S04.E10: A Novel Marriage

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

Liza is drawn into her author's Upper East Side life, forcing her worlds to collide. Kelsey comes to Lauren's rescue.

[Armchair Critic]

I like Jay (of course Liza was on the verge of getting busted but managed to slip away again).

I am still skeptical about Richard, I hope Diana sticks to her 1 week about his son.

I can understand Liza's in a tough position with Charles, I guess this was a practical way to keep them apart and drag out that storyline.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

So, I bet Josh either proposes to Claire or decides to go to Ireland with her by the season finale. Either way, she's revealed to be a manipulative shrew. 

Jay and Liza for endgame! Romantically and professionally. Not gonna happen, but a girl can dream. 

Please let Lauren get start up financing to move to LA and off the show. Every time I hear her inane babbling, I lose an IQ point. At this rate she's gonna have me trying to eat soup with a fork. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by ZuluQueenOfDwarves
Aasif Mandvi is named Jay, Grant Shaud is Bob, and these distinctions are important.

[voiceover]

So we're being set up for marriage-for-a-green card, right?  And Full House, with Lauren & Irish moving in.

I guess tonight's kiss, kills the idea of Liza moving to that publisher so she doesn't have that employer/ employee conflict thing.

I still don't like Charles's wife.  I know I'm blocking character names here because I'm so totally suspicious of both women.

But!  Last week I watched the season premiere of Girlfriend's Guide to Divorce Bossing Up (also known as "If we rename it maybe you'll think it's a different show!").  End result?  Now this series feels like Woody Allen: The Early Years by comparison. 

[HunterHunted]

I'm quickly losing my patience with the Richard and his entitled obnoxious son storyline.

This is Lauren's first half decent storyline in a long time. I don't love the character, but she should consult part-time with Millennial and Empirical. Both seem kind of clueless when it comes to marketing to millennials.

I like Liza and Jay as friends turned lovers turned friends. They aren't going to last, but they have a good easy chemistry.

Pauline is still sort of a disaster. She took a year off and wrote a book. She's managed to come to the conclusion that she wants her family back. That's all well and good, but she felt so stifled as a wife and mother that she ran. Now that she's tasted some success as a writer you would think she'd put some conditions on what she needs if she comes back. But she's so fragile that she's dragging Liza to every event she has to go to. She must be exhausting to be with.

Edited August 31, 2017 by HunterHunted

[voiceover]

I love the idea of Millenial hiring Lauren as their PR person!!  @HunterHunted, thanks for pointing this out -- I'm not even jealous that you thought of it before I did?, and I really hope the show does this.

Needing more Maggie.  Hope the knife-wielding & chicken-murdering isn't all we're going to get.

"Exhausting" is exactly what Pauline is.  So. Fucking. Needy!  I get it, she's a writer, she needs her hand held.  But she's also putting Liza into the role of therapist (and Liza's letting her do it, which is irritating). That's why I still suspect that she suspects, Charles & Liza are a Thing.

[rho]

Pauline has been a prominent character in 4 episodes so far and she's basically just repeated variations of the same two lines:

1) "This book changed my life"
2) "I think Charles is going to let me move back in."

She's a broken record and I am so bored! Charles is simultaneously trying to please everyone but also guilt tripping them. He's turned into a giant baby.

Loving Jay! He's adorable and I love that he's Liza's "beard" but I'm going to be really fucking pissed if she drags him into the trash fire that is Pauline + Charles + Liza.

[Snarklepuss]

The title of this series is beginning to have new significance for me because I would have to be "younger" to really appreciate some of the predictable soap opera plot twists it's degenerated into.  I know I've seen them a million times before.  Who didn't see Josh's Irish girlfriend's visa problem from 10 miles away? Wasn't that straight out of "General Hospital" 30 years ago?  Or was it "One Life to Live"?  I can't remember.  But I really don't care because I've checked my mind at the door for this show by now, and I have to admit it's all because of Charles.

And oooooooh, now we see another peek at Charles' hidden "interesting" side with the cigarette.  What's next, a binge drinking problem and a criminal record?  I know the show is manipulating me and yet I stopped caring about that because it's making me completely unable to resist Charles no matter what he does or says.  So now in spite of myself I'm a complete slut for Charles.  Yeah, I know what I said last week and the week before, etc., but all that rational, mature stuff is becoming increasingly irrelevant to me because of the way the show is FUCKING with my head, LOL.  And I guess I'm along for the ride, but how frustrating has THAT been so far?  They're not going to let us Team Charles people have our way until they have US smoking cigarettes, stripping naked and howling at the TV screen.  By the time it's all over I won't care if HE strips naked and pounds her in the middle of Times Square as long as it finally happens! 

I know it's probably me, but I love the way Peter Hermann is playing the role.  He's being so "Clark Kent" about it, but I just FEEL there's a Superman under that suit that he keeps hidden.  And I personally don't find anything sexier than THAT.  The more layers they peel away from him like an onion, the more intrigued I am to see what's really under there.  I'm hoping they're not setting me up for disappointment.  There has to be more there than meets the eye with him and I took the cigarette and "page 58" as little teases to that effect.  Plus he is showing signs of having a lot of emotion under there that's threatening to erupt at any moment.  He has to get angry and take a stand for Liza at some point, so having her date someone else will only help that process along.  I hope, anyway!

[Aulty]

There better is some big reveal scheduled for one of the last two episodes where Liza finally grabs Charles and the needy Ex (how annoying is she!) is driven off.

Count me in on Team 'Lauren working for Empirical', I also think the greencard marriage will happen. Maybe Diana kicks out Richard and starts pining for Charles again next season, becoming BFF with Maggie while he and Liza are secretly ... oh I've drifted off again, haven't I ;-)

Also, is there someone around who can enlighten me about the usual timeline for a book? It seems that process is unnaturally sped up (like that LL Moore pseudonym sex book), while all the social stories are slowed down. So from Charles confession (where Liza first met Pauline) to the point where half of the book is edited it would be months, wouldn't it? And Charles and Liza have not worked anything out yet?

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Once an editor has signed on a book, publishing it is a two year process. Rewrites, edits, publicity, inasmuch as it's going to be publicized, which, unless it's a major name author, is a book release party on a Tuesday night at a bookstore, attended by the author's family and writing group. But that's for fiction, memoir, essays, etc. work a little faster. 

[luna1122]

It probably says a lot of immature things about me that I never found Charles as hot as when he was dragging on a cigarette. And I actually hate smoking, but it's the James Dean effect or something. Tho in Charles' case, it's more Cary Grant, I guess.

The 'let's keep them apart' devices for Liza and Charles are starting to get boring, tho. Or maybe they got boring a long time ago. I actually thought Liza was pretty cold, telling him the book kind of meant more to her than anything they might have together. I mean...she's right, and that's smart, but I'm unclear on her actual motivations at this point. Is she actually in love with him? Is she keeping her distance now because she's been lying about her life and her age to him for so long? The truth could definitely hurt her career, and she could still lose him too, if she ever gets with him, but I'm not at all sure what she's actually THINKING most of the time.

I like Aasif Mandvi, but I just don't see him as a romantic interest. There's no heat there.

I liked a lot of the fashion tonite. The dresses Pauline and Liza wore to the party, Lauren's outfit with the red lace skirt and the sparkly whatever it was top (tho not so much the second day, worn backwards).

[Angelus82]

 Is it just me or does it seem like Liza doesn't have as much passion for Charles?  At first, it seemed like she did and now this season it seems like it has definitely waned on her side. You have this smart and gorgeous man making these out of character declarations and all Liza does is stand there looking aloof? I know she jumped him a couple of times but she's always pulling back or holding back. I've been team Charles from the beginning and seeing her lack of emotion has made me sad. If I was Charles; I'd move on too.

[Angelus82]

Btw, totally agree with the poster who said Charles smoking that cigarette was super sexy. I, too, despise smoking but seeing all that pent up frustration and the way he was dragging on that cigarette was a turn on. This coming from someone who broke up with a guy for smoking because the smell was so disgusting. ?‍♀️

[Snarklepuss]

2 hours ago, luna1122 said:

It probably says a lot of immature things about me that I never found Charles as hot as when he was dragging on a cigarette. And I actually hate smoking, but it's the James Dean effect or something. Tho in Charles' case, it's more Cary Grant, I guess.

For me it's more the Humphrey Bogart effect.  You know, Bogie sitting there at Rick's Cafe Americain in his white suit, looking depressed and dragging on a stogie as he laments, "Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she has to walk into mine".  Bogie was never more attractive to me than in that scene!  Charles had that kind of effect on me.  And yeah, I'll cop to being immature about it too, LOL.

22 minutes ago, Angelus82 said:

 Is it just me or does it seem like Liza doesn't have as much passion for Charles?  At first, it seemed like she did and now this season it seems like it has definitely waned on her side. You have this smart and gorgeous man making these out of character declarations and all Liza does is stand there looking aloof? I know she jumped him a couple of times but she's always pulling back or holding back. I've been team Charles from the beginning and seeing her lack of emotion has made me sad. If I was Charles; I'd move on too.

I think working with his ex and seeing how much she is still trying to get back with him is like a huge bucket of ice water poured over Liza's head.  She feels like she's the "other woman" and is trying reeeaaallly hard to not have feelings for a guy that is potentially unavailable.  I can't say that I blame her from her POV to be honest, but I'm hoping that both of them eventually come to the point where can't help themselves and overcome any guilt or confusion to FINALLY get together.

[MoreCoffeePlease]

Quote

It probably says a lot of immature things about me that I never found Charles as hot as when he was dragging on a cigarette. And I actually hate smoking, but it's the James Dean effect or something. Tho in Charles' case, it's more Cary Grant, I guess.

I absolutely HATE smoking, but I LOVE Charles.  Liza should have taken the cigarette from him, taken a drag herself, and then put it out.

[gesundheit]

I still don't see the appeal of Charles. Oh, well. I'm probably the wrong audience for this show since they assume we're all drooling (I don't find constantly pouting and sulking about a woman he hasn't been on a single date with particularly attractive). The other reason I'm probably the wrong audience is how much I hate the way they treat Diana. She's not dumb, she wouldn't be where she is if she were dumb, and they can stop having most of her character beats be at her expense any second -- why would Liza laugh at the idea that someone so successful thinks of herself as a mentor? She's her freaking assistant, that's a reasonable assumption, that was supposed to be the point of applying for the job. I feel like they go with the easiest humor for everything surrounding Diana but none of it actually makes sense when you look at the logic of the situations. Other characters are allowed to be funny on this show without constantly being the butt of the joke (okay, I guess not Kelsey or Charles, they're never funny). It's Miriam Shor, for crap's sake!

[luna1122]

13 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

I still don't see the appeal of Charles. Oh, well. I'm probably the wrong audience for this show since they assume we're all drooling (I don't find constantly pouting and sulking about a woman he hasn't been on a single date with particularly attractive). The other reason I'm probably the wrong audience is how much I hate the way they treat Diana. She's not dumb, she wouldn't be where she is if she were dumb, and they can stop having most of her character beats be at her expense any second -- why would Liza laugh at the idea that someone so successful thinks of herself as a mentor? She's her freaking assistant, that's a reasonable assumption, that was supposed to be the point of applying for the job. I feel like they go with the easiest humor for everything surrounding Diana but none of it actually makes sense when you look at the logic of the situations. Other characters are allowed to be funny on this show without constantly being the butt of the joke (okay, I guess not Kelsey or Charles, they're never funny). It's Miriam Shor, for crap's sake!

I find the actor handsome but am not really into Charles (dragging on a cig notwithstanding) and yeah, his relationship and intentions toward Liza are so weird and ill defined. I blame that on the writers more than him, but generally, I find Charles kind of dull. I'm not sure TPTB assume we're ALL drooling, but I think they want us to invested in Charles/Liza as a couple, and I'm really not.

I agree about Diana being treated like a joke. She's a weirdo, to be sure, but everyone is, in their own way, and she's attractive and successful, so yeah, Liza smirking at the mentor comment or Pauline eye rolling at the idea that Charles could possibly find her attractive is pretty stupid. However, Miriam Shor handles the role with such incredible aplomb. She had a moment last nite, when her annoying boyfriend was sort of pushing her backwards toward the built in bookshelves....I can't really describe or pinpoint it, but she did this little frowny, glancing-behind-her face that seemed at once incredibly realistic but also really funny. She's so good.

[dubbel zout]

I hate the way Diana is treated so much of the time. She's on the wrong end of way too much gotcha stuff.

[HunterHunted]

1 hour ago, MoreCoffeePlease said:

I absolutely HATE smoking, but I LOVE Charles.  Liza should have taken the cigarette from him, taken a drag herself, and then put it out.

That would have communicated everything Liza needs to tell Charles right now. Taking the cigarette shows that she's assertive and ambitious. Taking a drag communicates that she's stressed too. Putting it out shows that she's adult enough to shove their bullshit by the wayside. I think that it would have been far too sexy for Charles to handle and would have made Charles more besotted with Liza.

[gesundheit]

I'm sure Peter Hermann is a wonderful person -- I mean look who married him -- but I don't feel like he brings much to an already-underwritten role. Why on EARTH did Maggie suggest that Liza actually "loves" Charles last night? I hope that was meant in more of a playful-crush way and not legitimately.

[HunterHunted]

I get that Pauline and Liza are supposed to be mirrors. I guess I'm just bothered by how needy Pauline is and how willing she is to jump back to the status quo. Liza's conversation with Charles last night was the first she's been vocal about advancing her career during this Pauline mess. If this job was just about supporting herself and her daughter, Liza would be back at the Paramus mall. I hope a relationship with Jay is accompanied with a career focused period by Liza.

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

Liza's conversation with Charles last night was the first she's been vocal about advancing her career during this Pauline mess.

I haven't see this episode yet (is there a way to watch it online? The TVLand site has everything locked), but I'd hate for Liza's desire for a career to become secondary to being with Charles—or any man. It's not as if Caitlin is 5 and needs constant tending. Liza is at a point in her life where she can be selfish and do what she wants, and if that means a career, she should get it. I hope the show isn't framing this desire as a bad thing.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

2 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

If this job was just about supporting herself and her daughter, Liza would be back at the Paramus mall. I hope a relationship with Jay is accompanied with a career focused period by Liza.

Preach! I'm so tired of the narrative that Liza is pulling this age con for Caitlyn's sake. She had options for boring mom jobs in Jersey, but she took this chance because she wanted a chance to take back what she'd given up. And I'm all for women doing for themselves (once their children are GROWN, Pauline, not faffing off for a year while they're little), but while it's okay to be selfish, don't try to act like what you're doing is justified by being the selfless act you're doing for your daughter's sake. Eating/having cake, and all that. 

[Lady Writer]

I just discovered this show through on-demand binge watching a couple months ago, and I guess I'm one of the few who think Liza and Josh are clearly meant to be. Actually, until I started reading this forum and saw that most people seemed to consider Liza and Charles the given, it never even occurred to me that the show was trying to portray anything other than Liza and Josh as the eventual couple. In fact, I've never understood exactly why Liza inspires so much passion in Josh, but I guess seeing the way he is with Claire just shows he's a passionate guy. I mean, not that there's anything wrong with Liza, but she does seem to knock a lot of men off their feet.

Am I the only one still tortured by the lack of closure over Josh's roommate's disappearance? I mean, just give us a throwaway line or something: "You know, Kelsey, it's so nice not to have whippet remains in the fridge all the time, so it really turned out for the best that [Insert name I've forgotten here] moved on up to the East Side, to that deluxe apartment in the sky-yy/developed that raging tattoo ink allergy/died in that horrific bong accident."

I love all the twists and turns of this show. I don't find them soap opera-ish (or that predictable, for the most part); I think they're handled very deftly -- with sophistication, not cheese. It keeps me guessing, like a good mystery. And even the boss, now that she's shown her non-bitch side, has grown on me. For the first season or two I just couldn't help thinking how perfect the woman who played Karen on Will and Grace would have been for that role. But now I do appreciate her treatment and like her subtlety. Very funny this episode when she said she considered herself a mentor and Liza was like, "Tooo?" [Ironically, I wrote this paragraph before I went back and read some recent comments criticizing this very line, so I guess senses of humor differ. I've never heard of Miriam Shor, so to me she's a perfectly legitimate target for comedy, but in checking out old threads I see frequent comments that "this is Miriam Shor!" so I guess she's well-known by others.]

It's interesting to read people's predictions about Claire. I was thinking Josh might ask Liza to offer her a job, but I guess they'd have to prove the job couldn't be done by an American? Is that how it goes? I assume that's why the bar can't get her a visa?

Personally, putting out an adult's cigarette reads like controlling bitch to me -- not sexy -- but to each her own.

Quote

And Full House, with Lauren & Irish moving in.

Lauren does still have her parents, so losing her job doesn't need to affect her living situation.

Love this site, so thanks, people at Previously TV!

[MortysCleaningLady]

Diana needs to kick out Richard and his couch surfer son.

 

I love the idea of Jay -- he's being written to perfectly.   Of course, Liza will simply use him and break his heart.   I hate that.   He deserves better.

[BabyVegas]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I haven't see this episode yet (is there a way to watch it online? The TVLand site has everything locked), but I'd hate for Liza's desire for a career to become secondary to being with Charles—or any man. It's not as if Caitlin is 5 and needs constant tending. Liza is at a point in her life where she can be selfish and do what she wants, and if that means a career, she should get it. I hope the show isn't framing this desire as a bad thing.

Try logging in with Twitter or Facebook. That got around the issue for me.

I don't really like putting Jay in the middle of the Liza/Charles problem. We all know she's hung up on Charles, she knows she's hung up on Charles, she'll just end up hurting Jay. At least in my mind, it seems like kind of a crappy thing to do.

[Bort]

2 hours ago, Lady Writer said:

It's interesting to read people's predictions about Claire. I was thinking Josh might ask Liza to offer her a job, but I guess they'd have to prove the job couldn't be done by an American? Is that how it goes? I assume that's why the bar can't get her a visa?

She's in on an internship, which is a work visa. I'm assuming the internship is either unpaid or low-paying, hence her working in the bar, but that's okay, because her internship work visa covers that. Once that's over, her visa expires and she can no longer work in the U.S.-- including in the bar. She'd have to go home and reapply.

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, BabyVegas said:

Try logging in with Twitter or Facebook. That got around the issue for me.

I don't have accounts for either, and I'm not going to sign up for them. Oh, well. Thanks anyway!

[rho]

7 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I still don't see the appeal of Charles. Oh, well. I'm probably the wrong audience for this show since they assume we're all drooling (I don't find constantly pouting and sulking about a woman he hasn't been on a single date with particularly attractive). The other reason I'm probably the wrong audience is how much I hate the way they treat Diana. She's not dumb, she wouldn't be where she is if she were dumb, and they can stop having most of her character beats be at her expense any second -- why would Liza laugh at the idea that someone so successful thinks of herself as a mentor? She's her freaking assistant, that's a reasonable assumption, that was supposed to be the point of applying for the job. I feel like they go with the easiest humor for everything surrounding Diana but none of it actually makes sense when you look at the logic of the situations. Other characters are allowed to be funny on this show without constantly being the butt of the joke (okay, I guess not Kelsey or Charles, they're never funny). It's Miriam Shor, for crap's sake!

I agree with ALL of your post but that moment when Liza scoffed at Diana considering herself a mentor made me furious. First of all, she was just plain rude to her boss but also what Diana said basically motivated her this entire episode. I'd really love to see Liza show some gratitude toward Diana instead of treating her like a pest. At the very least, she deserves respect. 

I'm also loving Diana A LOT more ever since they dropped the unrequited crush on Charles. She's too good for him. Honestly, he's better off back with Pauline. They're both whiny cry babies. Please, just spare everyone else and get back together already. Their will they/won't they isn't enough plot to move this story along.

[Lady Writer]

1 hour ago, kariyaki said:

She's in on an internship, which is a work visa. I'm assuming the internship is either unpaid or low-paying, hence her working in the bar, but that's okay, because her internship work visa covers that. Once that's over, her visa expires and she can no longer work in the U.S.-- including in the bar. She'd have to go home and reapply.

Thanks for the info!

I was also thinking that Josh might be able to offer her a job too.

[Lady Writer]

30 minutes ago, rho said:

I agree with ALL of your post but that moment when Liza scoffed at Diana considering herself a mentor made me furious. First of all, she was just plain rude to her boss but also what Diana said basically motivated her this entire episode. I'd really love to see Liza show some gratitude toward Diana instead of treating her like a pest. At the very least, she deserves respect. 

I'm also loving Diana A LOT more ever since they dropped the unrequited crush on Charles. She's too good for him. Honestly, he's better off back with Pauline. They're both whiny cry babies. Please, just spare everyone else and get back together already. Their will they/won't they isn't enough plot to move this story along.

Up until fairly recently, Diana has treated Liza like crap. Why should Liza respect her? I mean, we've seen her slowly melt over the seasons to reveal the goodness inside, but if I were Liza I wouldn't be forgetting all the times I'd been barked at like a dog from across the office to get coffee, answer the phone, deliver a package, whatever.

In fact, I think one of the first times I realized Diana even assigned any value to her was when she said, "It should have been [Whoever the other assistant was]!" after Liza's bike accident. I loved that line, and I think that's when I started liking Diana, if I'm remembering correctly.

[BellyLaughter]

3 hours ago, BabyVegas said:

Try logging in with Twitter or Facebook. That got around the issue for me.

I don't really like putting Jay in the middle of the Liza/Charles problem. We all know she's hung up on Charles, she knows she's hung up on Charles, she'll just end up hurting Jay. At least in my mind, it seems like kind of a crappy thing to do.

Surely it's all leading to Jay's heart being bruised/broken and he blows it all up as he pulls the pin from the hand grenade he's been carrying for Liza.....it's pretty much TV Writing 101 isn't it??

What's that Lucy, another football for me to kick.....

[BabyVegas]

Just now, BellyLaughter said:

Surely it's all leading to Jay's heart being bruised/broken and he blows it all up as he pulls the pin from the hand grenade he's been carrying for Liza.....it's pretty much TV Writing 101 isn't it??

Huh, and here I thought Liza's daughter's friend's father (I wanna say Bob?) and his wife would be her downfall.

[Bort]

1 hour ago, Lady Writer said:

Thanks for the info!

I was also thinking that Josh might be able to offer her a job too.

Only if Josh pays Claire under the table. She can't legally work. And then she's basically an illegal immigrant if she doesn't go home after her visa expires.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

1 hour ago, Lady Writer said:

Up until fairly recently, Diana has treated Liza like crap. Why should Liza respect her? I mean, we've seen her slowly melt over the seasons to reveal the goodness inside, but if I were Liza I wouldn't be forgetting all the times I'd been barked at like a dog from across the office to get coffee, answer the phone, deliver a package, whatever.

I mean, that is her job. Yes, Diana was brusque, but she wasn't Miranda Priestly expecting her assistant to unground a flight at the drop of a hat. She also covered nearly $2,000 of Caitlyn's tuition/Liza's "student loans" when she found out Liza was moonlighting for extra cash. She was definitely written more "Devil Wears Prada" in season one, but over the course of the show, she's proven to be a pretty great colleague. 

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I mean, that is her job. Yes, Diana was brusque, but she wasn't Miranda Priestly expecting her assistant to unground a flight at the drop of a hat. She also covered nearly $2,000 of Caitlyn's tuition/Liza's "student loans" when she found out Liza was moonlighting for extra cash. She was definitely written more "Devil Wears Prada" in season one, but over the course of the show, she's proven to be a pretty great colleague.

Yeah, Diana was cartoonish at the beginning when she expected Liza to know everything without any guidance of any sort, but I also think that's Diana's way of sizing up assistants. If they can handle that, they'll be good, and Liza proved it. It's not the greatest way to manage someone, but at least Diana didn't have Liza run all over town for a copy of the manuscript of the not-yet-published volume of the latest literary must-have. But I'll spare you all my rant on how demeaning TDWP is to Miranda Priestly, the true heroine of that movie.

[voiceover]

@dubbel zout, TVLand is running a repeat of this ep Friday night (11pm West Coast time) -- in case you didn't already know that.

At least in the film, Miranda comes off better than Book-Miranda.  The same was true of the mother in Ordinary People.  There were raves about how Mary Tyler Moore was playing such a bitch -- and I said at the time, Geez, she's Mother Theresa compared to the icebox character in the novel.

[Snarklepuss]

11 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

That would have communicated everything Liza needs to tell Charles right now. Taking the cigarette shows that she's assertive and ambitious. Taking a drag communicates that she's stressed too. Putting it out shows that she's adult enough to shove their bullshit by the wayside. I think that it would have been far too sexy for Charles to handle and would have made Charles more besotted with Liza.

I think it would have been a little too "femme fatale-ish" for Liza and not within her comfort zone to act that way, given the way her character is written.  It would have been very Lauren Bacall-ish in "To Have and Have Not", which was fine for her but IMHO wouldn't work for Liza at this stage of the game with Charles.  Anyway, right now Liza is feeling uncomfortable with pursuing Charles since his wife is back in the picture and so she has pulled way back as a result.  I think if she were 100% comfortable with pursuing him she might feel right about doing something like that, and yeah, it would make him more besotted with her than he already is.

11 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I'm sure Peter Hermann is a wonderful person -- I mean look who married him -- but I don't feel like he brings much to an already-underwritten role. Why on EARTH did Maggie suggest that Liza actually "loves" Charles last night? I hope that was meant in more of a playful-crush way and not legitimately.

Yeah, I was trying to figure out what Maggie meant by that but I think that there is a lot going on between Liza and Charles that is largely unexpressed but smoldering beneath the surface.  To me it feels like an affair of the heart, which can get pretty deep even though the 2 parties have never even dated in the traditional sense.

As far as Peter Hermann goes, I think his under-playing the role is deliberate because actually there are those women out there like me that prefer to see him as a thoroughly intriguing man of mystery.  I'm hoping the writers continue to tease us with the "real" Charles that we have only seen a tiny bit of to this point. I'm thinking that even his own wife has never seen the "real" (AKA interesting and genuine) Charles but I'm hoping that somehow he will feel comfortable about showing that side of himself to Liza eventually.

At this point in the series, Charles is trapped.  It was his decision to publish the book, and it was obviously a good business decision, but he is trapping himself personally in the process.  Because of the book he has to humor his ex and so is not representing himself genuinely in front of her, which is throwing Liza off and making her think he is one step away from getting back with the ex when he's not, and no matter what he says to the contrary, Liza's not buying it right now.  I'm wondering when it will get to the point that Charles says "Screw her and her f-ing book, I don't even want to publish it anymore if it means I can't have YOU" to Liza.

[voiceover]

8 hours ago, Lady Writer said:

Lauren does still have her parents, so losing her job doesn't need to affect her living situation.

It doesn't *need* to, but Kelsey offered up their apt after Lauren included "living at home" on her list of woes.

[Lady Writer]

21 minutes ago, voiceover said:

It doesn't *need* to, but Kelsey offered up their apt after Lauren included "living at home" on her list of woes.

Oh, I missed that.

[luna1122]

Yeah, she said  she just couldn't be that unemployed person still living with her parents. But geez, maybe ask Josh first before you offer up his place as a new home. That place is not that big.

[dmc]

Count me in as someone who also doesn't see Charles' appeal.  Yes he is handsome BUT that's it.  Also...he's still married and he has been pursuing his employee who is like 20 years younger knowing that his company is having issues and he was aware that Liza had a bf.  Yes we know Liza is older but he does not...I want to be into him but I am just like meh about him...

 

So now Liza is kissing Jay...I mean what about Kelsey????

[Snarklepuss]

55 minutes ago, luna1122 said:

Yeah, she said  she just couldn't be that unemployed person still living with her parents. But geez, maybe ask Josh first before you offer up his place as a new home. That place is not that big.

They could sleep in the same bed and end up having a lesbian affair!

OK, I'll see myself out now........

[dubbel zout]

Thanks for the head's up, voiceover; at the moment I'm someplace without cable. I've got the episode on my DVR at home, but I'd hoped to see it before then. 

[Ms Lark]

22 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I'm sure Peter Hermann is a wonderful person -- I mean look who married him

OMG I had no idea! What an awesome couple they must be.  BTW, slightly off-topic, is that him in the Persil commercial or just someone who looks a lot like him?

I really wish they wouldn't keep throwing up roadblocks to them pursuing a relationship. If it's that difficult, it isn't meant to be.

[dubbel zout]

I think they need some roadblocks, as neither Liza nor Charles should jump into another serious relationship. Liza is still newly divorced, and freshly out of a somewhat serious relationship; Charles is only separated. That's not even getting into the employer/employee stuff or Liza's lie.

[CAT19]

18 hours ago, Lady Writer said:

Up until fairly recently, Diana has treated Liza like crap. Why should Liza respect her? I mean, we've seen her slowly melt over the seasons to reveal the goodness inside, but if I were Liza I wouldn't be forgetting all the times I'd been barked at like a dog from across the office to get coffee, answer the phone, deliver a package, whatever.

In fact, I think one of the first times I realized Diana even assigned any value to her was when she said, "It should have been [Whoever the other assistant was]!" after Liza's bike accident. I loved that line, and I think that's when I started liking Diana, if I'm remembering correctly.

I love the Diana character, she's great comic relief. I think her character is written to have this character flaw - some lack of self awareness, and a bit of self grandiosity. She is an accomplished woman, but she may think a little more highly of herself than others do. 

 

The actress is hilarious in all the interviews and behind the scenes stuff. I love her! But I'd never heard of her before, and I think most people probably hadn't/still haven't. I looked up her on Wikipedia and IMDB, and yes, she's been in a lot and obviously a great actress, but I'm not really understanding the "This is Miriam Shor!" stuff either. She's just not as accomplished/famous as Sutton Foster and Hillary Duff. (? Unpopular opinion) 

[amsomething]

6 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

OMG I had no idea! What an awesome couple they must be.  BTW, slightly off-topic, is that him in the Persil commercial or just someone who looks a lot like him?

I really wish they wouldn't keep throwing up roadblocks to them pursuing a relationship. If it's that difficult, it isn't meant to be.

Yes, that is Peter in the Persil commercials.

I've been a Peter Hermann (though not necessarily his characters!) fan for many years now. I loved him on Beautiful People, Cashmere Mafia, Blue Bloods, and SVU, as well as in Philomena and Duane Incarnated. I also saw him in War Horse, and thought he was enchanting.

Edited September 1, 2017 by amsomething
Autocorrect error

[voiceover]

On 9/1/2017 at 6:42 AM, dubbel zout said:

Thanks for the head's up, voiceover; at the moment I'm someplace without cable. I've got the episode on my DVR at home, but I'd hoped to see it before then. 

Ha!  I guessed you probably knew about the repeats/didn't have access, but I do so like to parade my knowledge of TV schedules when I can ?

[Hannah Lee]

I know much of this show has been about Liza's romantic relationships and the Josh vs Charles push-pull.  But each episode seems to make me less and less interested in any of that.  They seem to be going the soap opera route as someone else said, always throwing wrenches into things.  But early on, it seems like the wrenches made sense: Liza attracted to two very different men for different reasons and getting caught and the fallout from that,  Josh being at a different place in life with Liza, and how that made aspects of their relationship difficult, Liza's age lie causing her to hold back and be evasive from Charles (everyone else) preventing her from acting on her connection with him.

But lately, since Charles started telling Liza how he felt, all the plot points seem manipulative and roadblocky solely to be manipulative and roadblocky; they are not very entertaining and don't really make much sense.  We're not quite at the Sports Night'"Dana's Dating Plan" level of ridiculousness yet, but pretty close*.  On one hand, I can see Liza wanting to keep working on Pauline's book from a career perspective, but I don't see why she and Charles don't actually have a conversation about that.  Like, a real conversation, where they are sitting down and taking time to talk through each of their concerns and what they want from the situation, not a quick chat in the middle of a party when any number of people can overhear them or interrupt them.   And how old is Charles anyway, that after one quick conversation, or coming across Liza talking with Jay, that he immediately says "oh, never mind" RE his supposed feelings for Liza and whatever he's been going for there, and decides to reconnect with his ex?  

 

At this point a) I'm over Pauline...yes, sure, she felt stifled in her marriage.  But what she did to her children was pretty unforgivable, and she's not bothering to ask for forgiveness.  There's an interesting story to be told with this character, but Younger doesn't seem interested in it.  Instead we just get Pauline mooning around with no self-awareness, hoping to get back together with Charles.  (has she even mentioned wanting to be around her kids more?  Or is all just "oooh, swoon, Charles, I miss him"?

b) I'm also over Liza's inability to finalize her divorce.  She's got no interest in her ex...so why not make him her ex officially?  I would have said Charles too, but apparently he's too wishy-washy for that.

c) I'm with others over the show using Diana for a punchline so often.  There is comedy gold to be had in Diana being Diana (see Diana eating a corn dog), and her pretentiousness and neediness is part of who she is.  But let the other characters show they actually value her and her expertise sometimes.  She has that job for a reason...let's see it.

d) I'm almost over the idea of Liza being with Charles, or Josh.  Josh throwing a punch at Charles was juvenile, not romantic.  And I have no idea what Charles is going in his relationship with Liza - he's crushing on a (he thinks) 20-something employee who he sometimes uses as a baby-sitter/MO partner/sounding board but doesn't seem to want to actually bother to date her, just preferring to chat with her at work or for a few minutes in between babysitting assignments?

When the most sympathetic person in an episode is Lauren, it's not good.

* yes, I know what show I'm watching, how ridiculous the main premise is, that this is a show that killed off a character by making him go splat on the sidewalk for comedy, but the emotional beats need to ring true no matter how silly the premise