S09.E21: King of the Damned

[Guest]

Castiel captures one of Metatron’s angels and asks Sam and Dean for help with the interrogation. Dean eagerly accepts, which doesn’t go unnoticed by Sam. Meanwhile, Abaddon demands Crowley help her kill Sam and Dean. When he refuses, she reveals her shocking bargaining chip. Also, Castiel sets a meeting with Gadreel.

 

 

[elzin]

The tone that was playing when Dean stabbed Abaddon was soooooo annoying. I almost muted my tv.  I don't know if I'm not paying attention properly, but I just can't get into this season at all.

[SueB]

I loved it.  Put my gushfest at TWOP. 

[Tukahar]

Well, Abbadon is dead- for reals! Yay to that, although I loved her and Crowley together.

And poor Castiel. He rally needs to get a handle on his angels, lol. It looks like he learned management from watching old cop dramas, with everyone running around putting notes on white boards and putting pins in maps. I thought it was funny to see the headquarters he set up.

I am worried about Dean. Sam, not so much.

[LittleIggy]

Now please stab Mergatroid or Jumbotron or whatever his name is with that toothy knife!!

[mertensia]

Dean was acting tactically, Sam, not spitefully or protectively. He kept potential bargaining chips out of the way. Sound tactical movement.

Oh Gavin. You made me laugh. Now go to Sleepy Hollow, NY. Look for a skinny dude named Ichabod Crane. He might be able to help you adjust.

[Jediknight]

How sad is it that after Dean killed Abaddon I was wondering what they were going to do for the final couple of episodes, since they wrapped the season's story? I had completely forgotten about Metatron and the angels, and that was part of the episode.

Loved Crowley calling out the Winchesters about the rules. Dean's went back in time and did crap, the two of them have come back to life countless times, and now Sam thinks there are rules. Like Death told Dean, the Winchesters are an affront to the balance of the universe and they cause disruption on a global scale.  Great to see Crowley call them out.

[SueB]

 

Oh Gavin. You made me laugh. Now go to Sleepy Hollow, NY. Look for a skinny dude named Ichabod Crane. He might be able to help you adjust.

I support this.  I kept thinking -- great Crowley, you left him indigent but with the ability to read. No papers, foreign accent.  That'll go well. 

[mertensia]

Let's not forget the Puffy shirt, SueB!

[catrox14]

 

Dean's went back in time and did crap, the two of them have come back to life countless times, and now Sam thinks there are rules. Like Death told Dean, the Winchesters are an affront to the balance of the universe and they cause disruption on a global scale.  Great to see Crowley call them out.

 

I have a feeling that Sam saying it would be like a ripple effect is a bit foreshadowing some kind of reset of time in the show. I don't think I want them to go there.  Dean was sent back in time but he didn't actually change anything IIRC. He was sent by Cas because it was a test to for the angels to follow Dean's leadership. As it turned out, he didn't change the ultimate outcome of Mary's life. Mary still woke up and was killed.  The 2nd time they went back was to stop Anna from killing Mary and John who was trying to stop the Winchesters brothers from ever being born. They couldn't change that either because Mary was already pregnant with Dean. That episode never made much sense to me.  The 3rd time was to get the Colt and kill the Phoenix to try and kill Eve. Dean killed the Phoenix but they didn't get the ashes and the Colt was left back in that time and was going to end up back with Elkins anyway. Samuel Colt sent them the Phoenix ashes through the mail before Sam and Dean even went back in time because they were at the delivery place before Sam and Dean were even born. So I don't think that changed the events per se. It's too early to think about wibbley wobbley timey wimey...stuff.

 

To me that was different than Abaddon intentionally plucking Gavin out of the timeline. I wasn't really clear if Gavin was even in our time where Crowley left him. I thought he was back in his time but could read now.  But either way, Gavin is still alive and can affect things. 

[DittyDotDot]

I think Gavin is in our time--Crowley doesn't know the spell to do the time travel bit and it's been established (although that matters little on this show) that only angels--or a spell involving angel feathers--can time travel.  So I'm assuming it was in our time and I'm also assuming it will come back later just because I have a feeling that Crowley has more up his sleeve and really isn't addicted to humanity.

 

As far as time travel and changing events on this show--S4 and S5 did not change anything, it was established (again I'm laughing) that nothing can be changed in the past until after the Winchesters changed the story at the end of S5. They made a point in S6--the episode about the Fates and Balthazar sinking the Titanic--of pointing out all the rules where different now and things in the past can be changed. Even though they may not have changed actual events in the western episode, Samuel Colt was aware of their presence in his timeline and that alone would have made changes, IMO. Same with the episode where Dean hunts with Elliot Ness. I don't know, it's a slippery slope when you start trying to figure out all this timey, wimey stuff, so...I decided that I was okay with it, for now, mostly because they at least acknowledged there was this issue.

[catrox14]

 

I think Gavin is in our time--Crowley doesn't know the spell to do the time travel bit and it's been established (although that matters little on this show) that only angels--or a spell involving angel feathers--can time travel.  So I'm assuming it was in our time and I'm also assuming it will come back later just because I have a feeling that Crowley has more up his sleeve and really isn't addicted to humanity.

 

I agree that Crowley is not addicted anymore, but I also think he can do more than he lets on power wise. I agree he has more up his sleeve.

[SueB]

Don't forget the Titanic. That was a big whopper and a fair reason to change their stance.  Now they changed the past in the very next episode (Fronteirland) but there initial intention was to just get the ashes, not actually kill the Phoenix. And the deal with Kronos is a bit different because he was a Pagan God of Time which Dean accidentally grabbed onto. They kept a minimal footprint.  When Henry tried to change the past in S8, Dean stopped him. 

 

So, it's actually not all that horribly hypocritical... they seemed to have developed a new "no butterfly effect" approach. OTOH, Fate may have just found Gavin after it's all over and clipped his little string.  Not sure.  As I said on TWOP, it appears to have not mattered because the timeline didn't change.  So maybe a future Angel snatches Gavin and sends him back. 

Edited May 7, 2014 by SueB

[AngelKitty]

Use the Force, Dean.

[NoWillToResist]

Watching Dean and Sam interrogate the idiot captive angel may be the most I've enjoyed this show in years. That shit was hilarious and I haven't seen the boys have that much fun together in ages.

 

The death of Abaddon was...anti-climactic to say the least, IMO. And I call some bullshit on the boys being naive enough to let Crowley be alone with his son. Heck, I don't even know why Crowley asked. If he had recovered his ability to zap around, why not just zap into the bedroom, grab Gavin and zap out? He didn't need to ask them for permission.

 

How did Cas get in contact with Gadreel to arrange a meeting?

 

And so, there's a constantly moving portal with an entrance to Heaven? Seriously? Well, I guess there's one between Earth and Purgatory, so I suppose it's not something the writers just pulled out of their asses.

 

And Abaddon and Crowley's simultaneous "wow" at Gavin's utter idiocy was great. Too bad these two are too egotistical to rule Hell together because those two united? Would be a force to be reckoned with.

 

Sam's reaction to seeing Cas hug Dean, and the angel security guard's reaction to seeing his commander turn into Huggy Bear were priceless. Nice to see Sam smile at getting a hug too. Probably was proud that Cas now knew how to do it properly because of him. :)

 

But I may never be over how Cas, having started his hug with Dean, adjusts his grip, pulls Dean in tighter and closer, and closes his eyes. Fuck these two, honestly. They're ruining my life

Edited May 8, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

 

But I may never be over how Cas, having started his hug with Dean, adjusts his grip, pulls Dean in tighter and closer, and closes his eyes. Fuck these two, honestly. They're ruining my life

 

I thought the hug between Dean and Cas was oddly awkward. Remembering back to when Dean found Cas in Purgatory, that was just the best hug ever from Dean to Cas and how Dean was so emotional and relieved to see him again. GUH....

 

I fully expected Dean to hug Cas back with equal enthusiasm here but Dean barely reciprocated the hug and seemed like he really couldn't look him in the eye and he was really twitchy and awkward around Cas.  That was really jarring to me and I actual rewound it a couple of times because I was like, "Wait, what did I just see".  It really bothers me and it has to be important because those guys are always standing close to each other and staring at each other for days on end.

[NoWillToResist]

 

It really bothers me and it has to be important because those guys are always standing close to each other and staring at each other for days on end.

 

Hee!

 

Well, Purgatory had Cas emotionally closed off, so the one-sided hug made sense. Here, Dean is the one emotionally closed off, so again, the one-sided hug made sense.

 

I'm just hoping to eventually get a genuine, mutual hug between those two jerks. :)

[Happytobehere]

Abbadon wasn't particularly bright in this episode, which convinces me that Gavin will be a major plot point going forward, why get a son then human Crowley treated like crap as a weapon? If I were Abbadon, I would have gotten Crowley's mother or father prior to his birth and threatened to kill them, hell Since Gavin proved Abbadon has no f___s to give about disturbing timelines, I would have killed the parent and simply eliminated Crowley.

People seem to feel that Abbadon's death was anti-climactic but I actually think that was the point. Dean killed her with massive ease. Did you see her face when he was channeling whatever power when he had the blade in his hand and her utter disbelief when he summoned the blade? Abbadon fought Cain himself yet she still seemed surprised by what was happening and how easily Dean was overpowering her. Massive foreshadowing in this in terms of how powerful I think Dean is becoming, and as he gets more and more powerful, it will be harder to bring him back from whatever overcomes him. Even if this whatever it is is overcome, will he ever be the simply mortal Dean? Is whatever this is that surprised Abbadon the reason why Dean is so valued by both sides? Or is this too much to hope for on a show that has always dropped Dean as the key to things storylines in favor of Sulking Snowflake Sammy storylines?

[DittyDotDot]

As I was saying over at TWoP, this episode left me reminded of The Rapture. But it also reminded me of how Sam killed Alistair in On The Head Of A Pin. The ease at which Dean dispatched Abaddon isn't really why I thought it was anti-climatic, it was just that it was a forgone conclusion that he could and would kill her so it really didn't elicit the same response to me as when Sam killed Alistair, because I was surprised that Sam could kill Alistair.  Does that even make sense?

 

This is why I've had little interest in the MoC story, it's not been at all surprising or really very well developed. If the episodes themselves hadn't been so lackluster, I might have been drawn in to it. It's really such a shame because I think it could've been something epic and really very interesting--Dean takes on the full power of the Blade and kills a Knight of Hell--but it just felt so ho-hum to me in the end. Just another day at the office.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Dean killed her with massive ease.

 

What I didn't understand was why Abaddon fell into the usual "mwa ha ha! Watch as I SLOWLY kill you and revel in it!" stupid fuckery which has been the downfall of countless villains. I mean, the dumb cow knew he had the MoC AND the First Blade and she chooses to kill Dean slowly? What in the hell? She's not been shown to be that dumb before. She should have just snapped his neck or whatever when he first entered the room, rather than throw him against the wall and then take her time slowly squeezing his neck by using her jedi demon strength. So stupid.

[catrox14]

I have to say that ever since "Meta Fiction" anything the characters do that seem odd or dumb or out of character, I now wonder if it's just Metatron's fingers at the typewriter creating mind fuckery with the audience. Like Cas asking Dean to torture considering how awful it was for him to ask it of him in "On the Head of a Pin".  "Meta Fiction" has me questioning what everyone is doing now and why and will henceforth until Metatron is really most sincerely dead.

 

I wondered if Abaddon switched bodies with Gavin and Jodie and gave some powers to Gavin. That might explain why Abaddon was being kind of dumb when she never was before.  Could that have been superpowered Gavin inside Jodie fighting Dean?

Edited May 10, 2014 by catrox14

[Julia]

I have to say that ever since "Meta Fiction" anything the characters do that seem odd or dumb or out of character, I now wonder if it's just Metatron's fingers at the typewriter creating mind fuckery with the audience.

 

I kind of love the way this show plays with genre savviness. Of course the big bad made an evil speech of evil, because it's happening to characters inside a book inside a TV series inside the mind of the manipulative bastard who's writing all of it, presumably inside the mind of God but definitely inside the mind of the manipulative bastards who actually are writing all of it for a genre show on the CW. That's probably the most epic handwave I've ever seen on television.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Julia

[SueB]

 

She should have just snapped his neck or whatever when he first entered the room, rather than throw him against the wall and then take her time slowly squeezing his neck by using her jedi demon strength. So stupid.

I don't think she could.  If you watch closely, sure she first throws him up against the wall to toy with him a bit. But as soon as he shows skills, she uses the same hand gestures which were ripping Gavin apart from the inside out.  I think she meant to kill him straight away and her powers did not penetrate.  He looked like he was in a little pain but no blood gushing at all.  She was shocked and tried again and it seemed to work but then he got off the wall. THERE is where she made her mistake.  There is where she should have gotten a weapon and just attempted to end him.  But perhaps when he broke off the wall, all should could do was keep him at bay with all her concentration. 

 

So it wasn't just that Dean jedi's past her whammy. Dean was not ripped apart by her powers like she intended IMO. 

[catrox14]

Oh wow, SueB, I never thought about her not being able to rip Dean apart like she did Gavin.  I assumed she was just playing with her food after she made Dean drop the Blade the first time. I figured he could resist her more when the Blade was in his hands.  But then Cain killed a house full of demons without the Blade in First Born, so maybe Dean already has tha ability but doesn't realize it yet.  EEP

[NoWillToResist]

 

If you watch closely, sure she first throws him up against the wall to toy with him a bit. But as soon as he shows skills, she uses the same hand gestures which were ripping Gavin apart from the inside out.  I think she meant to kill him straight away and her powers did not penetrate.

 

But IIRC, she didn't look concerned until he was able to pull himself off the wall. She kept making the gesture and smiling sadistically, as if she were intentionally not killing him right away, drawing it out to torment him. IMO, if she expected Dean to die immediately and he didn't, she'd have looked a helluva lot more worried/scared right away.

[SueB]

 

But IIRC, she didn't look concerned until he was able to pull himself off the wall. She kept making the gesture and smiling sadistically, as if she were intentionally not killing him right away, drawing it out to torment him. IMO, if she expected Dean to die immediately and he didn't, she'd have looked a helluva lot more worried/scared right away.

I think we're saying the same thing.  She rattles off her to-do list, very confidently.  And Dean doesn't look like much of a threat. THEN the arm glows and he moves his right arm to 90 deg.  She gets a look of consternation.  He comes off the wall and she keep "blasting" him with what I would call the "pin-the-bug-to-the-wall" manuever.  It takes SEVERAL tries but she succeeds and laughes again.  But she doens't dawdle at this point.  As soon as she gets him up against the wall again, she goes for the "rip him apart from the inside" manuever.  Her hand twists. And Dean FEELS it but there's no blood gushing.  She's not really getting completely to him.  And then he starts to focus on the blade. She spares a glance at the blade as it moves and gives a false bravado laught but she's REALLY worried.  As soon as he comes off the wall she's panicked and within a second she's skewered.

 

So... IMO...as soon as he shows the abilty to overcome her bug-pinning effect, she takes him seriously.  First she tries to repin him, THEN she ineffectively tries to gut him, and then she makes a final desperate attempt to stop him with the bug-pinning manuever but it's all too late and she's dead meat. 

 

Another interesting note was the look of gratification on Dean's face as he whacks her dead body with the Blade.  He's releasing pent-up anger and hatred. I think it feels GOOD. Like he's purging himself of his own pain.  That feeling is going to be easily addictive.  Dean carries alot of pain.  He could spend years releasing it in violent outburst. 

[catrox14]

He did spend 10 years in Hell releasing a lot of that pain.  I'm kind of hoping that something about Dean's time in Hell ties in the MoC.  Taking this to the speculation thread

[NoWillToResist]

 

she makes a final desperate attempt to stop him with the bug-pinning manuever but it's all too late and she's dead meat.

 

Dumb question: Did Abaddon have the ability to zap around like Crowley? If so, why didn't she zap away once she realized that Dean wasn't succumbing to her death grip??

[mertensia]

I think ultimately Abbadon didn't because she just couldn't believe Dean could defeat her. Crowley gets bested sometimes; he's aware it could happen and he makes contingency plans. Dean being able to kill her simply wasn't on her radar even with the First Blade so she had no back up plan. Now watch as she invaded Crowley's meatsuit or something and I'm 100% wrong.

[NoWillToResist]

 

I think ultimately Abbadon didn't because she just couldn't believe Dean could defeat her.

 

There is a certain comfort in knowing that Crowley is the one baddie who hasn't underestimated the Winchesters....and he happens to be the only baddie left alive...coincidence? I think not. :)

[supposebly]

He always knows when to quit and get out. Of course, they should have killed him right then and there. But I forgive that because I like Mark Sheppard a lot and I really like what he and the writers did with Crowley over the years. I really hope they have a good plan for him and his probable downfall.

[NoWillToResist]

 

He always knows when to quit and get out. Of course, they should have killed him right then and there. But I forgive that because I like Mark Sheppard a lot and I really like what he and the writers did with Crowley over the years.

 

Yeah, in-story, it makes no sense to me that Crowley hasn't been ganked, but I too love Mark Sheppard and his portrayal of Crowley, so I hope he doesn't get snuffed. :)

 

[DittyDotDot]

Holy buckets of plot, Batman!!! I know this is what happens every season when we get down to the final three episodes and they realize they have all this shit to tie up, but seriously...Holy. Buckets. Of. Plot!!!

 

See, I knew Sam and Dean still had brains and could use them to get information rather than needing to poke and prod people. To me, this is what strength and power looks like, show. Its been rare for me to say this in S9--I rather enjoyed the Winchester side of things this time. I even liked Dean's subterfuge with Sam--felt very Dean-like to me--even his saying "no" to stowing the blade at the end seemed organic. In-fact, I'd say this is one of the few episodes that I feel Sam and Dean feel like Sam and Dean for a very long time. Weird, considering that Dean is actually not fully Dean right now with the effects of the Blade pressing on him. Whatever.

 

Stupid nonsense with Crowley and the kid. Not only the timey-wimey nonsense, but also I don't believe that Crowley gives a crap about his son. He didn't give a crap when he was fully human, why would he now with only a smidgeon? Why do they always feel the need to make things so complicated on this show?

 

Personally, could have lived without all the scenes of Crowley and Abaddon sitting around snarking at each other and I definitely could've lived without all the flashbacks of Dean holding the Blade in Blade Runners. Dear show, you have an actor that can act, let him do his job. And, trust me, I'm really not as dumb as you think I am, I can follow along without you telling it all to me in maudlin detail.

 

Ding dong, the Queen is dead! (Sorry, somebody had to say it.) Anti-climatic as it was, the deed is finally done and we can stop talking about it.

 

Good to end on: It's Bizarro Supernatural time...What, you don't think that's good? Too bad, I enjoy it immensely!...So, I largely see this episode as a Bizarro mash-up of  On The Head Of A Pin--where Cass calls upon a reluctant Dean to torture who does reluctantly torture and demon-blood-infused Sam kills Alistair--and The Rapture--where Cass's vessel Jimmy and his family hijacks the show and Dean sees just how far off the rails Sam is and why. Bizarro twists: Dean is game for the torture, but another option is found. Dean kills Abaddon, but is was rather un-shocking that he could or would. Claire-leverage was a little girl tied to angels whereas Gavin-leverage is a grown man tied to demons. Okay, that's probably enough of that for now.

[Goldmoon]

I just didn't like Abbadon so I'm glad she's gone.  Always like Crowley so wish Gavin was more tied to the story.  I really enjoyed the boys "torturing" the angel with words.  That was awesome and reminded me of why I liked the brothers in the first few seasons.  As much as I love Cas, it is just weird for him to have maps like that up in the control room.  Why is he having his people work at hospitals?  All in all, I did like it, but that is largely because of the charm of the actors playing Dean, Cas and Crowley.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

• Gavin was an idiot.  Kind of a fun idiot, but still an idiot.  Best part of him being in the episode was Crowley and Abbadon simultaneously rolling their eyes at him.  Do we ever see him again?
• Abbadon's death seemed strangely anti-climatic to me.
• Sam and Dean playing Ezra was pretty funny, but Sam seemed weirdly OOC during that whole thing.  Maybe I was supposed to feel that way?  I don't know.  It just left me really confused.

That's about all I got on this one.

[Demented Daisy]

12 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Do we ever see him again?

Spoiler

Not as yet.  

[DittyDotDot]

So, Abbadon used the blood-finds-blood spell to get Gavin, but how does that work since Crowley (or Fergus) has been dead for 291 years...where'd she get the blood that led to Gavin's blood? Also, the whole hell hound bit was nonsensical too. Whatever...Horrible Duo!

Still don't buy that the Kind of Hades has a soft spot for the kid. Sorry, didn't give a crap when he was fully human, don't believe he gives a crap with just a smidgen of humanity. Please!

At least Sam and Dean made sense here. Stupid show. ;)

Edited October 10, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[bettername2come]

Ugh, I cannot wait for Abaddon to die. I hate her. I don't even enjoy hating her. I do like Gavin, though. Aw, look at Castiel walking in like a badass. I kind of dig the angelic headquarters. Aw, Castiel/Winchester hug. Sam smiled. How lovely. "You betrayed me? No one in the history of torture's been tortured with torture like the torture you'll be tortured with." And it's lines like this that keep me from hating Crowley. I like Sam as good cop. Fergus being a tailor makes sense. No wonder he got mad when his tailor got eaten. I need to find that "It sucks to be you" gif. Sam seems very Jared in this scene. I like Gavin. He's an idiot, but he has standards. I like the scene with Cas and Sam discussing Gadreel. Nice acting by Jared, nice insights into Sam and Gadreel, poor Sam still feeling guilt over Kevins' death. I like that for Gadreel and Cas it's Sam's opinion of each other that makes them willing to talk to each other. Aw, Crowley being so proud when Gavin starts negotiating his way out of hell. Oh, gross scene with the corpse. I like the hellhounds. Respect for Abaddon learning the bullet trick from Henry and Crowley trying to warn Sam and Dean. Ding dong, the bitch is dead. I love that Sam and Dean respect the rules of time travel, unlike another tall, pretty-eyed CW time traveler who shall remain nameless. Love Crowley taking off with Gavin. "Unless, of course, I catch you smoking, in which case, I'll smack you stupid." I'm mostly with Sam on the end scene, although I agree with Dean that not giving Abaddon a chance to snatch Sammy and throw him into a wall was smart. 

[Hanahope]

I have to assume bringing back Crowley's son has a point down the line because it doesn't make sense that Crowley would care, human blood addiction or not.

i finally see Dean acting really different from the mark, besides the Jedi mind tricks, yet he still didn't kill crowley when he had the chance. At least Abbadon is gone.  Now onto Metatron.

[The Companion]

Hooray for Abbadon's demise. I think it was a bit anticlimactic but that is just how it goes when you have such unequal opponents. A human can't beat a knight of hell or a Leviathan, etc.  They need a macguffin to make it work. So it doesn't really bother me. Abbadon was a good villain to hate, so it was at least satisfying.

More objectionable to me was her ridiculous plan. The queen of hell doesn't even bother  with backup or contingencies? 

Sending Sam to the basement was dumb drama for drama's sake and I just can't care about it. Also, Dean is being an idiot for not considering the effects of the MOC. It's as stupid as starting the trials without knowing anything about them. Whatever. This show has a tendency to do these things to advance the plot or ramp up the drama and that won't change.

I loved the part with Ezra. I find the discussions between Gadreel and Castiel way more interesting than the Bartholomew vs. Metatron story.

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, The Companion said:

They need a macguffin to make it work. So it doesn't really bother me. Abbadon was a good villain to hate, so it was at least satisfying.

Are you saying you believe Dean's whole Mark of Cain storyline was a MacGuffin? Right or wrong, he took it on for the express purpose of killing Abaddon. The story had a beginning middle and end. That doesn't seem like a MacGuffin to me.

[catrox14]

59 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Are you saying you believe Dean's whole Mark of Cain storyline was a MacGuffin? Right or wrong, he took it on for the express purpose of killing Abaddon. The story had a beginning middle and end. That doesn't seem like a MacGuffin to me.

100% accurate.

[The Companion]

54 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Are you saying you believe Dean's whole Mark of Cain storyline was a MacGuffin? Right or wrong, he took it on for the express purpose of killing Abaddon. The story had a beginning middle and end. That doesn't seem like a MacGuffin to me.

I am saying there is almost always some arbitrary weapon/thing that by its nature doesn't hold any intrinsic power other than to kill the particular enemy/advance the plot that is immediately discarded once its plot purpose has been served. Perhaps the more appropriate way to describe it, as I have in the past, is a quest item rather than a macguffin. Honestly, it isn't a criticism. As I was saying, you HAVE to have a mythological quest item type weapon to even the score or a secret weakness (e.g., silver bullets). It's the only way to create an apparently unbeatable enemy much stronger than the protagonist and then have the protagonist prevail. 

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

I am saying there is almost always some arbitrary weapon/thing that by its nature doesn't hold any intrinsic power other than to kill the particular enemy/advance the plot that is immediately discarded once its plot purpose has been served. Perhaps the more appropriate way to describe it, as I have in the past, is a quest item rather than a macguffin. Honestly, it isn't a criticism. As I was saying, you HAVE to have a mythological quest item type weapon to even the score or a secret weakness (e.g., silver bullets). It's the only way to create an apparently unbeatable enemy much stronger than the protagonist and then have the protagonist prevail. 

It seems dismissive of an entire story line to make it about the weapon. Without supernatural weapons and spells etc, there is no show. This storyline in particular is a watershed for Dean. It was not about the First Blade, IMO. Dean became the weapon. Considering how (negatively) seeing himself that way has been a theme since the early days of the series, it's so much more than a Macguffin.

Edited January 12, 2020 by gonzosgirrl

[The Companion]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It seems dismissive of an entire story line to make it about the weapon. Without supernatural weapons and spells etc, there is no show. This storyline in particular is a watershed for Dean. It was not about the First Blade, IMO. Dean became the weapon. Considering how (negatively) seeing himself that way has been a theme since the early days of the series, it's so much more than a Macguffin.

Oh I agree Macguffin was the wrong term. I stand corrected. I was really just getting at the necessity of having a spell or a special weapon, etc.

I will also note that the MoC aspect of the First Blade has a lot more impact than, say, the Leviathan blade, so perhaps it isn't the best example.

Really, I was getting at the actual fight and killing of Abbadon. You can't really have a protracted fight because of the power imbalance. Same was true of the Leviathans. 

Spoiler

I will also say that now that I am 1.5 episodes later, I agree that this has a lot more impact from a character arc perspective and I am really interested in where it goes, so the comment may also have lacked some perspective gained down the road.

 

[catrox14]

The weapon had no real power without the MoC, be it on Dean or Cain for that matter.  They work together through the person who has the Mark. 

Quote

Really, I was getting at the actual fight and killing of Abbadon. You can't really have a protracted fight because of the power imbalance. Same was true of the Leviathans. 

I don't see how it's either a MacGuffin or anything other than an actual plot line for Dean. He is superpowered here basically, which is the entire point of  him having the Mark and the First Blade...so he could kill Abbadon.    No different than Sam being Lucifer's vessel to fight Michael in s5. 

I mean in a show about supernatural beings that have more power than a human, yes, the human needs some advantage.  The Mark is the advantage. 

 

[S Cook Productions]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The weapon had no real power without the MoC, be it on Dean or Cain for that matter.  They work together through the person who has the Mark. 

I don't see how it's either a MacGuffin or anything other than an actual plot line for Dean. He is superpowered here basically, which is the entire point of  him having the Mark and the First Blade...so he could kill Abbadon.    No different than Sam being Lucifer's vessel to fight Michael in s5. 

I mean in a show about supernatural beings that have more power than a human, yes, the human needs some advantage.  The Mark is the advantage. 

 

Keep in mind that The Companion has not seen season 10 yet. We have way more Perspective than she does at this point on this particular storyline.... I have a feeling that her take on the importance of this will change. 🙂

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

Keep in mind that The Companion has not seen season 10 yet. We have way more Perspective than she does at this point on this particular storyline.... I have a feeling that her take on the importance of this will change. 🙂

Perhaps, but the MoC in Season 9 is still a major plot line, with enormous implications for Dean, regardless of future happenings. All the things discussed here happened within the season - which is why the idea that it was a macguffin was somewhat startling, and a reasonable point for discussion.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, S Cook Productions said:

Keep in mind that The Companion has not seen season 10 yet. We have way more Perspective than she does at this point on this particular storyline.... I have a feeling that her take on the importance of this will change. 🙂

The importance and power of the Mark with the First Blade along with Dean's rationale for taking on the Mark, were  made clear in First Born.  Dean was told by Crowley it was the way to kill Abbadon, which has been Dean's mytharc throughout the back half of s9 thus far.  That is why it's not a Macguffin, nor a deus ex machina, nor any other theory one can come up with to reduce or minimize th significance of it within s9 in and of itself. It's a solid mytharc which was setup 20 episodes ago, showed the impact it had on Dean, and fulfilled it's purpose as stated in EP 9.11 within this episode.