These Spoilers Suck: Bitter Speculation About SPN Spoilers

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

They shifted Mary into Sam's old role but from the get go he was way more protective.  He didn't like her hunting.  He didn't like her leaving.  He was anxious in the Foundry. He used Billie and made her a promise to regain access to the house in the hunter funeral episode.  He risked his life to save her from programming.  And he aooeasred to be kicking himself that he didn't sacrifice himself to push Lucifer through the rift before she did. At the time he was stunned by Cas death.  It was clear to me all bets were off regarding Mary last season so even though i recognize Dean's behavior as shocking on one levek i completeky understand it intellectually. I have been expecting him to do something reckless and crazy to save her.

They were emailing and aging word games.  Yes he was a hurt little boy for one hot minute but they had a connection and a relationship that made both Sam and Letch jealous

Except by the hunter funeral episode he was flat out pissed at Mary and stood up for himself and then again in 12.14 when it was discovered she was willing to let Cas die for the BMOL that he kicked her out of the bunker. Sure he still went to save her because it's his mom. It seemed to me you were saying that Dean had been in mania mode throughout s12 and into s13 about Mary which I didn't see at all. His only "manic" moment was really panic  after he saw her in the AW.

IMO, Dean acted that way with Kaia  because his own PTSD was triggered by seeing her tortured. I think it took him right back to his own Hell time, which was actually set up in 13.8.  And if the show delves more into Dean's Hell experience, then maybe I could see a case for Dark Dean, but they seem to be more interested in examining Sam's Hell trauma. not b v J just what the show introduced with Sam seeing Lucifer's true face. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Since you brought up season 10.   In Dark Dynasty Carver double down on signaling that Sam is the one off the rails and going dark.  This is film geek stuff... There is a gorgeous sequence in which they cut between Dean with Papa Styne and Crowley with Sam.  Dean and Crowley are in parallel situations; both are apparently incapacitated about to be killed.  This means Sam and Papa Styne are mirrored.  It is a big hint for anyone who has missed the many episodes where Sam has been doing bad things and going off of the rails that Sam is the brother that has truly gone dark this season.  

That was The Prisoner with Dean and Papa Styne and Sam and Crowley.  IMO Sam's dark side was there from 10.1 when he was shown torturing a demon and leading Lester to selling his soul (not his fault mind you but he abetted it to a degree

I'm only seeing one set up for Dean  in 13.2 and 13.3 with telling Jack he'd kill him and Sam telling Dean if Jack goes dark side it's his fault, so the dark part would be Dean influencing Jack more than Dean being the one doing the dark things. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I don't see Dean turning evil, or even going dark at this point.  Yes, after learning that Mary was still alive and being tortured, he lost it a bit and held a gun to a young girl's head to make her help them.  But I honestly don't believe that he thought for a minute that having her help them do something she did all the time would end up getting her killed.  In his mind, she had been to this world numerous times and lived to tell of it.  She was only supposed to help Jack find a way to get to Mary.  They never intended for her to go along.  She's the one who insisted they all go as a way to escape the angels.  Anyway, it was a plot device to show just how devastated Dean was by the news about Mary, and also a way to introduce the new Wayward character.  

As for Lucifer, I'm certainly not advocating any sort of redemption for him, but I just don't know what else they're going to do with him.  Short of having him killed, which I'm all for, letting him just stick around forever as his annoying dick self makes no sense.  Unless they ramp up Michael's level of evilness, there's really no one from this season's cast of evil doers that I need to see beyond this season.  

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

As for Lucifer, I'm certainly not advocating any sort of redemption for him, but I just don't know what else they're going to do with him.  Short of having him killed, which I'm all for, letting him just stick around forever as his annoying dick self makes no sense.  Unless they ramp up Michael's level of evilness, there's really no one from this season's cast of evil doers that I need to see beyond this season.  

And for me, if they make Michael more evil than Lucifer that still points to redemption for Lucifer because Michael is worse.

[MysteryGuest]

38 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And for me, if they make Michael more evil than Lucifer that still points to redemption for Lucifer because Michael is worse.

Maybe with Rowena's help, they'll find a way to replicate what happened in season 5 and both Michael and Lucifer will be locked back in a cage somewhere...permanently.

[Pondlass1]

I dunno, maybe there's something wrong with me. But Dean pulling a gun on Kaia didn't seem a big deal at all.  There's no way in hell he would've shot a young girl.  I could relate.  He'd just been told Mother was alive. He's berating himself for not having faith like Sam, and then he's told Mother's being tortured.  Remember - Dean gets hot real quick.  But he cools down quick too.

But, anyway, speculation that Dean might be going dark excites me.  It's about time something happened to the actual stars of the show.  With all these mustache-twirling characters thrown into the pot I'm expecting a  battle or something with many casualties in the finale. They might put Lucifer back into the cage for safe keeping in case they need him again.  

I'm not expecting the series to go beyond season 14.  They need to be building toward a climax now.  Hope they don't wimp out.

[MysteryGuest]

11 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I dunno, maybe there's something wrong with me. But Dean pulling a gun on Kaia didn't seem a big deal at all.  There's no way in hell he would've shot a young girl.  I could relate.  He'd just been told Mother was alive. He's berating himself for not having faith like Sam, and then he's told Mother's being tortured.  Remember - Dean gets hot real quick.  But he cools down quick too.

But, anyway, speculation that Dean might be going dark excites me.  It's about time something happened to the actual stars of the show.  With all these mustache-twirling characters thrown into the pot I'm expecting a  battle or something with many casualties in the finale. They might put Lucifer back into the cage for safe keeping in case they need him again.  

I'm not expecting the series to go beyond season 14.  They need to be building toward a climax now.  Hope they don't wimp out.

I wasn't as bothered by Dean's behavior as others were.  We were supposed to be shocked in the moment, since it wasn't like him, but I think that was just to point out his state of mind, and was never meant to have any lasting repercussions.

Both Sam and Dean have been "dark" this season, but it's been the depressed, hopeless sort of dark.  I don't want either of them to suddenly become bad people, but in light of all the evil around them, I'm ready for both of them to lose it a bit, and be a bit more dangerous than usual.  That would be fun to watch.  Every time Dean slams someone's head into a counter, someone is always shocked by his behavior.  Not me, I want more of that.  Treat the bad guys like bad guys.  

[trxr4kids]

19 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Yes Dean was looking for a way to save Sam in season 6 however he already knew how to open the cage. He didn't because the deleterious consequences were too great.

He knew how to open a portal that would suck vessels/archangels into the cage not how to extract someone. It seemed pretty clear to me that Michael couldn't fight the pull so all Dean would have accomplished by using the same method was to get sucked in too. That doesn't mean that whatever way he would have/could have found to rescue Sam and maybe Adam if given enough time, wouldn't also release Lucifer/ Michael or both.

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I dunno, maybe there's something wrong with me. But Dean pulling a gun on Kaia didn't seem a big deal at all.  There's no way in hell he would've shot a young girl.  I could relate.  He'd just been told Mother was alive. He's berating himself for not having faith like Sam, and then he's told Mother's being tortured.  Remember - Dean gets hot real quick.  But he cools down quick too.

Yeah, it didn't bother me either. I never once thought Kaia was in any danger from Dean, but more that Dean had just lost patience with it all knowing they had little time, and it was inevitable Kaia would help them, so he hurried things along.

More importantly, nor did I feel like Kaia felt like she was in any actual danger of Dean shooting her--I think Kaia was well aware Dean wouldn't shoot someone he needed to save his mother, but also knew he wasn't going to leave her alone so it was easier to go along and wait for an opportunity to escape. I never once felt like Kaia was frightened by Dean, but only scared she'd end up back in the bad place. That's why she was reluctant to help them, not because she felt like they were dangerous. But then, the angels created another problem and she got on board--with a little encouragement from Jack--in order to save herself.

TBH, I think, in the end, she realized she was in better hands with Sam and Dean than without them knowing that the angels would've probably killed her instead of making empty threats.

Edited February 24, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[Castiels Cat]

On 2/23/2018 at 7:53 PM, catrox14 said:

That was The Prisoner with Dean and Papa Styne and Sam and Crowley.  IMO Sam's dark side was there from 10.1 when he was shown torturing a demon and leading Lester to selling his soul (not his fault mind you but he abetted it to a degree

I'm only seeing one set up for Dean  in 13.2 and 13.3 with telling Jack he'd kill him and Sam telling Dean if Jack goes dark side it's his fault, so the dark part would be Dean influencing Jack more than Dean being the one doing the dark things. 

Definitely.  Sam was the darker brother all season.  Thanks for the correction. I am bad with titles.

[Lemuria]

On 2/23/2018 at 5:13 PM, trxr4kids said:

Dean said in S6 he had been looking for ways to get Sam out.

I agree only to the extent that Dean was looking for ways to get Sam out without letting the others out.  During that year, Dean had in his possession the means to open the Cage at any time:  he had the four rings and the invocation.  He chose not to use them because that would have let Lucifer and Michael out as well.

(This, to me, is not inconsistent with his being ticked at Sam for not even thinking about looking for him when Dean went to Purgatory.  Sam did not even try to find out where Dean was, much less try to get him out.  And unlike the end of Season 5, getting Dean out of Purgatory would not have restarted the Apocalypse.)

Edited February 26, 2018 by Lemuria

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Lemuria said:

And unlike the end of Season 5, getting Dean out of Purgatory would not have restarted the Apocalypse.

Moved to an appropriate thread. I forgot where I was for a moment.

Edited February 26, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[OnceSane]

Way off topic, y'all.  Back on it, please.

[Castiels Cat]

On 2/23/2018 at 7:25 PM, catrox14 said:

Except by the hunter funeral episode he was flat out pissed at Mary and stood up for himself and then again in 12.14 when it was discovered she was willing to let Cas die for the BMOL that he kicked her out of the bunker. Sure he still went to save her because it's his mom. It seemed to me you were saying that Dean had been in mania mode throughout s12 and into s13 about Mary which I didn't see at all. His only "manic" moment was really panic  after he saw her in the AW.

IMO, Dean acted that way with Kaia  because his own PTSD was triggered by seeing her tortured. I think it took him right back to his own Hell time, which was actually set up in 13.8.  And if the show delves more into Dean's Hell experience, then maybe I could see a case for Dark Dean, but they seem to be more interested in examining Sam's Hell trauma. not b v J just what the show introduced with Sam seeing Lucifer's true face. 

Hmm. I thought he told her to just leave in anger.  It was something he said because he felt hurt, betrayed and disappointed in her at that moment.  And he wasn't kicking her out per se as much as telling her to go away and hunt like she had been.  He was in no mood to talk or to hear excuses.

A big part of the Mary-Dean experience was both of them dealing with each other as adults when their feelings towards each other and the way they related to each other were stuck back in the early eighties.  

In true Winchester fashion  Mary was riddled with the guilt of how her actions affected her boys.  She ran away, a typical Sam move, and dealt wirh her pain by hunting non-stop, a typical Dean move.  Joining up with the BMOL was her way of fixing things however she never explained it.

Dean knew his mother only as an idealized memory.  She was never going to live up to that and she knew it.  

This all contributed to the power of the Dean-Mary scenes at the end of the season. 

Mary-Dean last season mirrored Sam-Dean in season's 1-5.  Hell she fell through a rift with Lucifer at the end of the season!!! However the mirroring of her arc to Sam's was hammered on all season.  Dean's angst was focused on her and he came running when she was in trouble and worried when he didn't hear from her. 

I  believe that they established that Dean is more manic about saving Mary than he was about Sam... meaning he will things he never would do before. 

Add to this the fact that they wrote Mary as mirroring 1st Apocalypse Sam.  Aside from pushing Lucifer through a rift she is paired with Dean to hunt for the missing Winchester like Sam helped Dean find Dad.  She is paired with Lucifer several times, like Sam, although apparently she won't be his vessel.   She betrays Dean by working with the enemy much like Sam worked with Ruby. She slept with Letch like Sam slept with Ruby. She runs when she gets emotional like Sam.  She is brainwashed by the BMOL and kills hunters like Sam did when possessed by Meg....  many parallels.  This Apocalypse trolling indicated we were getting another Apocalypse all last season.

Manic Dean needing to save Mary and new Apocalypse  screams that we are getting Dean!Michael.  In my opinion they have set it up very well.  

I feel like Cassandra.

[Castiels Cat]

On 2/24/2018 at 12:16 PM, MysteryGuest said:

I wasn't as bothered by Dean's behavior as others were.  We were supposed to be shocked in the moment, since it wasn't like him, but I think that was just to point out his state of mind, and was never meant to have any lasting repercussions.

Both Sam and Dean have been "dark" this season, but it's been the depressed, hopeless sort of dark.  I don't want either of them to suddenly become bad people, but in light of all the evil around them, I'm ready for both of them to lose it a bit, and be a bit more dangerous than usual.  That would be fun to watch.  Every time Dean slams someone's head into a counter, someone is always shocked by his behavior.  Not me, I want more of that.  Treat the bad guys like bad guys.  

I have never been shocked by the head to counter slamming.  Dean is very violent and if not usually dark still a very dirty hero.

Dean however does not slam innocent heads into counters.  That is what struck me. She was a scared girl, an innocent and he wanted to use her to his own gain by force.  That is the first time Dean has ever put his own desires over the life of an innocent. 

And when she dies as a result, the dude did not care. And he did this in a season in which he is lamenting the death of a boy he barely knew.

Pretty momentous.   So yeah I think he has already gone "dark".  If they stick to mirroring he olde time Supernatural Apocalypse going dark leads into a major mytharc moment.  I think Dean will say yes to Michael to save Mary.  

[catrox14]

never mind. I'll take any further discussion to the all seasons or bitterness or B v J thread.

Edited February 28, 2018 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

 

Sneak Peek.

What's up with the writing for Dean this season.  he seems far more interested in his bacon than he does wanting to get Mary back. 

If I thought it was building toward something then I could understand why he seems to la-de-da, but I highly doubt anything will come of it. 

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

What's up with the writing for Dean this season.  he seems far more interested in his bacon than he does wanting to get Mary back. 

That's what I thought too! I also thought that whole, 'In time" was weird. Like what? That's what made me side-eye him here.  It's nonsensical for Dean to put a gun to Kaia's head and now be all, 'in due time' and being weirdly sanguine about it.  Is he high on ALL the bacon?

Could he be a Deanmodeus?

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's what I thought too! I also thought that whole, 'In time" was weird. Like what? That's what made me side-eye him here.  It's nonsensical for Dean to put a gun to Kaia's head and now be all, 'in due time' and being weirdly sanguine about it.  Is he high on ALL the bacon?

Could he be a Deanmodeus?

I doubt it.  I think Dean found where Sam hid his valium stash.

[catrox14]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

I doubt it.  I think Dean found where Sam hid his valium stash.

LOOLOL. I'm picturing them both raiding each others medicine cabinets for their various meds.  Sam has the Valium. Dean has the weed. I'm sure of it. LOL

[Castiels Cat]

On 2/23/2018 at 8:22 PM, catrox14 said:

And for me, if they make Michael more evil than Lucifer that still points to redemption for Lucifer because Michael is worse.

AU Michael is worse. His angels wear necklaces of baby ears.  Hunters hunt them on sight per Bobby.  He is the worst torturer that tortures according to Lucifer.  Lucifer will be redeemed if all he does is play frenemy against AU Michael TFW.  He appears to be planning on an army of ragged winged red shirts as backup too.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

AU Michael is worse. His angels wear necklaces of baby ears.  Hunters hunt them on sight per Bobby.  He is the worst torturer that tortures according to Lucifer.  Lucifer will be redeemed if all he does is play frenemy against AU Michael TFW.  He appears to be planning on an army of ragged winged red shirts as backup too.

My point is that Dabb manufactured a new Michael in the AU SOLELY IMO to make Lucifer look better and to set up his redemption. I hate it. I don't want it. It's because they can't find a way to redeem Lucifer without making someone else look worse.  And IMO AW Michael is just a caricature because we don't know his motives.

I would be happy if it turns out that AU Michael ordered those babies killed because they were all AU Lucifer's evil spawn and were evil out of the womb as in nature made them evil and their very existence was what brought upon the terrible world in the AW. That AW Michael had no choice to do it, in order to save what was left of humanity. I'm sure that won't be the case but it sure would be a great twist.

I don't understand why everyone just believes Lucifer that the Earth will be destroyed by AW Michael. I could be misremembering but did he ever actually say what his motives were for 1) the apocalpyse on the AW and 2) wanting to go to Earth. Isn't that just Lucifer's claim? Maybe AW Michael has other motives. Maybe he wants to save all the other angels and humans by taking them to SPN Earth. I mean if he's going to be a parallel to Dean...that would be about right.

I would love it for Dean to let Michael possess him and use the archangel blade to kill Lucifer. I'm sure that won't happen though. 

[gonzosgirrl]

44 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I could be misremembering but did he ever actually say what his motives were for 1) the apocalpyse on the AW and 2) wanting to go to Earth. Isn't that just Lucifer's claim? Maybe AW Michael has other motives. Maybe he wants to save all the other angels and humans by taking them to SPN Earth.

Why would he capture and torture Mary though? If he showed her he had good intentions, she'd help him.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Why would he capture and torture Mary though? If he showed her he had good intentions, she'd help him.

Not to be to cavalier about my answer, but the only thing we saw was Mary in that cage. And she really doesn't look any worse for wear after getting out of it. So could it be that the only thing Jack saw of Mary was her in that cage and that's the only thing he did? Yes that cage was terribad with spikey things but if he was really working her over would she look that good now? 

I'm not defending Michael just hoping to find a way to undermine any Lucifer redemption even by them making Michael the worst.

[ILoveReading]

From @Aeryn13 the regular spoiler thread.

Quote

Right now I`d give it a 50/50 chance that it stays random dude or it will be Sam. 

 

I'm putting it at much higher odds because I remember a while ago Dabb gave an interview where he said that Billie's prophecy of "The Winchester" being important would come into play.   Dabb is two for two in "The Winchesters" meaning just Sam, Sam is suddenly acting like he's morally superior with his no killing, no stealing attitude.  Sam was accepting and welcoming toward Precious Nougat Sunshine, despite him being Lucifer's son, he's been depressed and needing a win, and he's scared of Lucifer's face which means he'll need a 4th chance to confront Lucifer.

Add all this up and its a flashing neon sign that The most holy man is Sam.

[Aeryn13]

That`s an excellent point. Okay, upgrading my odds to 80:20 for Sam being a "MOST HOLY man". Even though he was perfectly fine with stealing and killing before and will be just after this episode.   

[catrox14]

That clip is idiotic. 

There has to be a point to Sam being all "oh now we steal". 

Why is Dean being put in the position of defending his actions to SAM FFS. Why wasn't Dean's allowed to say the following: 

"Really, Sam? Really?  We, meaning you too, commit credit card fraud, pick locks to get into houses, impersonate law enforcement officials and YOU  steal cars and drive them for months.  But sure you're gonna come at me about stealing blood for a ritual to save Mom and Jack. Whatever, man. Let's just go". 

[ILoveReading]

33 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

That`s an excellent point. Okay, upgrading my odds to 80:20 for Sam being a "MOST HOLY man". Even though he was perfectly fine with stealing and killing before and will be just after this episode.   

I think mine are around 99% because there had to be a reason why Dean's blood was important for the comic relief episode.  Dabb's excuse will be "it's Sam's turn now."

[Wayward Son]

Yeah, even I have to admit Sam’s words in this clip were stupid! 

[bozodegama]

Does it really matter who the "most holy man" is?  I think it would be stupid if it was either Winchester.  Neither guy is a "holy" man and, truly, I wouldn't want them to be "holy."  Like Dean said one time (and I paraphrase) "how much crap is done in God's name by an a-hole on a holy crusade."  We really don't need either Winchester to be Sister Constance.

[Myrelle]

"Holy" is what Dabb and co. want it to be on this show. Can one assume that they wanted us to see their rendition of God as "holy"?

If so, I'm not really sure what he/they would now consider "a most holy man" to be, but I can't ever see Dabb allowing Dean to claim that descriptor. Sam, yes, and this going mainly by how he's written Sam since he took over as showrunner. Chuck(again, Dabb's God in the SPNverse) even chose Sam to take on the Mark when he needed someone to do that again; and this, after he'd deemed Dean too "tainted" by it.

IDK, even if by some miracle, the idea of Dean being a most holy man was set up in this one, I'd still have to side-eye it because of the bait and switch aspect of writing that the showrunners and writers of this show have too often, for my taste, shown us that they also love to employ-and this, sometimes even just to tweak the noses of some within their supposedly "all valued" fandom.

[AwesomO4000]

Brought over from the regular spoiler thread:

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

"Look, this isn't a perfect world we're trying to save and if I'm not perfect trying to save then so be it."

I do like this line a lot.  It's so Dean. 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

It's actually a great line and also IMO, a bit of ominous foreshadowing.  The context is absurd though. Like if they wanted to write something to show that Dean is self aware, which he generally is IMO,  why set it up  against Sam professing his newfound and heretofore unseen moral outrage at thievery....is weird.  t also opens up a path for Dean to do something even more morally questionable that he and Sam can further be at odds over. 

To set Sam up so they can show him to be wrong?

I'm sorry but it annoys me when the writers do stuff with Sam that's out of character apparently just to set him up like this. This is the same Sam that the writers had showing Claire how to commit insurance fraud, so obviously Sam now does shady stuff when the situation calls for it, and even teaches impressionable young people how to do it. And before the garage O'Cars, Sam stole cars all the time - probably still does if the situation calls for it. So in my opinion, it's likely just a set up so that Dean can say this great and true line, and Sam will look like a jerk for ever having had questioned Dean or his motives. Which is why I think they didn't do this:

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

...Why is Dean being put in the position of defending his actions to SAM FFS. Why wasn't Dean's allowed to say the following: 

"Really, Sam? Really?  We, meaning you too, commit credit card fraud, pick locks to get into houses, impersonate law enforcement officials and YOU  steal cars and drive them for months.  But sure you're gonna come at me about stealing blood for a ritual to save Mom and Jack. Whatever, man. Let's just go". 

Instead they give Dean a great line like above and then they'll likely show him to be right. So Dean likely gets to be right, self-aware, and not judgemental all at the same time. While in contrast, Sam will look judgemental and like completely-in-denial guy at the least, and also potentially wrong. Because does anyone really think that there will be more bad consequences from stealing whatever it is they need than good consequences? I know I don't.

This reminds me of last season when Sam joined up with the BMoL all "Yay! And I'll get Dean on board, too!" even though that made pretty much no sense in terms of Sam's character... and not even with Sam's feelings at the beginning of the episode. I called foul then - and predicted what would happen - and there were no gray areas to that either. Sam was wrong and shown to be completely gullible... and underhanded for lying to Dean about it. That's pretty much it.

This will be similar, in my opinion. And I had hoped after Carver left, this kind of thing would stop happening with Sam, but apparently not. I miss Gamble.

Edited March 8, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This reminds me of last season when Sam joined up with the BMoL all "Yay! And I'll get Dean on board, too!" even though that made pretty much no sense in terms of Sam's character... and not even with Sam's feelings at the beginning of the episode. I called foul then - and predicted what would happen - and there were no gray areas to that either. Sam was wrong and shown to be completely gullible... and underhanded for lying to Dean about it. That's pretty much it.

But if this episode is a mini-arc of that, then Sam WILL be the most holy man in the same way he was the leader of the hunting community. If that is set up to be wrong, I want Dean to get in on the goods, stat. 

[AwesomO4000]

10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But if this episode is a mini-arc of that, then Sam WILL be the most holy man in the same way he was the leader of the hunting community.

Taken to the "Bitch vs Jerk" thread.

[ILoveReading]

Dabb hasn't written for Dean in in 2 1/2 years, so I figure if we get any Dean/Michael interaction it will go one of 4 ways.

1. Michael will be interested in Dean for a hot minute because he hears the words true vessel but then he'll be unimpressed by him and prefer Sam.
2. A bait and switch where it will look like Dean will say yes, but at the last minute we'll get Trial and Error situation with a thinly veiled, "I'm stronger then you Dean speech" disguised as a BM.
3. People around Dean will straight up tell Dean that Sam should be the one to do it so he can get his win and that he's stronger.
4. Or if by some miracle, Michael wants Dean, it will because he'll see Dean as inferior and easier to control.

Edited March 17, 2018 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

I think that if Jensen has already signed on for 14, we're sunk. My running theory with this show is that they only write something meaty for his character when they're trying to get him to re-sign or, as was the case in S3, they wanted more viewers in order to simply win renewal again.

[Reganne]

TBH, they haven't really wrote anything good for Sam lately either..... IMO.  Lately, Sam's biggest accomplishment is constantly getting hit over the head and getting knocked out.  Most of the story lines seem to be going to the supporting characters like Jack and Lucifer.  I don't really mind that, but I get confused when everyone is saying that Sam is supposedly getting a good story arc coming up because the writers love to write for him.  Personally, I find Michael to be an uninteresting character, so I don't want him to be interested in Sam.  Dean is a more interesting character than Michael, so I prefer Jensen to play Dean.  IMO, if they are going to have Jensen play another character other than Dean or have Dean possessed, I would want it to be a character that is more interesting IMO.  TBH, I don't think Michael is going to be possessing anyone else.  Alternate Michael has his vessel already and seems to be perfectly content with it and our Michael is in no shape to fight as he is too busy singing show tunes.  If anything, I think it is going to come down to Jack vs Alternate Michael.  I think that's what they're setting up.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb hasn't written for Dean in in 2 1/2 years, so I figure if we get any Dean/Michael interaction it will go one of 4 ways.

1. Michael will be interested in Dean for a hot minute because he hears the words true vessel but then he'll be unimpressed by him and prefer Sam.
2. A bait and switch where it will look like Dean will say yes, but at the last minute we'll get Trial and Error situation with a thinly veiled, "I'm stronger then you Dean speech" disguised as a BM.
3. People around Dean will straight up tell Dean that Sam should be the one to do it so he can get his win and that he's stronger.
4. Or if by some miracle, Michael wants Dean, it will because he'll see Dean as inferior and easier to control.

If the 4th one  happens I would be happy because Dean would show that he is much stronger and has a much stronger will than anyone believes. Michael will misunderestimate him, I hope.

And even if Dean does get that moment, Sam will be there with him and then it will be Sams presence that helps Dean overcome Michael. So that it's the reverse of Swan Song.

[Icarus]

I personally don't want a Michael wearing Dean or even Dean in Michael but still being Dean in the current season. I was jonesing so much for it in season 4 where the build up had been telling us it was going to happen, until it didn't! I don't feel that we are on the road for this happening but I must admit as I struggle to watch most episodes more than once and with the volume of people now crowding Dean and Sam out I don't think I would rule out anything much. I know some people enjoy this more ensemble version of Supernatural but I am not one of them, but at least a Dean/Michael scenario would be about one of the brothers! I just can't see how they are going to tie up so many loose ends – actually it gives me a headache even trying to work out how many loose ends there are to tie up!

[gonzosgirrl]

I think it would take a lot of hubris to write a multi-season arc in Season 13 of any show. So either they are going to race for the end to wrap up all these threads, or somebody already knows there is a Season 14. Hopefully even Dabb wouldn't leave us with an unfinished story at this point. 

[Myrelle]

S14 is a given, IMO. The only question for me, at this point, is will it be the last one.

[Mulva]

On 3/17/2018 at 10:00 AM, ILoveReading said:

Dabb hasn't written for Dean in in 2 1/2 years, so I figure if we get any Dean/Michael interaction it will go one of 4 ways.

1. Michael will be interested in Dean for a hot minute because he hears the words true vessel but then he'll be unimpressed by him and prefer Sam.
2. A bait and switch where it will look like Dean will say yes, but at the last minute we'll get Trial and Error situation with a thinly veiled, "I'm stronger then you Dean speech" disguised as a BM.
3. People around Dean will straight up tell Dean that Sam should be the one to do it so he can get his win and that he's stronger.
4. Or if by some miracle, Michael wants Dean, it will because he'll see Dean as inferior and easier to control.

I don't think that there will be any issue of Dean saying yes to Alt!Michael.  Alt!Michael seems to be content with his existing vessel, so why would he want to change?

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, Mulva said:

I don't think that there will be any issue of Dean saying yes to Alt!Michael.  Alt!Michael seems to be content with his existing vessel, so why would he want to change?

The running theory is that he'd possibly now say yes to CagedMichael in order to stop Alt!Michael from winning Apocalypse 3-assuming that Alt!Michael is in his own reality's True Vessel-something that I don't think has been touched on yet.

But as I think was stated on the regular spoilers and spec thread, if he makes to our reality, Alt!Michael should, at the very least, wonder about his counterpart in our reality and who that Michael's True Vessel would be.

There is a lot of potential gold acting-wise, storyline-wise, and continuity-wise for JA and Dean from this set-up, but that would depend on Dabb and Singer exhibiting some interest in actually writing something other than comic relief or emo for both actor and character-which they haven't exhibited very much of at all since Dabb took over as showrunner. Again, IMO.

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Myrelle said:

But as I think was stated on the regular spoilers and spec thread, if he makes to our reality, Alt!Michael should, at the very least, wonder about his counterpart in our reality and who that Michael's True Vessel would be.

That probably accounts for Dabb's (or was it Singer's?) bleat that AU!Michael would be interested in Dean for a hot minute. I'm all too sure he'll be brushed off with some manner of snide, dismissive 'joke' on AU!Michael's part.

[gonzosgirrl]

Or, I might be eating my words. Whoa.

http://ew.com/tv/2018/03/19/supernatural-jensen-ackles-new-character/

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or, I might be eating my words. Whoa.

http://ew.com/tv/2018/03/19/supernatural-jensen-ackles-new-character/

Seriously. This is the most shocking news out of this show for some time.  I am still concerned about them screwing it up writing wise.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Seriously. This is the most shocking news out of this show for some time.  I am still concerned about them screwing it up writing wise.

I'll be skeptical terrified concerned about the writing tomorrow. Today I'm gonna squee all over the place! (and perhaps pee myself a little)

[ILoveReading]

Whatever happens we all know it won't be more than 3 episodes.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Whatever happens we all know it won't be more than 3 episodes.

LOL it could just be 15 minutes of screen time! But I'll take it!

Let it be a great turn like Jared got with Samifer in s5. Let Jensen steal the whole damn show!

OKAY  here is some not serious crack spec.

What if.....Jensen is playing someone else like in a totally different project? Like....Deadpool.....I'm still thinking about his nearly identical haircut as Ryan Reynolds.  No, I don't think that will actually be the case, just throwing it out there.

[ILoveReading]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOL it could just be 15 minutes of screen time! But I'll take it!

Let it be a great turn like Jared got with Samifer in s5. Let Jensen steal the whole damn show!

OKAY  here is some not serious crack spec.

What if.....Jensen is playing someone else like in a totally different project? Like....Deadpool.....I'm still thinking about his nearly identical haircut as Ryan Reynolds.  No, I don't think that will actually be the case, just throwing it out there.

I wish he was in Dead Pool 2 or ever better playing Adam in the next Guardians movie. 

I hope we get a reverse Swan Song.  Sam drives up in the Impala and it allows Dean to over come Michael after hearing the rattle of the legos he put in the heating system.