S03.E04: What would Lucifer Do?

[CheshireCat]

7 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I agree that Lucifer should be really concerned about the idea that some unknown criminal can apparently make fundamental changes to him from afar against his will. Because the news that there's someone besides his parents with the kind of power to do that sort of thing should be a big deal.

Since Lucifer is convinced that Dad is behind it, I don't think he should be concerned. He's found a perfectly "reasonable" explanation.

 

15 hours ago, Featherhat said:

 I know Luci tends to get very tunnel visioned when he thinks he's being wronged by Dad or anyone else but I'm beyond impatient for him to realise that if the sinnerman or whoever else is responsible for what's happening to him then he's either working with Dad or potentially as powerful as him.

But he is convinced that Dad is behind it all. He made that clear in the pilot, he accused everyone connected to the kidnapping or who he suspected of being behind the kidnapping of working for his father and he's convinced that the Sinnerman is his father's doing. (That Lucifer is convinced it's his Dad suggests that only his Dad could give back his wings, so, I'm hoping that this won't turn out to be a "battle of the Gods" or something and Sinnerman is from an alternate universe just like the one he sent Mom to).

 

13 hours ago, Harry Potter said:

One thing I don't get is what happened between Lucifer and Chloe? Last season finale he was about to reveal to Chloe who he really is and his feelings. But this season, he's back to having flings with random girls. Did the show ever explain that? 

Yes, they did. He went to show her his devil face and it didn't work and he got really mad at Dad/the Sinnerman for taking his devil face and and giving him his wings back (turning him back into an angel, I assume), so he decided to show them/Dad that he won't be manipulated (into being an angel) and is making his own decisions and with that, Chloe became an afterthought while being "bad" became his priority.

What I find interesting is that while he may have claimed that he's tired of being the Devil, he also seems to like being the devil. Yes, he's upset that this happened against his will, at least, that is what he believes, but he also seemed to mind that he lost his devil face. And he could probably find other ways to be bad than falling back into "Devil habits". I think Lucifer doesn't mind being the Devil so much, I think what he really minds is that he/the Devil gets blamed for everything.

 

11 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

I am probably the only one, but am getting tired of Amenadiel's "this is a test for me". He is too fixated on that and loosing his charm, at least for me.

Yes, it is tiring, at the same time, it's interesting how both brothers end up fixating on things. They're not really that different if you think about it. Lucifer has his obsession with "everything's Dad plan" and Amenadiel has his obsession with "this is a test". They both jump to conclusions and then don't let go even though they have no idea if they're right. For both, it's a possibility but there are also other options and neither considers them/entertains the idea.

I wonder if part of the plan is also for them to realize that they'll balance each other out because that is what it feels like to me. They're similar but in different ways; Lucifer is rebellious and Amenadiel is totally accepting.

 

3 hours ago, Ria said:

Completely agree storeyskip. The surest way to turn an audience against a character is to have every other character fawn over her and state her specialness. If the writers want us to believe she’s special, they need to write her better. Linda, Maize and Trixie are all awesome and completely outshining Chloe. And nothing other than better writing is going to change that. 

Not sure if it's the writing or the acting.

Edited October 24, 2017 by CheshireCat

[Ria]

Not sure if it's the writing or the acting.

 Both. In all honesty, not only does Chloe add nothing to the show, her scenes actually suck the life out of it. And yet every character thinks she’s so wonderful. The only explanation I can think of is it’s some sort of God induced mass hallucination. (sarcasm)

[Mabinogia]

17 minutes ago, Ria said:

And yet every character thinks she’s so wonderful. The only explanation I can think of is it’s some sort of God induced mass hallucination. (sarcasm)

That or her boobs were really, REALLY amazing in that teen sex movie she was in. lol

It cracks me up they tried so hard to make her "edgy" and have a "past" and yet she's got about as much character development as a typical one off background cop on Law and Order. She's just so generic. As lame as it is, I'm glad her "specialness" is because of Dad because otherwise it would seem absurd that an immortal angel would find her even remotely interesting. 

[tennisgurl]

Wow, as soon as I realized where Lucifer's story was going to Amendiel, I actually gasped. That was brutal, and seriously uncalled for. It feels weird saying that the Devil is being an asshole, but the Devil really WAS being an asshole. 

I was not a huge fan of this one. Lucifer wasn't really back to being a darkly cheerful hedonist, he was just being an asshole the whole episode. Granted, it turns out that no one at that camp really did change, so maybe he was right? I get what they're going for, with Lucifer thinking that he hasn't changed because he thinks Dad is manipulating him again so now he is lashing out and going on and on about how bad people will always be bad people, but they were laying it on SO THICK that it didn't seem natural. 

What is going on with Ella this season? Some of her stuff was funny, but she is so over the top, she seems ridiculous. Last season she was quirky, but in a way that seemed real. This is just bonkers. 

I get why Tom Welling isn't a fan of Dan, being as Dan did some sketchy stuff, but him constantly being shitty to him is going to get old fast. Dan is a good guy who dug himself into a bad hole and made bad choices trying to crawl out of it. He doesn't deserve to get dragged all the time. Also, so glad to know that no one else got a "vibe" between him and Chloe. 

Speaking of, Chloe has improved, but she is still consistently my least favorite character, and a big part of that is everyone going on about how special and awesome she is instead of just showing it. Really, what makes her so special that the Devil himself changes his whole existence for her? Just saying that shes a magical gift from Dad isn't a very compelling reason from a story standpoint! 

The highlights of the episode were the scenes between Amendiel and Dan, and Amediel was by far the MVP of the episode. While the whole episode was pretty mediocre, all his scenes were gold. 

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, wasn't feeling this one either.  It certainly didn't help that I pretty much called the killer when he first appeared.  Sure, this show has never been that surprising with its cases, but even by that standards, this was pretty weak.

But really, I'm just not feeling the Price character.  I do think I get what they are going for, but I just find him dull, unless he's interacting with Lucifer.  I do think there were a couple of lines that hint that he does know way more then he's letting on, but I'm getting to the point where I don't even care about that part.  I do think a lot of it is also on Tom Welling, who I don't think is horrible, but he's still pretty stiff.  And I actually like Lauren German more then most, but she also seems to struggle when she's around him.  It's like she lives or dies by her co-star.  When it's opposite someone like Tom Ellis or Lesley Ann-Brandt (or even Kevin Alejandro), she can be pretty fun, but when it's opposite of Welling or even Aimee Garcia (who I won't fully blame for my current issues with Ella, but it factors in), she kind of falters.  Just not feeling it.

Speaking of which, yeah, they need to get their shit together with Ella.  She's almost become a cartoon character and, again, I really like Aimee Garcia, but she is just over-the-top to the point of it being cringeworthy.  They had a much better handle of the character last season.

Ameandiel definitely was the best thing tonight with his attempts to "walk in Lucifer's shoes", his bonding with Dan (love those two!), and the face-off against Lucifer.  I'm glad he knew Lucifer was just putting on an act, but I still felt for him.  Granted, between this and his action during the case, Lucifer was a bit of an unlikable dick in this one, but I at least think that is on purpose.

Poor Dan though.  Even when he wins, he loses.  They really need to get shitting on him.  I almost with Price would just straight-up fire him, instead of keep batting him around like this.  Of course, I obviously don't want Dan going anywhere, so I'm sure they can work him in still!

OK, I understand why both Maze and Trixie are limited, but not even any Linda?  Boo!

[CheshireCat]

7 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

That or her boobs were really, REALLY amazing in that teen sex movie she was in. lol

It cracks me up they tried so hard to make her "edgy" and have a "past" and yet she's got about as much character development as a typical one off background cop on Law and Order. She's just so generic. As lame as it is, I'm glad her "specialness" is because of Dad because otherwise it would seem absurd that an immortal angel would find her even remotely interesting. 

I never looked at it like this but now that you mention it... She's the last person I'd consider "edgy". As a matter of fact, I was wondering about her clothes in this episode. What was up with that jacket she was wearing at the beginning that looked like it was about three sizes too big?

The Lt. is questionable and I hate the way he treats Dan and that no one bothers to defend him, but I think I would have reacted to Chloe in a similar way. She's insecure each time she's around him and comes across as wanting to be the "teacher's favorite" and that is so annoying. Why can't she just be an adult who is doing her job?

And she skipped hunting down a murderer to get to the hospital? Seriously?

But if the Lt. wants Chloe, he can have her. Unfortunately, since TPTB control the show, that would mean a jealous Lucifer instead of simply returning to a S1 Lucifer, so I guess, I have to be against it. But I don't really want to be.

I didn't mind Lucifer's behavior. He was very pilot-like, a bit more obnoxious at times and he was very hurtful to Amenadiel, but as hurtful as he was, there's a purpose to it. He's still the broken man who's trying to find out who he is. (Even though I think that he already knows that, he's just too obsessed thinking that it's all Dad's doing). But did he really waste a judge's favor on unsealing a juvenile record?

I like Dan and Amenadiel together, still, I'm a bit bothered by that relationship, too. Amenadiel wanted to kill Lucifer and made Dan get him the murder weapon. It's part of the reason why Dan's currently everyone's doormat at the precinct. I'm not saying that Dan should hate Amenadiel, just not be his BFF, maybe. And there should come a point when Dan wants to cash him all of the favors Amenadiel owes him, I think.

Oh, and Lucifer wasn't allowed to drag from a cigarette but Fox allows them to have a a wole episode that contains a lot of drinking and makes weed smoking look cool at 8 p.m.? Right.

On a shallow note, I probably could have watched Lucifer and Amenadiel wearing suits for the whole hour and I would have been a very happy camper. They're both doing suits so well!

[AngelKitty]

OK, I'm just going to say it: I think the Lt. might be God. 

[storyskip]

4 hours ago, AngelKitty said:

OK, I'm just going to say it: I think the Lt. might be God. 

I don't think the show writers are going to go there, especially not at 8pm.

But I do think the Lt is going to turn out to either be another angel or be like Chloe in having been touched by divinity in some way.

[Bruinsfan]

Oh dear. If that turned out to be case Lucifer would have been right all along!

I don't think Yahweh would be cozying up to the perfect soulmate he arranged in advance for his prodigal son (even if he is smarting from the ex cutting off all contact with Him).

[Ria]

Isn’t it ironic that the “special” one and the”rock star” are the two dullest characters on the show? A classic example of telling the audience how special they are instead of writing and developing their characters in such a way to actually make them stand out. 

[Zipper]

9 hours ago, AngelKitty said:

OK, I'm just going to say it: I think the Lt. might be God. 

Hmmm.  I would much prefer Timothy Omundson return as God Johnson. 

[CheshireCat]

4 hours ago, storyskip said:

I don't think the show writers are going to go there, especially not at 8pm.

But I do think the Lt is going to turn out to either be another angel or be like Chloe in having been touched by divinity in some way.

Hopefully not. Not that I want to protect Chloe's specialness but I don't think this should be portrayed as a common occurance. Considering that it was the only time that Amenadiel had been asked to perform this task, it also sounds like it's not a common occurance. I think, contrary to Lucifer's beliefs, Dad rarely actively interfers.

[vavera4ka]

I kinda doubt they would cast Tom Welling to be God.

I was a bit skeptical about Timothy Omundson, but his character won me over. Yes to him coming back as God, no to Superman God.

Him being a re-born angel or smth, ok, I can buy it. Like for example, Uriel somehow got... undestroyed...

[johntfs]

3 minutes ago, vavera4ka said:

Him being a re-born angel or smth, ok, I can buy it. Like for example, Uriel somehow got... undestroyed...

I think it'd be more interesting if it was Michael or Gabriel, one of the bigger angelic names.

[CheshireCat]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

I think it'd be more interesting if it was Michael or Gabriel, one of the bigger angelic names.

Not sure if that would work since the brothers seem to know one another. Lucifer knew what Amenadiel and Uriel looked like, so I'm assuming he knows what Michael and Gabriel look like. Uriel seems to be the only one who would work since it would make sense if he had a new appearance. I doubt that he'd advocate for Chloe being responsible for Lucifer changing though and I can't really see him act like the Lt. is acting.

Currently, I don't want anyone to be God. I don't know why, it just doesn't feel right. And then there's the fact that God is abstract, a different appearance for everyone and I feel that giving him a body and saying "this is God" is presumptuous.

[Zipper]

1 hour ago, CheshireCat said:

Currently, I don't want anyone to be God. I don't know why, it just doesn't feel right. And then there's the fact that God is abstract, a different appearance for everyone and I feel that giving him a body and saying "this is God" is presumptuous.

Might be cool if God appeared, but differently to each mortal and only the angels figure out later that it was God.  

[CheshireCat]

12 minutes ago, Zipper said:

Might be cool if God appeared, but differently to each mortal and only the angels figure out later that it was God.  

That I could live with.

[Mabinogia]

12 hours ago, Zipper said:

Might be cool if God appeared, but differently to each mortal and only the angels figure out later that it was God.  

That would actually be really interesting. To see how each character perceives God. It would tell us a lot about the characters. This show just isn't that clever so I don't expect it.

[Loandbehold]

3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

That would actually be really interesting. To see how each character perceives God. It would tell us a lot about the characters. This show just isn't that clever so I don't expect it.

It would also be expensive to hire so many different actors, especially if you wanted "name" actors for the part of God.

[johntfs]

22 hours ago, Zipper said:

Might be cool if God appeared, but differently to each mortal and only the angels figure out later that it was God.  

I'd prefer that not to happen.  I'm hoping we've already gotten as close as we're going to get to meeting God with the "God Johnson" episode.  I think one of the cooler aspects of this show is the concept that despite knowing God and being often in His presence, Lucifer and Amenadiel are just as puzzled and frustrated trying to figure Him out as the rest of us mortals.

[Rushmoras]

Well, that was a boring episode for me. The only good thing about it was Lucifer drinking scotch (or whatnot) from the flask during investigations. I guess, that's to be expected when there is no Dr. Linda or Maze in the episode.

[enoughcats]

On 10/25/2017 at 8:52 PM, Zipper said:

Might be cool if God appeared, but differently to each mortal and only the angels figure out later that it was God.  

Babylon 5.

Really, if you haven't watched it at least twice.............

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, enoughcats said:

Babylon 5.

Really, if you haven't watched it at least twice.............

Ugh -- I couldn't stand it once!

[Jacks-Son]

3 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Ugh -- I couldn't stand it once!

OT, but the 1st season was horrible. Once you get past that, B5 is my 2nd best series behind Farscape. Once Sinclair left, on B5, and Sheridan took over, the series was off and running. /End OT

[jhlipton]

28 minutes ago, Jacks-Son said:

OT, but the 1st season was horrible. Once you get past that, B5 is my 2nd best series behind Farscape. Once Sinclair left, on B5, and Sheridan took over, the series was off and running. /End OT

OT -- Nope. -- End OT

[Zipper]

On 10/26/2017 at 5:04 PM, johntfs said:

I'd prefer that not to happen.  I'm hoping we've already gotten as close as we're going to get to meeting God with the "God Johnson" episode.  I think one of the cooler aspects of this show is the concept that despite knowing God and being often in His presence, Lucifer and Amenadiel are just as puzzled and frustrated trying to figure Him out as the rest of us mortals.

Understood, and that's totally fair.  But I don't necessarily believe that God's appearance incognito leads to better understanding of his/her intent, plan, etc.  I really want this show to keep a solid foot in the supernatural, and if we're going to go another 3, 4, 22 episodes without Chloe learning who Lucy is, we're gonna need something.  Might as well be a mysterious entity, assistant, or influence experienced by the main characters without providing the angels any further insight into "His/Her" plan.

[CheshireCat]

47 minutes ago, Zipper said:

Understood, and that's totally fair.  But I don't necessarily believe that God's appearance incognito leads to better understanding of his/her intent, plan, etc.  I really want this show to keep a solid foot in the supernatural, and if we're going to go another 3, 4, 22 episodes without Chloe learning who Lucy is, we're gonna need something.  Might as well be a mysterious entity, assistant, or influence experienced by the main characters without providing the angels any further insight into "His/Her" plan.

I'd rather have Chloe learn who Lucifer is! I want to know how she deals with that. Maze, too. That could be especially interesting considering they're sharing an apartment. And imagine how Dan would react to learning that he slept with the Goddess of all creation.

[sinkwriter]

Quote

Eh, while I've come to like Dan as we've seen more sides to him, he IS a dirty cop who's blown another dirty cop away and then let his wife take all the heat for it. And he's also taken justice into his own hands and had his father-in-law's killer snatched up by the Mob or whatever when the courts couldn't touch him. He should be giving thanks for only having to deal with a new boss that looks down on him, rather than being in prison and completely estranged from his family. The latter consequences could have easily resulted from what he's done.

This is pretty much what I wanted to say, but you said it so much better. Thanks, Bruinsfan!

I don't like the lieutenant pounding down so hard on Dan, but then I remember how much I despised Dan throughout the first season, and how he put his own wife into so much trouble AND lorded it over her every damn week. I wanted to punch him in the face, every time he gave Chloe a lecture or told her "I'm soooo disappointed in you." He was such a dick. And a criminal. So while I like him so much better now and I'm glad to see the showrunners are evolving him and putting him to good use instead of keeping him in dick mode, I do think it's understandable that a new boss coming in might look at Dan's file and not think very highly of him at all and think that he needs to re-prove himself. I think he's essentially giving Dan all the scut work and seeing how much the guy is willing to take without bitching or whining. Because - like Bruinsfan pointed out - he's lucky he's not in prison and completely estranged from his family after all he did.

Count me in on the "what the hell are you doing to the Ella character??" I thought she was mildly amusing last season and had potential to be interesting, given her faith and how it contrasts with Lucifer's feelings about faith and God. And I loved her connecting on a deeper level with Amenadiel in a recent episode. However... please please STOP with the childish behavior!

Any rational person would see the lieutenant treating Chloe like crap and think, "Yeah, he's pretty rough on her"; definitely NOT "Girl, he totally has the hots for you!" Her repeated insistence that he "likes" Chloe reminds me of how the showrunners of Bones used to have characters always commenting on how Booth and Brennan should totally be together, whether or not it actually fit the scene or needed to be said. It got to be an almost weekly commentary either from Sweets the FBI psychologist, their colleagues, or even the criminals in the cases they were investigating. That drove me NUTS. It was like being beaten over the head with a bat that read "These two characters are in looooove, can you see it??" We viewers didn't need that when watching that show, and we sure don't need it here either. Keep to the more unspoken stuff like seeing Lucifer angry with himself (and then not wanting to deal with those emotions) after not being there when someone took a shot a Chloe. Don't dumb down this show. It's so unnecessary.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

So, punishing an eye for an eye is now evil above Lucifer's weight class?  

Amen, and this show, get more ridiculous as the story moves on.

[wilnil]

2 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

So, punishing an eye for an eye is now evil above Lucifer's weight class?  

Amen, and this show, get more ridiculous as the story moves on.

Killing humans is supposed to be forbidden for angels (think they said this in the first season). Apparently "'Vengeance is mine,' saith the Lord" applies to them too. Even Uriel could only arrange things in a butterfly-effect sort of way that could end with a human death at someone/something else's hands.

[Lonesome Rhodes]

12 hours ago, wilnil said:

Killing humans is supposed to be forbidden for angels (think they said this in the first season). Apparently "'Vengeance is mine,' saith the Lord" applies to them too. Even Uriel could only arrange things in a butterfly-effect sort of way that could end with a human death at someone/something else's hands.

If we were dealing with a straight interpretation/canon of the Bible, I'd be inclined to agree.  But, as has been made abundantly clear, we are dealing with an alternative God/universe.

Luci's raison d'être is to self-righteously avenge wrongs.  It's his base justification for everything he does, beginning with his schism with Dad - and he's done it from the time of the first humans.  And Amen piously proclaims to Luci that he's better than that and that is not who he is?  Puhlease.

This was, imo, soap opera shlock at its finest (worst?).

[wilnil]

3 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

If we were dealing with a straight interpretation/canon of the Bible, I'd be inclined to agree.  But, as has been made abundantly clear, we are dealing with an alternative God/universe.

Luci's raison d'être is to self-righteously avenge wrongs.  It's his base justification for everything he does, beginning with his schism with Dad - and he's done it from the time of the first humans.  And Amen piously proclaims to Luci that he's better than that and that is not who he is?  Puhlease.

This was, imo, soap opera shlock at its finest (worst?).

OK, but what I'm saying is that in this show's universe, they've said that angels aren't supposed to kill humans. The punishments that Lucifer has been dealing out for the past eon or so have been to damned souls after they died and went to Hell. He and the other angels, fallen or not,  haven't been killing those people themselves; they've died from purely Earthly causes.