These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[tessathereaper]

38 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

As also seen in seasons 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12 & the present. Somehow Dean is always the one that is in the wrong for having feelings; it's amazing. *sigh*

I know right?  And somehow he's always doing his feelings "wrong"(I mean beyond it being wrong that he has any feelings that haven't been pre-approved by Sam and/or Cas first) - meanwhile anything that gets done to him, and whatever the consequences of those things - hey who cares it's only Dean after all.

This isn't out of character for Cas, this is in character for Cas and Dean is well past his right to be bloody sick of it and say whatever he wants, as meanly as he wants to Castiel about it.

And I don't even dislilke Castiel, I do like their friendship but Cas doesn't deserve all the pity.  It's arrogance, that is the only reason for him to have kept this from Dean and Sam.  Believing he could deal with it better than the lowly humans, esp Dean of course, whom he otherwise holds to bloody impossible standards that Dean is supposed to constantly live up to.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

As also seen in seasons 4, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12 & the present.

Thank you for saying season 4... I thought I was alone on my little island in complaining about how Castiel treated Dean in season 4. For me, Cas' keeping important information from Dean until it was too late caused all sorts of problems that Dean could have guarded against if he'd known the truth.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

To be clear, my problem isn't with Dean and Cas the characters, it's with the writers.

While I agree Dean has every right to be pissed with Cas, I have zero doubt the writers gave Dean this line just to ramp up the Cas fans and let them have at Dean. I'm sure it gives them some sort of vicarious thrill. 

Also, given the things we actually saw take place this week,  the only way I accept that Dean would say this to Cas is if Mary is dead.

[ILoveReading]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

While I agree Dean has every right to be pissed with Cas, I have zero doubt the writers gave Dean this line just to ramp up the Cas fans and let them have at Dean. I'm sure it gives them some sort of vicarious thrill. 

Also, given the things we actually saw take place this week,  the only way I accept that Dean would say this to Cas is if Mary is dead.

I'm guessing that Dean is going to decide to kill Jack, and that is why he's still with him and Sam if Mary dies. Cas goes to find God.  God shows up and talks about what a precious little snow flake Jack is and takes Jack with him on vacation with him and AntiAmara.

Dean is the made the bad guy once again. 

[Myrelle]

58 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

While I agree Dean has every right to be pissed with Cas, I have zero doubt the writers gave Dean this line just to ramp up the Cas fans and let them have at Dean. I'm sure it gives them some sort of vicarious thrill

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean is the made the bad guy once again

It's the Berens/Dabb one-two punch and completely predictable comng from them.

Anything else I  could say would belong in B vs J, so I'll just reiterate what I said in the episode threads in the last two weeks.

I can't wait for this worst season ever to be over and it feels like it's never going to end. 

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

While I agree Dean has every right to be pissed with Cas, I have zero doubt the writers gave Dean this line just to ramp up the Cas fans and let them have at Dean. I'm sure it gives them some sort of vicarious thrill. 

Also, given the things we actually saw take place this week,  the only way I accept that Dean would say this to Cas is if Mary is dead.

Oh yes I agree with this, but that's a given. Any time Dean doesn't treat Cas and Sam like they are fragile wilting little flowers they know he's going to get "cancelled" by their fans until he's brought back into line genuflecting at their feet and apologizing.

[Aeryn13]

Predictable.

So it looks like Jack now has Lucifer in his head and has convos with his own Hallucifer? Yeesh, one part of that is from Sam in Season 7 and the other is from Dean a few episodes ago. I cared about a character having an archangel in their head when it was Dean and Michael, I don`t give a flying fuck about Jack and Lucifer. Good God, can`t the writers wine and dine Mark Pellegrino in their own time instead of this?

[BabySpinach]

Gotta say, I didn't realize how much I was enjoying the relative lack of Dean hate (on other platforms, not here) until it came roaring back with a vengeance. It's as predictable as clockwork now; any time Dean expresses anger or anything other than unconditional coddling love, he's the worst person to ever exist and needs to grovel and beg for forgiveness or be made to feel really guilty about having un-pretty feelings. And, of course, we'll get long, extended shots of the "victim's" sad woobie face to hammer in what a dick Dean is. FUCK. YOU. BERENS.

I'm kind of relieved that we'll only have to put up with this bullshit for another season. 

[Myrelle]

42 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

Gotta say, I didn't realize how much I was enjoying the relative lack of Dean hate (on other platforms, not here) until it came roaring back with a vengeance. It's as predictable as clockwork now; any time Dean expresses anger or anything other than unconditional coddling love, he's the worst person to ever exist and needs to grovel and beg for forgiveness or be made to feel really guilty about having un-pretty feelings. And, of course, we'll get long, extended shots of the "victim's" sad woobie face to hammer in what a dick Dean is. FUCK. YOU. BERENS.

I'm kind of relieved that we'll only have to put up with this bullshit for another season. 

If you keep repeating this to yourself, I bet you'll feel so much better. 😉

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

Gotta say, I didn't realize how much I was enjoying the relative lack of Dean hate (on other platforms, not here) until it came roaring back with a vengeance. It's as predictable as clockwork now; any time Dean expresses anger or anything other than unconditional coddling love, he's the worst person to ever exist and needs to grovel and beg for forgiveness or be made to feel really guilty about having un-pretty feelings. And, of course, we'll get long, extended shots of the "victim's" sad woobie face to hammer in what a dick Dean is. FUCK. YOU. BERENS.

I'm kind of relieved that we'll only have to put up with this bullshit for another season. 

Makes it all the sweeter that all that Dean hate cost them their show.

[Bobcatkitten]

What Dean Hate? What's going on?

[ILoveReading]

35 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

What Dean Hate? What's going on?

From the promo for next week.  Dean appears to tell Cas that hes' dead to him.

Edited April 5, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Aeryn13]

Dean is like the girl in a stupid love triangle. Whoever he is currently not "with", that side nails him to a cross.  

[Myrelle]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

From the promo for next week.  Dean appears to tell Cas that hes' dead to him.

And Casfans on tumblr and twitter are reacting as expected-and as I'd bet that Dabb and Berens expected them to.

And it won't matter why or that Dean will likely be the one to discover Mary's remains after Jack tries to cover up that he blew her to smithereens in such a way that she can't even be resurrected(hopefully, anyway). 

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean is like the girl in a stupid love triangle. Whoever he is currently not "with", that side nails him to a cross.  

This. So much.

[Bobcatkitten]

I saw the promo and just figured it comes out in a moment of frustration. I didn't see it as any big deal. Hhhmmm.

[tessathereaper]

39 minutes ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I saw the promo and just figured it comes out in a moment of frustration. I didn't see it as any big deal. Hhhmmm.

Of course it's a big deal. :)  Because it's Dean and he was remotely, even slightly, not perfectly gentle and immediately forgiving to the screw up whom they can't admit screwed up(whether that screw up be Castiel, Sam or Jack any particular week).  So Dean is the worst person in the world.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I saw the promo and just figured it comes out in a moment of frustration. I didn't see it as any big deal. Hhhmmm.

Taken to B v J as my response doesn't include the spoiler.

[gonzosgirrl]

Given the previews, I think I'm just gonna skip the rest of this season, at least 'live'.  I'll watch again when perhaps somebody (Jensen) gives a crap about what they're doing to Dean's character.

[ZennyKenny]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

While I agree Dean has every right to be pissed with Cas, I have zero doubt the writers gave Dean this line just to ramp up the Cas fans and let them have at Dean. I'm sure it gives them some sort of vicarious thrill. 

Also, given the things we actually saw take place this week,  the only way I accept that Dean would say this to Cas is if Mary is dead.

Yeah I'm betting Mary is dead.

This season is all a blur, so maybe I'm just missing something, but I don't understand how this is Cas' fault. Is it because he saw Jack kill the snake and didn't mention it to Dean? Cos why would Cas not tell the boys about it? Like that makes no sense. There's literally no reason not to. And Cas didn't know about the incident with the teenagers that happened last week, right?

And also, they were all worried about Jack not having a soul anymore and acting strange; Mary even brought it up in the car this episode. I mean Dean literally brought Jack to Donatello for this exact reason. So I guess I just don't see how Jack's potentially harmful behavior is some big secret that Cas was keeping from the boys.

(and again, just to re-iterate, this is a complaint about the writing, not an attack on Dean or Cas.)

Edited April 5, 2019 by ZennyKenny

[PAForrest]

Oh so Dean said something mean to woobie Cas in a moment of frustration. BFD. So Cas stans and other assorted fake Dean fans are going to hate on him. Just another day ending in a Y.  Besides, it's pretty obvious the writers threw that in there to purposely poke the fan base and get the exact reaction they're getting. Whatever.

As for Mary, I don't think she's dead. Maybe sent to the Nougat Sue version of the cornfield, but I don't think she's dead. Sadly, because I'm really itching to sing:

Ding dong the witch is dead! Which ol' witch? The Wicked Witch! Ding dong the Wicked Witch is deeeeeeeaaaaaaaaad!

Maybe by the end of the season.

[Lastcall]

24 minutes ago, PAForrest said:

Oh so Dean said something mean to woobie Cas in a moment of frustration. BFD. So Cas stans and other assorted fake Dean fans are going to hate on him. Just another day ending in a Y.  Besides, it's pretty obvious the writers threw that in there to purposely poke the fan base and get the exact reaction they're getting. Whatever.

As for Mary, I don't think she's dead. Maybe sent to the Nougat Sue version of the cornfield, but I don't think she's dead. Sadly, because I'm really itching to sing:

Ding dong the witch is dead! Which ol' witch? The Wicked Witch! Ding dong the Wicked Witch is deeeeeeeaaaaaaaaad!

Maybe by the end of the season.

Was planning on singing that myself but I really don’t think we will get that lucky. They would have to show a body and hunters funeral before I even consider it and even then I wouldn’t put it past them to do a Chuck resurrection. I’ve heard conflicting rumors on the next three and it’s getting harder to get reliable spoilers with some of the site closings. I heard Smith filmed at least one more episode this year and something about a Mary Mannequin (like there is a difference). I was hoping Dabb had been told to wrap up his stories (Nick,Mary and the Waywards) and thought it started with the AU Hunter purge but I’m guessing we will be stuck with that dead weight next year too.

[PAForrest]

1 minute ago, Lastcall said:

Was planning on singing that myself but I really don’t think we will get that lucky. They would have to show a body and hunters funeral before I even consider it and even then I wouldn’t put it past them to do a Chuck resurrection. I’ve heard conflicting rumors on the next three and it’s getting harder to get reliable spoilers with some of the site closings. I heard Smith filmed at least one more episode this year and something about a Mary Mannequin (like there is a difference). I was hoping Dabb had been told to wrap up his stories (Nick,Mary and the Waywards) and thought it started with the AU Hunter purge but I’m guessing we will be stuck with that dead weight next year too.

I'm still hoping we get rid of her by the end of the season. I don't know, maybe she's dead, but usually they show us the death scene and not just fade to black.

If they come back next week and Mary's just lying on the ground all dead and everything, after I sing the song, I will still think that was a weird non-climatic way to go about it.

[Lastcall]

1 minute ago, PAForrest said:

I'm still hoping we get rid of her by the end of the season. I don't know, maybe she's dead, but usually they show us the death scene and not just fade to black.

If they come back next week and Mary's just lying on the ground all dead and everything, after I sing the song, I will still think that was a weird non-climatic way to go about it.

There was also the spoiler of Dean crying alone in a field. Isn’t that 18? Only way he would do that is if he found a body, Mary vanishes too much for Dean to be that upset.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

Yeah I'm betting Mary is dead.

This season is all a blur, so maybe I'm just missing something, but I don't understand how this is Cas' fault. Is it because he saw Jack kill the snake and didn't mention it to Dean? Cos why would Cas not tell the boys about it? Like that makes no sense. There's literally no reason not to. And Cas didn't know about the incident with the teenagers that happened last week, right?

And also, they were all worried about Jack not having a soul anymore and acting strange; Mary even brought it up in the car this episode. I mean Dean literally brought Jack to Donatello for this exact reason. So I guess I just don't see how Jack's potentially harmful behavior is some big secret that Cas was keeping from the boys.

(and again, just to re-iterate, this is a complaint about the writing, not an attack on Dean or Cas.)

Yeah, they all know about him using up his soul (I think), but Cas, as an angel, should also be more aware? Or maybe, if Mary is really dead by Jack's hand, he's blaming Cas for Jack's existence on the whole? If he'd done his job keeping track of St. Mommy back in S11? 12? whenever she first gave him the slip in the diner, Jack would never have been born? Or maybe he's talking about Cas's deal with the Empty, and telling him to fuck off for guilting Dean out of the Malak Box when he is busy trading his life away himself? Who knows - nothing much makes sense in this show anymore.

[gonzosgirrl]

Maybe Cas scratched the Impala. 🙂

Or, if Nickifer isn't a Hellucination, maybe he picked up the meatsuit Jack and Mary left lying around and he killed Mary. Maybe Jack's "Mary" was trying to warn her.

[ZennyKenny]

34 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If he'd done his job keeping track of St. Mommy back in S11? 12? whenever she first gave him the slip in the diner, Jack would never have been born?

OMG I hated that so much!! But you make a good point; without proper context, it's difficult to tell exactly why Dean said that to him. it could have nothing to do with Jack.

Oh who am I kidding? Jack's the star of the show!

[Lastcall]

Anyone get the feeling that Jack is going to kill Chuck. It wouldn’t explain why Creation doesn’t cease (unless he kills Amara off screen) but when has continuity ever stopped them.

[Myrelle]

No way.

They love the Nougatbaby and think that everyone does and should.

I'm thinking more Cousin Oliver at this point,  though.

[Lastcall]

Just now, Myrelle said:

No way.

They love the Nougatbaby and think that everyone does and should.

I'm thinking more Cousin Oliver at this point,  though.

I always thought of Mary as Cousin Oliver. Jack more like Seven from Married with Children or pretty much any baby born on any sitcom in its waning years looking to get a shot in the arm.

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

Castiel has no reason not to tell them to keep them even more alert. 

Okay, this may be out there, but could this be going back to Castiel's reaction to soulless Sam in season 6? I made the easy, and for me more logical, conclusion that he mainly questioned getting Sam's soul back because it might somehow come back to him what he had done in reference to Sam and/or what he was doing with Crowley, but could Castiel have some kind of soft spot or empathy for soulless people / entities? Technically he doesn't have a soul either, so maybe he feels a kinship and wants to protect Jack even though he's soulless... sort of like how he was "protecting" Soulless Sam.

I mean I realize both soulless beings were / are dangerous, but maybe there is something to Castiel wanting to protect soulless beings. It's not helpful certainly, because Donatello aside, soulless beings are generally  troubled at the very least and more likely downright dangerous at worst... Even if they can pretend to be sort of normal - like Soulless Sam - that doesn't mean that they are normal or should be protected by Castiel like they are. I'm trying to remember if Cas was also overly protective of Donatello earlier. Hmm.

I'm gonna wonder about this now.

[Aeryn13]

And you know Sam will be the kind-hearted friend who defends poor Cas to make Dean look even meaner. 

I had accepted that the rest of the Season would be completely boring Nougatnatural with Nickifer-obsession and that Dean was thrown to the side. I had even accepted that we were only gonna get dumb comedy relief non-hunter Dean for the most part. But that on top of it they would be throwing in "lets make him be hated", that I did not see. But apparently Berens is like "hold my beer". 

Since the press release for the Finale says the brothers and Cas do bla bla bla together, I`m sure that "tiff" will be resolved in either episode 18 or 19 with Dean apologizing to poor little Cas.    

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And you know Sam will be the kind-hearted friend who defends poor Cas to make Dean look even meaner. 

The body language in the promo pictures suggests just that.  I even commented Sam and Dean looked like they were arguing about something.

One other thing I noticed about the sneak peak.  Sam was the only one with a computer.  Dean was once again standing around doing nothing while Sam did the investigating.

[Myrelle]

So...Who thinks that Mother Mary is indeed dead and not coming back?

I am going to go against the grain(I think) and say that I think she's gone for good. 

[ILoveReading]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So...Who thinks that Mother Mary is indeed dead and not coming back?

I am going to go against the grain(I think) and say that I think she's gone for good. 

I think she's dead based on spoilers we got from the con.

Kim Rhodes was asked who would be the hardest actor to lose.  She said it hasnt'  happened ye.  I doubt its a way ward.

There was a scene that sounded very much like Sam, Dean and Jack were building a funeral pyre.  There was mention of cutting down trees, plus Dean crying alone in the woods. 

So I think Mary is dead, its just the matter of who killed her.  Because if it was Jack why would Sam and Dean being with him and taking him to Mary's funeral. 

I think Lucifer will start as a hallucination and he'll trick Jack into resurrecting him and it will ultimately be Lucifer that kills Mary. 

I just hope we're not leading into around Sam is possessed by Lucifer story. 

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I just hope we're not leading into around Sam is possessed by Lucifer story.  

I've already braced myself for this eventuality, which I will be okay with ONLY if we get OG!Michael!Dean vs Samifer.

[gonzosgirrl]

Originally, I thought a Wayward, wished for Mary. I'm on board with it being Mary now, but on the fence as to who/how. If it isn't Hallucifer in the preview with Nougat Sue, then my bet is on Nickifer. I guess it's just a matter of who has the most influence, Dabb and his Nougat Sue, or BL and their unending fascination with Pellegrino/Nickifer. Since the network wants the young demo that Nougat Sue brings, my money is on Nickifer doing the deed, since there can't* be any coming back from killing Mary. Unless, with only one season to go, they are willing to have Nougat Sue go full on dark, with the notion that any Alex Calvert is a good Alex Calvert when it comes to keeping the young demo eyes tuned in.

*I say can't with the qualifier that this is Dabbernatural we're talking about, where anything is possible.

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Originally, I thought a Wayward, wished for Mary. I'm on board with it being Mary now, but on the fence as to who/how. If it isn't Hallucifer in the preview with Nougat Sue, then my bet is on Nickifer. I guess it's just a matter of who has the most influence, Dabb and his Nougat Sue, or BL and their unending fascination with Pellegrino/Nickifer. Since the network wants the young demo that Nougat Sue brings, my money is on Nickifer doing the deed, since there can't* be any coming back from killing Mary. Unless, with only one season to go, they are willing to have Nougat Sue go full on dark, with the notion that any Alex Calvert is a good Alex Calvert when it comes to keeping the young demo eyes tuned in.

*I say can't with the qualifier that this is Dabbernatural we're talking about, where anything is possible.

IMO, they will never taint Jack.  They're far too in love with their Mary Sue.

[Myrelle]

I think that they will claim that it was Lucifer in the Nougatbaby's head who killed Mary, thus keeping his hands  clean, for the most part.

I'm betting that that was Hallucifer we saw in the promo.

I think that Nick and Mother Mary will not be a part of s15(maybe SpiritMary will return at the end)but I'd bet that we're going to be stuck with Lucifer/Pellegrino and the Nougatbaby for the duration.

I think our only hope might lie in the thought/idea that we won't have them shoved down our throats as much or in the same fashion that they have been in the last 3 seasons if the Js input is  allowed or matters at all.

I can't believe that either one of them is happy that their lead actor/main character status has pretty much been usurped by these two recurring characters through the writing.

[SueB]

10 hours ago, Myrelle said:

So...Who thinks that Mother Mary is indeed dead and not coming back?

I am going to go against the grain(I think) and say that I think she's gone for good. 

As a doornail.  I think they look for Jack and Mary and Dean finally finds Mary's body, alone, in the woods.  It's an ignomious treatment of her that just puts more salt in the wound.  By the time he finds her body, he'll already think she's dead.  This will just make it so much worse.  

That's my theory, sticking with it.  Now we KNOW Sam Smith and Ruth were in 14.19.  So it could be ghost or flashback.  But I think she's dead.  Maybe her ghost leads Dean to her body. 

[BabySpinach]

5 hours ago, PinkChicken said:

IMO It really says something when most of the people who are still "positive" about this season, are, because they don't believe its quite over for Michael yet. If tptb understand that enough to use him for both the major hiatus cliffhangers WHY don't they (surely they do?) understand that enough to actually give the story the focus it deserves? 

Its not unusual for the show to completely redirect or pull it all together in the last 3-4 episodes of a season, and especially given how they recently just drop threads which they may or may not pick up, and how they handled the first Michael exit (by completely ignoring the issue and then accusing the characters us of doing the same when we absolutely didn't think that could possibly be ok at the time. The audience taking a shitty cop out at face value and the fact that apparently they know this and that the response was largely "would they really do that, ugh I guess they would?" *surprise! no they didn't for once* really isn't a compliment to the rest of the writing) so I don't think we can be sure of any spec at this point in time, at least from a narrative/foreshadowing perspective. They either drop hints like an anvils or give it away in interviews (they even gave away Michaels first return because they knew how mad people would be), or they outright lie in interviews and things come out of literally nowhere because they wanted to surprise us and couldn't figure out how to tie it into existing lore without giving it away. 

This year being the last hiatus and wanting to set up for whatever they decide to focus on next year might mean we are in for even more whiplash than usual (if the final season even makes Dabb change his plans at all). The most I think we can hope for is that now that they know it is the last season they may want to re-prioritise what gets the focus from here on out and possibly see that it really wouldn't be too hard to bring it back around. I don't want Lucifer back unless we get a Michael back too. And I don't want either back unless they acknowledge the importance of both the brothers in that story. 

This pretty much sums up my current struggles with this dumb fucking show. On one hand, I can't possibly imagine a season that just completely ignores one of its own GIANT hanging plot threads (Dean's only two deaths) a mere four episodes after establishing it. That would be unprecedented, even for this show. The first apparent rug pull in 14.02 eventually got followed up on (though with as little attention as the writers could possibly afford) and managed to yield a fantastic episode that appeared to set up the rest of the season. How could they just dump it all into the garbage like that?

On the other hand, it's all too easy to imagine the writers doing just this and simply never bringing up Billie again, or maybe retconning some stupid, contrived cop-out for why Dean's death books don't matter anymore. That brings up the glaring question of why that plot was set up in the first place, but who the hell knows? It's like the current TPTB are allergic to little words like "narrative payoff," "thematic development," or "character arcs."

I'm maybe 90% bitter and pessimistic at this point in the season, with 10% being the unshakable hunch (or mad hope) that Michael, the Malak box, and Dean's involvement with it just HAS to come back around again. It still won't be ideal, given how much screentime has already been wasted on Nougat Sue, but it will certainly be better than a completely Jack-focused mytharc finale. How the season ends will truly dictate my opinion on it as a whole.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I'm maybe 90% bitter and pessimistic at this point in the season, with 10% being the unshakable hunch (or mad hope) that Michael, the Malak box, and Dean's involvement with it just HAS to come back around again. It still won't be ideal, given how much screentime has already been wasted on Nougat Sue, but it will certainly be better than a completely Jack-focused mytharc finale. How the season ends will truly dictate my opinion on it as a whole.

I keep hoping that it will be like s9.  I despised that season when it started but after First Born it turned it around.  Then watching the season back as a whole, I could really see Dean's downward spiral right from episode 1.   I gained a whole new appreciation for it.   Now its my second favourite season. 

I wanted to hope Nilishm was going to turn the season around, but I couldn't let myself get those hopes up because Dabb just didn't seem interested in this story.  Unfortunately it played out exactly like I thought it would.   Vague tells that didn't match the show.  (Dean's barely sleeping, but we scenes of him snoring away).  Stock footage with no new info with an anticlimatic end.  The aftermath of ep 12, played out exactly like I thought it would.

13 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

On the other hand, it's all too easy to imagine the writers doing just this and simply never bringing up Billie again, or maybe retconning some stupid, contrived cop-out for why Dean's death books don't matter anymore. That brings up the glaring question of why that plot was set up in the first place, but who the hell knows? It's like the current TPTB are allergic to little words like "narrative payoff," "thematic development," or "character arcs."

I figure they'll explain it with, they changed once they'll change again.   As for the Michael, the ma'lak box, if they come into play I figure that will be a Sam storyline.   He's the one that is feeling all the guilt, over everything. 

Dean's valium seems to have erased the fact that he was even possessed from his mind by the amount he's been effected by it. 

This is why I have no hope for the next few eps. 

I figure they'll be about NougatSue.  Ending with a repeat of Alpha and Omega.  This time instead of Dean convincing Amara to help.  Cas will convince Chuck to help.   He'll make everything all better.

I have a speculation about Nilishm and why they introduced it but that belongs more in bitch/jerk. 

The way this show has been written since episode 14 almost reminds me of season 7.  When Sera knew she was on her way out she took the scorched earth approach and got rid of baby, Bobby, Bobb'y house, Frank, and Cas. 

It almost feels like Dabb is doing the same. With one stroke of the pen he dumped both brothers storyline.  Since then neither one really matters to the plot right now. It makes me wonder if Dabb might be on the way out.  (But then I tell myself he's just that bad a showrunner so I cant't count on that.).

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

That brings up the glaring question of why that plot was set up in the first place, but who the hell knows? It's like the current TPTB are allergic to little words like "narrative payoff," "thematic development," or "character arcs." 

If it's going like I suspect, it's ye olde bait and switch, because it will have only served Jack and Lucifer's story. It might even be leading to Samifer, but that would really undo Sam refusing Lucifer back in s11 which it seems like Dabb took great pains to make sure Sam got to do. At this point, Jack is essentially the quasi-Sam surrogate character. They MIGHT take Jack to full Anakin Skywalker but I don't think they will make it be because he was really evil all along. For me, theyvcould claim foreshadowing all the way back to early s13 with Jack watching the Clone Wars and him saying he doesn't like Anakin.

I don't believe this show will ever let Nickifer truly die unless it's for a final Samifer moment.

[Casseiopeia]

33 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If it's going like I suspect, it's ye olde bait and switch, because it will have only served Jack and Lucifer's story. It might even be leading to Samifer, but that would really undo Sam refusing Lucifer back in s11 which it seems like Dabb took great pains to make sure Sam got to do. At this point, Jack is essentially the quasi-Sam surrogate character. They MIGHT take Jack to full Anakin Skywalker but I don't think they will make it be because he was really evil all along. For me, theyvcould claim foreshadowing all the way back to early s13 with Jack watching the Clone Wars and him saying he doesn't like Anakin.

I don't believe this show will ever let Nickifer truly die unless it's for a final Samifer moment.

Do you think they might remember when Lucifer touched the bible it burned?  And when pregnant Kelly touched the bible it also burned.  Wouldn't that foretell that Jack is evil?  Dean was right!

[Lastcall]

It’s hard to speculate what the writers are going to do when they are so unpredictable (in the worst way). It is possible there was an edict from TPTB to take out all the garbage to make way for the J2 involved season. It would explain the AU massacre, the POSSIBLE death of Mary and Nick (I’ll believe it when I see it, told it and the actors are signed on somewhere else) and the chance Jack will be sent to the box. 

Since I don’t think we will EVER get that lucky. I think Dabb is going evil Jack. Mary could be technically dead but The last 3 episodes should be rather basic. I’m going with Mary “dies”, Deans mad at Jack so Jack goes evil. Jack kills Chuck and either raises the Sheddim (the azmodeus demons) or collapses heaven causing the dead to come back to earth. Lucifer comes back to temp Jack all next year. So that ticks all the boxes. Raised dead Mary, Omnipotent evil Jack, conniving funny Lucifer. We will see soon enough.

[gonzosgirrl]

I think everything depends on when Dabb & Co got the word of the series end date. If they knew in time to change/alter the season finale, then I expect possibly good things (and I'm using the word 'good' quite loosely). If not, then I am sure it will continue to be NougatNatural with a large side of Nickifer.

Once again, my only hope lies with Jensen's apparent excitement about the finale. My heart tells me he wouldn't set himself (and us) up for disappointment again after the debacle of last season.

[ILoveReading]

21 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

. Jack kills Chuck

I don't think this will happen due to network restrictions.   Chuck was supposed to die in season 11 but the network said no, they can't kill God.

[Bella-UK]

On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 4:20 PM, companionenvy said:

Cas was so much less adept at reading humanity than most of the other angels, but it is to be expected that someone who has adult intelligence but zero actual experience of the world wouldn't understand things like sarcasm, social cues, etc. 

Cas comes from a very different world to ours. Cas's has been an observer of our earth for million's of years. Being raised under an entirely different regime he isn't that accustomed to our traits. Its not until he really gets to know Sam and Dean that his views on us humans changed a hell of a lot. Especially when you think how many thousands of years he's been on earth. He's not so stiff and starchy and appears closed up and very unsocial at times, with a bit of encouragement and more socialising with humans, how its all turned around and shaped him, it's like he's become one of us.

[Lastcall]

52 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think this will happen due to network restrictions.   Chuck was supposed to die in season 11 but the network said no, they can't kill God.

Wow, I never heard that one. Was the intent still for Dean to turn Amara with the yellow crayon speech?

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

Wow, I never heard that one. Was the intent still for Dean to turn Amara with the yellow crayon speech?

I'm not sure.  But Jared, Jensen and Misha have made no secret that they weren't fans of the final few eps of s11.  Jensen talked about it at a con that the finale was a collaborative effort with him, Misha, Mark and Jared.  he said they never had as much input into a script.

I have no idea what Dabb's original intention were but I would really like to read the original copy of the script.

Edited April 9, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't think this will happen due to network restrictions.   Chuck was supposed to die in season 11 but the network said no, they can't kill God.

Jack has no reason to... that was Micheal's raison D'etre. Jack is missing his soul which is as critical to a nephilim's existence as his grace. I think he is deconstructing again just in a different way. He will probably go nuclear.