S04.E07: Who Needs a Guy

[AmandaPanda]

Quote

Joe and Gordon discuss Comet's future; Donna takes a vacation; a new collaborator challenges Cameron; Bos and Diane make a life-altering choice.

[Armchair Critic]

Gordon describing Hailey's hair as being "somewhere mid Hamill" made me laugh.

Oh shit is Gordon dead? 

Unfortunately I was right...

[ketose]

What the actual Hell?

Was it really necessary to kill Gordon with 3 hours of the show left?

This kind of ruins any present day scene they might do in the finale with everyone in their 60s.

[stealinghome]

Oh man, GORDON. I knew what was happening as soon as I saw him itching in the mirror...that sequence was so well done (so much lens flare though). The song he couldn't remember. Everything being about his family, and the rewind back in time. And his Haley-related stuff was so lovely tonight in general. I feel so bad for Haley though. It's going to be a long time before she gets over that she was so on the outs with her father before he died, and that their last few interactions weren't good.

Scoot McNairy rocked the death sequence, with Gordon's dawning realization of what was happening, and Kerry Bishe absolutely nailed Donna finding out and then having to tell the girls. She looked destroyed, sitting on Gordon's steps.

Beyond that, this episode set up the stretch run pretty nicely while also massively changing course for the last 3 eps. Work-wise, it couldn't have dropped more anvils about Donna and Cameron reuniting in some fashion (I had to laugh at Weird Girl's "What happened with you and Donna Emerson?...I want to make sure you have everything you need" segue, like be more obvious, writers), and Donna's look of horror/distaste when Diane offered to sponsor her for the VC job was a pretty obvious indication that she wants out. I suspect Gordon's death will be the carpe diem spur she needs to get out, and it will be easier if Diane's leaving too. Donna is going to join Cam in some fashion, I think, and I could see them joining up with Joe at Comet, both because they want to step into Gordon's shoes and because the kind of stuff Joe was talking about (immersive experience, symbiosis with the website) is what Cam was describing to Weird Girl. And it would really make them all a family, which is so clearly what Joe is craving. (OTOH, I could see Joe just shutting Comet down because he and Haley can't do it without Gordon, sniff.) I liked Joe and Donna having it out, as well, and wish that all could've gone on for longer, since Pace and Bishe play well off each other.

Though I also think the ep was so effective--all the above seems so unimportant now in comparison. The death of a loved one puts things into so much perspective, and the show really nailed that tonight.

Edited October 1, 2017 by stealinghome

[mjc570]

i was surprised they killed Gordon off with so much time left, but it was really done so well.  Emotional without being overly sentimental or dramatic.  All of the actors are really first rate, to the point where pretty much every combination works - I never thought of Joe and Donna as interacting well, but that scene with them really worked.  I'm still not at all a Cam fan, I think she is self-indulgent (professionally)  beyond belief, but I'm glad she showed up for Bos.  That was a lovely moment, when he referred to her as  his daughter.

Speaking of Joe - what is his role with the company, besides investor?  Does he really do any work, or contribute anything?  I guess his videos and interviews could be considered to be market research, but it's kind of unfocused. 

[Moxie Cat]

Baby Mine! The song! Jeepers, I was right! And now it makes sense!

Not surprised that Gordon died (always expected that before the finale) but wondering about the rationale for doing it with 3 hours left. I guess they want that time to adequately set up how Gordon's death affects everyone.

Also guessing the finale might be another jump forward, so they wouldn't need Gordon for that. Maybe he will popup in visions and daydreams, like Mr. Fisher on Six Feet Under.

I thought Haley's hair was great, and way better and more stylish than the super-short 'dos some of my lesbian friends got in college. To hear Gordon, you'd think she had gotten a buzz cut, but then that's a dad for you.

[ketose]

The title had a couple of different meanings tonight.

I was afraid something was going to happen when they showed Gordon throwing out the journals in the previouslies. I also knew Bos was getting married when he didn't tell Cam why she needed to go to Palo Alto. I guess it's just as well the show is ending. I can see the future on it.

I want to see a series flash forward to at least 2007, when the iPhone essentially changed the relationship between the public and "computers."

[Evie]

No, not Gordan! I've expected his death since they gave him the brain thing, but I was surprised it happened with three episodes left. I can see how this will bring Donna, Joe and Cam together.

Well done episode but dang. Gordon really became a favorite of mine these last two seasons; I've loved his relationship with Joe and Haley this season and his post-divorce relationship with Donna.

Really enjoyed Donna and Joe.

[ganesh]

I was watching the episode and thinking this was really strong for Joe. I also cracked up at how Donna slammed his hand in the door because I was riding with one of the students on Monday and she closed the automatic window on my hand. 

I don't get why the show made Hayley gay, have Gordon figure it out, have Gordon solicit advice from Joe, and then kill him off. 

[Rowsdower]

After having a lousy couple of days, I viewed tonight's episode in the hope that it would lift my spirits. (In particular, I wanted to see Gordon reach out to Haley and mend their relationship.)

Needless to say, this wasn't the escape that I sought. I realize that these are fictional characters, but I'm literally in tears as I type this.  I need to lie down and close my eyes.

[Dowel Jones]

I got a weird vibe from Cameron and her investor at the trailer.  She wants Cameron to move on an entirely different track. Maybe she's grooming her for some work at the federal level, so to speak?  Developing software for the NSA/CIA etc.?  Just a feeling.

Poor Gordon.  To tell the truth, though, I was halfway expecting him to check out on the electrical panel or the A/C unit.  This way was much more emotional.

[scrb]

Is it going to be the trigger to get the old gang back together?

I think they can end the series pretty much the way things are.  They all seem to be well off, able to pursue any kind of path they'd want.  They may not become part of some world-changing product but they grew with the industry and bonded probably for life.

What more could they ask for?

[crashdown]

I'm sure I'll write more about this emotionally wrenching episode, but right now three things stick out:

* Cam's explanation of her new concept for a game ("I feel like I'm creating characters that have the ability to accrue memory and develop a personal narrative and change over time") is so delightfully meta. That's exactly what Halt and Catch Fire has done over four seasons with the core four.

* The scene with Donna and Joe was a smaller prequel of the tragedy of Gordon's death.  Joe and Donna fight about something related to their work; Joe is physically hurt; and all of a sudden, the argument melts away and they connect as human beings and friends.  Gordon's death is a much larger version of the same dynamic.  

* Weird Girl's name is Alexa, the same as Amazon's humanesque stand-in.  Coincidence?  I think not!

Damn, this show is killing me as it exits out of my life forever.  

Edited October 1, 2017 by crashdown

[Moxie Cat]

Did anyone else think that Cam was in track to basically creating the Sims? I was like, no, Cam, don't listen to this girl - the Sims was a huge hit!

[ketose]

6 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

I got a weird vibe from Cameron and her investor at the trailer.  She wants Cameron to move on an entirely different track. Maybe she's grooming her for some work at the federal level, so to speak?  Developing software for the NSA/CIA etc.?  Just a feeling.

Poor Gordon.  To tell the truth, though, I was halfway expecting him to check out on the electrical panel or the A/C unit.  This way was much more emotional.

I was totally getting a CIA vibe from that chick.

At least Gordon had a good day. Going back to his roots and fixing electrical stuff, getting his daughter's forgiveness and about to have sex with the sexy librarian.

[clb1016]

I agree with what everyone has said so far about the loss of Gordon as a character, but Scoot McNairy, the actor, is who I'll miss.  He's done such beautiful work throughout this series but it seems the others have been getting all the attention on this board.

[crashdown]

12 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Work-wise, it couldn't have dropped more anvils about Donna and Cameron reuniting in some fashion (I had to laugh at Weird Girl's "What happened with you and Donna Emerson?...I want to make sure you have everything you need" segue, like be more obvious, writers), and Donna's look of horror/distaste when Diane offered to sponsor her for the VC job was a pretty obvious indication that she wants out.

That line from Weird Girl cracked me up, too.  I appreciate the fact that they're careful to reference the Donna/Cameron rift in every episode, even in episodes like this one, where Donna and Cam don't interact directly.  But I think it's hilarious how the writers seem to be intentionally tossing food for hungry Cam/Donna shippers (hilarious because this is a minuscule fandom, and the tiny femslash proportion of that minuscule fandom probably amounts to about twenty people).  But the subtext of that conversation could easily be construed as this:

Weird Girl (desperately crushing on Cam): Level with me.  You and Donna Emerson were totally in love, right?

Cameron: It was complicated. We wanted different things.

Weird Girl: So she was the one who made the first move?  Interesting . . .

If only fandoms with significant femslash contingents were given half as much to work with!

Edited October 1, 2017 by crashdown

[Evie]

10 hours ago, ganesh said:

I was watching the episode and thinking this was really strong for Joe. I also cracked up at how Donna slammed his hand in the door because I was riding with one of the students on Monday and she closed the automatic window on my hand. 

I don't get why the show made Hayley gay, have Gordon figure it out, have Gordon solicit advice from Joe, and then kill him off. 

It seems like Hayley being gay and Gordon figuring it out was just to show that Joe understands and feels a bond with Hayley, which I suppose we will see going forward. 

[crashdown]

7 minutes ago, Evie said:

It seems like Hayley being gay and Gordon figuring it out was just to show that Joe understands and feels a bond with Hayley, which I suppose we will see going forward. 

It's a little awkward, because Joe and Gordon have discussed the issue, but Gordon and Donna never did.  Should Joe bring it up with Donna?  It would be hard to figure out what's the right thing to do in this situation.

[Auntie Anxiety]

Maybe Hayley will end up being the kid that Joe never had. She'll need a father figure.

I've stuck with this show since the beginning even though a lot if the computer stuff sailed right over my head, and I am glad I did. I think the characters are so much more interesting than a lot of the predictable arcs you get in many shows. I also kind of love the Cam-Joe dynamic. He's evolved along the way and he seems to understand what she needs. 

Will miss Gordon. And I like seeing Donna come back to earth.

[stealinghome]

8 minutes ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

Maybe Hayley will end up being the kid that Joe never had. She'll need a father figure.

imo that's definitely the dynamic they've set up. Regardless of whether Joe ends up having his own kids (with Cameron, someone else, or just as a single dad), he's definitely going to be Hayley's father figure moving forward.* That last phone call with Joe, Haley, and Gordon set that up beautifully, as did Donna and Joe's spat involving Haley (setting them up as co-parents in a way).

*=he'll be that for Joanie too, of course, but Haley will need it a little more, I think.

9 minutes ago, crashdown said:

It's a little awkward, because Joe and Gordon have discussed the issue, but Gordon and Donna never did.  Should Joe bring it up with Donna?  It would be hard to figure out what's the right thing to do in this situation.

Oooof, yeah, that's a tough one. My instinct is to say no--that Joe should wait until Haley comes to Donna, and then he can talk with Donna about it. 

[crashdown]

18 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

Regardless of whether Joe ends up having his own kids (with Cameron, someone else, or just as a single dad), he's definitely going to be Hayley's father figure moving forward.* That last phone call with Joe, Haley, and Gordon set that up beautifully, as did Donna and Joe's spat involving Haley (setting them up as co-parents in a way).

That's exactly how I see it.  There's a recapper on the AV Club who's deathly afraid that they're going to end the series with Cam pregnant.  I know why he's worried--there's an awful lot of baby stuff going on in this season.  I think Cam's been consistently not a baby person, but she's also been consistently great with Joanie and Haley, from the time that they were little.  I think having Cam, Joe, and Donna as a makeshift parental unit for those kids would just be awesome in a way that Cam getting pregnant could never be.

[scrb]

On the shallow note, yet another episode this season with Cam in her panties in extended scenes.

As Gordon is dying, he sees scenes of his life with Donna and their kids.  That montage shows how much they frumped up Donna in early seasons.

Some contrast between the two female leads.

[Auntie Anxiety]

Cameron pregnant? No, no, no. She's the type to leave the car seat on the roof and drive away, just like she did with her box o' stuff. A baby would only work if Joe were the primary caregiver. Cam lives too much in her head and can be very selfish (not criticizing, but her own needs have always come before anyone else's....that's just her). You can't tell a baby to wait two minutes (which ends up being two hours) until you finish your work.

[dubbel zout]

15 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

I thought Haley's hair was great, and way better and more stylish than the super-short 'dos some of my lesbian friends got in college. To hear Gordon, you'd think she had gotten a buzz cut, but then that's a dad for you.

I know! "Mid-Hammill" was very funny, but Haley's hair wasn't that extreme. She could have given herself a Mohawk.

Gordon's death was handled really well all around. Joe instantly knowing something was wrong when Donna came toward the car, Diane's very sharp "John!", and the girls knowing something was up when they saw Donna on the doorstep.

2 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

Maybe Hayley will end up being the kid that Joe never had. She'll need a father figure.

Haley is to Joe and Cam is to Bos. The show loves its parallels.

I kind of loved when Cam was bent out of shape that Alexa wasn't too thrilled with what Cam had come up with, but Joe put it to her as Alexa pushing Cam out of her comfort zone, and when was the last time that had happened? Unspoken, of course, was at Mutiny with Donna.

[ketose]

Was it just me, or did Donna using the phrase "perfect storm" seem out of place in a time before the movie came out? I mean that only in the sense that I didn't think people used it in conversion much before 2000.

[cinles]

1 hour ago, ketose said:

Was it just me, or did Donna using the phrase "perfect storm" seem out of place in a time before the movie came out? I mean that only in the sense that I didn't think people used it in conversion much before 2000.

The movie is named after a phrase that's been used for hundreds of years.

[ketose]

33 minutes ago, cinles said:

The movie is named after a phrase that's been used for hundreds of years.

I decided to answer my own question. From Wikipedia:

Quote

Junger published his book The Perfect Storm in 1997 and its success brought the phrase into popular culture. Its adoption was accelerated with the release of the 2000 feature film adaptation of Junger's book. Since the release of the movie, the phrase has grown to mean any event where a situation is aggravated drastically by an exceptionally rare combination of circumstances.

[AllyB]

As wikipedia also said, it's been noted in use since at least 1718. It's a phrase I was well familiar with long, long before the late 90s.

[Mrs Shibbles]

6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I know! "Mid-Hammill" was very funny, but Haley's hair wasn't that extreme. She could have given herself a Mohawk.

 

I thought the same thing.  A lot of girls were cutting their hair short around this time.  I had mine cut to an angled bob in 1993.  It's not really that big of a stretch aside from the fact that she did it herself. 

 

Also, I loved seeing the They Might Be Giants "Flood" poster.  I listened to that obsessively back in the day, and it still holds up :)

[Inquiry]

Damn, this episode was great. This series has evolved into such a great show over the years. They always had the right actors (that's what got me through most of season 1), but the writing had to catch up. I truly believe this will end up a cult classic. There are just two things I'll note about this episode that I found the most powerful:

1) The way Gordon's death happened felt very real to life. It's usually unexpected and you usually never get to say goodbye. It isn't clean and pat. Joe staring at the whiteboard with only the words "Re-Launch" written on it perfectly symbolizes that. There would have been more, but Gordon didn't want to start working on something for 15 minutes when he has to go in an hour. It's better to just save it for tomorrow. Even though he and Joe were both so excited, those words on the whiteboard will be the only thing Gordon got to do in pursuit of his and Joe's goal. Donna leaving a voicemail for Gordan when he was already dead also brought that point home. I really REALLY hope that we're going to be getting some flashbacks because I love Gordan and the actor is absolutely brilliant.   

2) Joe and Donna's conversation might be my favorite scene from this season (maybe even the series). Everything about it was just great. Joe bringing up the things Donna did to him, especially alluding to Texas, was a highlight. I always hated that Donna constantly did these shitty things to Joe, but always talked to/about him with such smug superiority. I never necessarily minded what Donna did, it was her lack of self-awareness that bugged me. It seemed the show wanted to say that Joe was The Worst and Donna was forced to do those shitty things by Evil Joe. I feel like that barrier completely dissolved (or certainly weakened) when Joe said that he knew being cast as the Machiavellian villain wasn't fun because he'd been there. It really put things in perspective and was a fantastic moment. One that could only be created because of the unique relationship these two characters have with one another. By the way, am I the only one who thought the actors had amazing chemistry together? Maybe the writers never gave us much Donna/Joe scenes because they saw the chemistry too.

Okay, one more thing: I'm starting to think Joe/Cameron won't end the series together. If they do, I really don't think she'll be pregnant. I'm envisioning a non-acrimonious break-up soon and Joe taking up the mantle of surrogate dad, especially with Hailey. I don't think the writers have any intention of putting Joe and Donna together romantically, but they'll act as a quasi-family unit. Of course, I don't know how that would mesh with the inevitable Donna/Cameron reunion. 

ETA: I lied. One final thing: my god, Gordan's death scene was so gut-wrenching. The director certainly was a fan of the lens flare, but the actor just absolutely nailed it (I second the poster who said he's woefully underappreciated). Is it ridiculous for me to have also wanted Joe somehow included even though it would make no sense? Like, we just see a shot of Joe in the background standing outside Gordon and Donna's window as they saw the kids off to school? LOL. I guess it's just my love for the Joe/Gordan relationship. I will sorely miss their scenes together...annndd now I'm back to hoping we'll get flashbacks with Gordan in the episodes to come. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Inquiry

[Addlepated]

I was choking back sobs so hard I saw spots.  I didn't want my husband to worry about my mental health.  Man, that was rough.  And speaking from experience, Haley is going to have it pretty rough for a few years for not having left off with her dad on a good note.

[stealinghome]

Quote

Okay, one more thing: I'm starting to think Joe/Cameron won't end the series together. If they do, I really don't think she'll be pregnant. I'm envisioning a non-acrimonious break-up soon and Joe taking up the mantle of surrogate dad, especially with Hailey. I don't think the writers have any intention of putting Joe and Donna together romantically, but they'll act as a quasi-family unit. Of course, I don't know how that would mesh with the inevitable Donna/Cameron reunion. 

The writers have done a good job (or a bad job, depending on your PoV!) with Cameron/Joe insofar as I could see it going pretty much any way. I could see them breaking up; tbh that would probably be the most realistic option, and I agree that that's the way this episode made me lean (though that fact also makes me very suspicious of an intentional misdirect). I could see them staying together and not having kids, as being Haley and Joanie's surrogate father would be enough for Joe. Or--assuming there's another time jump between ep 8 and the finale or within the finale, which I think has to be coming since they won't want the end to be depressing because everyone is still grieving Gordon in the immediate aftermath--I could see Cameron becoming open to the idea of kids in the current moment, and then we jump forward in time and they have a kid or two. That would be my least favorite option, but I'm not sure the writers will be able to resist giving Joe the happy ending he wants. If Joe and Cam have kids, though, you just KNOW that Donna will be doing a good chunk of the parenting as well!

Regardless of what happens with Joe and Cameron, I definitely think Joanie and Haley are headed for a family unit of Mom Donna, Surrogate Dad Joe, and Crazy Aunt Cameron, and that whatever the personal ish between them, the three adults will have kind of an unspoken agreement that their ish never gets in the way of the makeshift family unit for the girls. (Agreed that there's absolutely no way the writers are going to pair up Donna and Joe, by the way. If anything, Donna/Cameron or an OT3 would be more likely!)

Totally unrelatedly, I hope Katie sticks around in the group's orbit in some fashion. I've enjoyed her (in her admittedly limited screentime) outside of Gordon this season. She gets on well with the girls, Katie and Joe have a fun friendship, and she could be a great friend for Donna, who is obviously desperate for friendship right now, and who needs more lady friends even if she reconciles with Cam.

Quote

I don't get why the show made Hayley gay, have Gordon figure it out, have Gordon solicit advice from Joe, and then kill him off. 

In addition to setting up Joe as Haley's surrogate dad, I think that's it a little bit of a have your cake and eat it type of thing. On the one hand, as other posters have said, this episode was excellent at showing how one of the major cruelties of death is that it's so unexpected...you never get to say goodbye, you never get to say all the things you wanted to say, you never get to share with that person the things you had been planning to share--or even any future discoveries that are important. In addition to their last few interactions being really strained, I have to think that one of the things that will gnaw on Haley as she comes to grips with her sexuality is how Gordon would have reacted to her being gay. Would he have been okay with it? Would he still have loved her? Intellectually she can be 99.9% sure that the answer is yes, and Donna can assure her until the cows come home that her father wouldn't have cared and still would have adored her, but still, the not truly knowing would hurt Haley. Haunt her. Be a major loose end. Except, Joe can actually confirm for her that Gordon knew and didn't care--in fact, that Gordon wanted to know how to make things easier for her. Because of his 500% certain knowledge, Joe can give Haley the kind of closure and peace of mind that no one else can. Which is beautiful--but also a little cake-eaty, like I said above, because then the show (if it wants to) gets to leverage the loose end of Haley never coming out to Gordon for angst, but also is able to give Haley closure.

Edited October 2, 2017 by stealinghome

[Dowel Jones]

49 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

I definitely think Joanie and Haley are headed for a family unit of Mom Donna, Surrogate Dad Joe, and Crazy Aunt Cameron,

Spinoff!

[qtpye]

15 hours ago, Inquiry said:

Damn, this episode was great. This series has evolved into such a great show over the years. They always had the right actors (that's what got me through most of season 1), but the writing had to catch up. I truly believe this will end up a cult classic. There are just two things I'll note about this episode that I found the most powerful:

1) The way Gordon's death happened felt very real to life. It's usually unexpected and you usually never get to say goodbye. It isn't clean and pat. Joe staring at the whiteboard with only the words "Re-Launch" written on it perfectly symbolizes that. There would have been more, but Gordon didn't want to start working on something for 15 minutes when he has to go in an hour. It's better to just save it for tomorrow. Even though he and Joe were both so excited, those words on the whiteboard will be the only thing Gordon got to do in pursuit of his and Joe's goal. Donna leaving a voicemail for Gordan when he was already dead also brought that point home. I really REALLY hope that we're going to be getting some flashbacks because I love Gordan and the actor is absolutely brilliant.   

2) Joe and Donna's conversation might be my favorite scene from this season (maybe even the series). Everything about it was just great. Joe bringing up the things Donna did to him, especially alluding to Texas, was a highlight. I always hated that Donna constantly did these shitty things to Joe, but always talked to/about him with such smug superiority. I never necessarily minded what Donna did, it was her lack of self-awareness that bugged me. It seemed the show wanted to say that Joe was The Worst and Donna was forced to do those shitty things by Evil Joe. I feel like that barrier completely dissolved (or certainly weakened) when Joe said that he knew being cast as the Machiavellian villain wasn't fun because he'd been there. It really put things in perspective and was a fantastic moment. One that could only be created because of the unique relationship these two characters have with one another. By the way, am I the only one who thought the actors had amazing chemistry together? Maybe the writers never gave us much Donna/Joe scenes because they saw the chemistry too.

Okay, one more thing: I'm starting to think Joe/Cameron won't end the series together. If they do, I really don't think she'll be pregnant. I'm envisioning a non-acrimonious break-up soon and Joe taking up the mantle of surrogate dad, especially with Hailey. I don't think the writers have any intention of putting Joe and Donna together romantically, but they'll act as a quasi-family unit. Of course, I don't know how that would mesh with the inevitable Donna/Cameron reunion. 

ETA: I lied. One final thing: my god, Gordan's death scene was so gut-wrenching. The director certainly was a fan of the lens flare, but the actor just absolutely nailed it (I second the poster who said he's woefully underappreciated). Is it ridiculous for me to have also wanted Joe somehow included even though it would make no sense? Like, we just see a shot of Joe in the background standing outside Gordon and Donna's window as they saw the kids off to school? LOL. I guess it's just my love for the Joe/Gordan relationship. I will sorely miss their scenes together...annndd now I'm back to hoping we'll get flashbacks with Gordan in the episodes to come. 

 

12 hours ago, Addlepated said:

I was choking back sobs so hard I saw spots.  I didn't want my husband to worry about my mental health.  Man, that was rough.  And speaking from experience, Haley is going to have it pretty rough for a few years for not having left off with her dad on a good note.

I actually woke up the next day thinking about the breath taking beauty and shock of that scene.  I actually showed it to my husband who deals with death in his profession and he was blown away and he is not easily impressed.

I love Scoot and hope to see him in more things in the future.

Edited October 2, 2017 by qtpye

[dubbel zout]

14 hours ago, Inquiry said:

I never necessarily minded what Donna did, it was her lack of self-awareness that bugged me.

I think Donna was totally aware of what she was doing. She was tired of being undervalued and taken for granted, so she decided to go her own way. Unfortunately it screwed over her friends. From a certain standpoint, I can't blame her. It sucks having to be the adult in the room all the time. It can be completely thankless, especially when you know you have more to contribute.

And it's not as if Donna didn't pay the price for what she did. Her marriage broke up (though it had been troubled for a while), her family suffered, and she lost good friends.

[qtpye]

15 hours ago, Inquiry said:

Damn, this episode was great. This series has evolved into such a great show over the years. They always had the right actors (that's what got me through most of season 1), but the writing had to catch up. I truly believe this will end up a cult classic. There are just two things I'll note about this episode that I found the most powerful:

1) The way Gordon's death happened felt very real to life. It's usually unexpected and you usually never get to say goodbye. It isn't clean and pat. Joe staring at the whiteboard with only the words "Re-Launch" written on it perfectly symbolizes that. There would have been more, but Gordon didn't want to start working on something for 15 minutes when he has to go in an hour. It's better to just save it for tomorrow. Even though he and Joe were both so excited, those words on the whiteboard will be the only thing Gordon got to do in pursuit of his and Joe's goal. Donna leaving a voicemail for Gordan when he was already dead also brought that point home. I really REALLY hope that we're going to be getting some flashbacks because I love Gordan and the actor is absolutely brilliant.   

2) Joe and Donna's conversation might be my favorite scene from this season (maybe even the series). Everything about it was just great. Joe bringing up the things Donna did to him, especially alluding to Texas, was a highlight. I always hated that Donna constantly did these shitty things to Joe, but always talked to/about him with such smug superiority. I never necessarily minded what Donna did, it was her lack of self-awareness that bugged me. It seemed the show wanted to say that Joe was The Worst and Donna was forced to do those shitty things by Evil Joe. I feel like that barrier completely dissolved (or certainly weakened) when Joe said that he knew being cast as the Machiavellian villain wasn't fun because he'd been there. It really put things in perspective and was a fantastic moment. One that could only be created because of the unique relationship these two characters have with one another. By the way, am I the only one who thought the actors had amazing chemistry together? Maybe the writers never gave us much Donna/Joe scenes because they saw the chemistry too.

Okay, one more thing: I'm starting to think Joe/Cameron won't end the series together. If they do, I really don't think she'll be pregnant. I'm envisioning a non-acrimonious break-up soon and Joe taking up the mantle of surrogate dad, especially with Hailey. I don't think the writers have any intention of putting Joe and Donna together romantically, but they'll act as a quasi-family unit. Of course, I don't know how that would mesh with the inevitable Donna/Cameron reunion. 

ETA: I lied. One final thing: my god, Gordan's death scene was so gut-wrenching. The director certainly was a fan of the lens flare, but the actor just absolutely nailed it (I second the poster who said he's woefully underappreciated). Is it ridiculous for me to have also wanted Joe somehow included even though it would make no sense? Like, we just see a shot of Joe in the background standing outside Gordon and Donna's window as they saw the kids off to school? LOL. I guess it's just my love for the Joe/Gordan relationship. I will sorely miss their scenes together...annndd now I'm back to hoping we'll get flashbacks with Gordan in the episodes to come. 

The most hearbreaking moment was that Gordon and the audience realized that he was dying at the exact same time.  You could tell by Gordon's face hewas not ready to go.  He wanted to see his daughters grow up, relaunch his company, and have sex with his cute girl friend...goddamit!

 

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I think Donna was totally aware of what she was doing. She was tired of being undervalued and taken for granted, so she decided to go her own way. Unfortunately it screwed over her friends. From a certain standpoint, I can't blame her. It sucks having to be the adult in the room all the time. It can be completely thankless, especially when you know you have more to contribute.

And it's not as if Donna didn't pay the price for what she did. Her marriage broke up (though it had been troubled for a while), her family suffered, and she lost good friends.

Donna was my favorite character the first season.  She has got to learn what I learned the hard way...stop seeking your validation from other people.

Donna, alot of us are hardworking parents who have to constantly put aside our own needs in service of a greater good.  It is a role that women are pressured into and we have to stop making ourselves martyrs.  However, Donna should have acknowledged that she should have walked away from Mutiny when she realized Cam was impossible to work with.  Donna did not have to sit and mother her petulant genius.  Instead, Donna uprooted her family and sunk everything they had in it.  She was trying to do something awesome, but it was also for her own personal glory as well.

[ketose]

How the hell does Gordon die at 40 and Walter White makes it to 51?

I don't really want to see a creepy family made up of Gordon's kids, Donna and Joe. Those girls are almost adults, they don't need a new Dad.

The only reason they killed Gordon is because most of the audience would chuckle at the prospect of Donna, Joe or Cameron biting the big one.

[ava111]

Another thing I will miss about this show? Hearing Pixies, Breeders and Pavement on TV show. The music of my youth.

The only thing I found off this episode was the neighbourhood shoot they used for the green screen in the part of Joe coming to Donna's house. Even from the minimum we saw of her new house it would never be built in neighborhood like that. That was just like the neighbourhood they lived back in season 1. Unless it was intentional to bring us to the past before Gordon's death.

[Texasmom1970]

Damn I am going to miss this show, that is all!

[madam magpie]

On 9/30/2017 at 8:15 PM, Armchair Critic said:

Gordon describing Hailey's hair as being "somewhere mid Hamill" made me laugh.

Me too! Loved this.

Donna shouting that Joe won because he got everybody just broke me. That was such a great couple of scenes with the two of them. I need Cam and Donna to make up before the finale. Just hug it out and say sorry, K? Do it now.

RIP Gordon.

On 10/1/2017 at 10:52 AM, crashdown said:

It's a little awkward, because Joe and Gordon have discussed the issue, but Gordon and Donna never did.  Should Joe bring it up with Donna? 

No way. Outing people is never OK. I do hope he encourages Haley to talk to Donna, though.

Edited October 3, 2017 by madam magpie

[crashdown]

17 hours ago, ketose said:

The only reason they killed Gordon is because most of the audience would chuckle at the prospect of Donna, Joe or Cameron biting the big one.

Wow.  First of all, I for one certainly would *not* chuckle if Donna, Joe, or Cameron died. At this point, I love them all.

But more to the point, killing Gordon wasn't done for just some random shock factor effect. Gordon is the one character who has good relations with *all* of the main characters, so killing him would have the most powerful effect.  It alone could serve as a catalyst to get everyone back together, particularly Donna and Cameron.  Sad as Gordon's death was, it was a necessary narrative sacrifice so that we can end the series with Donna, Cameron, and Joe as a unified team both personally and professionally.

[ganesh]

I'm not a fan of killing off someone to advance the plot though.

[dubbel zout]

Gordon's death didn't come out of nowhere: He'd been sick for a while. His illness seemed under control, but there was always the specter of it getting worse/killing him. It was Chekov's gun, really.

[ganesh]

That doesn't discount that it was done strictly to advance the plot though.

[dubbel zout]

Well, everything is done to advance the plot. But I take your point.

[ketose]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Gordon's death didn't come out of nowhere: He'd been sick for a while. His illness seemed under control, but there was always the specter of it getting worse/killing him. It was Chekov's gun, really.

So the Russians ARE responsible!

[Kel Varnsen]

I can't believe how much i actually like this show now. When i first stared watching i was mostly because it was summer and there wasn't much else on and it seemed like a different concept which i liked.

Still curious to see what Cam is going to end up making. I dont know a ton about computers but it seems to be a point  where it won't be much longer before anything big in computers is developed by groups of people noy just one programmer.  For awhile i thought she might invent a pixar type thing (with the comment in the previous episode about creating worlds and how good cutting edge graphics technology was getting), but i looked it up and Toy Story had already been in development for years at that point.

On 02/10/2017 at 2:22 AM, Dowel Jones said:

Spinoff!

I would totally watch the hell out of a Joanie spinoff with her at school or living on her own and being bitch/sarcastic to people, while wearing 90's clothes and listening to 90's rock. Her delivery of the "holy shit" line when she saw her sister's hair was hilarious.

[TC3200]

Oh!   That opening of  S4 E1 Who Needs a Guy is part of Gordon's dying having scenes from his life play like a movie, wasn't it?   The flashbacks must have started with work-related stuff, like the former Muting building and remodeling it, etc.    Gordon is massaging his temples in this sequence.  The scene of camping in the woods with Joe is completely nonsensical.   That whole opening is a tossed salad of work-life.   The preamble to Gordon's death at home, where he has the flashbacks of Donna and the kids before he dies.    Isn't it?   The lighting, the sallow color, the nonsensical dream-sequence of it (winter coats and hats worn indoors in California??)    Joe, "... tasked with a mindless job scanning years worth of company records in the basement..."  (per http://haltandcatchfire.wikia.com/wiki/Joe_MacMillan)  and Joe and Gordon working in that basement timesharing the company's computers is flashback to Season 2?   Joe has a cast on his arm, then he doesn't.  I can't recall what episode that might have come from, or whether it was metaphor or figment of Gordon's imagination.

[cinles]

1 hour ago, TC3200 said:

Oh!   That opening of  S4 E1 Who Needs a Guy is part of Gordon's dying having scenes from his life play like a movie, wasn't it?   The flashbacks must have started with work-related stuff, like the former Muting building and remodeling it, etc.    Gordon is massaging his temples in this sequence.  The scene of camping in the woods with Joe is completely nonsensical.   That whole opening is a tossed salad of work-life.   The preamble to Gordon's death at home, where he has the flashbacks of Donna and the kids before he dies.    Isn't it?   The lighting, the sallow color, the nonsensical dream-sequence of it (winter coats and hats worn indoors in California??)    Joe, "... tasked with a mindless job scanning years worth of company records in the basement..."  (per http://haltandcatchfire.wikia.com/wiki/Joe_MacMillan)  and Joe and Gordon working in that basement timesharing the company's computers is flashback to Season 2?   Joe has a cast on his arm, then he doesn't.  I can't recall what episode that might have come from, or whether it was metaphor or figment of Gordon's imagination.

I did wonder about that camping scene.