GH History Lessons: Because History is Always Repeating Itself

[ulkis]

Only the power of his acting and charisma could overcome that dutch paint can boy cut.

[Dandesun]

 

No, that was Guza. I think Labine may have introduced Carly but that was it.

 

God that's right... and me, like an innocent fawn, thought that Guza's return was going to be a totally awesome thing. (Again, AJ and Carly's friendship was very close to being the only thing good Culliton was writing in between Guza terms.)

 

How wrong I was. What halcyon days those were.

[ulkis]

1996 was great. I thought his return in 1998 was pretty good too. The official "all went to crap" date for me is when JJ left. Not that there wasn't some crappy stuff after that and decent stuff afterwards, but for me that was when I could look back in hindsight and see where it never really got quite back on track ever again.

[Dandesun]

 

The official "all went to crap" date for me is when JJ left.

 

I couldn't give you a date, necessarily. But I would be enraged... enraged I tell you... at the 'anytime AJ's around Michael he never stops crying' bullshit. I'm a girl that has been around kids all of her life. Two younger sisters, lots of younger cousins, baby sat all the time... including the more 'challenging' families with finicky, moody, shy, what-have-you kids and no one ever cried constantly the way Michael did.

 

Seriously, anyone who cried that much should probably have been taken to the doctor because it was simply not normal. Of course, it was Guza's first foray into the Jason Morgan is the Most Awesome Being in the History of Ever... and also my Mary Sue Self-Insertion Character! Whee!

 

I would get so angry with that show that I would just bellow about the injustice of it all after watching it... as my family just gave me long-suffering silent stares and then carried on with normal life. And then one day I said out loud: I don't have to watch this shit!

 

And that's when I stopped. Things would make me curious over the years... Brenda's various returns (I didn't watch the most recent one and am I ever glad... what the fuck was that?!); Jax and Alexis getting married; I did look into Jax/Carly because I simply could not believe that it was real and was kind of horrified to learn that they actually had real chemistry despite my continual feeling that it was a pairing that made no sense in any continuity. And, of course, when the OLTL characters first crossed over... but I knew where that was going from jump so it wasn't enough. Still, I needed my Todd/Blair fix. After she left when he asked her to marry him I didn't even tune into the last Blair visit... knew that wasn't going to be worth it.

 

But I've never been able to find anything worth investing in to tune in regularly since the 90s.

[ulkis]

 

I couldn't give you a date, necessarily. But I would be enraged... enraged I tell you... at the 'anytime AJ's around Michael he never stops crying' bullshit. I'm a girl that has been around kids all of her life. Two younger sisters, lots of younger cousins, baby sat all the time... including the more 'challenging' families with finicky, moody, shy, what-have-you kids and no one ever cried constantly the way Michael did.

 

Me too, and all that happened right around the time JJ left. I'm telling ya, that's when it all went mostly down the drain. ;) It happened when Carly moved into the Quartermaine mansion, so it was somewhere around February 99, and I know she was still living there in April which was when JJ left, cause that episode she was blah blah-ing about how awful it was in the mansion and how she missed Jason and then she and Jason had a pretty hot kiss actually. But the fake baby crying was still annoying as fuck.

 

I wonder why Guza didn't write Carly having a miscarriage. imo, it seemed from interviews and the writing he never wanted Carly to have a baby that early. (Cullitan was the one who got Carly pregnant.)

Edited October 30, 2014 by ulkis

[Francie]

I loved the reveal about Carly's identity. Carly had never held Michael, she'd been back for a while but you had scenes of her having someone else pick him up all the time and it was sad. And they were all trapped together in the storm, with the power out and Bobby finally talks Carly into holding him, and it looks like Carly is going to tell her the truth, but then Virginia is there and Carly calls her "Mama" and Bobbie looks at this woman, who she knows adopted her daughter, and puts it together herself.

It was epic.

Back then we had some moments that truly were epic.

 

Now, when Ron declares on twitter every other Friday that the day's show will be "epic," all I can do is snort.

[HeatLifer]

Back then we had some moments that truly were epic.

Now, when Ron declares on twitter every other Friday that the day's show will be "epic," all I can do is snort.

For real. He couldn't touch GH in the '90s if he TRIED.

[ouinason]

I agree with Ulkis, who's name I never type right the first time no matter how many boards we are on together, that things fell apart with JJ's departure. I don't think it was necessarily causal, but there was just this shift in things at that time that was not positive. So many stories that were building up into good stuff sort of fell flat and gears shifted. Jason got holier and holier after that time. He was already up there with a harp on the clouds, but the true deification really amped the hell up after that point. A lot of the function that Lucky served with other characters fell on him in a way. Liz and Emily especially focused on him and I was not a fan of any of that. No sir.

[Francie]

1996 was great. I thought his return in 1998 was pretty good too. The official "all went to crap" date for me is when JJ left. Not that there wasn't some crappy stuff after that and decent stuff afterwards, but for me that was when I could look back in hindsight and see where it never really got quite back on track ever again.

I absolutely agree with this.  They wrote JJ off so horribly and so stupidly.  JJ's last scenes with Genie and Tony are so heart touching.  You can see the genuine fondness and respect.  I hold those moments so dear.

 

There was no reason to not send off Lucky and Liz to New York with their flattened, used subway token. It would have given the show a great -- and easy -- reason to write for Genie's and Tony's frequent vacations (off to visit Lucky!  or Lucky called and needs bail money after some scheme/prank!). Either Liz or Lucky could have returned either together or alone after that.  IMHO, the character of Liz had a good run and it was a good place to write her out.

 

All that brainwashing stuff with JY was unnecessary. Helena as a Buffy-style big bad?  Before that, she couldn't even get Luke to take the nude picture of her down from the bar!  And while Tony's and Genie's handling of the material in processing Lucky's death was admirable, it was painful to watch more than it was entertaining. Especially as we knew Lucky was alive, it all was so mercenary by the TPTB and came across and cloying and in-organic.  Looking bad, it seems like that was the start of the "that's too simple; we need something BIG here" rationales for not writing more simply, realistically, and satisfyingly (that's the same justification Ron likes to use for having Robin be kidnapped time and again).

 

I stopped watching by Christmas of 1999. Turning one of my favorite sets -- the charming, cozy, Spencer living room -- into a white McMansion-style mess was the final straw.  Actually, putting the fireplace where the dining room used to be and claiming it was just "re-decorating" was the final straw for me.  We all have our limits!

 

Truthfully, though, I was barely hanging on by a thread at that point.  The show suffered so much then from what it does now -- a lack of heart. There no longer was any family in Port Charles whom I wanted to see celebrate Christmas. They were no longer "my" family at that point.

 

Edited to add:

I just had to go back and re-watch Luke and Lucky's goodbye scene from 1999. And I couldn't help but tear up again. Sorry for the poor-ish quality, but I highly recommend it:

 

http://youtu.be/IAUA1Bczqrc?t=1m

 

[spoiler-ish alert, since it's from 15 years ago] And ending a heartfelt and serious monologue with "How bad can a guy with your record collection be?" is the type of humor that Ron can only dream of writing.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Francie

[SlovakPrincess]

Looking bad, it seems like that was the start of the "that's too simple; we need something BIG here" rationales for not writing more simply, realistically, and satisfyingly (that's the same justification Ron likes to use for having Robin be kidnapped time and again).

 

Yes, I would agree with that.  Ironically, though, all the "big" stuff they kept doing became less and less about an intricate story building to a climax, or about the characters themselves.  After a while, it was just one big event (that had no lasting impact on anything) after another. 

[TeeVee329]

All the talk the last day or two about Tony and the ruin he suffered at Carly's hands put me in the mood to seek this out, Tony seeing BJ on his death bed and finally finding some peace.  Lovely work from Brad Maule.

 

[nilyank]

 

AJ's anger at Carly was legitimate and she knew it which is why she was so desperate to latch onto Tony as a means of protecting herself. I'm trying to remember how the Carly/Tony relationship went south and I'm afraid I don't. I know I didn't much care for Tony suddenly going 'I'm taking this baby from you!' but it must have come from maybe finding out who she really was. Did Luke let it slip? I honestly don't remember that... I do recall Luke really trying to lean on Tony about ditching Carly, too, but the only thing I can think of that would have made Tony actively threaten to rip the baby from her was discovering her real identity, That had to have been it.

 

Tony decided that he wanted sole custody of the unborn baby and Carly's odd behavior towards the last months of pregnancy (due to AJ's discovery that he could be the father and Carly being Carly). Carly also found out that Tony was going after sole custody of Lucas  from Bobby (because she was married to Stefan and living on Wyndemere with Lucas).

 

Tony didn't find out about Carly and Bobby's connection until that night when Bobby found out.

Edited October 31, 2014 by nilyank

[ouinason]

I never really saw Tony's decision to go for full custody as very justified. It wasn't just Carly he was screwing with there. He was going for custody of Lucas too, as mentioned above, and was ratcheting up his general douchery to about a 15 at that time. Carly had no warning. They were still together, living together. They literally had an argument and at the end of it he was telling her he was going to take the baby. And this was after AJ had already threatened the same thing. I would have probably done the same thing she did at that moment, which was reach for the thing that would hurt him the most and tell him the kid ain't his. She couldn't just blab about AJ, so she grabbed for the only person she trusted, Jason.

In the grand scheme of things this has ruined the show on an epic level, but at the time, I laughed my ass off and thought it was awesome.

I hated Tony at that moment, for like the first time ever. Up until then I had been really sympathetic to all the crap that he'd gone through and sort of saw how he fell for Carly's crap, but suddenly he was being a dick and I stopped caring about him for a really long time.

[Chairperson Meow]

Hold the phone.

So, I'm digging for old GH clips and I found something interesting.

Jason dated Karen before Jagger. In fact, Karen dumped Jason for Jagger. AJ and Jagger fought because of it, and he defended Jason. So....why would Jason work for Sonny at all?

This better get brought up.

[sometimesfan]

That was Jason Q that dated Karen. Jason Morgan didn't care.

[TeeVee329]

I hated Tony at that moment, for like the first time ever. Up until then I had been really sympathetic to all the crap that he'd gone through and sort of saw how he fell for Carly's crap, but suddenly he was being a dick and I stopped caring about him for a really long time.

 

And I think that's what Guza was banking on - Tony and AJ being perceived as the "bad guys" to take some of the stink off of Carly, who started the whole mess in the first place.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Nice walk down memory lane. I hated Carly then but SB was able to bring some vulnerability to the character that made me love to hate her.

 

And I think that's what Guza was banking on - Tony and AJ being perceived as the "bad guys" to take some of the stink off of Carly, who started the whole mess in the first place.

 

AJ endured it for the longest and died for it, but the havoc for the unholy trio started with Tony. 

[ouinason]

Funnily it never changed my opinion of Carly, just soured me on Tony. And AJ always got my sympathy throughout. Oddly, I always liked SJB's Carly for what she was, a nasty little shit stirrer. There is a place for that on any soap. I saw Carly like I have mostly seen Sami on DAYS over the years, and I LIKED that. It wasn't until she hooked up with Sonny that shit went off the rails for her character. I always felt that they missed a huge oppertunity to do Carly and AJ scheming together, working together, and at least being parents together. That dynamic would have driven story for years. Instead we got S&C and I wanted them both to die. Still do.

[Harmony233]

I  was the opposite I thought Carly was horrible.She never paid for a damned thing in her life.Her whining about her poor childhood was ridclous and the fact this this stupid newbie ruined a good character like Tony.I kept on waiting for her to pay but nope.THis is when GH went to the dogs between her and sonnys whitewashing of all the shit they did.

[Chairperson Meow]

There's a scene I found on you tube. It's the night Micheal was concieved. SK and SJB had boatloads of chemistry. He was adorable flirting with her. And I'm sorry, but AJ over Jason all day everyday.

[TeeVee329]

Question - so were Carly and AJ already friends/knew each other before that night they banged and conceived Michael?  Or was that the first night they met?

[Ambrosefolly]

Question - so were Carly and AJ already friends/knew each other before that night they banged and conceived Michael?  Or was that the first night they met?

They met before, I think they flirted a little bit at the hospital.

[MSquared]

 

I find it ironic that we are having this discussion, Franco kidnapping Joss at a time when Carly is marrying Franco. Carly's union with Franco rivals Marty and Todd's, it is fucked up. One of those lines that should never be crossed even if soaps. I don't think RC could undo Cranco like they did Marty/Todd with real!Todd's return.

 

Hence why Ron crossed the line in the first place.  He can't resist pairing that should never have been.  And with Todd and Marty, being that it was essentially a re-rape, make it worse.  But with Carly and Franco, I'm sorry, but she knew who he really from the start.  I think she saw the breakdown he was having and, still thinking of him as Jason's twin, ran with it.  Then he must have been reeaaalllyy good in the sack, because she kept him around as a gigolo after his paternity was changed, then I think she just got in too deep with the secrets she shared with him about Sonny...and here we are.  

 

But, whatever,  Did you see the mad CHEMISTRY!  RoHo and llduds had on screen?!  [/sarcasm]

[TeeVee329]

But with Carly and Franco, I'm sorry, but she knew who he really from the start.  I think she saw the breakdown he was having and, still thinking of him as Jason's twin, ran with it.  Then he must have been reeaaalllyy good in the sack, because she kept him around as a gigolo after his paternity was changed.

 

I'm sad for me that I know this, but I don't think Carly and Franco banged until after it was revealed he was actually Heather and Scotty's kid.  She had been struggling to resist him for a while, but once that came out, it seemed to be the green light she needed.  Icky.

 

But yes, Carly never would have touched Franco.  Her first reaction - trying to have him killed - was the in-character one and the real Carly would have tried again.

Edited November 2, 2014 by TeeVee329

[CPP83]

That Carly basically hand waved off the fact he nearly killed Jason's son was so OOC to me, I mean it kept getting worse as time went on but that Ron seemed to use that particular moment to "endear" Franco to her was...astonishing really. If there was one thing which should have made Carly begin plotting the SERIAL KILLER's quick end it would have been that. It would have been an unforgivable act to the real Carly.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

 But with Carly and Franco, I'm sorry, but she knew who he really from the start. 

 

She knew who he was and that is why the pairing never should have been. Carly never forgot what Franco did to her family and friends. RC didn't care for the character enough to give her an out, as in an amnesia or you know, TUMOR.

 

That Carly basically hand waved off the fact he nearly killed Jason's son was so OOC to me, I mean it kept getting worse as time went on but that Ron seemed to use that particular moment to "endear" Franco to her was...astonishing really. If there was one thing which should have made Carly begin plotting the SERIAL KILLER's quick end it would have been that. It would have been an unforgivable act to the real Carly.

 

Yes it was. I dislike Carly but I tend to hand wave this crap with Franco because the head writer himself admits that it was purposely done for the benefit of Franco. The serial killer.

 

The long term character whose character was disregarded to go ahead with that happens to be Carly. I would cry foul if it was Maxie or Sam.

 

I hate nothing more than characters being used to blatantly prop another. Even if they are Carly. No matter how I personally feel about her, Carly is part of my GH and I resent RC using my characters to prop his failures. 

[Chairperson Meow]

I tend to think this isn't Franco, so it's how I get through the show. I saw og Franco. It's not above him to kidnap a cancer patient, brainwash him, and try to get him to take the fall for everything.

[TeeVee329]

Question - so Lulu knew for a while before Lucky did about Jason being Jake's father, right?  Did Lucky ever get to call her to the mat for that?

[WendyCR72]

Question - so Lulu knew for a while before Lucky did about Jason being Jake's father, right?  Did Lucky ever get to call her to the mat for that?

 

Please. That would have painted Jiz as villains. Even freaking LAURA basically patted Liz on the head for her lie. It was such bullshit.

[nilyank]

 

Question - so Lulu knew for a while before Lucky did about Jason being Jake's father, right?  Did Lucky ever get to call her to the mat for that?

 

Lulu felt really bad for Jason. Not her brother. The ungrateful cow. It's why I didn't care when she found out Liz and Nik. That was when she should have been conflicted, when her brothers were in the middle of the triangle. Never because of Jason.

[jennifer6973]

Didn't Lulu find out accidentally from Spinelli?

[Chairperson Meow]

That was when Lucky was Larry. The only good thing he got was hot tub sex with Sam or as it was once called "sex in the hot but".

[TeeVee329]

Here's another blast from the past: the Quartermaines find out about Emily and Sonny.  They're not nearly as grossed out as they should be.  Alice should be passing out puke buckets.

 

[TessHarding2]

^^ Ahh, my missing years. Good ol' bratty teenaged Lulu and loads of Q's.  I had stopped watching from about 2003 to 2010 and started up again because I missed Luke, but saw that is sure wasn't Luke.  I have watched most of those years on YT.  One thing that still sticks in my head is when Faith tied Skye to a chair and dumped her in the water.  There isn't enough Faith on YT for me to make real sense of it all, other than she was another twisted mobster and really vicious.

[Chairperson Meow]

Holy Jasus!

Did you guys know Sonny attacked Edward Quartermaine??????

As in tried to choke him with his tie?!

[UYI]

Brenda and Karen fight after Karen dumps Jason for Jagger:

 

 

Is the scene where Brenda took pictures of Karen while she was showering in the high school gym up on YT somewhere? I read about that long ago: As a way to humiliate Karen, Brenda, using her position as the school newspaper's photographer, took pictures of Karen while she was showering and put them in all the lockers of every guy at school. I don't think anyone ever found out it was her, though--I don't know if Robin would have stayed friends with her otherwise, because she was friends with Karen, too. And of course, today, that would be taken a LOT more seriously, given the greater focus on preventing bullying in school.

 

It also makes the fact that Brenda was at Jagger and Karen's wedding make a little more sense--I don't think Jagger would have ever forgiven her, let alone allowed her to attend their wedding, if he had known that.

 

Obviously, they wanted to keep VM on the show, but that's still a hell of a lot to come back from.

 

And of course, it looked even worse once it was revealed that Karen had been molested by Ray Conway and she began stripping for Sonny.

Edited November 3, 2014 by UYI

[testardo]

^^ Ahh, my missing years. Good ol' bratty teenaged Lulu and loads of Q's.  I had stopped watching from about 2003 to 2010 and started up again because I missed Luke, but saw that is sure wasn't Luke.  I have watched most of those years on YT.  One thing that still sticks in my head is when Faith tied Skye to a chair and dumped her in the water.  There isn't enough Faith on YT for me to make real sense of it all, other than she was another twisted mobster and really vicious.

 

Boy am I glad I was on the barge for this. To bad when they did have the Q's on they wrote them like idiots.

[ulkis]

Holy Jasus!

Did you guys know Sonny attacked Edward Quartermaine??????

As in tried to choke him with his tie?!

 

Yes. Honestly, Sonny's done much worse before and after that, so imo that's why it's not brought up too often. I'm pretty sure Edward said something nasty to "justify" it but I forget what it was.

[TeeVee329]

I'm pretty sure Edward said something nasty to "justify" it but I forget what it was.

 

I saw this clip when I found the one I posted above.  Edward was reading Sonny for filth because he (and Jason) had just gotten Justus killed.  A commenter noted that this was during the whole Sonny being bipolar storyline and that Ric was egging him on.  Not that that excuses him touching my beloved Edward.

[dubbel zout]

Ric was egging him on.

 

They always have someone else there so Sonny doesn't take all the blame, don't they? Rick egged him on to strangle Edward; Ava goaded Sonny into killing AJ—it's pathetic. It also makes Sonny look weak, IMO, not whatever they try to make him look otherwise.

[Chairperson Meow]

He literally took his tie off and tried to strangle an elderly man. How the hell does any network justify this bastard being a hero, anti hero, or star? I was on the barge then. I barely remember the Justus recast, but damn dude. If I were watching then, I'd have written to the network in protest. As a kid, I actually wrote a letter to ABC because I was disgusted Sonny didn't go to jail for what he did to Karen. All I got back was an autographed picture of Steve Burton. I threw it away.

[Tiger]

Was it the picture of Steve in his purple leotard?

[Chairperson Meow]

I wish lol. No it was like a Tiger Beat pic.

[SlovakPrincess]

As a way to humiliate Karen, Brenda, using her position as the school newspaper's photographer, took pictures of Karen while she was showering and put them in all the lockers of every guy at school. I don't think anyone ever found out it was her, though--I don't know if Robin would have stayed friends with her otherwise,

 

 

I think Brenda will take that secret with her to her grave.  I can't remember any big reveal where Karen got to slap Brenda for that crap, so I think nobody ever found out it was Brenda.  But Brenda lost out, regardless - she lost Jagger and then Jason didn't really want her, either.  And then Sonny came along and ruined her life.  So she basically paid the Karma Fairy on that one, I think. 

[Harmony233]

I remeber Karen slapping Brenda but not for that I forget why.

[Chairperson Meow]

Let's be real. Brenda was a bitch. We forget that because compared to Sonny and Carly, she was freaking amazing. But she was quite a bitch. Karen probably had a billion reasons to smack her. She did bang Jagger. I'd smack her for that alone.

Jagger was way hotter than Sonny. Still it.

[Dandesun]

 

Let's be real. Brenda was a bitch. We forget that because compared to Sonny and Carly, she was freaking amazing. But she was quite a bitch. Karen probably had a billion reasons to smack her. She did bang Jagger. I'd smack her for that alone.

 

Brenda also got a bit of a reformation story after her full on bitch stuff with Karen. Plus, I mean... she lost. She suffered the fate that bitches suffer when they go after a man who loves another. Triangles have losers and Brenda lost. She lost a few times there. So it was a bit easier to accept her shift. She went from bitchy bad girl to vixen with a heart which wasn't a huge unbelievable change.

 

But she should still end up with Jax and in my head, she with him and it was bad medication that had her going 'Oh poor Sonny' when he told her about setting a car bomb. Because... what?

[Chairperson Meow]

In my head, she did bang Dante......but only because Dante is hot. I never ever bought Brenda not hooking up with Dante. When she met Sonny, she was a teen and he was that man with candy your parents said not to speak to. But in my head, Lucian is AJ's kid.

She resides with Jax in Australia. He's weary of her, but they go to couples counseling.

[TeeVee329]

But in my head, Lucian is AJ's kid.

 

Lucian should have been Jax's kid.  Hell, he should have been anybody we knew's kid, not some random mobster who was already dead the first time we heard his name.

[Chairperson Meow]

Him being AJ's kid is a big gigantic FU to Sonny and gets a win to AJ. Also, it plays on the chemistry SK/VM had back in the day. Annnd the kid looked like a mini Stuart Damon.