S06.E01: Fallout

[JamieLynn832002]

I think the "buddy" thing is partially Oliver's awkwardness/complete lack of knowledge on how to be a father at all, let alone to a traumatized 12 year old he barely knows. He call him kiddo at one point too and it was also awkward but I think (hope) it's supposed to be.

[WindofChange]

1 hour ago, Jacks-Son said:

On a trivial point, why does Oliver call William "Buddy"?

I think he calls William "Kiddo"? I don't recall him calling him Buddy but I may be mistaken.

[insomniadreams88]

Didn’t SA say in an interview they originally had Oliver calling William “sport”? I’ll take “buddy” or “kiddo” over that even though I’d prefer none of them really. After all the Mysons - in what 2 episodes? - William should only be called by his name from now on. 

[bethy]

I guess it depends on what you're used to. I didn't register "buddy" as anything other than a vast improvement over "MY SON!" But then, I call my nephews "bud" or "buddy" sometimes. Calling him "son" would come across as stiff and formal to me.  I think it was Oliver's attempt at connection with William, and I was fine with that.

[Featherhat]

Yes, I've heard parents and uncles/aunts etc refer to a kid as "buddy" and kiddo also didn't register as wrong. He was awkwardly attempting to connect and be friendly but casual. A lot of the time "son" comes across really stilted, especially when William isn't ready to acknowledge/address Oliver as "Dad" himself. Sport might have worked but again IMO its more awkward than what they went with, though I do think they should move on to Will or at least William in the show pretty damn quick. Just no more Myson ever again. 

Not that I'm anxious to go too much more into the storyline but I am kind of interested to know if William's grandparents put up a custody fight considering the circumstances. I suppose that's being left for when they get bored of the storyline and ship him off to stay with them for a while, better than Thea's constant conferences. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

In a few shows I saw men being or acting like a paternal figure calling kids like that so I didn't find it weird..of course in real life here no one would call a kid that but in the context of a tv show it didn't stand out to me.

[tv echo]

Bamford is still shooting for that elusive Emmy nod. Hence, the long tracking shot of Dinah, the Oliver jump off the bridge, the Wild Dog fall, the big fight scenes, etc.

I really think that he should've stayed head of stunts and left the episode directing to others.

Edited October 15, 2017 by tv echo

[tv echo]

8 hours ago, insomniadreams88 said:

Didn’t SA say in an interview they originally had Oliver calling William “sport”? I’ll take “buddy” or “kiddo” over that even though I’d prefer none of them really. After all the Mysons - in what 2 episodes? - William should only be called by his name from now on. 

Yes. Also, I think they didn't have Oliver call him something like "Kiddo" because that would be too similar to Slade's use of "Kid."

-- On exploring Oliver's paternal side, SA: "First of all, I’d be a little more worried if [Oliver’s son] was like five or six, but we’re playing him as like a sixth or seven grader. Jack has been super equal to the task and it’s just been great. I remember when I read the [premiere] and it was just a bunch of Oliver calling William 'Sport.' Like, 'Hey, Sport!' And I got [co-showrunner] Wendy Mericle on the phone and she goes, 'I know what you’re going to say. I know what you’re going to say. Oliver’s never going to call him Sport. You find what you’re comfortable calling him. It can be what you call your [own] kid, it can be "Buddy," it doesn’t matter.' ... Immediately after that my first full day of work was a full day with Jack, and I was really taken with it — and, you take this with a grain of salt, apparently the studio and the network were really taken with it, too. So I think it’s a really interesting dynamic for Oliver to have to examine." (Oct. 5, 2017 TVLine article, page 7 of New Spoilers thread)

ETA: Whenever I hear someone say, "Sport," I always think of The Great Gatsby.

Edited October 15, 2017 by tv echo

[Trisha]

13 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Meh, All I can say to that tweet/twitter account is Haters will hate. Arrow has never pretended to be a Games of Thrones level of production and anyone who has been expected that 6 years later should have figured that out abut 5 to 6 years earlier. Were there direction problem with this episode? Yes. But that guy admits to never watching the show so it seems disingenuous to take one clip out of context and make assumptions about the whole show, especially when it seems less about the actual production values and more about having a go at Emily as an actress while glossing over the flat or wooden line deliveries of ALL of them in the scene. So I could see why the redditors would have clasped on to that. So yeah, haters will hate. ?‍♀️

I think it's more than a 'haters gonna hate' thing (for me, anyway). I love this show, but when watching this ep I found that scene to be objectively bad. I think it was a combo of directing, editing, and acting (or, more accurately, how they were directed to act). It's weird because I really like some of the stuff Bam Bam does, like the long, tracking one shots (the bridge, Oliver's speech), how he shoots the bunker in a way that makes it seem bigger than other directors (including how he always seems to have the characters enter/exit from different places other than just the elevator), GA's balletic entrances/exits, and the way he puts the camera really low during fights (like the one in the bunker). But he fails at the non-flashy storytelling moments, like the discovery of Thea's body, or what should be a simple stunt fall. It's almost like he needs a co-director to handle the more workhorse stuff like moving characters from point A to point B in a way that the audience gets, and he can focus on the flourishes. 

Edited October 15, 2017 by Trisha
tvecho already covered SA's quote about calling William "kiddo"

[popgoesculture]

3 hours ago, tv echo said:

I really think that he should've stayed head of stunts and left the episode directing to others.

Is he still the head of stunts as well? It's just super frustrating because I find his direction really awful, and I think the stunts have also been sliding for the past few years. I would say after season 2, there was a decline in the level of stunts. I'm not sure if it's because they started incorporating more people or what, but I thought the premiere was incredibly odd in terms of stunts. I didn't realize it was Oliver when he came out of the water. I couldn't tell what Diggle was doing/not doing. And the canaries basically circled each other and screamed on repeat, ad nauseum. I would think that as the head of stunts that he would be better equipped to shoot action, not less. 

There have been a lot of average directors -- those who don't detract from the show, but also don't do anything exceptional to stand out -- and then some really excellent ones for me, like Glen Winter, Lexi Alexander, and Antonio Negret. 

[Balaclava]

On 10/14/2017 at 3:47 PM, quarks said:

 

"....Three, try to move Dinah up to the status of co-leader of the team, ready to defy Oliver when needed..."

 ".... Arrow seems to be taking the opposite approach with Dinah: making her equally if not more competent than Oliver, while simultaneously putting her immediately under his leadership."

"....It will be interesting to see if Arrow really explores this, coming up - not just with Oliver and Dinah, but Dinah and the rest of the team. There's some potentially rich stuff here, but I think we can all agree that Arrow has wasted potentially rich stuff before." 

 

I probably cut too much of your post but i'm curious, what exactly is the point of making Dinah team co-leader? What's the endgame and what does it mean in S6 overall plan? 

Furthermore, making her co-leader doesn't mean they have to erase, in a way, Diggle and Felicity co-leadership? 

Edited October 15, 2017 by Balaclava

[DeadZeus]

"Priority is Black Siren. In custody and unharmed!"

Then proceeds ignore BS for the remainder of the scene...

Same in the bunker.. He deals with anything except Black Siren.

I get what they are trying to do... BS is Dinah's enemy (even though Oliver is WAY more personally connected to her) but it rly annoys me the way they set these scenes up where Oliver is literally 2meters away not doing anything to Black Siren...

Also, something they still do wrong, Oliver uses skill and bow and arrow to take everyone down.. Then Quentin comes along and just shoots ppl... Oliver is supposed to be able to do what normal cops can't.. Yet Quentin keeps tagging along  and taking ppl out just as effectively LOL!

[Chaser]

The impression I’ve gotten is that they are trying to correct Laurel. She’s got the right name now. Out of the mask she’s Law&Order and Quentin’s new daughter, in the mask she’s got the cry and equal to Oliver in hand to hand combat. They are trying to get the Black Canary and the Laurel Lance they wanted from the start. 

I don’t see them as trying to erase Diggle and Felicity importance to Oliver, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they try to bring Dinah up to OTA level in the leadership aspect.  

[Balaclava]

23 minutes ago, Chaser said:

The impression I’ve gotten is that they are trying to correct Laurel. She’s got the right name now. Out of the mask she’s Law&Order and Quentin’s new daughter, in the mask she’s got the cry and equal to Oliver in hand to hand combat. They are trying to get the Black Canary and the Laurel Lance they wanted from the start. 

I don’t see them as trying to erase Diggle and Felicity importance to Oliver, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they try to bring Dinah up to OTA level in the leadership aspect.  

Correct Laurel by giving Dinah the same writing they did for Laurel isn't going to fix any of their terrible writing and mistakes with LL. What it's going to do is annoy people that otherwise where fine with Dinah's presence and ruin her for a lot of people. 

If they're in fact trying to bring Dinah up to OTA level in leadership by acting pissed/smug/mad/etc at Oliver/Diggle/Felicity i don't think i need to say what exactly is going to end up happening.

I'm not even being bias here because despite being a major OTA fan i'm perfectly capable or discussing speculation and ideas without standing to much on my favorite side of the scale, what i am trying to do is figure out what 's up with arrow writers that makes them so stubborn to the point of turning viewers against them and chars in a blink of an eye.

Just curious....

[ComicFan777]

I think the writers want to move Dinah into a sorta co-leader type role because they want the GA butting heads with BC dynamic.  It used to be Diggle and Felicity disagreeing with Oliver - now OTA is more in sync with each other in some ways since they've walked in each other's shoes and have a deeper understanding of each other, so we don't see them fight in the same way as they did in S1 and S2 - it's not to say that they never disagree, but they discuss rather than take stances because they all operate in shades of grey.  The writers probably want to bring the kind of arguing/fighting dynamic back with Dinah (coming from the law perspective) taking the moral high ground while being on equal footing with Oliver.  I think they wanted to do this with Laurel, but Oliver/Laurel fighting always had a bitterness/hatred to it - they've tried to correct this with Dinah by removing that awful history.

Edited October 15, 2017 by ComicFan777

[Velocity23]

This type of set-up for Dinah is bound to fail.  Especially if she is gonna be reckless just like LL was. And it seems it will come at a cost for the team, at least according to WM.

[catrox14]

I was rewatching this and I am SO ANNOYED that the show has no one correcting poor Quentin and reminding him that Black Siren is NOT HIS FLESH AND BLOOD. She is NOT HIS child. Not Earth1 Quentin.

Making Quentin constantly say Laurel is his little girl after making it clear that he did not see her that way when he clocked her and said "I needed to do that for SO MANY REASONS" will not make me see Black Siren as Earth 1 Laurel Lance.

Why are they doing this to Quentin? STOP IT. Just STOP IT.

Edited October 16, 2017 by catrox14
Queting is not Quentin LOL

[Primal Slayer]

If Digg takes up the suit, I dont know what the point of it is. Are the general public suddenly going to forget that GA has been a white guy with a beard the entire time. (they probably will though)

After reading reviews around the web I feel like the overall take away from the premiere:

-It was ok, nothing really mind blowing

-The wrap up of the explosion was weak

-The Canary battle was fun

-No one really gets what age William is suppose to be

-No one wants a Diggle/Dinah romance

[insomniadreams88]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I was rewatching this and I am SO ANNOYED that the show has no one correcting poor Quentin and reminding him that Black Siren is NOT HIS FLESH AND BLOOD. She is NOT HIS child. Not Earth1 Quentin.

Making Queting constantly say Laurel is his little girl after making it clear that he did not see her that way when he clocked her and said "I needed to do that for SO MANY REASONS" will not make me see Black Siren as Earth 1 Laurel Lance.

Why do are they doing this to Quentin? STOP IT. Just STOP IT.

Yep. I feel like if they really wanted to do that in present-day Star City, they should have had BS save him on Lian Yu after the explosion. Then maybe he could have been torn about her. On the one hand, he knows she’s not his daughter. But on the other hand, she saved his life.

Instead, it’s like the moment he thought he killed her, he went, “dead Lance daughter=my daughter.”

[Primal Slayer]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was rewatching this and I am SO ANNOYED that the show has no one correcting poor Quentin and reminding him that Black Siren is NOT HIS FLESH AND BLOOD. She is NOT HIS child. Not Earth1 Quentin.

Making Queting constantly say Laurel is his little girl after making it clear that he did not see her that way when he clocked her and said "I needed to do that for SO MANY REASONS" will not make me see Black Siren as Earth 1 Laurel Lance.

Why do are they doing this to Quentin? STOP IT. Just STOP IT.

I think he tried to talk himself into "she's not my daughter" but her possibly being dead made him throw that out and that he can't leave "Laurel" dead. He probably feels immense guilt over his daughter dying and sees this as a way of saving her even though she is not his Laurel.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I think he tried to talk himself into "she's not my daughter" but her possibly being dead made him throw that out and that he can't leave "Laurel" dead. He probably feels immense guilt over his daughter dying and sees this as a way of saving her even though she is not his Laurel.

But she could have been dead after he clocked her in the head and left her there. Why would shooting her make it different? Is Quentin too stupid to think a head injury wouldn't have killed her?

IMO, this is a big narrative shift that the show is intentionally doing to make us think there is some kind of redemption for E1 LL via Black Siren. And if they are not doing that, and it's supposed to be about Quentin having a mental break then why isn't Oliver, especially, telling him that BS is not his daughter? Why are they supporting his kind of delusional thinking here?

[Primal Slayer]

Just now, catrox14 said:

But she could have been dead after he clocked her in the head and left her there. Why would shooting her make it different? Is Quentin too stupid to think a head injury wouldn't have killed her?

IMO, this is a big narrative shift that the show is intentionally doing to make us think there is some kind of redemption for E1 LL via Black Siren. And if they are not doing that, and it's supposed to be about Quentin having a mental break then why isn't Oliver, especially, telling him that BS is not his daughter? Why are they supporting his kind of delusional thinking here?

The island wasn't blowing up when he clocked her. And I think he knows how to knock someone out without causing any severe damage.

And Oliver did tell Quentin that this wasn't his Laurel to which Quentin basically said "I CANT HEAR YOU I CANT HEAR YOU YES SHE IS"

I think it is an easy position to take as an audience member but if it were real life, there would be a lot of Quentins out there.

[statsgirl]

The fact that he's the one who "killed" her, even if it was to save Dinah, makes it worse. Remember he wanted to kill Sara on DD's advice, Laurel stopped him and now Sara's fine?  There could be a whole lot of messed up thinking in Quentin's head..

6 hours ago, popgoesculture said:

Is he still the head of stunts as well? It's just super frustrating because I find his direction really awful, and I think the stunts have also been sliding for the past few years. I would say after season 2, there was a decline in the level of stunts. I'm not sure if it's because they started incorporating more people or what, but I thought the premiere was incredibly odd in terms of stunts. I didn't realize it was Oliver when he came out of the water. I couldn't tell what Diggle was doing/not doing. And the canaries basically circled each other and screamed on repeat, ad nauseum. I would think that as the head of stunts that he would be better equipped to shoot action, not less. 

There have been a lot of average directors -- those who don't detract from the show, but also don't do anything exceptional to stand out -- and then some really excellent ones for me, like Glen Winter, Lexi Alexander, and Antonio Negret. 

Based on his interviews and tweets as well as his directing, I don't think Bam Bam has the cognitive complexity to be a great director.  His vision of Arrow is pretty simplistic (costumes! stunts! superheroes!)   Glen Winter does those awesome scene changes (like the shot of Felicity's hand morphing into the shot of Oliver's hand as if they were holding hands) and EBR said that Lexi Alexander moves all around the set, crouching and standing to see which is the best angle to shoot.  I get them impression that Bam Bam either doesn't get or doesn't care about the emotional stuff and he has difficulty seeing anything from other than his POV.  I really don't understand why they keep raving about and promoting him.

3 hours ago, ComicFan777 said:

I think the writers want to move Dinah into a sorta co-leader type role because they want the GA butting heads with BC dynamic.  It used to be Diggle and Felicity disagreeing with Oliver - now OTA is more in sync with each other in some ways since they've walked in each other's shoes and have a deeper understanding of each other, so we don't see them fight in the same way as they did in S1 and S2 - it's not to say that they never disagree, but they discuss rather than take stances because they all operate in shades of grey.  The writers probably want to bring the kind of arguing/fighting dynamic back with Dinah (coming from the law perspective) taking the moral high ground while being on equal footing with Oliver.  I think they wanted to do this with Laurel, but Oliver/Laurel fighting always had a bitterness/hatred to it - they've tried to correct this with Dinah by removing that awful history.

But there was never really that pure butting of heads with Oliver vs Diggle or Felicity.  Diggle stated his feelings based on his experience; Felicity lay down her limits from the first time she joined the lair.  When they disagreed with Oliver, there was a level of richness to it because they had already emotionally connected and because you knew that Diggle or Felicity wouldn't be fighting with him unless it was super important.

Oliver and Dinah are purely butting heads because there is no relationship between them It's exactly like it was with Laurel and sometimes with Sara -- pure surface fighting.  It doesn't make sense except to pander to the comic stans that BC is GA's equal.

41 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

After reading reviews around the web I feel like the overall take away from the premiere:

-The Canary battle was fun

The first battle.  Maybe even the second battle.  But by the third Canary battle, I was so over it.  How much longer are they going to keep them fighting on a purely superficial level?  At least give us some "there but for the grace of God go I" from either of the two.

Edited October 15, 2017 by statsgirl

[JamieLynn832002]

30 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

If Digg takes up the suit, I dont know what the point of it is. Are the general public suddenly going to forget that GA has been a white guy with a beard the entire time. (they probably will though)

Yeah, Star(ling) City has always seemed especially stupid in this regard. Most seemed to actually believe Roy who was half a foot shorter and had a much slighter build was The Arrow. It's different than Dig/Oliver but no one seemed to notice when The Arrow was suddenly black in seasons 1 and 3 so it'd probably work. Apparently, if you put on the hood, the city will instantly believe you always wore it, even if you have no resemblance to the previous wearer.

[Primal Slayer]

For me the difference between Sara and Siren is that Sara was basically a wild animal, if she were able to communicate with Quentin he would've seen her in a totally different light and I think he would feel the same way about Siren if she were just doing what she was doing without showing any kind of humanity (manipulative or not). Though having both daughters die is bound to do a zinger on anyone.

And I agree about the Canary battle, I like them but this is the last one I need for at least the next 5-8 episodes. I much rather have them exchange quips with one another and fight other people.

[ComicFan777]

Quote

But there was never really that pure butting of heads with Oliver vs Diggle or Felicity.  Diggle stated his feelings based on his experience; Felicity lay down her limits from the first time she joined the lair.  When they disagreed with Oliver, there was a level of richness to it because they had already emotionally connected and because you knew that Diggle or Felicity wouldn't be fighting with him unless it was super important.

Oliver and Dinah are purely butting heads because there is no relationship between them It's exactly like it was with Laurel and sometimes with Sara -- pure surface fighting.  It doesn't make sense except to pander to the comic stans that BC is GA's equal.

That is exactly what it is - that is what made OTA special.  If Dinah is put in a sorta co-leader role, I think it would feel unearned because it's as if she's saying, "Hey, I'm new here, but I know better than you," - discounting all the experience OTA has gained over the years.  But from what we have seen so far, Dinah has been inserted into Laurel's place in almost every way, so yeah, we'd be in the exact same place as before - the writers would be doing this simply for comic canon dynamics even if it makes no sense here - like the 100th episode.

Edited October 15, 2017 by ComicFan777

[quarks]

22 hours ago, LeighAn said:

Meh.  All I can say to that tweet/twitter account is Haters will hate. Arrow has never pretended to be a Games of Thrones level of production and anyone who has been expected that 6 years later should have figured that out abut 5 to 6 years earlier. Were there direction problem with this episode? Yes. But that guy admits to never watching the show so it seems disingenuous to take one clip out of context and make assumptions about the whole show, especially when it seems less about the actual production values and more about having a go at Emily as an actress while glossing over the flat or wooden line deliveries of ALL of them in the scene. So I could see why the redditors would have clasped on to that. So yeah, haters will hate. ?‍♀️

Answering in the Behind the Scenes thread.

 

5 hours ago, Balaclava said:

I probably cut too much of your post but i'm curious, what exactly is the point of making Dinah team co-leader? What's the endgame and what does it mean in S6 overall plan? 

Furthermore, making her co-leader doesn't mean they have to erase, in a way, Diggle and Felicity co-leadership? 

Diane Nelson of DC has frequently spoken of the need to showcase strong women and show them as leaders in comics and affiliated material.

It would perhaps be unkind and unfair for me to note that she generally says this right after Disney releases press releases announcing increased sales/projected increased sales for Black Widow, Gamora and Rey merchandise, so I won't.

[statsgirl]

28 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

For me the difference between Sara and Siren is that Sara was basically a wild animal, if she were able to communicate with Quentin he would've seen her in a totally different light and I think he would feel the same way about Siren if she were just doing what she was doing without showing any kind of humanity (manipulative or not). Though having both daughters die is bound to do a zinger on anyone.

I agree that there is a difference between Sara and Siren.  But at the most basic level, they are both people Quentin wanted to kill.  Sara was able to be completely redeemed -- what is it's the same with Black Siren but he just didn't wait long enough or try hard enough?  In Siren's case it isn't even that she's a wild animal, she looks like his Laurel and maybe could have been if she hadn't gone down the wrong path.  Even Quentin's Laurel made bad decisions (e.g. drinking, beating up the guy with a baseball bat).

It's enough to send a man back to the bottle.

[Guest]

I have to wonder if Quentin should even really be on this show anymore. I mean, how many times do we have to see him pushed to his emotional limit because one of his daughters is back from the dead? And now they're doing it with someone who isn't even his daughter. IDK, it's the same with Thea being injured/in a coma. We've done this before. It's boring.

[TrueMyth]

2 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I have to wonder if Quentin should even really be on this show anymore. I mean, how many times do we have to see him pushed to his emotional limit because one of his daughters is back from the dead? And now they're doing it with someone who isn't even his daughter. IDK, it's the same with Thea being injured/in a coma. We've done this before. It's boring.

Co-signed.  They could have had Lance in a coma and Thea upset about killing Laurel.  It would retread Thea's murder angst, but in a different way.  Also, she would have shot an arrow which would give Black Canary parallels.  It would also build a relationship between Thea and Dinah.  If they do want depth to Black Siren, she could have visited Lance in the hospital, shading her with a little grey.

[Hiveminder]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was rewatching this and I am SO ANNOYED that the show has no one correcting poor Quentin and reminding him that Black Siren is NOT HIS FLESH AND BLOOD. She is NOT HIS child. Not Earth1 Quentin.

Making Quentin constantly say Laurel is his little girl after making it clear that he did not see her that way when he clocked her and said "I needed to do that for SO MANY REASONS" will not make me see Black Siren as Earth 1 Laurel Lance.

Why do are they doing this to Quentin? STOP IT. Just STOP IT.

Oliver did try to tell him that, but Quentin didn’t want to hear it. 

3 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

For me the difference between Sara and Siren is that Sara was basically a wild animal, if she were able to communicate with Quentin he would've seen her in a totally different light and I think he would feel the same way about Siren if she were just doing what she was doing without showing any kind of humanity (manipulative or not). Though having both daughters die is bound to do a zinger on anyone.

And I agree about the Canary battle, I like them but this is the last one I need for at least the next 5-8 episodes. I much rather have them exchange quips with one another and fight other people.

Another difference between Sara and BS is that Quentin never felt the level of responsibility for Sara’s death that he did for Laurel’s. Darkh killed Laurel ‘because’ of Quentin. (Also cause he was evil.) Add in that Quentin thought he killed BS. That’s a nasty head trip. 

 

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I agree that there is a difference between Sara and Siren.  But at the most basic level, they are both people Quentin wanted to kill.  Sara was able to be completely redeemed -- what is it's the same with Black Siren but he just didn't wait long enough or try hard enough?  In Siren's case it isn't even that she's a wild animal, she looks like his Laurel and maybe could have been if she hadn't gone down the wrong path.  Even Quentin's Laurel made bad decisions (e.g. drinking, beating up the guy with a baseball bat).

It's enough to send a man back to the bottle.

That’s a good point that Quentin wanted to kill Sara before he saw evidence that she could be redeemed. Now, with BS, he has that example of Sara too look back on. His opinion in a similar situation should be different now. 

I disagree though, that Quentin really wanted to kill BS. There’s a difference between saying you don’t care if your daughters evil doppelgänger dies and realizing that you just shot another version of your daughter and she’s dead. 

As viewers of a fictional show, we can sit here and say that this isn’t really Laurel and the characters are dumb for feeling like she is, but if we were in that situation I think at least 90% of us would have significant difficulties with keeping a mental distinction between our dead loved one and the person who is basically their identical twin with the same name, similar history, and probably very familiar mannerisms. 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Hiveminder said:

Oliver did try to tell him that, but Quentin didn’t want to hear it. 

When did he tell him that? I legit don't remember. Can you remind me?

[Primal Slayer]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When did he tell him that? I legit don't remember. Can you remind me?

Starting around 1:30

[Chaser]

Lance should be denying that terrorist has any resemblance to his daughter. That would make sense and lines up with S5.

I feel bad for PB. He's so much better than this.

[KirkB]

On a conscious level of course Quentin knows this is not HIS Laurel. The one whose diapers he helped change, and whose first steps he probably witnessed. But in every other aspect it might as well be. It IS Laurel Lance, daughter of Quentin and Dinah Lance. She may be a violent psychopath who wants to destroy the city and everyone in it but he's still going to see his baby girl every time he looks at her. That doesn't mean he shouldn't try and stop her but I have a hard time believing anyone would think it'd be easy for him to put a bullet between what is, for all intents and purposes, his daughter's eyes.

[Chaser]

An emotional shock yes. Being devasted at having to kill her sure. Being wrecked I get.

Looking at a mass murdering psychopath and literally saying parallel universes are crap, that's my daughter. That doesn't work for me. 

Edited October 16, 2017 by Chaser

[insomniadreams88]

8 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Lance should be denying that terrorist has any resemblance to his daughter. That would make sense and lines up with S5.

I feel bad for PB. He's so much better than this.

Yep. Especially since this Laurel just blew up the police station. He should hate her because she could be ruining his actual daughter's reputation if anyone sees her going around, killing people and destroying buildings. Now, he doesn't have to want her dead. He can just want her locked up for good or sent back to her Earth, but to say she's his daughter? Nope. 

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Starting around 1:30

Thank you! I. I was thinking about later.

At least Oliver tried, but then later on he didn't correct him again.

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, Primal Slayer said:

Starting around 1:30

Baby’s learning. :*)

[Hiveminder]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Thank you! I. I was thinking about later.

At least Oliver tried, but then later on he didn't correct him again.

I think Oliver understood that Quentin was not going to listen, under any circumstances. 

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

An emotional shock yes. Being devasted at having to kill her sure. Being wrecked I get.

Looking at a mass murdering psychopath and literally saying parallel universes are crap, that's my daughter. That doesn't work for me. 

Emotions make people irrational. Quentin has experienced the (multiple) deaths of both of his daughters, the dissolution of his marriage due in part to his inability to process his grief over Sara’s first death, guilt over Laurel’s death, the stress of being a detective in a high crime city like Star City, the stress of being involved with Team Arrow, and the stress of just being a resident of Star City. He’s also a recovering alcoholic who had a fairly recent relapse. 

There’s only so much a person can take before they no longer have the emotional reserves to react rationally in the face of their alternate earth evil daughter clone. Hell, I make irrational decisions when I’m hungry. 

[catrox14]

Just now, Hiveminder said:

Hell, I make irrational decisions when I’m hungry. 

There is a E2 Big Belly Burger cow joke in here but I can't quite work it out.

[BkWurm1]

12 hours ago, Balaclava said:

I probably cut too much of your post but i'm curious, what exactly is the point of making Dinah team co-leader? What's the endgame and what does it mean in S6 overall plan? 

Furthermore, making her co-leader doesn't mean they have to erase, in a way, Diggle and Felicity co-leadership? 

It seems to me that the upcoming plot stuff might manage to push Diggle and Felicity out the the co-leadership position at least for a while.  Diggle with his PTSD  or neurological injury (still not sure on that one) and Felicity with both

Spoiler

being busy with setting up a business

but also if Olver is under the microscope and accused of being the GA, then Felicity who clearly seems is going to be in a close relationship with him eventually, would then also fall under the same scrutiny, so if Oliver for some reason can't lead, then it's likely Felicity could be taken out by those same circumstances.  

7 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I think he tried to talk himself into "she's not my daughter" but her possibly being dead made him throw that out and that he can't leave "Laurel" dead. He probably feels immense guilt over his daughter dying and sees this as a way of saving her even though she is not his Laurel.

The part that makes me not buy it though is he did leave her for dead.  And he didn't have to.  I'm still not over the fact that both of them just left her to bleed out, evil fowl or not.  Really crappy nonheroic move.  I don't care that she isn't his daughter.  He shouldn't feel guilty for shooting her but yeah, absolutely earned the guilt over walking away and not trying to save her at all.  

[insomniadreams88]

23 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

The part that makes me not buy it though is he did leave her for dead.  And he didn't have to.  I'm still not over the fact that both of them just left her to bleed out, evil fowl or not. 

Yeah, I don’t understand this. Did neither of them check for a pulse? Just assume once she went down, “oh, she’s dead, let’s go”? Did they see a whole lot of blood that we didn’t to make them assume she died/would die? That and BS opening her eyes when the mystery man showed up are just confusing. 

[strikera0]

6 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I have to wonder if Quentin should even really be on this show anymore. I mean, how many times do we have to see him pushed to his emotional limit because one of his daughters is back from the dead? And now they're doing it with someone who isn't even his daughter. IDK, it's the same with Thea being injured/in a coma. We've done this before. It's boring.

PB is the best actor on the show, but Quentin should have died in season 4. The writers have been stuck on the repeat button with regards to his character since practically the first season. When I saw that shot of him at the bar, all I could do was roll my eyes and it all spiralled from there. 

[Featherhat]

18 minutes ago, strikera0 said:

PB is the best actor on the show, but Quentin should have died in season 4. The writers have been stuck on the repeat button with regards to his character since practically the first season. When I saw that shot of him at the bar, all I could do was roll my eyes and it all spiralled from there. 

I think the big reason he didn't die on Lian Yu was so he could participate in this storyline. For whatever reason KC is back as a regular and they needed something for her to do and play off of other than a BC vs BS rematch every week. It doesn't seem like it's going to be Oliver, at least not yet, so Lance it is and why he's suddenly all "the multiverse is a load of crap". And it is theoretically traumatic for him to have to deal with the evil doppelganger of his dead daughter and contemplate drinking but year it's lather rinse and repeat for him, especially since last year's daughter is in a coma. Also that the theme of this half season is fathers so he does fit right in. Presumably and unfortunately he probably going to consider going anti vigilantes/Oliver again at some point since that's another part of his repeat storyline. 

Otherwise I do think they might have killed him off since his other daughter is on a different show and can time travel if they want him to guest star (please!) and WH's screentime has been cut back to the bone for whatever reason. 

[DrSpaceman10]

7 hours ago, Angel12d said:

I have to wonder if Quentin should even really be on this show anymore. I mean, how many times do we have to see him pushed to his emotional limit because one of his daughters is back from the dead? And now they're doing it with someone who isn't even his daughter. IDK, it's the same with Thea being injured/in a coma. We've done this before. It's boring.

Plus, unqualified canaries trying to take over the team, never seen that before.

 

 

[millennium]

On 10/12/2017 at 10:43 PM, GenieinTX said:

Really not happy with the addition of the kid.  Damn show, don't you know that is always the death knell?  This show was skating toward more annoying than enjoyable anyway, and then they added an obnoxious kid and more Oliver man pain?  UGH!

This!  It's the Cousin Oliver syndrome, except in this case it's Son of Oliver.  Picturing tedious plots where Oliver is TORN between his crimefighting activities and missing the kid's science fair.   Or Oliver agonizing over whether he tells the kid he's Green Arrow.   Or Oliver trying to come up with dumb excuses why dad is out every night.   No, no, no, no, no!   

Please show, KILL Quentin Lance.  I'm sick of his self pity, his anguish, his alcoholism and his five o'clock shadow.  He's Schleprock all grown up.   He adds NOTHING to the show.  Die, Quentin, die!

[Guest]

7 hours ago, DrSpaceman10 said:

Plus, unqualified canaries trying to take over the team, never seen that before.

I know, right?

[GHScorpiosRule]

How can William MySon not know or be aware that Oliver is the Arrow? Did his fear and terror of being held by Chase blind him to Ollie's suit? I know he prefers Flash to Green Arrow, but I guess the fear and thinking him to be "The Bad Man" (seriously, what 12 year old talks like that? Instead of saying the jerk who killed my mom/I blame for my mom being dead because he didn't save her) also made him forget?

[way2interested]

13 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

How can William MySon not know or be aware that Oliver is the Arrow? Did his fear and terror of being held by Chase blind him to Ollie's suit? I know he prefers Flash to Green Arrow, but I guess the fear and thinking him to be "The Bad Man" (seriously, what 12 year old talks like that? Instead of saying the jerk who killed my mom/I blame for my mom being dead because he didn't save her) also made him forget?

He does know? 

Spoiler

A promo had him asking Oliver if he was going to be spending more time as Oliver over the "other guy" and point out how Oliver goes out and risks his life every night.

Edited October 16, 2017 by way2interested