A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[YaddaYadda]

Rumple had to have a redemptive arc dragged out for four seasons

 

Rumple has gone so far down the rabbit hole this season.  How does one redeem that?  I think he's done.  Rumple can't be some hero and I doubt I'll feel any twinge of sympathy for him tonight or after tonight or ever.

[Camera One]

Sadly, it's these writers.  They can write a switch-a-light in 5 minutes.  All it takes is Rumple about to die and making some new sacrifice to show his commitment to true wuv.  They're so delusional they probably thought Rumple's romantic advice to Robin in "Heart of Gold" was heartfelt.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Camera One

[HoodlumSheep]

Now that the finale has aired...it didn't save the season for me like 3b's did. My main problem (besides the typical convoluted stuff) was the pacing. I didn't think any of the scenes were allowed time to breathe.

3b > 4b. That's final for me.

Edited May 11, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[Souris]

As I just said elsewhere, they're shit at pacing. 3B's finale didn't feel so rushed, and there were some actual scenes that had room to breathe. But the 4A & 4B finales were like an ADHD toddler hopped up on Snickers and Mountain Dew -- just all over the place.

[Mathius]

3b > 4b. That's final for me.

I agree. 3B > 2B > 4B.

[Serena]

In no particular order, I think the problems with the finale are the following:

 

• WHO CARES about Isaac trying to sell televisions? If you feel the need to show Isaac getting the job, to set up for Henry later on, start with him and the Apprentice meeting.
• Trying to give OQ the Snowing/CS treatment by stealing paralleling their scenes just highlights how lame they are in comparison.
• Related to that, and I'm not asking for more OQ scenes mind you, but you make all the AU about their fated true love and how they need to meet and then they have no one-on-one scene once they're back? Also, are they back together? When did it happen?
• People getting to literally live in each other's shoes should have led to some self reflection on wow, being a hero is not all sunshine and roses after all!
• Savior Regina. 'nuff said.
• Isaac's motivation is so lame. 
• Other?

Edited May 11, 2015 by Serena

[Mari]

 

• Isaac's motivation is so lame. 
• Other?

 

His motivation made the Apprentice and the Sorcerer look especially stupid.

 

You're giving someone the power to rewrite peoples' lives, but telling them to only write down what they see actually happening, and you decide to give that power to a guy who's a thwarted creative writer with serious ego and attitude issues?

 

How does that make any sense?  it was as if  they were asking for him to start rewriting anything he liked.

[FurryFury]

WHO CARES about Isaac trying to sell televisions? If you feel the need to show Isaac getting the job, to set up for Henry later on, start with him and the Apprentice meeting.

 

I liked this flashback. It was fun, which is more that can be said for a good part of scenes involving some of the supposed main characters. That said, his motivation did suck and really didn't fit the themes of the show in general. It just seemed hugely hypocritical of Adam and Eddie to laugh at this guy's villain apology book while their show is exactly like this.

 

Overall, 3B sucked but it still held out much better than the awful, irredeemable 4B, and 3B finale was much more consistent and generally fun than "Operation Mongoose".

 

Still not sure if I'm back next season. Depends on the casting for Merlin and Morgana (if she'll be there), but I put the odds at 30% only because I love Camelot and don't necessarily mind Dark One Emma. Also, Regina sure seems like she'll be isolated in her own world of Robin and Zelena, making her scenes easy to FF through. 

[Serena]

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced this season's flashbacks should have been the Heroes and Villains book. The AU personalities could have been more developed, and they could have tried to trick the viewers into thinking we were "just" seeing Isaac's book come alive, with the present day being a quest for the author. Then the finale "twist" could have been that no, actually, "our" characters are really the ones we've been seeing in the flashbacks! We could have skipped that whole first hour because we wouldn't need to setup, and Henry could have gone directly to find Emma, with that whole part of the adventure being longer. 

[HoodlumSheep]

I think Isaac's origins were alot like Rumple's. both were bullied/ treates not so nicely and when they both made a grab for power (or was gifted with), look at what happened. They each got a inceedibles powers and both abused them. No wonder why they got along.

Personal 4b rankings:

1. Sympathy for the De Vil

2. Poor Unfortunate Soul

3. Op. Mongoose pt 1 (Henry got stuff done!!)

4. Darkness on the edge of town

5. Lily

6. Operation Mongoose pt 2 (the pacing ruined it)

7. Mother

8. Unforgiven

9. Best laid plans

10. Heart of Gold

11. Enter the Dragon

The bottom 3 could be switched around with each other depending on my mood.

Top 5 eps of season 4:

This is actually pretty hard! So many mediocre/not-very-good eps, so few good or great ones.

1. Tie between Sympathy for De Vil and The Apprentice

3. White Out

4. Poor Unfortunate soul

5. Shattered Sight (not the strongest episode, spell was a let down, but those Ingrid/Emma flashbacks ;_; Elizabeth Mitchell owned her scenes)

Bottom 5 (1. Is the worst)

1. Heroes and Villains

2. Breaking Glass

3. Enter the Dragon

4. Heart of Gold

5. Smash the Mirror pt 1&2 (the pacing!!!!)

Honorable mention for good eps: Operation Mongoose Pt 1 I guess? Henry was awesome but I just liked the Dairy Queen storyline better.

Honorable mention for worst: best laid plans

Favorite newly introduced characters (judged solely on the characters, and not so much on their storylines):

0. (I'm getting too tired of editing this post, so I'm not changing the numbers again) CRUELLA

1. Ingrid

2. The Apprentice

3. The Author (please don't judge me) and Elsa

5. Kristoff

6. Lily

7. Ana

8. Tie between Mal and Ursula. I like Ursula's flashbacks better than her bland present day self, while I can say the exact opposite for Mal.

Worst Storylines:

Lol. Joking. It'd take years for me to figure out which storyline frustrated me the more.

Edited May 11, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

You're giving someone the power to rewrite peoples' lives, but telling them to only write down what they see actually happening, and you decide to give that power to a guy who's a thwarted creative writer with serious ego and attitude issues?

 

Well, the quill chose him!

 

And when the quill chose Henry, all I could think of what "you're a wizard, Harry" and then he broke the Elder Wand...err...quill, I mean.  Yeah, quill.

[HoodlumSheep]

I was laughing at all the Harry Potter similarites.

The pen chose Isaac.

Henry broke the pen.

Regina was a savior (chosen one) who's love and willing sacrifice allowed for Henry to fix reality (much like Harry's "death" destroyed the final bit of Voldemort that allowed him to defeat him)

[Shanna Marie]

You're giving someone the power to rewrite peoples' lives, but telling them to only write down what they see actually happening, and you decide to give that power to a guy who's a thwarted creative writer with serious ego and attitude issues?

And why, if the job is only about recording what actually happens, would you even give the power to rewrite people's lives? That makes no sense. It seems like the power you'd need to give would be some kind of omniscience, so the Authors can see even private moments and record inner thoughts. That kind of omniscience could be its own kind of power that could be misused to help influence events, like, "Pssst, you know what she's planning to do against you?"

 

While the Disney tribute allusion was nice, it also makes little sense for Walt Disney to have been an Author, considering he was telling the same stories about the same people that Isaac wrote about. Wouldn't the stories of Snow White, Cinderella and Sleeping Beauty already have been told if Walt was the Author Isaac took over from? Or do variations on Snow White, Cinderella, and Sleeping Beauty exist in multiple realms, turning out in different ways in each place?

 

In short, nothing about this Author plot has made a lick of sense from day one. It hasn't been thought through or developed at all except in very half-assed ways.

[jhlipton]

WHO CARES about Isaac trying to sell televisions? If you feel the need to show Isaac getting the job, to set up for Henry later on, start with him and the Apprentice meeting.

Were we supposed to like or dislike Isaac's boss. He was rude to Isaac, but he related to the customers a lot better. So that was crappy too.

[Camera One]

I can't make myself feel hopeful about Season 5.  The Dark One, Emma Edition, feels so manufactured.  Instead of exploring the natural insecurities and issues of the main characters, the writers bring on these over-the-top contrived scenarios which overshadow any true emotional development that can take place.  This latest twist/reset almost feels like a way to avoid having to write for Emma as Emma, just like the dumb Babynapping secret subplot gave the Writers a way to avoid digging deeper into Snowing.

[Mathius]

I can't make myself feel hopeful about Season 5. The Dark One, Emma Edition, feels so manufactured. Instead of exploring the natural insecurities and issues of the main characters, the writers bring on these over-the-top contrived scenarios which overshadow any true emotional development that can take place. This latest twist/reset almost feels like a way to avoid having to write for Emma as Emma, just like the dumb Babynapping secret subplot gave the Writers a way to avoid digging deeper into Snowing.

THIS. Adam and Eddy are so delusional that they honestly think they're writing a "character show" and "telling stories for these characters", but have no clue as to what that would really TAKE, which is essentially the exact OPPOSITE of what they are continually doing. In a character show, where stories are told for the characters, the stories and conflicts arise FROM those characters. They don't arise from out-of-nowhere plots, obstacles, complications, villains, curses, retcons and "twists" that are placed in front of the characters to see how they "react and grow" from dealing with it (and in this show, they DON'T EVEN DO THAT!)

Edited May 12, 2015 by Mathius

[retrograde]

Well, now it's over, I stand by me personal assessment that 4B was objectively worse than 3B, yet more entertaining to me.

 

Ultimately, it felt like with both seasons that the writers knew where they wanted to be for the finale and they knew what villain/s they wanted and then they just came up with a bunch of ultimately inconsequential stories to fill the space between. The author plot is case in point: I (and I think many others?) ultimately enjoyed the AU, but I was tremendously bored by the author plotline up until maybe Sympathy for the De Vil. The writers knew something cool was coming but couldn't see how boring the looong lead-up to it was for the rest of us.

 

I agree with others' assessment that ultimately, the season would have been better if they'd ditched the trio and spread the finale stuff out way longer. But that is with the hindsight that the author stuff ended up being okay. At the start of 4B, I hated the author plot and would have mutinied if I'd learned that was going to be the plot. Also, I loved Cruella, even if she was pointless in the end.

 

Anyway, half-season breakdown. 

 

Liked:

• Cruella. If Regina is going to be a sad sack, someone needs to bring the snark. And it was nice to have an unrepentant villain with no sob story.
• Emma. She had character development, she didn't go dark (well except for the end there, but I'm glad they never had her remotely tested by the trio's weak-ass attempts to turn her evil), and she also got quite a few happy moments which is nice.
• The Emma/Hook relationship continues to be reasonably well done, by this show's standards. As with most seasons, the writers paid attention to it at the start and then put it on the back burner, but at least they didn't ruin it.
• Apart from the role that Snowing played (and yes I realise that is a big caveat) I liked the Lily and Mal storyline, and I'm interested to see a bit more of Lily next season. Lily has the potential to be an interesting character, and it's good that Emma has a friend with actual character depth. 
• There wasn't much Belle.
• Lots of crappy CGI. I love crappy CGI.
• I enjoy "fairytale characters in the real world" stuff so I liked what we got of that with Rumple and Ursula and even the Hoods.
• I really liked the AU stuff. Especially Evil Snow and bumbling Hook. 
• The return of August. Sue me, I like August, despite all the Neal stuff.

 

On the fence about:

• Emma and Regina's friendship. I don't hate it, per se, but I loved snarky Regina.
• Hook. He had his moments, but what happened to flirty and fun Hook? Please bring that guy back. 
• The author. I hated the lead up, but the actual character was okay. I liked that he was unpredictable and it was difficult to know who he would end up siding with.
• All the Fantasia stuff. A for effort, I guess, but it all felt a bit shoehorned in there.
• Pregnant Zelena. I know it is the dumbest storyline, but I also kinda love how absurdly soapy it is. 

 

Disliked:

• Snowing's storyline. I don't feel I need to elaborate on that.
• Robin. Just when you think he can't get worse...
• Lack of Rumple. That would be fine if it was half-good Rumple, but evil Rumple is great and there should have been way more of him.
• Everything about Will. His lack of a storyline or even actual lines was borderline comical, and he ultimately served zero purpose.

[HoodlumSheep]

I liked the Fantasia stuff (hoping that Mark Isham includes the fantasia bit in the next soundtrack).

"A for effort" is a good way of putting it (although I feel like that could apply to a lot of A&E's ideas), and yeah it fizzled in the end, but I still enjoyed it for what it's worth.

Also, I like how the Apprentice was carried through both half of the seasons as well as the idea of the sorcerer. And I'm glad that the sorcerer's hat wasn't a one and done magical item that we'll probably never see again (like the gauntlet, etc.)

As much as I thought 4b's arc was sloppy, I did like most of the characters introduced. The Author, the Apprentice, Lily (who I'm growing more and more fond of), I like this version of Mal despite how many seem to be disappointed because she's supposed to be the mother of all evil. Cruella was a gift. I enjoyed Ursula's backstory. Yeah, the QoD were a bit wasted, but at least 2 out of the 3 are alive so there is a chance that we could see them again.

But Snowing seemed to have been sacrificed, I don't know if I'll ever enjoy Will again, I'm done with Regina and Rumple. Belle is still just there. Same with Robin Hood. Heck, I think i enjoy Zelena more than I do those two just because she's batty and fun. The "going dark" stuff makes no sense in terms of continuity. Character continuity was sacrificed. Evil QoD hardly did anything evil (even in their flashbacks, save Cruella). Typical slow middle batch of eps.

I'm so torn on 4b actually. I still think it was probably the worst arc, but mainly because it was messy and too much stuff was trying to be crammed into it and characters got sacrificed on the alter of plot and "ooh the heroes aren't as good as they say they were!"

So I don't know. Maybe I'll form a better sense of 4b feelings if I ever rewatch it.

but so far:

S.1>3a>Wonderland/2a>4a>3b>2b>4b

Edited May 12, 2015 by HoodlumSheep

[YaddaYadda]

Hook. He had his moments, but what happened to flirty and fun Hook? Please bring that guy back.

 

Well his girlfriend has gone poof and is the new Dark One.  I have serious doubts fun and flirty Hook will be making it to our screens.  I do see more of the usual though with Captain Swan, a lot of Emma pushing him away which I'm all kinds of over.  I know, I'm judging before things have even started.

 

I'm not expecting any sorts of flashbacks of the 6 weeks that passed and how the characters interacted with each other during that time.  

 

I'm also expecting minimal Henry with regards to Emma.  I just got the impression that it's really up to Hook and Snowing to do what it takes to de-Dark One Emma.

Edited May 12, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[legaleagle53]

Were we supposed to like or dislike Isaac's boss. He was rude to Isaac, but he related to the customers a lot better. So that was crappy too.

 

I think the intent was for us to feel sorry for Isaac for having an asshole for a boss who constantly rubbed Isaac's nose in the fact that Isaac was a loser who sucked at life.  In other words, by the time Isaac's motivation was finally revealed, we were supposed to be understanding and forgive him for playing God.

Edited May 12, 2015 by legaleagle53

[Shanna Marie]

Now that we've had the conclusion to the Author plot, I have to say that it still makes no sense at all and has to be the dumbest plot in the history of plots.

 

First, there's how it started -- Regina coming up with this random idea out of the blue, not from finding any particular clue or hearing anything. It would be like if I were moping about a guy I'd gone to high school with but had been too shy to talk to but had met in adulthood and gone out with a couple of times before he got back with his ex, his high school girlfriend, and I wallowed by looking through my high school yearbook and somehow got it into my head that it was the book's fault that things didn't work out for me because nerdy girls never get the guy, and therefore I can't have a happy ending. Even though I know via Facebook and the small-town gossip mill (my dad) that most of the couples in prom photos and the "cute couples" spread have had their ups and downs and may not even still be together, and even though I've been more successful than most of my classmates and have an enviable career, and even though the book itself shows that I was valedictorian and Most Likely to Succeed, and even though this book only records events that happened nearly thirty years ago, this yearbook is what's keeping me from having a happy ending because it depicts me as a nerdy girl rather than homecoming queen, and so the only way to fix my life is to find the yearbook editor and make her change the outcome of my life so I'll be happy -- with "happy" being not too well defined. Do I want the guy to leave his ex for me? Something bad to happen to the ex? Another, better guy?

 

Even in a world where magic works, with no evidence to back that up, it sounds utterly insane. And yet how many people went along with it, to the point of taking some big risks to make it happen? It would have helped if there'd even been one real dissenting voice. Emma's from our world and still getting used to the idea of magic, so why would she have thought this was a great idea instead of pointing out that the book ended 30 years ago, so it's hard to blame it for what's happening now, and besides, things haven't been easy for any of the people with happy endings in the book?

 

But then even though the idea is based on no evidence, it somehow turns out to be right, and is something that some people have known about for a while. But then other villains are able to find their happy endings without changing the book, and the author isn't supposed to be changing the endings, and yet this doesn't stop Operation Mongoose. When Regina finally comes to the only rational conclusion -- that your happiness is in your own hands -- nobody seems to feel like they wasted all this time. Worse, when someone else does exactly what Regina and everyone else buying in to Operation Mongoose were trying to do, it turns out to be a bad thing that must be fixed, and Henry even breaks the quill so it can't be done again, but without any sign that he recognizes that his own plan was a bad idea.

 

They've managed to make the entire main cast look like a bunch of raving idiots with this story. Previous arcs have made them look ineffectual, but in this case, the villain was only able to do what he did because of the actions of the heroes in carrying out a plan that should have been shot down with a withering "Seriously?" at the start.

[YaddaYadda]

I'm thinking the Author plot had nothing to do with Regina or Rumple in the end and everything to do with Henry and how he has been chosen as the next Author.  In 4x08, after Emma's magic went wonky and Henry was hurt, he told Regina that he had nothing special.  He didn't have magic or anything like that and she was like well you have the heart of the truest believer.  So now, Henry is uber special since he is the next Author and I'm assuming there's some mega plot point attached to that somewhere.

 

As someone who has deep seated hate for Henry, I didn't think he was horrible in the finale.  I thought he was much better in the second hour than he was in the first though.  Maybe it's because of the people he was interacting with.

[jhlipton]

a plan that should have been shot down with a withering "Seriously?" at the start.

LOL

Was anyone else disappointed that no one named Ricky appeared in any part of Operation Mongoose?

[Souris]

Now that we've had the conclusion to the Author plot, I have to say that it still makes no sense at all and has to be the dumbest plot in the history of plots.

 

They've managed to make the entire main cast look like a bunch of raving idiots with this story. Previous arcs have made them look ineffectual, but in this case, the villain was only able to do what he did because of the actions of the heroes in carrying out a plan that should have been shot down with a withering "Seriously?" at the start.

 

Accurate post is accurate.

 

The Author plot was utterly and completely stupid and nonsensical. It made the characters look stupid as hell. And it opened up a huge can of worms about free will vs. fate and what exactly the characters did of their own choices and what the Author may have made them do -- a can of worms that A&E had no interest in dealing with, so they ignored the implications and never clarified how much the Author "got creative" with. So it was all a mess, and the worms continue to crawl around the streets of Storybrooke.

[Serena]

I'll say I don't think the Author plot was a complete failure. Like, the actual plot once the Author appeared ended up more or less making sense.

Everything about Operation Mongoose (not the episodes, the plotline) was incredibly stupid, though. Regina pulling this idea out of her ass and everyone going along with it? Nope.

[Shanna Marie]

I'll say I don't think the Author plot was a complete failure. Like, the actual plot once the Author appeared ended up more or less making sense.

Everything about Operation Mongoose (not the episodes, the plotline) was incredibly stupid, though. Regina pulling this idea out of her ass and everyone going along with it? Nope.

Yeah, I think it would have worked a lot better if it hadn't been kicked off by Operation Mongoose, if, say, they'd just happened to run across Isaac or accidentally freed him from the page, or something like that. It's the spending a season trying to do something that turned out to be a very bad idea and the wrong thing to do, for silly reasons, and then never even having an "oops" moment or a bit of "this is all my fault." Henry spent that whole time running around trying to undo exactly the kind of thing that might have resulted from Operation Mongoose and none of this would have happened without Operation Mongoose, and he never once said anything about regretting that.

 

But the Author stuff still had problems. There's no reason an Author should be given the power to change reality if the job is simply recording it. It's cute that they name-checked Disney, but it doesn't make sense that these Authors are supposedly recording events, and yet so many of them are telling the same stories over and over, just different versions. Are there multiple Snow Whites in multiple universes, or does each Author have to re-tell the same stories and puts their own spin on it? It might have helped if we'd seen how the Author was supposed to work, what powers the Author was supposed to have. Are the Authors like roving reporters, going around and writing down what they see? Do they have some kind of omniscience about events? Or when a writer gets a story idea, is that actually a history from another realm being transmitted? How do they determine what gets written about and what doesn't? In order to show what was wrong with Isaac, we kind of needed to see what he should have been doing, how it works when it's being done the right way.

 

So maybe instead of "Author" being a job and it being something that massive in the universe, it might have worked better if Isaac had just been a guy who found a magic quill and realized what he could do with it.

[Camera One]

So maybe instead of "Author" being a job and it being something that massive in the universe, it might have worked better if Isaac had just been a guy who found a magic quill and realized what he could do with it.

 

Exactly.  Looking at it from that perspective, if Isaac was just the Guy with the Magic Quill and not The Author, the general plotline could still have stayed the same.  Which demonstrates how superfluous the whole "mythology" story of The Author was.  There was no need for any connection to Henry's book.  All the assumptions of Operation Mongoose, that there was a Writer who wasn't letting the villains have a happy ending (sprouted by both Regina and stated authoritatively by Rumple), were false.

 

There was no cosmic rule that the heroes win and the villains lose.  

[Curio]

Looking at the general consensus of the Season 3 and 4 finales, it sounds like most people seem to enjoy when these characters slip into the Enchanted Forest and play around in that universe for a bit.

 

So my question is—why don't the writers allow the characters to go on more adventures outside of Storybrooke? Two hour finales just aren't cutting it for me. I want more.

 

Yes, Storybrooke has its charms, but it has gotten increasingly monotonous and boring. I'd love it if they could figure out a way to write an arc where we spend half the time in Storybrooke and half the time somewhere else like Camelot. And I'm not talking about flashbacks, either. Present time.

[Mathius]

So my question is—why don't the writers allow the characters to go on more adventures outside of Storybrooke?

Because vocal fans wouldn't shut up about wanting Storybrooke back during 3A's airing.

[Camera One]

So my question is—why don't the writers allow the characters to go on more adventures outside of Storybrooke? Two hour finales just aren't cutting it for me. I want more.

 

Yes, Storybrooke has its charms, but it has gotten increasingly monotonous and boring. I'd love it if they could figure out a way to write an arc where we spend half the time in Storybrooke and half the time somewhere else like Camelot. And I'm not talking about flashbacks, either. Present time.

 

One reason is they seem to want to have half the action in Storybrooke, to have that dichotomy.  Even though Storybrooke is getting old, in some ways, it's nice to see a mix of fantasy and present-day.  The problem is moreso that they are not truly exploring the workings of Storybrooke nor modern issues.  If they did (with the oft-mentioned suggestion of having zero magic in Storybrooke), this dichotomy could be starker and more worthwhile.

 

Another reason the half Storybrooke and half EF flashback structure is ingrained in their writing is that this format is a good fit for their goal of having a twist in each episode.  In short, a story is unveiled in flashback which reveals something surprising which impacts them in present-day.  Having two stories in two settings per episode gives the semblance that more stuff is happening.  

 

I too would like to see more adventures in other lands, but I think it is difficult for the writers to have one storyline playing out in Storybrooke, with characters left behind, and then a parallel storyline with other characters concurrently in the Enchanted Forest or Camelot or elsewhere.  They need a way to connect the two storylines.  The Burning Room in 2A, I thought, was a clever way of providing a link between characters in two locations.  Ditto for "Ariel" in 3A.  But this would be hard to maintain for multiple episodes at a time.  

[Souris]

I imagine it's also cheaper to use sets they already have built, rather than create new ones (either by building them manually or with CGI).

[Camera One]

Yeah, it's probably easier to shoot into the night in-studio where they have Granny's diner or Snow's loft, etc. versus having to go out into the forest every day.  CGI is probably expensive, and maybe they thought "Wonderland" was partly a turn-off due to too much CGI.  I didn't mind it, but maybe some viewers see too much cartoonish backgrounds and they turn away.

[KAOS Agent]

They're pretty well tied into Enchanted Forest/Storybrooke, so I don't see why it would be any different to have Foresty New Land in the present and flashback Storybrooke for the past. Something like they did with "Broken" where the Enchanted Forest scenes were actually the present and the Storybrooke stuff was the past.

[Curio]

They're pretty well tied into Enchanted Forest/Storybrooke, so I don't see why it would be any different to have Foresty New Land in the present and flashback Storybrooke for the past. Something like they did with "Broken" where the Enchanted Forest scenes were actually the present and the Storybrooke stuff was the past.

 

Exactly. With the imminent search for Merlin that will probably lead the gang to Camelot, 5A could be the perfect half season to do Camelot/Enchanted Forest during the present timeline and then do some flashbacks to Storybrooke during the 6 weeks we missed before the Chernabog came to town. I feel like we'll need those flashbacks of levity because Emma being the Dark One will probably cast a darker tone over the present timeline.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Curio

[Camera One]

I think it might be tougher to do Storybrooke flashbacks than Fairytale Land flashbacks, because the Fairytale Land flashbacks allows them to go back to any point in a huge stretch of time, from pre-Rumple as Dark One, all the way to right before the Wardrobe, and all events in between, whereas there's very little missing time from Storybrooke to tell in flashbacks, unless they do a time jump.

 

So one way to reverse Fairytale Land/Storybrooke is to have everyone wake up in Camelot at the beginning of Season 5, a year later, and they gradually reveal what happened in Storybrooke after Emma became the Dark One following the events of the 4B finale.  The problem with that is, they would need to give everyone amnesia again for that to happen.

 

That's an interesting idea to show the 6 weeks between 4A and 4B.  I would love to see some of those everyday moments the characters lived during that peaceful period.  Unfortunately, I don't think the writers have interest in using flashbacks for that purpose.  They generally need flashbacks to reveal something surprising which would be relevant in the present-day.  This seemed to be the case with the Missing Year flashbacks.  We saw very little of the characters adjusting to life back in the Enchanted Forest, and each flashback was more plot-oriented focused on some magical object needed in the present-day.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

I think it might be tougher to do Storybrooke flashbacks than Fairytale Land flashbacks, because the Fairytale Land flashbacks allows them to go back to any point in a huge stretch of time, from pre-Rumple as Dark One, all the way to right before the Wardrobe, and all events in between, whereas there's very little missing time from Storybrooke to tell in flashbacks, unless they do a time jump.

 

That's one of the most frustrating things about the flashbacks lately—there's so much timeline to explore and so many characters who need fleshing out, and yet, we get the most random and repetitive flashbacks that don't do much to advance the plot. How many jokes do we make about Regina vs. Snow Round 45634562 on here? And then there are totally random flashback moments like Regina tearing down Snow's riding ribbons, Charming battling Bo Peep, Belle's adventure with Anna, and the Queens of Darkness battling the Chernabog that make you say, "What? Why is that important? That doesn't add much substance to the current plot or characters." Even the Ursula flashback with Hook (which I thought was very entertaining) was basically a carbon copy of "The Jolly Roger" episode, except with different characters.

 

I would love to see some of those everyday moments the characters lived during that peaceful period. Unfortunately, I don't think the writers have interest in using flashbacks for that purpose. They generally need flashbacks to reveal something surprising which would be relevant in the present-day.

 

This is another frustrating thing about the show. I wish they would spend more time showing these characters lives without any ulterior motive or secret looming in the background for the plot's sake. If they really want the flashbacks to reveal something, they can be subtle character reveals instead of *big shocking twists*. They could show a flashback of Hook taking Emma out on a date where he notices some personality quirk that helps the gang find her in the present timeline. Or maybe they do a Hook/Henry episode where Henry starts to get upset with Hook because he's trying a bit too hard to be a controlling father figure when Dark One Emma is gone, and they could parallel that tension with a flashback to that time Hook took Henry sailing during "Breaking Glass." Perhaps an incident from that sailing time in the past could remind Hook that he needs to give Henry some space, or Henry could remember something Hook said during that initial sailing trip that reminds him to give Hook some slack in the present timeline.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Curio

[kitticup]

That's one of the most frustrating things about the flashbacks lately—there's so much timeline to explore and so many characters who need fleshing out, and yet, we get the most random and repetitive flashbacks that don't do much to advance the plot. How many jokes do we make about Regina vs. Snow Round 45634562 on here? And then there are totally random flashback moments like Regina tearing down Snow's riding ribbons, Charming battling Bo Peep, Belle's adventure with Anna, and the Queens of Darkness battling the Chernabog that make you say, "What? Why is that important? That doesn't add much substance to the current plot or characters." Even the Ursula flashback with Hook (which I thought was very entertaining) was basically a carbon copy of "The Jolly Roger" episode, except with different characters.

This is another frustrating thing about the show. I wish they would spend more time showing these characters lives without any ulterior motive or secret looming in the background for the plot's sake. If they really want the flashbacks to reveal something, they can be subtle character reveals instead of *big shocking twists*. They could show a flashback of Hook taking Emma out on a date where he notices some personality quirk that helps the gang find her in the present timeline. Or maybe they do a Hook/Henry episode where Henry starts to get upset with Hook because he's trying a bit too hard to be a controlling father figure when Dark One Emma is gone, and they could parallel that tension with a flashback to that time Hook took Henry sailing during "Breaking Glass." Perhaps an incident from that sailing time in the past could remind Hook that he needs to give Henry some space, or Henry could remember something Hook said during that initial sailing trip that reminds him to give Hook some slack in the present timeline.

I would want a Neverback to Bae if they want to parallel Hook's relationship with Henry. I really want to know what happened between those two. Edited May 15, 2015 by kitticup

[Trini]

I was already a casual viewer for the past 2 seasons, but this is going to be my last season of OUAT. I just have no interest in Zelena(why is she alive again??), DragonDaddy, or Dark Emma. If they ever decide to let Aladdin and Jasmine on the show, I might watch that episode.

[myril]

One reason is they seem to want to have half the action in Storybrooke, to have that dichotomy.  Even though Storybrooke is getting old, in some ways, it's nice to see a mix of fantasy and present-day.  The problem is moreso that they are not truly exploring the workings of Storybrooke nor modern issues.  If they did (with the oft-mentioned suggestion of having zero magic in Storybrooke), this dichotomy could be starker and more worthwhile.

 

This, it was the charm of season 1 to me: seeing the fairy tale characters in our world without magic and in their world (past) with magic, in both places as real people with real issues but somewhat different options and challenges how to solve their problems. It was even okay, that after the first Dark Curse was broken, they brought some limited magic even to Storybrooke, but think it should have stayed more limited and hard to create and use. Possible I was complaining about too little Storybrooke in season 3A even, but not so much for the place but for the different dynamics it once meant. A follow-up of the woes of getting too little time with exploring the reactions of the characters now remembering who they were, with their real identities back, to our world with no or very limited magic. But think for others it was more about specific characters, namely Belle, who was left behind in Storybrooke.

 

Still miss that dichotomoy, or it being stronger and an ongoing theme in the show. Although the Author arc in a way played as well with a dichotomy of messy real life with often enough unsatisfying solutions and compromises, and on the other side fiction, where ethics and life can so conveniently be simplified  to achieve the happy ending.

 

Practically, with such a big cast, main and supporting characters, think you have to have a sort of home, a base, where everybody comes together and which can be threatened to be destroyed, even if you sent some people regularly on a quest to other realms. Unless you put them all on a huge ship to travel around together.

 

Of course, finally could leave Storybrooke for good, settle all back in the Enchanted Forest, and be done with our world, maybe once in a while for some reason have to send someone there to retrieve something or someone. As they could travel to other realms. Some people would like it,  others would miss the connection with our world, but IMO for sure it would be a very different show.

Edited May 15, 2015 by myril

[YaddaYadda]

They could show a flashback of Hook taking Emma out on a date where he notices some personality quirk that helps the gang find her in the present timeline.

 

They could show random stuff really for any character who is close to Emma just to show how much they miss her if she's gone from Storybrooke.  Two seasons running they had both David and Hook talk to Emma about moments and how she has to learn to live in between crisis and this is what she basically did.  I was impressed that Emma was out on a stroll with Hook right after she found out Maleficent had been resurrected.  Given who Emma is, Twilight Zone much?

 

Henry can have a flashback during their missing year of something he and Emma did together that ties in directly to the people they left behind.  Or Emma can have flashbacks of happier times which makes her double her efforts to get back to the people she loves.  

[Curio]

I would want a Neverback to Bae if they want to parallel Hook's relationship with Henry. I really want to know what happened between those two.

 

I'm sorry, but it looks like you submitted a request for one Neverland flashback for the following characters: 1) Hook and 2) Baelfire. This combination of setting and characters are not on the Once Upon a Time acceptable list of interesting flashback material. Please try again.*

 

*If you would like your proposal to skip through to the final round of executive approval, please include the following characters: 1) Regina, 2) Rumplestiltskin, 3) A Random Villain, or 4) An Egg Baby.

 

They could show random stuff really for any character who is close to Emma just to show how much they miss her if she's gone from Storybrooke.  Two seasons running they had both David and Hook talk to Emma about moments and how she has to learn to live in between crisis and this is what she basically did.  I was impressed that Emma was out on a stroll with Hook right after she found out Maleficent had been resurrected.

 

Yes, they could pretty much show any unique character combination in Storybrooke and have it be an interesting study of character development. It's amazing to me how little certain characters talk to each other on this show. Henry was only allowed to talk to Regina for most of Season 4 and barely interacted with Emma until the finale. Hook never had a one-on-one conversation with Snow, David, or Regina in 4B. David is never allowed to talk to anyone unless Snow is next to him or the occasional time he's allowed to be co-sheriff with Emma. Will was basically a non-entity. Belle had the most interesting conversations with Hook because it's a combination we aren't used to. As much as I don't enjoy Henry as a character, he was at least tolerable in the finale because he got to interact with a lot of characters he doesn't get to talk to much in Storybrooke anymore.

Edited May 15, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

Henry was only allowed to talk to Regina for most of Season 4 and barely interacted with Emma until the finale. Hook never had a one-on-one conversation with Snow, David, or Regina in 4B.

 

Snow and Regina haven't had a conversations since 4x08 and I wish they hadn't had that conversations.

Snow and David don't really talk.

Snow and Emma never talk.

Snow and Hook have never had a talk.

Emma and David sort of talk.

Emma and Regina do sort of talk.

Emma and Henry haven't had a talk since season 2.

Emma and Hook do have some talks.

David and Hook haven't "talked" since 4x02.

David and Regina never talk.

David and Henry nothing since season 2.

Henry and Regina spend time together but don't really talk (last sort of convo was in 4x08)

Henry and Hook don't talk (sort of convo in 3x16 I think when Hook took him out)

Hook hasn't had a talk with Regina since 3x01.

 

In conclusion, nobody really talks to each other on this show and these five characters are supposed to be the core of the show.  I don't count Belle and Rumple because they are on the fringes of that.  But Belle and Rumple even though they have only each other, well they don't talk either.

[Curio]

Snow and Regina haven't had a conversations since 4x08 and I wish they hadn't had that conversations.

Snow and David don't really talk.

 

Technically, Snow and Regina had that talk about the egg baby secret in the rain at night, and Snow and David talked a lot about keeping secrets from Emma, but I don't blame you for not including lame conversations about egg babies on your list.

 

So yeah, it's strange to me that the main five characters on the show (Emma, Regina, Hook, Snow, and Charming) barely interact with each other using normal conversations. Or interact at all. Even the show's closest episode to being a "bottle episode" (White Out), which is normally the best way to force characters to interact with each other, only had Hook and Charming interacting. And since they were so caught up in saving Emma, we didn't even get any deep or meaningful conversations out of it. Yeah, we got Charming being a bit protective of Emma and questioning Hook's intentions, but that's it. No conversation about their fireside chat from the past, no conversation about what plans Hook has for the future and how he feels about Emma...nothing.

[YaddaYadda]

No conversation about their fireside chat from the past, no conversation about what plans Hook has for the future and how he feels about Emma...nothing.

 

To be fair and it might just be me, I thought all of White Out was designed to show how Hook really felt about Emma and for David to get to see that Emma was actually reciprocating.  Yeah, he did give Hook some "grief" when he came to take Emma out on their date, but it wasn't anything to really write about.

 

I thought it was interesting that David is the one who truly got to witness that relationship progress.  Between 3A when he was trying to keep Hook from Emma to deckhand!Hook sacrificing his life for her.  That was more show than tell, true, but I don't David has any doubts in his mind.

Edited May 15, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

That was more show than tell, true, but I don't David has any doubts in his mind.

 

Between the time travel adventure, the fireside chat, White Out, and deckhand Hook sacrificing his life for Emma (all scenes in which Charming was present for), I hope the writers are done with Charming's offhanded comments about "reputations" and "maybe he really has changed" and "if Ursula hasn't turned him evil yet." 

[tennisgurl]

I always really wanted an episode where there is not big plot or flashbacks, just all the characters talking to each other. Like, there is a party at Granny`s, and everyone gets a chance to talk, and maybe hash out some of their issues. Hell, lets bring back the MIA supporting cast! You have all these characters, with interesting, complex histories and backstories. Use them! 

[maryle]

I'm thinking that since season 1 the show runners unfortunately forget about a their real vision of each character so they can apease the fans of each character and that have imact the show in a big way . In fact they keep their fundamental vision but just blurry the line so evryone can take what they please in canon and forget about what contradict their vision of their favorite. Regina is an example of them want the EQ and a redeem Regina but Rumple too demonstrate that as well. Season 4 clearly show they want Rumple as as master manipulator and basically irredeemable character. But since skin deep in Rumbelle they try to keep this relationships too. So, they have to show Rumple be a liar and coward for their story keep working but keep son0me vagueness about if he could be a good man in the botom. So they just do not embrase either option clearly, because they cannot go all the way evil without losing the Rumbelle story. It is a shame really because Rumple work so much better as evil character than as a hero . But it seems that everyone want their favorite to be the hero of the story. Adam and Eddy gave the fans what they want but if Rumple, Regina, Hook, Emma, Zelena. are all hero they just become to similar and their personnal journey become very repetitive fast. Add all the gest villain too.

[stealinghome]

imo the problem the creators have with Storybrooke, much as I enjoy the balance between the Storybrooke and flashback sides of the show, is that if there's no magic/magical adventure, there's no plot in Storybrooke. Now, I agree that the show didn't have to be that way--Storybrooke is only out of story because the writers rushed through what should have been several seasons' worth of story in S2--but at this point the die is cast and it is what it is, and I just don't think there's a whole lot of interesting story to tell if the Storybrooke people's lives aren't disrupted by some outside force. (Because believe me, I have no interest in seeing Outlaw Queen go on date after date after date and find increasingly ickier places to have sex, which is what you know would happen.) I agree that the main characters could all stand to talk WAY more--and that the writers need to switch up the standard conversational pairs way more--and I would love one or two bottle episodes, but that alone can't power an entire season in Storybrooke, much less several seasons.

 

This is why I really wish they hadn't blown the Home Office story in S2/retconned it away in S3. Having a "real world" threat would be an excellent counterpoint to the magical threats in the fairybacks, but they bungled that storyline and I think have been scared off of doing anything similar since.

Edited May 15, 2015 by stealinghome

[FurryFury]

I don't want a series of flashbacks to Storybrooke during season 4. It would start to look contrived very, very soon because nothing of note has happened in that time - otherwise, they'd have told us. So, it's either retcons galore or something uninteresting. It could work as one episode, but not a half-season, not by a long shot.

 

I love character moments as much as most of you, but you can't fill half of each episode with them for that long (or even more, considering that they should happen in the present as well). 

Edited May 15, 2015 by FurryFury

[Shanna Marie]

One reason is they seem to want to have half the action in Storybrooke, to have that dichotomy.  Even though Storybrooke is getting old, in some ways, it's nice to see a mix of fantasy and present-day.

One way to do that might be to have them facing "real world" kinds of problems in Storybrooke -- not necessarily a super-powerful magic big bad with an End The World kind of scheme, but the kinds of problems a sheriff's department might handle, with the twist being that one of the sheriffs is Prince Charming and the suspects are fairy tale characters. They have former Black Knights and pirates in town. Bo Peep is in town. Surely there were criminals and opposing factions in the Enchanted Forest who might be playing out their conflicts in Storybrooke. Flashbacks could show the roots of those conflicts back in the Enchanted Forest and how they were dealt with there, which would be a clue or a contrast to how to deal with them now, or show the difference with how Emma deals with them vs. how Regina dealt with them under her rule. And if they still want it to be an arc with huge consequences, even a petty criminal could cause major problems by stealing the wrong thing and accidentally setting it off or using it the wrong way. They could start the season with the "A" story taking place in flashbacks and the Storybrooke side being closer to "day in the life," with just dealing with regular sheriff stuff, with the ultimate villain being just another petty crook, and then gradually transition to the Storybrooke side being the "A" story once the item we've seen that was so dangerous in the flashbacks comes into play there.

 

One of my disappointments is that there is so little present day other than the big crisis with the Big Bad, so little of the fun of seeing what the fairy tale characters are doing in our world. When they do it, it can be so great, like Bo Peep running a butcher shop, the Snow Queen running the ice cream shop, Jiminy Cricket as a psychiatrist, the tendency to jump to torches and pitchforks. And all the Good Morning Storybrooke stuff that should really be in the real show instead of just on the DVDs or YouTube channel.