S25.E06: Week 5: Disney Night

[spanana]

27 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

Yes I was referring to people who get on social media and post nasty notes to people. That really happens. I totally get "hating" someone on TV but that is harmless.

On the whole hate topic in general, I don't think there is a problem with viewers having preferences both in terms of dance ability and personalities.  The show thrives on that and the whole competition aspect with viewer voting of course means that people will internalize this and have opinions.  Opinions are fine.

What I count as hate is not someone saying "I hate so and so's dance and I prefer x contestant" or that "X person is annoying".  There are comments that go below the belt, i.e. like trying to assassinate a celeb's character for no reason and when people actively post and send hate to said celebrity/pro on that the show like they owe them anything.  Keep your opinions to your little area and don't tweet said celeb pro about how fat/ugly/untalented/stupid/worthless they are (or anything else of the sort) and you would be surprised with a show like DWTS how quickly people blur the lines.

Also my only point earlier about the Normani hate last season is not that she didn't receive any (she certainly did), but I rolled my eyes when I saw some of her fans complaining about it while doing the same and sending nasty messages to Rashad and David and anybody else that was in her way.

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As for people like Jordan, he may be shorter, but he has a very lean figure, which I find does allow for a better lift. Some people can't do the lifts. I'd rather they didn't try and make fools of themselves, like David Ross last season. Why push something if it's going to look utterly stupid AND dock points in the end?

Same.  I'd argue that more often than not most celeb performed lifts don't look good.  Even if they aren't going to drop their pros, the entrances and exits are sloppy and usually take me out of a dance.  The only lift in recent memory that actually awed me as being 100% perfect in execution and for its placement in the dance was Calvin Johnson doing that really cool windmill lift with Lindsay a few seasons ago.  And that was an example of a lift that worked because he was sooo tall and strong and so they got some really awesome height out of it and it looked effortless. 

I'm also not going to defend enjoying Frankie so far.  I enjoy Frankie and think while not perfect, in context of DWTS for having zero experience, not a natural dancers build, and a load of serious injuries, he's doing a pretty good job. I also really enjoy Jordan.  They are probably my favorite two this season at the moment, but subject to change.  I can enjoy all types.

[Evenshorter]

On 10/17/2017 at 0:19 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I watched Terrell's dance. God, the band sucks. They ruined my favourite Disney song. But when I rewound to watch the dance, I thought it was...not good, actually. Not a lot of Quickstep....well, not as much as I hoped. I also noticed that he couldn't quite keep up with the quick movements. 

It definitely didn't deserve a 9, not by a long shot. I really need him or Nick to go next week. 

Watching Drew's dance, I thought that he did well. He is seeming to get better each week. He's way better than Nick or Terrell, at least. 

I thought they used the original "I just can't wait to be King" song for TO and Cheryl. We were watching our recording last night, and my son was in the kitchen with his back to the TV and asked why we were watching The Lion King.

[iMonrey]

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I love Mark's creativity, but I also love when he does his "pure" dances, because they really show off his strong ballroom pedigree.

However, Mark's been quite a "good boy" so far this season, and I hope to see him start pulling out all the stops :P

At some point they started pairing Mark with teen girls consecutively and that sort of boxed him in WRT the choreography - he obviously couldn't do the sexy, grown-up types of things he had done with more mature partners. In some ways that seemed to "tame" him a little bit. I also have to believe he's heard enough of the feedback from viewers that were kind of ragging on him for doing weird, over the top things with costumes. He really seems to have pulled back and gone back to basics.

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I guess "boring" is the wrong word, because I do like to watch good dancing.  What I meant to convey is that for me, in the context of watching this show, I know that Jordon would dance a good dance and get good scores and not get voted off.  I don't watch this show for the fantastic dance (although I enjoy it when I see it), I watch it to see if the people I like do well, do poorly, or stay or go.

The thing with Jordan and other ringers is that he's perfect to start with and there's no growth arc. You don't get the enthusiasm, joy and surprise from him when he does well because he's always perfect, and that's boring. I mean sure - lots of people watch this show just to see great dancing and maybe their favorite parts are the pro numbers. But for me, the really compelling reason to watch is seeing people like Frankie or James Hinchcliffe who come out of nowhere with no experience and just delight the pants off of you. This is supposed to be a competition - if I just wanted to watch pros dancing perfect numbers, I'd just watch pro dancers.

[Callaphera]

2 hours ago, boyznkatz said:

Yes I was referring to people who get on social media and post nasty notes to people. That really happens. I totally get "hating" someone on TV but that is harmless.

Okay but isn't that just an expansion of what I wrote earlier? 

The Internet provides anonymity. Those people sitting behind their keyboard and typing up tweets? I would honestly put the vast majority of them into that same category of "hate" and not hate. I'm not talking about hate speech or death threats but really, if a celebrity can't have a thick skin and deal with the criticism they face on social media (or any other sort of platform), they should probably look for a new line of work. 

Is there a celebrity this season getting massive amounts of hate on social media? Not "hate" but hate? Or are we still reflecting on past seasons, which has nothing to do with this week of competition?

 

20 hours ago, spanana said:

What is interesting about it though is for all of the Vanessa/Maks hate each other drama, we haven't seen even a second of footage of them fighting. Which makes no sense.  If the show wants the drama of the whole spectacle, then why not give us the actual drama from rehearsals? I don't think it isn't happening.  We actually haven't been given any footage as yet this season of any celeb/pro fighting.  There might have been a few bad attitude moments from TO early on, but otherwise we have been light on the drama.  What is the point of leaking stuff about Vanessa/Maks to the tabs if you aren't going to go there on the show? Most casual viewers don't follow anything DWTS that isn't on the show so I'd argue most viewers of the show probably don't even know about the rumors.

 Because there is no footage of them fighting. Because I think that there may have been some tension in the past, off-camera, and this season is so dull with the lack of drama that they're creating it. They're making a little butting of heads into this whole massive "Maks and Vanessa hate each other! Read all about it in People!". Drama brings people in. I know I tend to watch more reality shows when I'm promised drama in the ads or in media detailing it. 

The promise of drama, and the continued whispers of it can and (most likely) will draw in viewers that have either stopped watching this season because there wasn't much in it for them, people who wouldn't normally watch but are drama freaks like me, or just simply because it puts the Dancing with the Stars brand out there and in your face, so why not check out this show and see what's happening?

[PBGamer89]

I watch for good dancing too, and unfortunately majority of that is the female celebs.

But the boredom of Jordan comes from the fact that I see zero growth in him. His dancing will be in the finale the same it was in the premiere (probably day 1 of rehearsals too), and I don't see a performance or emotional growth. Just the same exact dancing from week 1 to the finals.

At least some female ringers in the past had some struggles they improved on (Laurie's gymnastic habits, Paige trusting Mark/herself, etc). 

With Lindsey this season she's a great dancer, I suspect there's minor dance training, but not even close to what Jordan has, but I'm seeing herself go out of her comfort zone and be more emotional and real, as opposed to the usual quirkiness she exudes on stage.

Not to mention, I don't connect at all with Jordan's personality, seems a bit fake or self assured. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by PBGamer89

[SnarkyTart]

I’m genuinely curious about the dance background of Jordan, and if he’s had dance training at a level sufficient to earn him the ringer status.  I haven’t seen much posted about specifically why he’s a ringer other than that his background is in musical theater and he’s been on Broadway.  A lot of musical theater graduates, including those on Broadway, can’t actually dance all that well and it’s not necessarily required in the roles they play. 

As far as I can find, Jordan was a student of Red Mountain Theater Company for most of his teenage years, and he’s only 23 now.  As a musical theater student, he would have only been required to learn basic dance positions and basic dance steps (box step, triple step, rock step, etc).  That’s mostly what I see here in this video of him performing with the Red Mountain Theater Company in 2010.  (He’s the one in the orange plaid shirt with a solo about :55 to 1:15)

 

As far as I know, his role in Hamilton, as well as his role in Grease, was as a singer/actor.  I have watched some of his current music videos on youtube where he does do some short hip-hop break outs, but his hip-hop looks pretty basic to me as well.

Does anyone know for sure that he’s actually had professional dance training?  And, if so, when and where? 

[boyznkatz]

I don't think Jordan is any more of a ringer than any of the dozens of other ringers they've had on this show. And just because he's the best dancer doesn't mean he will win, no matter how many 10s he gets. I like him, but I'm not going to stop watching if he doesn't win. TPTB just need to stop meddling and let the chips fall where they may.

[boyznkatz]

2 hours ago, Callaphera said:

Okay but isn't that just an expansion of what I wrote earlier? 

The Internet provides anonymity. Those people sitting behind their keyboard and typing up tweets? I would honestly put the vast majority of them into that same category of "hate" and not hate. I'm not talking about hate speech or death threats but really, if a celebrity can't have a thick skin and deal with the criticism they face on social media (or any other sort of platform), they should probably look for a new line of work. 

Is there a celebrity this season getting massive amounts of hate on social media? Not "hate" but hate? Or are we still reflecting on past seasons, which has nothing to do with this week of competition?

I still can't imagine why someone would post a hurtful comment to someone on twitter. These are still real people with feelings. I remember Meryl Davis talking about people calling her ugly on the internet and how hurt she was. What a shame, as she seems like a sweet person.

I don't think anyone has gotten all out vitriol since Bristol Palin. I didn't like her, but dang!

[kitcloudkicker]

32 minutes ago, SnarkyTart said:

Does anyone know for sure that he’s actually had professional dance training?  And, if so, when and where?

I’m fairly confident he’s the one in the light blue shirt and the bucket hat in this dance:

 

He’s pretty clearly trained in this sort of stuff, whether as part of Disney boot camp only or if he had training before, I don’t know. He’s basically Corbin* the Second. He’s also has said he started in gymnastics so he’s got that movement training too.

Where I disagree with some of the comments is that he has nowhere to improve in ballroom. I’m no ballroom expert, but to my eye I don’t believe him yet in ballroom dances. His movement doesn’t always seem commanding enough, it sometimes seems a little too...modern? Bouncy? Light? I’m having a hard time describing it. I think he’s good, and I can also think he’s improved from week one, and I also see him being able to get better. I’m seeing arc-iness.

*the funny thing is I really like Jordan but remember being annoyed by Corbin, so maybe I “get it” if people don’t like him. But I really think Jordan’s got some “it factor” to him.

Edited October 19, 2017 by kitcloudkicker

[Andie1]

Yes it was a really cool song from Moana, and Jordan has a wicked high note when I first heard it I thought that was a perfect strict tempo Foxtrot, but I was interested to see what they would do with the rap section.

-

Edited October 19, 2017 by Andie1

[Andie1]

10 hours ago, spanana said:

I'd argue that more often than not most celeb performed lifts don't look good.

The top male contenders in the last few years have done great lifts.

Celebs Rashad, and Calvin did amazing lifts, better than the pros. These guys are big,not necessarily small and lean, One armed Noah Gallagher did astounding lifts. 

James Hinchcliffe was small of stature except unlike  like Muniz that didn't stop him from doing an overhead lift on his freestyle and a number of innovative tricks on the AT and even when Sharna was injured he managed some decent lifts on the jitterbug.  So Frankie gets a pass for shoddy footwork, and poor posture, and now lifts.  He must be a magical elf.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Andie1

[Andie1]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

The thing with Jordan and other ringers is that he's perfect to start with and there's no growth arc. You don't get the enthusiasm, joy and surprise from him when he does well because he's always perfect, and that's boring

I call BS on any growth arc.  That is utterly boring because it's nothing more than a manufactured ABC ploy designed to snooker people into thinking these people were sprinkled with magic fairy dust and suddenly learned how to dance. What a load.. Nobody learns to really Ballroom and Latin  dance after 13 weeks. All these people know is a minute and a half of choreography.  To really learn to dance is tedious and boring, and years of training involved, and that's where you see a real growth arc, not a fake one for tv.  So to say Jordan is boring is funny, because I'd rather fast forward through most of the cast and see some real dancing from a few contestants. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Andie1

[Emily-D]

If Jordan was female he’d be a shock elimination around week 7-8. 

[Toonces464]

21 hours ago, tessaforever said:

What really bothered me was that by leaving Vanessa alone up in the skybox, it meant that Maks wasn't there FOR HIS OWN WIFE after her dance. He really is a selfish pig. He didn't even have to stand next to Vanessa if he didn't want to. Ugh. 

If you happened to look at Instagram, right around that time Maks was behind the skybox curtain filming an Instagram story with Erin about Aaron Rodgers' injury.

 

20 hours ago, MsJamieDornan said:

Then what did he apologize for?   And, she showed up, he didn't !

I would bet a week's paycheck that Maks was forced to give that "apology."

[Emily-D]

One other point regarding the difference of audience opinions regarding contestants and whether their gender makes a difference. Just a hunch here but if Nikki was male I suspect she’d be a hell of a lot more liked by the general DWTS demographic audience than she seems to be compared to say Drew. I’ve started to notice that she’s pretty much the female equivalent of him (I like both by the way this isn’t me hating on Drew), she’s happy, positive, a hard worker, no dance experience, embracing the experience and improving every week, supportive to all the other cast members (go and check out a IG message she wrote to Sasha when she was eliminated). But of course she’s a confident, attractive woman who throws people around for a living as opposed to a confident, attractive man who finds members of the public their dream properties for a living.

[spanana]

4 hours ago, Callaphera said:

Because there is no footage of them fighting. Because I think that there may have been some tension in the past, off-camera, and this season is so dull with the lack of drama that they're creating it. They're making a little butting of heads into this whole massive "Maks and Vanessa hate each other! Read all about it in People!". Drama brings people in. I know I tend to watch more reality shows when I'm promised drama in the ads or in media detailing it. 

The promise of drama, and the continued whispers of it can and (most likely) will draw in viewers that have either stopped watching this season because there wasn't much in it for them, people who wouldn't normally watch but are drama freaks like me, or just simply because it puts the Dancing with the Stars brand out there and in your face, so why not check out this show and see what's happening?

I don't agree. Mostly because both Vanessa and Maks have 100% stopped posting from rehearsals. The first few weeks Vanessa was always posting snippets of her rehearsals with Maks (and vice versa).  Since then she and Maks mostly pretend their rehearsals don't exist and Vanessa only posts from home or out while doing other career things.  What would be the point of her pretending Maks basically doesn't exist when she used to at least post cute happy snippets?  Either continue posting happy snippets and show everyone is fine or if you want the attention and drama, post something that alludes to there being drama.  Don't ignore it completely.

Also the average DWTS viewer doesn't pay attention to what is in the tabloids about the season so I'm willing to bet the majority of viewers don't know anything about the Vanessa/Maks supposed drama outside of the weirdness of Maks having a personal issue one week and/or if said viewers picked up on any on air tension of their own.  The tabloid articles weren't even interesting enough to get people to tune in for drama.  At worst it said they butt heads and hate each other because they are both alphas and too much alike.  

However I do remember Tom or one of the producers saying pre-season that this was meant to be the drama feel-good season so I do think TPTB are trying something new for whatever reason.

[spanana]

1 hour ago, Andie1 said:

The top male contenders in the last few years have done great lifts.

Celebs Rashad, and Calvin did amazing lifts, better than the pros. These guys are big,not necessarily small and lean, One armed Noah Gallagher did astounding lifts. 

James Hinchcliffe was small of stature except unlike  like Muniz that didn't stop him from doing an overhead lift on his freestyle and a number of innovative tricks on the AT and even when Sharna was injured he managed some decent lifts on the jitterbug.  So Frankie gets a pass for shoddy footwork, and poor posture, and now lifts.  He must be a magical elf.

That is fine and your opinion. I choose to disagree. I don't really see Frankie getting a huge pass. At best he's getting overscored a bit IMO, but the only point I am making personally is that don't I don't give a crap about lifts. I'd be happy if nobody could do lifts. I enjoyed Rashad but I can't even remember any of his lifts, which is not to say they were bad, but they clearly weren't memorable to me personally.  But Rashad, while maybe not huge, was an athlete in tip top shape.  Dude was on the football field at like 6 or 7 am doing wind sprints and whatever else one does in a football workout every morning before DWTS practice (and usually dragged Keo, Alan, Gleb and other male pros with him).  He was strong and in peak physical condition.  To me he isn't a fair comparison to a small relatively scrawny guy like Frankie, and that is without his injuries.  James is a somewhat more apt comparison based on injuries, but physically he's still a different body type than Frankie.  I'm also not going to expect Frankie to be able to do what Jordan can do.

All that aside though, lifts to me just aren't essential to my enjoyment of dancing on this show.  I didn't even notice a lack of lifts in Frankie's AT because there was enough else in there and Witney did a few movements where her feet came off the floor that it gave enough of an illusion.  IMO it took nothing away from the dance.

[tessaforever]

2 hours ago, Toonces464 said:

If you happened to look at Instagram, right around that time Maks was behind the skybox curtain filming an Instagram story with Erin about Aaron Rodgers' injury.

I don't know about during Nick & Peta's dance, but afterwards, Nick & Peta were talking to Erin in the skybox, and Maks was not there. Or with Erin, as she was talking to Nick & Peta. Vanessa hovered behind them alone. 

[blaase]

This is my least favorite season ever.

[crossover]

3 hours ago, spanana said:

All that aside though, lifts to me just aren't essential to my enjoyment of dancing on this show.  I didn't even notice a lack of lifts in Frankie's AT because there was enough else in there and Witney did a few movements where her feet came off the floor that it gave enough of an illusion.  IMO it took nothing away from the dance.

Agree.  I don't think the lack of lifts took from the dance.  In that way, it reminded me of Lacey/Kyle's AT.  It was a good dance.  If you like Frankie, the performance didn't hurt him.  But, had he been able to do a clean spectacular lift, it would've added to the enjoyment of the dance.  And not only would the current supporters be pleased, but he probably would've garnered more.  The viewers like proper lifts.  I THINK that's one of the reasons why DWTS viewers don't mind contemporary on the show.  I guess the lifts equal strong.  I know there's more than just the male strength but I think that's what it represent to the average viewer.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

20 hours ago, SnarkyTart said:

I’m genuinely curious about the dance background of Jordan, and if he’s had dance training at a level sufficient to earn him the ringer status.  I haven’t seen much posted about specifically why he’s a ringer other than that his background is in musical theater and he’s been on Broadway.  A lot of musical theater graduates, including those on Broadway, can’t actually dance all that well and it’s not necessarily required in the roles they play. 

As far as I can find, Jordan was a student of Red Mountain Theater Company for most of his teenage years, and he’s only 23 now.  As a musical theater student, he would have only been required to learn basic dance positions and basic dance steps (box step, triple step, rock step, etc).  That’s mostly what I see here in this video of him performing with the Red Mountain Theater Company in 2010.  (He’s the one in the orange plaid shirt with a solo about :55 to 1:15)

 

As far as I know, his role in Hamilton, as well as his role in Grease, was as a singer/actor.  I have watched some of his current music videos on youtube where he does do some short hip-hop break outs, but his hip-hop looks pretty basic to me as well.

Does anyone know for sure that he’s actually had professional dance training?  And, if so, when and where? 

Thanks for posting that video! It definitely brought back memories of my high school show choir - lots of step touch step touch "dancing."

It cracks me up whenever people point to Jordan being a ringer because he's a Broadway performer. First of all, not every Broadway musical has tons of complicated choreography. Look at Les Miserables, Phantom of the Opera, Miss Saigon, Rent, Wicked, Once, Bright Star, Dear Evan Hansen, War Paint, etc. Some of musicals have one big dance number. Some have only the ensemble dancing. Some have no dancing at all. Not every show is like Anything Goes where there's a big tap number.

Remember how much dancing Jean Valjean, Fantine, and Eponine did in Les Mis? None! Remember Kim's big dance solo in Miss Saigon? That's because she didn't have one! What about the Phantom's showstopping dance routine? There's no such thing! Not every musical is like An American in Paris with professional ballet dancers as the leads. 

Secondly, Jordan has done ONE Broadway show (Hamilton) and his character does almost no dancing. What little dancing he does is very minimal. The most dancing he does is in "My Shot" and his big dance move there is step out to one side, step out to the other side, and then bring both feet together. Repeat 4x. Then he dances the chorus of the song once with the ensemble. The rest of his role (movement wise) for the entire play is walking around the stage. If you want to see the choreography I'm referring to (performed by the original off Broadway cast), it's at 0:19 in this video. If you want to get really specific, the guy in the darker brown coat (to Lin-Manuel Miranda's right/your left who then pushes the box to the back) is the character that Jordan played.

The only other dancing he does in this song can be seen at 0:28 in this video. The move that the ensemble is doing in the background is the same move he does four times at the beginning of the song.

His big solo in Grease was just him walking around singing a song:

So whatever dance skills he has are not a result of being a Broadway star in Hamilton!

I don't care if he came into this show with prior dance training. I don't care about the growth arc. If I wanted to watch uncoordinated people shuffle their feet to music (ahem, Master P and that ilk of celeb contestant), I could go to any bar with music or club and witness the awkwardness.

But similarly, I also don't care about the lack of flashy lifts in Frankie's routine this week. It's not an Olympic level ice skating or gymnastics routine where you have to do X number of required elements so I think it's fine not to do lifts. As much as I like seeing lifts, I don't think any celebs should be required to do risky moves that could injure them or exacerbate an existing problem. If Victoria doesn't actually have to do jazz in her jazz routine, I'm totally fine with Frankie doing an Argentine tango without any lifts.

Plus I hate that SYTYCD has become a liftapalooza. Contestants on both shows should be taught how to do lifts properly with safe technique to prevent either person from getting hurt. That takes time. I'd rather they spend that time learning the dance style they're doing that week instead of wasting three hours working on getting one lift to look halfway decent.

Edited October 19, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo
Apparently I accidentally deleted part of my post and didn't notice until now!

[boyznkatz]

Are lifts actually required even on the contemporary dances? I know they are permitted in some dances, but required?

[bealled]

I think the criticism of Jordan is valid. Corbin received a lot of backlash and calls of ringer, and Jordan essentially has the same background as Corbin. So if Corbin was a huge ringer, then so is Jordan. Plus, it's funny everyone is downplaying Broadway and theater experience yet whenever a gymnast or ice skater is on, everyone cries foul (yet I would say being involved in musical theater you are a lot more exposed to dance then as a gymnast or ice skater; having certain athletic abilities may lead you to be able to learn dancing quicker than others, but if we start not allowing contestants because they have skills that may make them a good dancer, we will have a show full of terrible dancers). Also Jordan did gymnastics as a child too, so again he was involved in doing something that usually gets called out. I don't care if people still like Jordan or vote for him or if he even wins. Mostly I just think people are being hypocritical towards him for some reason and don't want to admit he qualifies as a ringer. I'm not sure why people are being so defensive anyway. It looks like Jordan is probably going to win this season and he is really not receiving backlash for his ringer status at all aside from a few people on this board. If you compare the board now to last season where just about every female was deemed a ringer, he is basically being ignored as a ringer on this board.

I also notice that if a celebrity was well known beforehand, people are more apt to call them out as a ringer. I'm pretty sure some were trying to call Lindsey out as a ringer before the season started, most likely because she is one of the more well known celebrity names this season. Some have also tried to call Nick Lachey out as a ringer, even though it's fairly clear he isn't a natural dancer.

[Andie1]

7 hours ago, crossover said:

Agree.  I don't think the lack of lifts took from the dance.  In that way, it reminded me of Lacey/Kyle's AT.  It was a good dance.  If you like Frankie, the performance didn't hurt him.  But, had he been able to do a clean spectacular lift, it would've added to the enjoyment of the dance.  And not only would the current supporters be pleased, but he probably would've garnered more.  The viewers like proper lifts.  I THINK that's one of the reasons why DWTS viewers don't mind contemporary on the show.  I guess the lifts equal strong.  I know there's more than just the male strength but I think that's what it represent to the average viewer.

What took the HUGE enjoyment factor from this dance was his poor dance skills and lack of highlights. That could be a lift, a trick, anything at the end of the piece because of the dynamics of the music demand something dramatic.  I was waiting for a good dramatic pause, and Witney looking like a cat in heat isn't it. Nothing came. It was a bust in that regard. 

35 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

Are lifts actually required even on the contemporary dances? I know they are permitted in some dances, but required?

Why are people so hung up on requirements?  I'm talking about drama for a dramatic dance. There was nothing dramatic in that dance aside from some facial hair and a wig.

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Thanks for posting that video! It definitely brought back memories of my high school show choir - lots of step touch step touch "dancing."

It cracks me up whenever people point to Jordan being a ringer because he's a Broadway performer. First of all, not every Broadway musical has tons of complicated choreography. Look at Les Miserables, Phantom of the Opera, Miss Saigon, Rent, Wicked, Once, Bright Star, Dear Evan Hansen, War Paint, etc. Some of these musicals have one big dance number. Some have only the ensemble dancing. Some have no dancing at all.

Secondly, Jordan has done ONE Broadway show (Hamilton) and his character does almost no dancing. What little dancing he does is very minimal. The most dancing he does is in "My Shot" and his big dance move there is step out to one side, step out to the other side, and then bring both feet together. Repeat 4x. Then he dances the chorus once with the ensemble. The rest of his role (movement wise) for the entire play is walking around the stage. If you want to see the choreography I'm referring to (performed by the original off Broadway cast), it's at 0:19 in this video. If you want to get really specific, the guy in the darker brown coat (to Lin-Manuel Miranda's right/your left who then pushes the box to the back) is the character that Jordan played.

 

The only other dancing he does in this song can be seen at 0:28 in this video. The move that the ensemble is doing in the background is the same move he does four times at the beginning of the song.

 

His big solo in Grease was just him walking around singing a song:

 

So whatever dance skills he has are not a result of being a Broadway star in Hamilton!

I don't care if he came into this show with prior dance training. I don't care about the growth arc. If I wanted to watch uncoordinated people shuffle their feet to music (ahem, Master P and that ilk of celeb contestant), I could go to any bar with music or club and witness the awkwardness.

 

 

Good point.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Andie1

[Andie1]

I love how people say "oh the AT was fine without any lifts"  if it were anyone else people would be asking why.  To me he's just another actor, not particularly good one since we had good in Season 20. That dance requires drama and if the guy is a stiff dancer he's gotta do something other than plod around without any finesse. 

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'd rather they spend that time learning the dance style they're doing that week instead of wasting three hours working on getting one lift to look halfway decent.

That's where I definitely differ.  People like Frankie, Nick and the like dance stiff as boards.  To put in something dramatic would really go a long way to stop the boredom of having to fast forward through their awful dances.  It would take years for these guys to look half way decent dancing, so if you can put in a lift or a trick on the dances that you're allowed to do so, go for it.  

Edited October 19, 2017 by Andie1

[Andie1]

12 hours ago, Emily-D said:

If Jordan was female he’d be a shock elimination around week 7-8. 

I wouldn't be surprised if he's a shock elimination anyways. The way people are falling for an actor with an aversion to good footwork, will probably knock him out.   Nobody watches for good dancing

[kitcloudkicker]

1 hour ago, bealled said:

I think the criticism of Jordan is valid. Corbin received a lot of backlash and calls of ringer, and Jordan essentially has the same background as Corbin. So if Corbin was a huge ringer, then so is Jordan. Plus, it's funny everyone is downplaying Broadway and theater experience yet whenever a gymnast or ice skater is on, everyone cries foul

I guess my perspective is that I like having the gymnasts and ice skaters around, and always defend them, so I'd rather more people stop complaining about them than more people start complaining about Jordan. 

Everybody come dance! I like watching people that are committed, no matter where their starting point was. 

[crowceilidh]

Jordan will have to do something considerably more charming for me to accept the idea that he will win this season.  It's so rare that the best dancer wins as to be completely insignificant in my eyes.

Besides, as someone who has taken some dance, I'm here to tell you that acting is an integral part of good dancing and Frankie out-acts Jordan by miles.  It took me years to even be able to attempt to act when remembering the footing, the arm movement, the head position and the pattern and the musicality.  IMO, those people who discount the acting portion of dancing have never had serious dance lessons. 

Frankie is the guy who demonstrates the awesomeness of that portion of dancing - his dances are so enjoyable because he transforms while dancing (granted, shaky on the AT, but I think there was a dress accident or something, and if there was, that actually demonstrates my point).  So far, Jordan does not transform while dancing, he is just a very good dancer who reasonably underlines the tone/feel of the music, but acting, not particularly.

I want to like Drew more than I do.  He just seems to have 'I am going to lose' stamped all over him.  I like his dancing fine.

I like FRankie and was amazed by his ability to become much more sexy, but he still isn't my horse in this race.  It's an odd season that way.  I'm not sure who I'm rooting for.

[sinkwriter]

Quote

Yes it was a really cool song from Moana, and Jordan has a wicked high note

That was one wicked high note at the end, for sure. Daaaaamn. Nice control of his falsetto!

[Sd601]

Funny, I initially voted for Frankie week one. I thought he was adorable and I still look forward to his dances. I think Witney is a beautiful dancer--her quality of movement isn't as technical as others, but she's graceful and pretty to watch. Her pairing is Frankie is producing some great routines. 

But I've rewatched Jordan's more. I find him confident, graceful, and charming. Lindsay's not even my favorite pro, but I'm enjoying them together. A pairing that produces fantastic dances is the best part of this show. I dislike maks and think Meryl was a huge ringer, and yet they had some of the best dances that I still rewatch today. So I don't complain about unfair experience going in, since it doesn't always produce good routines. I just want to see great dancing.

anyway, I voted for Jordan and hope he's not a shock elimination. I'm looking forward to his freestyle. I loved his moana foxtrot this week. Has Frankie done foxtrot yet? Witney is good at choreographing those.

[Lady Calypso]

16 minutes ago, Sd601 said:

anyway, I voted for Jordan and hope he's not a shock elimination. I'm looking forward to his freestyle. I loved his moana foxtrot this week. Has Frankie done foxtrot yet? Witney is good at choreographing those.

Yeah, his very first dance was a Foxtrot. That was what got me hooked with Frankie/Witney, because she gave him good work and he delivered. 

[Andie1]

28 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Has Frankie done foxtrot yet? Witney is good at choreographing those.

Obviously not memorable enough.

[Andie1]

1 hour ago, crowceilidh said:

Besides, as someone who has taken some dance, I'm here to tell you that acting is an integral part of good dancing and Frankie out-acts Jordan by miles

We have yet to see any dramatic dances from Jordan aside from the brilliant contemporary. He was suitably "party" for the Samba, while you know Frankie was trying to be Joey Fatone which really isn't a very high bar.  Frankie's facial hair was more dramatic than he was on the AT. (I kept thinking how much better Ryker was as Captn Jack)    I reserve judgement on Jordan's ability to be dramatic  until I see a Paso or an AT.  Crossing my fingers a for a piece from Hamilton for the Paso if he doesn't get kicked out first by the magical elf. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Andie1

[Andie1]

1 hour ago, Sd601 said:

But I've rewatched Jordan's more. I find him confident, graceful, and charming. Lindsay's not even my favorite pro, but I'm enjoying them together. A pairing that produces fantastic dances is the best part of this show.

Agreed. For me this season is a bust without Jordan or Lindsey with Mark.  If they go I'm out. 

[boyznkatz]

55 minutes ago, Andie1 said:

Agreed. For me this season is a bust without Jordan or Lindsey with Mark.  If they go I'm out. 

Yep. I also like TO for some reason. He whines as much as everyone else but he seems genuine and I love Cheryl. Jordan is the only one who stays away from the "poor me" schtick though. That really seems to be the story this season and seems to be required to win.

Edited October 19, 2017 by boyznkatz

[Sd601]

1 hour ago, Andie1 said:

Obviously not memorable enough.

Haha! I actually voted for that dance! Now I remember 

[crossover]

2 hours ago, crowceilidh said:

Jordan will have to do something considerably more charming for me to accept the idea that he will win this season.  It's so rare that the best dancer wins as to be completely insignificant in my eyes.

I think Alfonso was the only male to win when he was the best dancer for the season? Probably based more on "favorite" than "best".  But, there are also a couple more non-DWTS traits tied to Jordan--male in early 20s and he's part of Disney.  I'd be surprised if he won.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

Because there is no footage of them fighting. Because I think that there may have been some tension in the past, off-camera, and this season is so dull with the lack of drama that they're creating it. They're making a little butting of heads into this whole massive "Maks and Vanessa hate each other! Read all about it in People!". Drama brings people in. I know I tend to watch more reality shows when I'm promised drama in the ads or in media detailing it.

I suspected from the start it was a publicity stunt. It may not have started out that way but I suspect the show is eating up the publicity and Maks and Vanessa are in on the whole plan to perpetuate it by deliberately maintaining radio silence about the issue on their social feeds. It helps fuel the speculation and rumors and that means more people paying attention and hopefully tuning in to see some of the fireworks.

[Andie1]

1 hour ago, boyznkatz said:

Jordan is the only one who stays away from the "poor me" schtick though. That really seems to be the story this season and seems to be required to win.

Yep, young black males who aren't football players aren't allowed to have a sob story. So Jordan did the hopeful adoption story.

33 minutes ago, crossover said:

Probably based more on "favorite" than "best".

Alfonso was a two-fer... He was that cute little child who danced with Michael Jackson, and he was the nerdy Carleton, so he was popular.  He was the best dancer that season but people don't care about dancers. And keeping with the theme that non-football player black males on this show can't have a sob story, Alfonso's memorable year was being Carleton.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Andie1

[boyznkatz]

15 minutes ago, Andie1 said:

Yep, young black males who aren't football players aren't allowed to have a sob story. So Jordan did the hopeful adoption story.

True but it seems like there are more pity parties than usual this season. Speaking of Alfonso, I thought he complained about his injuries every week when he was on the show. It now seems like a requisite to win.

[Andie1]

2 minutes ago, boyznkatz said:

True but it seems like there are more pity parties than usual this season. Speaking of Alfonso, I thought he complained about his injuries every week when he was on the show. It now seems like a requisite to win.

Don't get me wrong, Alfonso is the biggest cheesiest actor of them all, apart from the Carleton and the jive I wasn't overly impressed with the guy and I didn't vote for him.  But the whining is more for the hosting jobs that came later.  However for the "formalized" sob story of Most Memorable Year, that was absent from Carleton's repertoire.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Andie1

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, kitcloudkicker said:

I guess my perspective is that I like having the gymnasts and ice skaters around, and always defend them, so I'd rather more people stop complaining about them than more people start complaining about Jordan. 

Everybody come dance! I like watching people that are committed, no matter where their starting point was. 

Same here. I defended the presence and voted for Joey McIntyre back in S1 when people were complaining that it wasn't fair that he was on the show because he'd been in a boy band. Funny how that changed in S2 when people voted for Nick's brother Drew (still cracking up that this is the season when we have to specify which Sasha, Linds(a/e)y, Drew, etc. we're talking about!). 

Same goes for Jennifer Grey (who was accused of having an unfair advantage because she was a "professional dancer," due to the fact that she learned ONE DANCE and did that ONE DANCE multiple times in different costumes for ONE MOVIE), Nicole Scherzinger, Zendaya, Alfonso, and all the gymnasts/ice skaters who were "too good" from the beginning of the season. I'd rather watch them perform competent routines every week than sit through any of the male contestants who can barely walk in a straight line without tripping over their own feet while they alternate between posing and getting dragged around the floor by their pro. I'm here to watch dancing.

Yes, Jordan was good from week 1 and I'm totally fine with that. I usually get bored for at least the first month while the uncoordinated deadweight celebs are eliminated. I always find myself wishing we could have a quadruple elimination in the early weeks.

I'm the one who brought up lifts not being a requirement in AT. I said it because in gymnastics, for example, there are things you MUST do in each type of routine. For example, you have to do a full turn on the beam. In contrast, on DWTS there are elements for each dance style that you CAN do but you don't HAVE to do. I've seen samba routines without any samba rolls and it's okay because the pros aren't told that there's anything specific that they must include for each style.

That's why I didn't mind Frankie not having a lift in his routine this week. It's not because he's my favorite contestant this season either.  I've never complained about other celebs lacking lifts in their AT. I don't like faffing about or the celebs posing while their pros literally dance circles around them. Other than that, I'm generally fine with the routines as long as they have multiple elements from the dance style they're supposed to be doing. But I can't think of anything specific from a certain style that would make me livid if they didn't include it in their routine. YMMV of course. 

[calipiano81]

Go Lindsey and Mark!

I just wanted to give them a shoutout amongst all the Jordan and Frankie talk. LOL

I feel Lindsey has been given challenging choreography every week and she's been handling it all wonderfully. I also really enjoy her personality, musicality, and performance quality.

Even though Lindsey may not be as technically perfect as Jordan, IMO Lindsey/Mark are equally as strong as Jordan/Lindsay.

[crowceilidh]

I wish I liked Lindsey more, because then Mark would be my horse this season -- his choreo has been delightful. I wish he was dancing it with someone different.

[PBGamer89]

i have no issues with ringers, i've supported and voted for many female ringers.

My issue lies in that the male ringers (even though its not as many) don't get nearly the hate or backlash.

Jordan will probably win, however, I think maybe his general lack of fanbase could land him 2nd or 3rd.

It could also be why his scores have been a bit higher than the rest, to compensate and many people have noticed Lindsey/Mark being underscored. Maybe she's getting a lot of votes.

Edited October 20, 2017 by PBGamer89

[Andie1]

IMHO Lindsey and Mark were scored fine, it's just that Frankie was overscored.  He should at least be third with that terrible footwork. 

[calipiano81]

For me, Lindsey is dance-wise on par with Mark's last partner Paige (though each has her own technical strengths and weaknesses) and Mark's choreography for both ladies has IMO been at the same high level. However, Lindsey seems to have an even more demographic-friendly personality and profession than Paige, so I have been puzzled by the lukewarm reception here towards Lindsey when I remember that this board back in S22 was rather enthusiastic about Paige.

[Andie1]

1 hour ago, PBGamer89 said:

Jordan will probably win, however, I think maybe his general lack of fanbase could land him 2nd or 3rd.

Jordan would be a surprising win, especially since this show has a general hostility towards good dancers, because the audience have been conditioned to expect a non-existent growth arc to help them explain why they voted for someone they used to watch on tv. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Andie1

[Andie1]

39 minutes ago, calipiano81 said:

For me, Lindsey is dance-wise on par with Mark's last partner Paige (though each has her own technical strengths and weaknesses) and Mark's choreography for both ladies has IMO been at the same high level. However, Lindsey seems to have an even more demographic-friendly personality and profession than Paige, so I have been puzzled by the lukewarm reception here towards Lindsey when I remember that this board back in S22 was rather enthusiastic about Paige.

 I think Paige was stronger technically,  but she was considered an underdog, this audience loves underdogs and  she was not a lock for the finals.  Lindsey is a front runner.  Front runners get kicked around.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Andie1

[Andie1]

12 hours ago, kitcloudkicker said:

Corbin was a huge ringer, then so is Jordan.

Mario Lopez thought his shit didn't stink but never corrected his lack of heel leads. So far, I think Jordan is a better ballroom dancer than Corbin,  why ?  I think it's because of his attitude. What used to annoy me about ringers is they didn't try to dance like a ballroom dancer, they  would show the pro some moves. Corbin taught his teacher Jazz on the show, while not really paying attention to the details of ballroom and latin that could have made him better at the style. 

Jordan so far is giving over completely to his instructor, he wants to learn new dance styles and he has no background in them, he's not cutting corners and he recognizes he has to follow the pro.  That's what I like, respect for the integrity of the style and the expertise of the instructor.