dwmarch]

On 23/10/2017 at 10:44 AM, that one guy said:

Admiral Cornwall  - worst excuse for a booty call ever.

However, correct me if I'm wrong, I am pretty sure she's the first Admiral to get laid in Star Trek.

[tpel]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I hope the fan theory about Ash is wrong, I like him and see a lot of potential in his character.

Even if the fan theory is right, that need not short-circuit his potential. Suppose Ash is Voq -- meaning something like Voq underwent genetic transformation and acquired memories and knowledge from the real Ash Tyler. Let's assume he is currently unaware of his true identity. At some point, he is "activated" and learns who he really is . . . then what? It is at least conceivable that he would rebel against his "true" identity and side with the humans he has become friends with. Or, at least, he might be seriously conflicted.

[2727]

Shit, maybe Tilly is Voq.

The show can't build a set for everything, but I'd hope a starship would have an indoor running track. Burnham and Tilly in the corridors reminded me of power walking at the mall.

[starri]

2 hours ago, 2727 said:

The show can't build a set for everything,

According to After Trek, the jogging scenes took 8 hours to shoot because the hallway set is so short, they had to go about ten seconds at a time.

That said, I loved the shot from the outside of the ship looking in on them.  For a ship that I thought was so ugly when they first revealed it, they make it look gorgeous on screen.

[tennisgurl]

I almost wonder if Lorca is specifically finding a crew full of messed up people with dark pasts, or noticeable quirks. He has Paul, who is a borderline mad scientist who is bitter about being there, Tilly who is all quirk and ambition, Saru is genetically preconditioned to be afraid of everything, Ash is a recently freed POW, and Michael is just generally a mess of regret and identity issues who has been branded Starfleets first mutineer. Granted, the doctor seems pretty well adjusted, and we dont know the rest of the command crew very well, but I wouldn't be too surprising if they have their own issues. 

[Kelda Feegle]

In the voice of HAL - "I'm afraid I cannot allow you that number of calories."

[CanadaPhil]

1 hour ago, Kelda Feegle said:

In the voice of HAL - "I'm afraid I cannot allow you that number of calories."

If the replicator starts singing "Daisy Bell" they are in real trouble.

Edited October 25, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[Kelda Feegle]

Imagine if it turned into the Talky Toaster from Red Dwarf. 

[paigow]

This is Alan Tudyk...not... Anthony Rapp.

No wonder the Discovery reminds me of the Serenity....

Edited October 25, 2017 by paigow

[paigow]

14 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I almost wonder if Lorca is specifically finding a crew full of messed up people with dark pasts, or noticeable quirks.

Seems like this is The Dirty Dozen crossed with Pirates Of The Caribbean. Spores = Compass 

Edited October 25, 2017 by paigow

[paigow]

21 hours ago, CanadaPhil said:

This may be a stretch but everytime we see someone gazing into a mirror... or seeing their reflection (as we did in this episode with Lorca seeing himself in the port glass...almost as if gazing back at himself!!) is a meant to be a hint of the MIRROR Universe.

This "Ash" is NOT Voq...he is Ash!Mirror..Or else this is some kind of Avatar / Source Code mind control technology of a different physical body...

[tpel]

20 hours ago, 2727 said:

It was nice to see Lorca* in an age-appropriate sexual relationship.

* i.e., any middle-aged man on TV or the movies.

I did like that. The lighting seemed designed to enhance the appearance of age and vulnerability. I think it worked well most of the time. Seeing the lines around Cornwell's eyes made her comments about how young they were back in the day feel more compelling, and she looked beautiful. The close-ups of Lorca's face were less brightly lit, maybe to emphasize that he lives in the shadows now. Though Jason Isaacs with his shirt off is definitely not a bad thing, they weren't going for sexy in that scene. His damage was being uncovered, exposed . . . yet there was something about his body language that suggested that his shields were still up. The only time when the lighting choices didn't work for me was when Cornwell was reaching out and touching the scars on Lorca's back -- the lighting magnified the texture of her hand so that it almost seemed corpse-like. 

1 hour ago, paigow said:

This is Alan Tudyk...not... Anthony Rapp.

No wonder the Discovery reminds me of the Serenity....

I got a flash of "Wash" when Stammets said that he had always wanted to talk to his mushrooms, and I've been seeing more of him in goofy spore-stoned Stammets.

[CanadaPhil]

^^

It was that scene that convinced me that we are dealing with a MIRROR Lorca.

I won't get into my whole theory now, but here are just two more puzzle pieces....

Cornwell recognizes 1 of those scars on his back but seems mystified by the other... and that point is emphasized when she makes several comments while on her way out along the lines of "you are not the man I used to know"...and "I hate that I cannot tell if this is the real you".

I just luv the intricate story that the showrunners are weaving in this new Trek!! 

Edited October 25, 2017 by CanadaPhil

[DrBriCa]

22 minutes ago, CanadaPhil said:

^^

It was that scene that convinced me that we are dealing with a MIRROR Lorca.

I won't get into my whole theory now, but here are just two more puzzle pieces....

Cornwell recognizes 1 of those scars on his back but seems mystified by the other... and that point is emphasized when she makes several comments while on her way out along the lines of "you are not the man I used to know"...and "I hate that I cannot tell if this is the real you".

I just luv the intricate story that the showrunners are weaving in this new Trek!! 

I wonder then if Mirror Lorca had a connection with the Mirror Burnham, which may be why he's so fascinated with this universe's Burnham!

[CanadaPhil]

^^^^^

Ding!... ding!.... ding!

:D

[tpel]

^^ I really hope it is not MIRROR Lorca, as I find the PTSD narrative more interesting. But I agree that some of Cornwell's lines are odd, and the writers dropping hints about a mirror universe (or some kind of brainwashing or replacement) would explain that. What I mean is, what kind of shrink complains that someone is "not the man I used to know"? Of course he is not like he used to be. He killed his entire crew and was tortured at least once. Getting back to the way he used to be is a futile goal; what we want is to create a healthy, functional "new normal". Granted, Cornwell just got grabbed by the throat and had a phaser pointed in her face, so I'll give her a pass for not really thinking like a therapist at that moment. 

Logistically, I can buy MIRROR Stammets better than MIRROR Lorca, because a massive personality change after getting up-close-and-personal with freaky spores seems more indicative of some kind of inter-dimensional swap than does a personality change following multiple traumas, without any obvious swapping mechanism.

[CanadaPhil]

27 minutes ago, tpel said:

....He killed his entire crew...

That's the current narrative, but I don't think that will actually turn out to be true at all. 

We don't even know Lorca's real backstory yet.

[paigow]

56 minutes ago, CanadaPhil said:

That's the current narrative, but I don't think that will actually turn out to be true at all. 

We don't even know Lorca's real backstory yet.

Mirror!Lorca ended up in command of Prime!Buran...freaked out...decided to kill everybody so he could get a clean slate...Prime!Lorca has probably been assassinated already...

[maddie965]

I'm totally in love with this new incarnation of Star Trek. Wish we could have the whole season to binge-watch... Most of all, I'm fascinated by Jason Isaacs as Lorca. That's some amazing talent at play there! Both from the actor and the writers. Love everything about that character!!! Shady as hell, sexy as hell, dangerous as hell.

Two things are giving me a headache, though:

- In the episode we met our new favorite couple, Stammets leaves the  bathroom, and then we see another Stammets on the mirror. Does that mean there are two Stammets aboard the Discovery now? If so, which one were we watching in the last episode? Or does that scene mean there's another Stammets in the mirror?

- This is worst. I guess I must have really misunderstood the ending of the episode, because no one is talking about this here. When Cornwell is fighting the Klingons, I got the impression she tried to use her phaser, but it didn't work - she looks surprised for a second there. Then, when we see Lorca alone in the last scene, they show us a weapon on his back. I thought it was the Admiral's weapon, that he had stolen, so she would be defenseless against the Klingons. I also thought I saw a smile in his reflection, indicating that things were going exactly as he planned - meaning, he did intend for Cornwell to be captured, and was happy it happened.

Am I completely mistaken here?

[CanadaPhil]

18 minutes ago, maddie965 said:

.....Two things are giving me a headache, though:

......Does that mean there are two Stammets aboard the Discovery now? ......

.....When Cornwell is fighting the Klingons, I got the impression she tried to use her phaser....

Am I completely mistaken here?

Hey Maddie,

I think the mirror scene was to convey to us (the audience) that there are two alternate realities and the mirror Universe's loopy Stamets has somehow crossed over and replaced anal-retentive Stamets.

I believe Cornwell was actually going for a communicator to signal distress. Remember this is pre-TOS Trek so they are still using the hand held devices and not TNG style finger taps on a badge. As she was a acting as envoy I don't think Cornwell was actually armed.

[that one guy]

9 hours ago, CanadaPhil said:

10 hours ago, tpel said:

....He killed his entire crew...

That's the current narrative, but I don't think that will actually turn out to be true at all. 

We don't even know Lorca's real backstory yet.

We only have his word for this. Maybe it's true. Maybe they're still alive. Maybe Lorca died too and this is "not the man I used to know." Maybe he's possessed. Maybe the ship is bringing an ancient evil back with it every time it travels through the Mushroom space. Maybe it's really going to Onion space. Is there a Garlic Dimension?

Quote

 Then, when we see Lorca alone in the last scene, they show us a weapon on his back. I thought it was the Admiral's weapon, that he had stolen, so she would be defenseless against the Klingons.

I think that was the same phaser he keeps under his pillow. He did mean for her to be captured. I don't think he's Mirror Universe, only because it would be weird to have a character be a doppelganger when we've never met the original. There's no real point to that, just make him evil. Stamets, though - boy he's not the same character at all this episode, so if he hasn't been swapped out, he's possessed by an alien intelligence or something. But that's - not the same guy he was in eps 3-5.

Edited October 26, 2017 by that one guy

[tpel]

As an alternative to the MIRROR Lorca hypothesis, here is another interpretation of the fact that we are often presented with scenes of him staring out the window, with his reflection visible. Friedrich Nietzsche wrote, "Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster . . . for when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." He's been fighting monsters and staring at the abyss a long time, and it is staring back hard (in one of his first scenes, we see what looks like space with a scattering of stars reflected in his eyes); he is in danger of losing his humanity. Obviously, this is not counter-evidence to a mirror universe twist. I just wanted to consider how the imagery we've been shown could be making a metaphorical point about the character rather than dropping hints about his origin. 

Thinking about the preview, I'm a bit surprised that they are bringing Mudd back so quickly. Looks like we've got a time loop going, so that frees the writers to do some dramatic things without fear of lasting repercussions. 

[Zuleikha]

This is worst. I guess I must have really misunderstood the ending of the episode, because no one is talking about this here. When Cornwell is fighting the Klingons, I got the impression she tried to use her phaser, but it didn't work - she looks surprised for a second there. Then, when we see Lorca alone in the last scene, they show us a weapon on his back. I thought it was the Admiral's weapon, that he had stolen, so she would be defenseless against the Klingons. I also thought I saw a smile in his reflection, indicating that things were going exactly as he planned - meaning, he did intend for Cornwell to be captured, and was happy it happened.

That was what I thought, too. There was definitely a moment where she tried to do something and it didn't work.

I don't think Lorca is anyone other than Lorca, but I do think there's weird stuff going on with this timeline. It's been a long time since I was actively engaged with Star Trek, but isn't it canon in Prime that Romulans created and were the first empire to have cloaking technology? 

If Ash is not Voq, I will be very sad. He's an interesting character as Voq. But if he's just Ash, I'll be pissed off that Landry was killed to open a role for him. I'm actually still pretty pissed that Landry was killed, especially in such a stupid way, because I thought she was a good character to have.

[RobertDeSneero]

On 10/23/2017 at 4:28 PM, KimberStormer said:

Getting more and more Star Trekky by the episode, so that's good.  I must resign myself to the strange conviction, shared by all Star Trek writers since DS9, that Vulcans,  once a progressive nerd's ideal, are now Always Space Racist and, good god, can't even come up with better names for things than "Logic Extremist".

Did you ever hear of the Diane Duane novel Spock's World?

[KimberStormer]

I've heard of it -- I think my sister owned it!  But I've never read it.  Are they Space Racist in that?

[Ceindreadh]

4 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Did you ever hear of the Diane Duane novel Spock's World?

Slightly off topic but if you ever get a chance to go to a convention where she and her husband Peter  Morwood are guests at, grab it with  both hands because they are most entertaining and hilarious panellists. 

[aemom]

I have to say that I recall Amanda with blonde hair in TOS, and when I saw her in this episode,  I was trying to figure out who this other human was.

Mia Kirschner did a good job, but I wasn't able to fully concentrate on the scenes because I was puzzled. 

Maybe I expect too much for wanting some continuity.

Still love Tilly, and there was no follow up on why there are 2 Stamets now.

Still can't shake my spidey sense that Ash is not what he appears to be. Strikes me as being too much the perfect and dutiful soldier. 

I thought that Lorca was going to kill Cornwell in his room or blow up the shuttle.  Once she was captured,  I knew she was a goner. The man has antifreeze in his veins.

Edited October 27, 2017 by AEMom
Typo

[paigow]

Winona Ryder was "Alternate Abrams" Amanda, so Mia Kirschner (Naked!Mandy!24) fits with the most recent audience experience - canon be damned!

9 minutes ago, AEMom said:

I have to say that I recall Amanda with blonde hair in TOS, and when I saw her in this episode,  I was trying to figure out who this other human was.

[aemom]

2 minutes ago, paigow said:

Winona Ryder was "Alternate Abrams" Amanda, so Mia Kirschner (Naked!Mandy!24) fits with the most recent audience experience - canon be damned!

You're right. I had forgotten all about Winona Ryder. My husband still hasn't forgiven JJ for blowing her and the entire planet of Vulcan up.

[CanadaPhil]

8 minutes ago, AEMom said:

You're right. I had forgotten all about Winona Ryder....

She was in and out of that movie like a sneaky shoplifter.

Yes, l'm goin to Hell.

;P

[tpel]

3 hours ago, AEMom said:

I have to say that I recall Amanda with blonde hair in TOS, and when I saw her in this episode,  I was trying to figure out who this other human was.

I'm confused. In the TOS episode Journey to Babel she had gray hair. How can we know what color her hair was before it went gray? 

[aemom]

3 hours ago, tpel said:

I'm confused. In the TOS episode Journey to Babel she had gray hair. How can we know what color her hair was before it went gray? 

Hmm. I was surprised by your post so I looked for more photos and  zoomed in and it seems to be a mix - lots of grey with some blonde left.

I guess I was remembering it to be light and not dark colored,  but it was in fact more grey than blonde. 

[tpel]

Many women dye their hair lighter than their natural color as they get older, too. My Mom had brown hair in her youth, then went blondish, then blond-to-gray. I'm sure Sarek would find all this highly illogical, so Amanda just doesn't bother discussing such things with him ;-)

[Lokiberry]

1 hour ago, AEMom said:

Hmm. I was surprised by your post so I looked for more photos and  zoomed in and it seems to be a mix - lots of grey with some blonde left.

I guess I was remembering it to be light and not dark colored,  but it was in fact more grey than blonde. 

Jane Wyatt's hair was naturally dark, which has nothing to do with what Amanda was doing with hers. I guess only her Vulcan hairdresser knows for sure.

[paigow]

Even Deadpool would be confused by so many Sarek / Amanda iterations....

[Lebanna]

On that note, there's the fact that dark-eyed Spock has two quite light blue eyed parents in this iteration. I guess Vulcan genetics really are different. Either that, or he'll do a Kirk and have magic color changed eyes, if a version of him ever shows up again on here. 

Actually, if they are doing the mirror universe, maybe we could just run into the Mirror TOS crew members at some point.

I'm wondering if the Mirror U is actually going to hit the fan properly next season. They still have to win the war, maybe they cross over and spend some time there and work out something vital to beat the Klingons with.

Since everyone is normally evil in the Mirror and good Over Here, it would explain why Stamets seems to have got nicer if he's been taken over by his Mirror double - maybe whatever you are, you're the opposite (although with beardy Spock it was pretty subtle). Maybe Mirror Michael is a relaxed open book, Mirror Saru is a fearless warrior and Mirror Lorca bakes cupcakes and teaches yoga. It would be hilarious if they discovered that they are the evil twins. 

Except Tilly. Which begs the question - what is wrong with Tilly? How did she end up on this weird dark ship? She's got to have something.

This episode did nothing to cure me of finding Lorca ridiculously attractive. Darn it. He's so bad. I was just joking with someone the other day that it usually only takes a couple of episodes for a male Star Trek captain to get his shirt off. And there we go. 

Also, has anyone got a theory about Michael and Gabriel both being archangel names? Until this episode, I had forgotten that Lorca is named Gabriel - the revealer and messenger, and Michael is the warrior who in the Torah and the Bible  defeats Satan's armies and defends the Jewish people. I'm not religious, so I have no idea if there's more to it than that?

I think that we'll all be a bit sad if Tyler turns out to be Voq. He's a likable guy and seems to fit in nicely.

This version of Sarek is great. There was a moment, when Michael asks him if he feels shame, where he said 'Yes' and it sounded just like how Leonard Nimoy would have said it. I mean, it was just one word, but it was so exactly right.

[paigow]

On 10/27/2017 at 6:48 PM, tpel said:

Many women dye their hair lighter than their natural color as they get older, too. My Mom had brown hair in her youth, then went blondish, then blond-to-gray. I'm sure Sarek would find all this highly illogical....

Or inexplicably attractive...his 2nd TNG wife was almost a copy of Amanda...

[Ely]

Quote

Except Tilly. Which begs the question - what is wrong with Tilly? How did she end up on this weird dark ship? She's got to have something.

That is exactly right, I've been wondering myself. She's really bringing something to the crew, absolutely no question, but she is so un-Starfleet, so human, she stands out. And why didn't they make her at least an Ensign?

I'm still waiting on some more info on that cool robot-human they have on the bridge.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Ely said:

 She's really bringing something to the crew, absolutely no question, but she is so un-Starfleet,

She is likely an ancestor of Wesley Crusher...