Past Seasons Talk: From Seattle Grace to Grey Sloan Memorial Hospital

[Scatterbrained]

Occasional lurker, 1st time poster.  BREIF BIO, FEEL FREE TO SKIP: I've watched the show on and off through the years, mainly only for certain characters' storylines.  In the last couple of years, I had two babies (16 months apart), and quit my very demanding but intellectually stimulating job.  My husband took a job in another state  a year ago and has been very, very slow to move us to the same location.  Grey's has pretty much been the only grown up show I've watched in the last two years.  I'm now getting enough sleep to form some thoughts.  So, long story short, here I am.  Welcome to this Mama's Watercooler.

 

SHOW THOUGHTS:

I've always wondered about the Avery family and their dynamics ever since THE Harper Avery appeared on the show.  I'm glad they've made Jackson less angsty since then.  I like this character's "lightness" and sense of humor.  Since we've met Catherine, I've had even more questions.  Like, was she accepted into the family immediately, or did she have to work her way in?  Did Harper "get" her and respect her because they were both overachievers with big personalities?  Or, was she the only option to run the foundation because (maybe) Jackson's father was an only child, making Jackson the only grandchild and only heir?  So many questions.

 

People have wondered about the relationship between Catherine, Jackson, and April storylines going forward.  I recently read an article about the show from an editing and storyline standpoint and it's made me think about the concept of "edgic" (I'm probably mangling it, bear with me).  

 

Here's what we know about Catherine: she meddles when she cares.  When April was just a friend of Jackson's, she cared enough about April to meddle in April's life a bit.  I don't recall her meddling in Stephanie's life.  We know that she liked April enough to be FB friends with her at one point in time.  We also know that family is important to her, she wants to be in her granchild's life, and that she wishes that Jackson would move to overturn the divorce. 

 

Here's what we know about April: she has always admired and been inspired by Catherine.  In "Unbreak My Heart" we hear her ask Jackson if he knows Catherine.  Some people feel this is a retcon, insinuating that she and Catherine knew each other before Jackson, but (IMO) not necessarily.  It could indicate that April had been researching for role models in the field of medicine and came across inspiring info on Catherine and followed her career out of interest.  We know that she hasn't always felt understood/validated by her own family.  Other tidbits we learned from this episode were that April initially wanted a "family friendly" career and that she didn't want to change her name when she married Jackson.

 

SPECULATION: I think April and Catherine will patch up their differences (there will probably be some drama first, because that's what this show is).  April may find that her current trauma surgeon career is not family friendly.  Catherine may offer her a family friendly job with the foundation.  April and Jackson may eventually marry again (this time, the "right way"' with friends and family present, and Jackson's Grandma's cake topper) and April will change her name to Avery (or at least hyphenate it with Kepner) as it would make sense if she's working with/representing the Foundation in some way.

 

Baby name speculation:  since they started out/ met at Mercy West and then grew closer at Seattle Grace, I think Mercy Grace might be a good name with a duality of meaning. Hope is also a good and meaningful name.

[apn85]

On 6/26/2016 at 0:42 AM, Marni said:

I do still have a tiny bit of delusional hope for some April/Amelia interaction later in the season if Amelia and Owen start talking about children. If Amelia has concerns about being pregnant again, April would the perfect person for her to talk to, and she's close to Owen.

I didn't even consider this, but you are absolutely right. It would be the perfect excuse to throw those two together.Especially given the fact that Owen and April are so close. Minus the McGuyver c-section at the end (which I am still convinced she will have complications from....be it gangrene from the kitchen knife or dish towels, Post Traumatic Stress, or Postpartum Depression....I am waiting on something to have her in its grips by Episode 1 of S13. No way Shonda is letting her off that easy....), April's pregnancy with this baby wasn't the problem for her this season. 

[apn85]

Scatterbrained: Welcome! I've lurked here forever, just recently started posting some myself. 

I can talk Avery anytime.......

I have always wondered about the whole Avery Family situation also. Obviously, we know that Catherine married into the family so I have always wondered what exactly Jackson's Father did career wise and why the Foundation was entrusted to Catherine rather than him after the divorce. Seeing as how they had a not so amicable divorce as explained by Catherine to Richard just this season, there must have been a clear divide and choice made by Harper Avery himself. So I always wondered did Jackson's Father do something to get himself ostracized from his own family or did he simply leave with no desire to maintain a relationship with any of them including his son. I always assumed, but the scene between Jackson and Richard after he told April she could raise the baby alone (.....yeah ok, tough guy) confirmed that also. Sounded like Jackson didn't have a clue where his Father was. 

Catherine/April - For me this is a little more complicated. I do know that April met Catherine while she was at Mercy West. Since Jackson was also in that same program, I assumed that is why Catherine came around for April to have met her. I don't think Jackson and April were close while at Mercy West. When they first came on the scene at Seattle Grace after the merger it was pretty clear they weren't. I mean they did seem to know one another, but there was no friendship there that I can recall. As a matter of fact, he was among the Mercy West group that talked crap about her after she missed that airway on the lady who ended up dying. That incident was the one that resulted in her being fired the first time. So clearly at that point she and Jackson weren't what I would call friends. I don't remember their relationship really starting to develop until the next season when they both moved in Meredith's house. When Catherine came to SG to do the penile transplant, it didn't seem like Jackson was aware that April and his Mom knew one another as well as they did. For that reason, I kind of do think Catherine came before Jackson. 

As for their relationship in S13 - I think as protective as Catherine is of Jackson, April is going to be just as protective of her baby. That isn't going to make for a very harmonious relationship. I certainly don't think April would keep her from seeing the baby, but I think Catherine will definitely know her place. As always, I suspect Jackson to put her there more than April as that is how he has always been. No matter what he always comes back around to being protective of her. No matter how mad he got this season, he always circled back around to that.

Jackson is the wildcard for me going into this season. My interpretation is that April absolutely believes that he no longer loves her. I think she finally came to terms with that and I think she believes all there is left between them is a co-parenting relationship. I felt like after fighting him for the first part of the season, by the end of the episode where she signed the divorce papers that she finally gave up and let him go. After all the episodes of fighting we had to endure, by the very end of the season, I really believe that April had completely resigned herself to them sharing a child and nothing more and was at peace with it. I honestly do not believe she feels like he has any romantic feelings left for her at all. On the other hand, I absolutely think he is still in love with her. Only someone you love can make you THAT angry. Jackson is a pretty even tempered guy......except when it comes to April. She gets a reaction, be it good or bad, out of him that no one else can. I think that is because despite trying hard not to love her any longer, he still does. I would have said, prior to the finale, that he would have never admitted that to himself so it didn't matter anyway. I think having to listen on the phone while Ben (whose last rogue surgery resulted in a Mother & Baby dying and that was in a hospital) cut her open sans anesthesia and then seeing the shape she was in when she arrived to the hospital hit him pretty hard. 

I know some folks like to take him telling Ben not to listen to April when she told him to save the baby over her if it came down to that as some big declaration of love from him. Jackson isn't heartless. I never expected him to agree with that no matter how he felt. She is the Mother of his child, clearly he doesn't want her to die. For me it was more what he didn't say. Who knows, I could be totally wrong. He may cart the baby home from the hospital and leave her there to recover. As I said in a previous post, I still don't think that is the end of the trauma surrounding the birth. I could absolutely see April having complications, be it emotional or physical, in the aftermath. I could also see Jackson making her his responsibility. Complete speculation, but I was shocked that Shonda didn't have her die, so I am just waiting for the other shoe to drop, LOL.

Baby name? No clue. I honestly have not the slightest idea what they will name her. Knowing April and Jackson, they won't agree on that either. ;-)

[BaseOps]

On June 26, 2016 at 1:42 AM, Marni said:

That's an interesting idea. I do have some hesitations about that structure because for me personally I'm not interested in all the characters anymore, like in the early seasons. Now days there are many weak characters I don't care about so if most or all of the characters I was invested in were in the background for that long a stretch of time I think I'd lose interest, especially with the two hiatuses being so long. But in general I do think more thorough planning of the overall season would improve the show a great deal, the Riggs/Owen stuff is proof of that. We know from interviews they were making it up on the fly, they just kept dragging it out with no end goal in mind and there ended up being zero payoff, it just kind of fizzled out. I found it so tiresome to watch and looking back now all the time they spent on it seems rather pointless.

The reason I think I'd like that structure better overall is because at least the characters who I like that get little / no story now would get some focus. As it stands, characters I'm not interested in are getting focus all year. I'd like to see that contained to smaller arcs, or at least have them moved aside a bit so that Alex / Jo / Bailey, etc. can get some spotlight. And like you said, so much of storytelling now seems aimless and just made up as it goes along. It'd be nice to see some forward-thinking that results in actual payoff. 

[Scatterbrained]

Thanks for the likes doram and BlindMaryIngalls.  Thanks for the like and response apn85.

i believe Shonda promised 13 would be a lighter, happier season.  I hope so!  

I've noticed Jackson often talk about how Mark Sloan was like a father to him, and it seems like the loss is still profound.  I miss the Mark Sloan character too.  Another "light" one who could make me laugh.  I've never cared much for the heavy stuff.  I should probably go watch sitcoms.

Catherine and April - yeah, I imagine that she visited Mercy West and gave a speech or demonstration and the ever-eager April excitedly introduced herself to Catherine the Great and their relationship/mentorship followed from there.

i agree that April seems resigned.  Especially with the scene in the bar where they were hashing out their coparenting play.  He seemed happy and hopeful.  She seemed quiet and somewhat sad.  I really hope they don't drop that other shoe....  

[apn85]

4 hours ago, Scatterbrained said:

Thanks for the likes doram and BlindMaryIngalls.  Thanks for the like and response apn85.

i believe Shonda promised 13 would be a lighter, happier season.  I hope so!  

I've noticed Jackson often talk about how Mark Sloan was like a father to him, and it seems like the loss is still profound.  I miss the Mark Sloan character too.  Another "light" one who could make me laugh.  I've never cared much for the heavy stuff.  I should probably go watch sitcoms.

Catherine and April - yeah, I imagine that she visited Mercy West and gave a speech or demonstration and the ever-eager April excitedly introduced herself to Catherine the Great and their relationship/mentorship followed from there.

i agree that April seems resigned.  Especially with the scene in the bar where they were hashing out their coparenting play.  He seemed happy and hopeful.  She seemed quiet and somewhat sad.  I really hope they don't drop that other shoe....  

Shonda promised 12 would be lighter too and well.... I am holding out hope that she really means it this time!

Yes, the bar scene was a good example of what I was meaning about her resignation to their situation. I saw it before, but that scene it was very apparent. She clearly doesn't want to split time where her child is concerned, so her looking forlorn wasn't a shock to me. However, I think she's just been pushed so far that way that it would take a lot to make her believe he still had feelings for her. Which may be the angle they take this season, or maybe not. The goal may be to get them to back to being friends and co-parents and eventually have them both move on and be genuinely happy for one another. I guess we shall see.  

[candall]

Oh m-a-a-a-n, I swore I wasn't going to get hooked on MAGIC again and then five minutes during channel surfing led me right back to scoring a daily multi-hour fix from Lifetime.

 

But good grief, this show was rich with excellence.  It's too bad that one whole era is dismissed as "Denny's ghost" because Bailey, in particular, was at the top of her game.  I'd forgotten she was the pivotal character--keeping both subordinates and superiors in line, being hard when necessary, soft when appropriate, involved in peds surgery, everyone's touchstone.  Go, Bailey.

 

With the benefit of hindsight, the introduction of the Mercy West crew is interesting.  I know two of the people who seem rather significant are really just cannon fodder.  Not surprising Jackson's still around today, but no one would have predicted flaky Kepner would have such longevity.

I remembered Christina had a careless mean streak, but I'm shocked at how often she flips out.  Lexie had some chops, right from the beginning--still miss her.  George and Izzie staring at each other from either side of the elevator door is still my favorite scene from the whole series.

I fast-forward the Christina-Owen relationship parts.  She's gone and he was a mess then, still a mess today--why bother?

[apn85]

24 minutes ago, doram said:

Lexie's role/place irritated me then and irritated me now. I didn't understand why she was always hanging around Meredith's group. Why didn't the girl have her own friends?

Very true. Guess I never really thought about it. I almost forget she never became an Attending just because she was always around them. I mean it was sad when she died, but I was never super invested in her while she was around either. I am drawing a complete blank here, but who was in Lexie's class? Did we really know many residents from her group? Seems like a lifetime ago, lol. 

1 hour ago, candall said:

With the benefit of hindsight, the introduction of the Mercy West crew is interesting.  I know two of the people who seem rather significant are really just cannon fodder.  Not surprising Jackson's still around today, but no one would have predicted flaky Kepner would have such longevity.

I know, right?! I promise you when the merger happened I never dreamed April would stick around for any length of time. Or that her specialty would end up being Trauma surgery. Though when I think about it, if memory serves that is the direction George was going had he lived/stayed around, and he was always the underdog for me out of the original five. 

[candall]

38 minutes ago, doram said:

Lexie's role/place irritated me then and irritated me now. I didn't understand why she was always hanging around Meredith's group. Why didn't the girl have her own friends?

Originally, I thought she fluttered around and was annoying, too.  For some reason, this time I'm noticing how often she steps up--with Mark, with the secret surgical group, with Meredith and the liver transplant, with inappropriate next-door Torres, whenever anyone needs someone dependable to do something. 

The only time she fell short was getting overwhelmed by the severe burn victim--and she even powered back from that.

[Chas411]

Agreed on first watch I hated her but on rewatch I quite liked her and find Maggie a pretty crappy replacement to her.

the only time I hated her was wkend she picked on April. It just seemed like a bitchy mean girls type move for her.

[Eolivet]

I found clips of what appears to be the entire Cristina and Owen relationship, starting at season 5, and have been sucked down the rabbit hole of nostalgia for the last two days. In what appears to be a minority opinion, I loved their relationship -- at first. I also maintain that the first season they were together (season 5), they were one of the all-time great couples. Just for that season. I love to see Cristina just...accidentally fall for him. Sandra Oh did such incredible work in that season, and the writing was actually decent for both of them. Her "You pulled out my icicle! And you made me love you!" speech in the S5 finale was amazing.

It bugs me to no end that -- even though it was one of the most interesting and believable reasons for the breakup of a marriage -- they suddenly gave Owen baby rabies. Like, he had Cristina Yang -- what more did he need in life?! I don't want to say the writers squandered their potential, but more like...they had this dynamic, interesting couple -- where the hotshot army doc falls head over heels for the brilliant, beautiful cardio goddess who's even more of a badass than he is -- and tried to make them ordinary. By making them get married and consider having kids, it's like they set them up to fail. And that's too bad, because had they kept them messy and conflict-ridden, but utterly devoted to each other, I think they might've ultimately stayed together.

I feel like there's an alternate universe somewhere, where after season 5, Cristina and Owen left Seattle Grace Mercy Death, and became surgeons together in the wilderness -- just living on adrenaline and the love of surgery and each other. I could've seen Cristina chasing that high much more than April freaking Kepner.

[upperco]

I too appreciated the Owen/Cristina dynamic in the beginning -- until all that was unique and engrossing about them became overwrought and unrealistic as a function of the perpetual destruction of Owen's character, beginning in Season Six.

First he was given wishy-washy unclear motivations in the Teddy arc, then he was made to coerce Cristina into marriage when she was suffering from PTSD, then he was forced to be the conflict in Cristina's unplanned pregnancy (and abortion) storyline. By the time they had him cheat on Cristina, the Owen of Season Five had already been destroyed -- manipulated into positions in which he didn't belong (and in which NO character would belong). 

The character has never recovered because the writers are still doing damage control for how insufferable they contrived him to be in the first half of his tenure. Caring for kids, mentoring April, etc. Who gives a s*** anymore? Too much bad writing under that metaphorical bridge. They're afraid to make him truly flawed because they don't know how to do so organically, so they give him superficial conflicts and throw him functional narrative-driven dialogue. Now he's just there -- for the weekly stories, for Amelia's arc, and for McKidd's now regular direction. 

Edited July 3, 2016 by upperco

[Eolivet]

I'm with you on the Teddy thing, upperco, though I'm not sure I would use the word "coerce" for how Owen got Cristina to marry him. "Manipulate with good, but selfish intentions" maybe. It's interesting, because that was the second (by my count) marriage on this show because someone was feeling upset and powerless about a situation (George with his dad, and Callie being the first). Yet while George and Callie's marriage always struck me as a guy who was way in over his head, and looking for any port in the storm, I feel like Owen really should've known better having experienced PTSD himself. I have no doubt he loved and wanted to marry Cristina, but I do think he took advantage of the timing in a way he really shouldn't have.

(Come to think of it, Owen and Amelia's marriage seems to be built on a similar reaction to a bad situation -- a response to Meredith telling Amelia to get her own life.)

I do miss season 5 Owen Hunt, the adult who entered the hospital with a decidedly different point of view (and worldview) from the incestuous high school clique of surgeons. I'm fairly certain that season 12 Owen Hunt wouldn't (and couldn't) have stapled up his own leg wound without anesthetic.

[kingshearte]

3 hours ago, Eolivet said:

I found clips of what appears to be the entire Cristina and Owen relationship, starting at season 5, and have been sucked down the rabbit hole of nostalgia for the last two days. In what appears to be a minority opinion, I loved their relationship -- at first. I also maintain that the first season they were together (season 5), they were one of the all-time great couples. Just for that season. I love to see Cristina just...accidentally fall for him. Sandra Oh did such incredible work in that season, and the writing was actually decent for both of them. Her "You pulled out my icicle! And you made me love you!" speech in the S5 finale was amazing.

It bugs me to no end that -- even though it was one of the most interesting and believable reasons for the breakup of a marriage -- they suddenly gave Owen baby rabies. Like, he had Cristina Yang -- what more did he need in life?! I don't want to say the writers squandered their potential, but more like...they had this dynamic, interesting couple -- where the hotshot army doc falls head over heels for the brilliant, beautiful cardio goddess who's even more of a badass than he is -- and tried to make them ordinary. By making them get married and consider having kids, it's like they set them up to fail. And that's too bad, because had they kept them messy and conflict-ridden, but utterly devoted to each other, I think they might've ultimately stayed together.

I feel like there's an alternate universe somewhere, where after season 5, Cristina and Owen left Seattle Grace Mercy Death, and became surgeons together in the wilderness -- just living on adrenaline and the love of surgery and each other. I could've seen Cristina chasing that high much more than April freaking Kepner.

I totally agree with all of this. The beginning of their relationship was so beautiful and heartbreaking to watch, and in the beginning, he seemed to just get her and her intensity. He seemed like someone who would never want her to step back and take a backseat to his career so she could raise his babies. And then... that's exactly what he became, and worse than Burke ever was about it. The basic romance trope that happily ever after always has to mean marriage and babies is just so stupid, and it would have been amazing to let these two have their own version of happily ever after that didn't conform to the traditional ideas of what that means. But no, they had to go and assassinate his character to the point where he's basically not even recognizable anymore, dragging the amazing relationship down with him. It sucks.

[represent]

Quote

Like, he had Cristina Yang -- what more did he need in life?! 

The problem was Shonda never saw Cristina this way.  I'd like to think that she thought it was that no man was awesome enough nor worthy enough for her, but I know better. That was NOT it at all. Shonda only identifies on a personal level with the female characters who wanted to have babies and wear pink prom dresses, it's that simple for me. This bullshit about how all you need is your work is just that. Human beings are put here to yes work, but we are also put here to mate. This show was first and foremost about that mating game. The show was about the relationships with the medical thrown in. So trying to argue the case which I believe she did in an article or two that Cristina was fine with her scalpel was bullshit. You can't play that on this show, because if you're not hooked, you're not getting any airtime. Shonda's full of it. Cristina was never written or rather, the actress SO, never played Cristina as wanting to be alone without a mate. She played her as someone who didn't even mind marriage. She could actually commit to a marriage/relationship other than with Meredith Grey no matter how hard Shonda tried to slip that "you're my only person" bullshit in there. What she didn't want to have to do was to give up her career and the track it was on, and she could not physically, psychologically stay in a job where she wasn't constantly learning because she was brilliant. Someone like her would literally wilt away without constant new and fascinating things to learn.

But no, Shonda thought it an empowering idea to make the character eat shit and suffer for it constantly. Fine, a decade is along time  and you need drama, so you need to keep writing to character flaws that keep coming up and causing these characters problems in the personal as well as professional lives.  But in the end, after a decade, at least send her off with the man who she was finally enough for.  Instead,  in the end, Shonda decides to humiliate her with fucking Burke. I don't know which man was worse personally. Actually it was Burke, he just had a "my shit don't stink" air about him that Owen does not have. Owen is a fucking brat, who throws tantrums and is selfish. But all these characters including Cristina are selfish. Burke, he needed his face punched in with that smugness of his. He was smug and unlike Cristina, he was not funny. But I've already said that I found nothing endearing about her getting a great opportunity from Preston Burke. The man, no make that Shonda, had the nerve to have him chastise her for not wanting children AGAIN, when he rubbed it her face in a condescending tone as usual, that he found a woman who had a career but also wanted to be a mommy. I wanted to throw something at my tv..That was just a nasty, bitchy move by Shonda period. That wasn't called for! Shonda did not have to write those words for him to say, seriously?  Plus, Cristina won that award, it was admitted by the foundation that she won, but politics would not allow them to officially give it to her. So, they had to award it to the second place candidate. Therefore, Cristina's name was out there, the foundation even offered to give her money to continue her research at the hospital. So there is no way that Shonda could not have written an opportunity for her without the help of Burke, her name was out there in the field. She was young with great promise and her name was finally out there.

Edited July 3, 2016 by represent

[represent]

2 hours ago, doram said:

I didn't get this impression at all. If anything, I felt that Burke went over board with the "I loved you (Cristiana) so much that you had all the power in the relationship" spiel. I was happy to see that Burke got his own version of a happy-ending because while I never doubted that he and Cristiana loved each other, it was clear from early on in their relationship that they wanted different things. 

Yeah, it all depends on your perception.

For me, I didn't care about Burke as an individual character, so once he left, didn't matter to me.  To me he was talking out of both sides of his mouth, Shonda likes to have it both ways. If you truly respect Cristina as a former student and fellow surgeon then fine offer her the damn opportunity, but don't throw in her face shit about your wife and her desire to use her uterus. Who gives a shit?  Apparently, Shonda. As a matter a fact, Burke and Cristina never even had the children discussion, it never got the chance to specifically come up during their relationship, so that line from him was ridiculous. It just wasn't necessary to get into that dialogue at all from my point of view.  I get she wanted to throw a bone maybe to Burke fans first but she didn't have to write in shame dialogue toward Cristina. Just I'm married, with kids and Cristina saying she was happy for him was enough. The line about his wife being a surgeon who wanted to have children was all I heard once it said, and I was done. I was like WTF?  Bringing up a wife who wanted to have children would make sense in an Owen/Cristina scene which I hope to NEVER fucking see, EVER, LOL.  NEVER, EVER......................

I was and always have been a Cristina fan first so nothing short of making sure that in the end she had love that was about being happy with just being with her would have sufficed.  Based on my post, I didn't care for Burke all that much, so I certainly never needed to see him again, and even more, I didn't think he needed to have anything to do with Cristina's next career move. She had enough recognition that better writers could have come up with something less insulting.. 

Edited July 3, 2016 by represent

[represent]

Quote

Well Cristina was the one who accused him of hiring her so that they could rekindle their relationship so that was Burke's response. 

Yeah,I remember this very well and it plays into how I said the scene should have gone. Just wish him well instead of making it into what Cristina was lacking. Had he called her up like a grown up and offered her the job, instead of leading her there under false pretense, then Cristina would not have lead with the impression that he was playing power games.  Send her a freaking letter, text if you think she won't take the call. But don't set things up to look like you're playing games. And of course she would see it this way, the last time she saw him he left her at the altar without a note afterword, just his annoying, uppity ass mama. 

Do it all on the up and up, and if she doesn't want to accept then it's' her choice. But don't get her down there after their history, in the manner in which he did. It just sets it up for her to side eye his intentions. But again, I've never really agreed with any direction that Shonda has taken with most if not all of these characters. She, her staff, just bad writers IMO, it's always been the actors who play these characters, the chemistry way back when between them, their talent to just stretch as much as they can out of the skimpy writing. The idea for many of the characters is good at the start, the follow through is another story. Vision? I don't see vision. I haven't seen much steady vision since Denny came on board in season two. That's when the vision started to go downhill IMO. I was like WTH? 

We agree,  it is about perception. 

I like that she created Cristina, I like that she made her unapologetic and not in need of babies, after that, not so much.  Because in the end, my perception is that she continually punished her in her personal life for not  wanting babies, in a way that she never punished any other character. 

Again, there was absolutely no reason for Burke to bring up his wife and her uterus and saying that Cristina was questioning his motives is no excuse. Shonda chose to write it that way and that dialogue had nothing to do with her "vision" of Cristina being a unapologetic, brilliant female surgeon. The only place it fits in IMO, is to remind haters that Cristina is lacking. Why have it said? Why set up what could have been a decent scene with that line?  It actually goes against the vision, but maybe that wasn't the vision.  Why wouldn't she question his motives when Shonda chose to have Burke get her to Switzerland under false pretense? Why wouldn't she question his motives when she felt that she in part did a lot of the work that helped him get his first Avery Award yet there was no credit given to her? I remember that shit in season four, that's what she was pissed about when she had that annoying monologue during the employee fill out this form listing all the people you've had sexual relationships episode. Why would she think he would think much of her skills and give her a job opportunity?  She actually thought based on that scene that he did not get how driven she was, that she wanted to be the world class surgeon not his freaking employee. That told me right there that in her mind she never expected that he thought her brilliant, nor skillful enough to offer her a job, much less the institute.  I don't think she ever thought that he thought much of her skill, because had he, he would have stopped short of getting into a romantic relationship with her, and tried to teach her period. Or he knew she had skill but who cares, she's a woman and no matter what she does, she'll want to be married and have some kids.  He, Bailey they all knew damn well who those interns were, they knew their stats, yet he chose to make George his one and only.  He never had any intentions IMO to notice her skills and take her under his wing minus the sexual relationship.

Edited July 4, 2016 by represent

[apn85]

I see your point for sure, represent. I, too, always felt like it was supposed to be a "taboo" thing that Cristina didn't want children. She was even compared to Ellis in that episode in the conversation between Meredith and Owen when she was having the abortion. And by compared I felt like in a negative way. Shonda definitely has a desire for the female characters to have their career and children. Perhaps because she is a career woman herself, I have no idea. When I think about the show going into Season 13 most all of the Attending Physicians, at least, have or had children at some point save for Maggie. I count Amelia cause she technically did have that whole baby SL on PP. It just seems to be a thing for Shonda, you're right. For me, that was never Cristina's character and I thought it did a disservice to her character and also viewers that do choose to focus on their career rather than have children. There is nothing wrong with that at all and I don't really like how it was handled with Cristina as a "problem" rather than a decision made by an intelligent, driven woman that knew what she wanted. 

I completely agree on Burke. I could not stand him. Was not sad to see him go. I just never warmed up to his character and I did not like him with Cristina. I didn't really understand why he had to be involved in her departure, but I know Shonda was very fond of IW so perhaps that is why she brought him back to give him a proper send off. Who knows! I can see how you would find that line offensive, especially if you feel like her character was a bit shunned for being different. No real reason for him to bring up the fact that his wife was a surgeon AND a Mom other that to make a jab toward her about how happy he is and how his life turned out great despite not having her in it. I know we all see this different ways, but that is how I felt. Then again, I never liked Burke so I am always going to see the negative when it comes to him, lol. 

[BabyBBQKendall]

I liked Cristina's exit overall, but something rubbed the wrong way about Burke having the "perfect" surgeon wife who had also made sacrifices in her career to have children. There are enough parents on the show that Cristina's choice didn't need to be shaded that way.

[candall]

NOOOOOOO!!!!

I was all snuggled in for the Lifetime's Independence Day Marathon, but we had terrible thunderstorms all day, so the satellite feed kept stuttering and skipping segments and NOW I find out, the big Season Six two-parter hospital shootout DID NOT RECORD! 

All I got--superimposed right in the middle of the 700-pound man episode--was Gary's disembodied voice saying:  "I was going to shoot you and then myself, but I only have one bullet left."

Okay, people, I can't be expected to endure all the aftermath of wounded psyches, Teddy torturing Christina over doomed insurance husband, Calzona "coping" with that ever-so-brief stint in Africa and who knows what other nutfuckery--coasting all the way to the plane crash--without the rocket booster fuel from the hospital shootout.

 

(No streaming here, either. Blerg.)

[Eolivet]

It's funny you mention the season 6 finale, candall -- because I was thinking about the joke about how Meredith always has it the worst off of everyone. But after watching the past clips, I think I'd almost rather be Meredith than Cristina. Meredith had bad things happen to her, while Cristina had people expect things from her while bad things were happening to her. Operating with a gun to her head in the season 6 finale was horrible, but then she stayed awake while everyone was injured during the plane crash (and didn't she also help with Derek then, too?) and operating on Henry without knowing it. Watching Grey's disaster arc clips for a few seasons there, it was always "Cristina! Save my person! Help, Cristina!" She was never allowed to just be in a bad situation -- she always had to be there for everyone else. In a way, I'm amazed she didn't leave Seattle Grace Mercy Death sooner.

My perception of how Cristina was written differs slightly -- I never got the feeling Shonda or the writing was judging Cristina for not wanting children. I actually don't see how one could come away from the abortion storyline and not sympathize with her -- I found the writing there to be extremely sympathetic to her (and thus, almost groundbreaking in that sense). I mean, were we really supposed to sit in judgment every time Owen threw that back in her face?

I actually wondered if it was the opposite -- and if a similar thing happened to Cristina that happened to (of all people) Barney Stinson on How I Met Your Mother. You have a character who has made a name for his or herself being a certain way and suddenly, the character is softened with romance, and everyone misses the "old" character. My personal opinion is that Cristina was first and foremost a foil for Meredith. So, when Meredith had a happy marriage and kids, Cristina couldn't have those things or be successful at them, because then she wouldn't contrast to Meredith anymore. Cristina couldn't be "nice Ellis Grey" if she was content in her personal life.

I feel like we were supposed to feel like the essence of Cristina disappeared with marriage -- and if Sandra Oh was a lesser actress, I think that's what would've happened. But I don't think it did. Cristina's speech about  "If I have a kid, I'm going to love it -- I'm not a monster" was so poignant, and Oh's portrayal was so nuanced, that I never felt the character lost the core of who she was. I actually think you can see the writing fighting against how good her acting was. In my mind, the only people uncomfortable with the evolution of "happily married and childless" Cristina Yang were the writers.

[Catznip]

1 hour ago, candall said:

NOOOOOOO!!!!

I was all snuggled in for the Lifetime's Independence Day Marathon, but we had terrible thunderstorms all day, so the satellite feed kept stuttering and skipping segments and NOW I find out, the big Season Six two-parter hospital shootout DID NOT RECORD! 

All I got--superimposed right in the middle of the 700-pound man episode--was Gary's disembodied voice saying:  "I was going to shoot you and then myself, but I only have one bullet left."

Okay, people, I can't be expected to endure all the aftermath of wounded psyches, Teddy torturing Christina over doomed insurance husband, Calzona "coping" with that ever-so-brief stint in Africa and who knows what other nutfuckery--coasting all the way to the plane crash--without the rocket booster fuel from the hospital shootout.

 

(No streaming here, either. Blerg.)

S6 2-parter was one of the best episodes since season 2. I saw some of Greys finest acting chops. The scenes with Bailey trying to save the doctors life was extraordinary acting from the actress. I felt emotionally charged from these 2 episodes. 

[chitowngirl]

"What I Am" (season 3 episode 4) is on Lifetime now. I love morphined Meredith. When she looks at Bailey and tells her she's pretty is classic. What really sells it is the wrinkled nose.

[Pinecone]

On July 3, 2016 at 11:09 AM, represent said:

The problem was Shonda never saw Cristina this way.  I'd like to think that she thought it was that no man was awesome enough nor worthy enough for her, but I know better. That was NOT it at all. Shonda only identifies on a personal level with the female characters who wanted to have babies and wear pink prom dresses, it's that simple for me. This bullshit about how all you need is your work is just that. Human beings are put here to yes work, but we are also put here to mate. This show was first and foremost about that mating game. The show was about the relationships with the medical thrown in. So trying to argue the case which I believe she did in an article or two that Cristina was fine with her scalpel was bullshit. You can't play that on this show, because if you're not hooked, you're not getting any airtime. Shonda's full of it. Cristina was never written or rather, the actress SO, never played Cristina as wanting to be alone without a mate. She played her as someone who didn't even mind marriage. She could actually commit to a marriage/relationship other than with Meredith Grey no matter how hard Shonda tried to slip that "you're my only person" bullshit in there. What she didn't want to have to do was to give up her career and the track it was on, and she could not physically, psychologically stay in a job where she wasn't constantly learning because she was brilliant. Someone like her would literally wilt away without constant new and fascinating things to learn.

But no, Shonda thought it an empowering idea to make the character eat shit and suffer for it constantly. Fine, a decade is along time  and you need drama, so you need to keep writing to character flaws that keep coming up and causing these characters problems in the personal as well as professional lives. 

Shonda claims she loves Cristina and that Cristina is the character closest to her heart, the one she wants to be, blah blah, in her book The Year of Yes. As a long term viewer, I don't believe it. What was the point of those seasons where Teddy and Owen were whipping her around and grating her down professionally and personally? And Owen is the worst--he claims to be interested in having kids but he never actually makes it a priority. It's so entitled. The only  mentor she truly had was the old doctor at Mayo who appreciated her for who she was. 

[candall]

I love the "Meredith Drowns" story.  The little girl pointing. (At the horizon, which I didn't find very helpful.)  Derek carrying blue-grey dead Meredith up the boat ramp in his arms.  Doggie Doc jumping up on the table.  "You're not dead until you're warm and dead!"  Ellis finally giving Meredith love and validation.  (That last one makes me cry, just typing it out.)

But watching it now, I notice the context, as voice-overed by Meredith, is "medical miracles."  Hmm, really?  That's strange because my takeaway has always been:  if every hospital patient were Meredith Grey, the mortality rate would go way down.

 

In fact, LOL, every time someone says, "Time of death, call it" on this show, I always think:  But what if that were MEREDITH?!?

[izabella]

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I was hoping Meredith would be dead-dead after drowning.  It may be years and years ago now, but I still remember watching and being so happy she was dead and then wishing and hoping they wouldn't be able to revive her.  She's been such a miserable bitch this whole show!

[RealityCowgirl]

3 hours ago, izabella said:

This might be an unpopular opinion, but I was hoping Meredith would be dead-dead after drowning.  It may be years and years ago now, but I still remember watching and being so happy she was dead and then wishing and hoping they wouldn't be able to revive her.  She's been such a miserable bitch this whole show!

Heh. I've been known to hold that opinion on more than one occasion. ;)

Watching today's replay of the drowning episode. It's generally one of my favorites, but I'm getting the sense that it may be time to take it off the DVR list for awhile. Today's big, overriding sentiment: damn. Ava/Rebecca's back.

And we just got rid of Denny. Well, for now...

[apn85]

On 8/23/2016 at 6:04 PM, RealityCowgirl said:

Watching today's replay of the drowning episode. It's generally one of my favorites, but I'm getting the sense that it may be time to take it off the DVR list for awhile. Today's big, overriding sentiment: damn. Ava/Rebecca's back.

Oh my word I HATED Ava/Rebecca!!!!! HATED!!!!!! She may go down as one of my most hated characters in the history of the show. I forgot about her! 

[candall]

18 hours ago, apn85 said:

Oh my word I HATED Ava/Rebecca!!!!! HATED!!!!!! She may go down as one of my most hated characters in the history of the show. I forgot about her! 

Now that Lifetime is showing four to TEN hours per day, I find it very easy to just bzzzzz . . . FF all of Izzie and Denny flirting their way to true love, Alex's investment in various shades of Ava angst, live pig surgery, etc.  LOL, it feels very satisfying to do that!  "Nope.  Pass.  Pass.  Pass."

 

Even though this has to be my third go-around, at least, for large chunks of this show, I'm still surprised at how my reaction changes.  This time I'm totally impatient with Izzie.  She can barely open her mouth without blabbing someone's secrets or being deliberately rude or thoughtlessly self-centered.  You could put together a five minute montage of her tossing out a thousand insincere versions of:  "What?  Oh.  Sorrr-y." 

Edited August 31, 2016 by candall

[kingshearte]

1 hour ago, candall said:

Even though this has to be my third go-around, at least, for large chunks of this show, I'm still surprised at how my reaction changes.  This time I'm totally impatient with Izzie.  She can barely open her mouth without blabbing someone's secrets or being deliberately rude or thoughtlessly self-centered.  You could put together a five minute montage of her tossing out a thousand insincere versions of:  "What?  Oh.  Sorrr-y." 

I never understood the Izzie love, because that's been my reaction to her from my very first watch. Almost from Day 1, I've found her to be completely and utterly insufferable.

[OtterMommy]

9 minutes ago, kingshearte said:

I never understood the Izzie love, because that's been my reaction to her from my very first watch. Almost from Day 1, I've found her to be completely and utterly insufferable.

There was Izzie love?  Really?

I think what did it for me was an episode, I think it was the second one, where she tries to help the undocumented woman or her daughter or something.  There is nothing wrong with that (well, other than stealing supplies from the hospital and practicing rogue medicine in the parking lot), but there was one scene where she brings out Cristina to talk to the woman, who is Chinese, and Cristina's response is something like, "Why do you think I can talk to her?  I'm Korean!" and, for some reason, that completely turned me off Izzie for the rest of her duration on the show....

Edited August 31, 2016 by OtterMommy

[represent]

Quote

 

There was Izzie love?  Really?

I think what did it for me was an episode, I think it was the second one, where she tries to help the undocumented woman or her daughter or something.  There is nothing wrong with that (well, other than stealing supplies from the hospital and practicing rogue medicine in the parking lot), but there was one scene where she brings out Cristina to talk to the woman, who is Chinese, and Cristina's response is something like, "Why do you think I can talk to her?  I'm Korean!" and, for some reason, that completely turned me off Izzie for the rest of her duration on the show....

 

 

I was turned off by George, Meredith and Izzie, hated Izzie. I was usually turned off if Shonda had any of these characters given sympathy or care for especially by  Bailey and the Chief, when it was never given to Yang.  That would cause me to turn on them even more than any of their character flaws, I guess you call that jealousy on behalf of my favorite character. Izzie annoyed the shit out of me from day one with her smiles and hugs personality but the shit really hit the fan when Bailey went and coddled her to try to get her back in the program, because of her "big love" with Deny, yet wanted Cristina crucified for Tremorgate. She treated Cristina as if she too were not an intern, as if she had the last word over a fucking a attending, that would Burke. She didn't want to give her a second chance but didn't hesitate to fight for Izzie.  Fucking bitch that Bailey, I can't stand her. 

I was ever so glad when Cristina told her ass off when she used Cristina's race to get her to take the Nazi patient because she didn't want to deal with him, bitch.  LOL, don't mess with Cristina, do not treat her like she doesn't need someone in her corner like the rest do, my blood boiled. I started loathing Bailey after all of this shit, truly loathing her. I never felt that the Chief nor Bailey showed any kind of we have to look out for this intern as well towards Cristina. Alex, I could forgive anyone looking out for him, but the rest got way to much coddling for my taste, forgiveness, and Izzie was at the top of the list, pissed me off. But once again, showed Shonda's deep seeded hate for Cristina, just another example.

Speaking of the Nazi term, I remember when Shonda had Burke's mother chastise Cristina for calling Bailey the Nazi, Why? Why the fuck did Cristina get chastised when they had been calling Bailey that term since before MAGIC showed up in the program?  Because it was once again, let's shit on incompetent relationship and overall human being Cristina again.  That spiteful bitch Shonda, she could never hide her bias against Cristina it was always very clear in the writing.  I would one day like to know who exactly Cristina represents in Shonda's background because it isn't anything good contrary to what she's said.

Edited August 31, 2016 by represent

[Chas411]

My Izzie hatred came sometime around season two. Derek/Addison's married friends came to visit and the wife announced she was having a double mastectomy as she had tested positive for the beroca gene and had already lost her mother and sister to cancer. Izzie had an attitude about the whole thing and when she and the woman spoke the woman told her she knew Izzie didn't agree with what she was doing but she saw it as being left with two choices - don't have the mastectomy and die like her mother and sister or have the surgery and live a long life. Izzie then gave her a third option - don't get the operation and then fight like hell if she got cancer.

I hated her after that. She just came off as obnoxious and clueless.

[candall]

Maybe it's just watching so many episodes in a row that forms my new opinion.  In concentrated doses, Izzie suddenly seems just like any other beautiful blonde who gets a lot of breaks in life, is used to getting a pass on rude behavior and isn't surprised when people are constantly falling in love with her. 

I mean, she repeatedly sneers about her "best friend's" new wife--to him and everyone else--"Callie's a bridesmaid?"--and is still puzzled why he wouldn't prefer to hang out with her instead.  That's exactly the sort of attitude which would come from someone who's used to being a highly sought-after prize.  All that being small and mean, and she's utterly befuddled when George withdraws. 

But then life's ship rights its course and George comes to her after all.  I was thinking, "Just keep your mouth shut!" but no way.  It was funny to see her shock when Alex, the "bad boy" they all look down on, was disgusted.

Every now and then the show would try to balance the character by reminding us about Izzie's disadvantaged beginnings--the trailer park, the teen pregnancy, the ditzy distant mother.  (The "lingerie model" phase was quickly forgotten.)  But all that background angst they gave her doesn't have any impact on her prom queen mean girl behavior, except that she knows how to throw a punch.

Like the poster above who wonders if Yang represents a figure from Shonda's life, it's interesting to consider the "Izzies" she might have known.

*********

In real life, Katherine Heigl is very involved with animal rescue--in the sense of personal involvement, not just lending her celebrity name and writing a check.  She (and her group) rescue dogs no one wants from kill-shelters, she arranges transports, campaigns for spay & neuter awareness, protests legislative protection for cruel farm animal treatment . . . which is ALL stuff I do, too.  When I checked her Wikipedia page just now, I saw she's also an organ donor advocate, which I also feel strongly about.

Oh hell, I'd probably really like her.

Edited September 2, 2016 by candall

[apn85]

On 9/1/2016 at 1:48 PM, candall said:

 

In real life, Katherine Heigl is very involved with animal rescue--in the sense of personal involvement, not just lending her celebrity name and writing a check.  She (and her group) rescue dogs no one wants from kill-shelters, she arranges transports, campaigns for spay & neuter awareness, protests legislative protection for cruel farm animal treatment . . . which is ALL stuff I do, too.  When I checked her Wikipedia page just now, I saw she's also an organ donor advocate, which I also feel strongly about.

Oh hell, I'd probably really like her.

Ok, so this completely cracked me up! LOL! "Oh hell, I'd probably really like her!" 

[Daisy]

I am re-watching all the "best moments" of Greys... man, do i ever miss MAGIC. I had my issues with almost all of them but they so worked. and I really did like George. still never got over Shonda that she killed him. easily could have gone into the Army and poof. 

[Chas411]

I'm watching season 9 now on my rewatch and though I hated it the first time I actually love it the second time. 

I miss Lexi and Mark of course but I'm not missing them as much this time around. It felt like their time was up and all storylines had been exhausted with them. The new intern class have kind of freshened things up. 

I actually like the interns this time too .. Save for maybe Leah who I could never warm to. Stephanie and Jo are the standouts and I kind of wish they'd kept developing them instead of bringing them both to a complete standstill in subsequent seasons in favour of giving the same 3 "sisters" constant screen time. 

I had initially resented Jo and the seemingly tailor made romance with Alex but on rewatch I don't find it forced at all. I actually find it really sweet and hilarious st times. Jo is a fantastic character on her introduction - her street kid side doesn't even feel manufactured to suit  Alex - she even had some great scenes with Meredith who seemed to quite like her. It baffles me how the writers just ignored her completely after season ten and had various characters trample all over her.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, Chas411 said:

I'm watching season 9 now on my rewatch and though I hated it the first time I actually love it the second time. 

I miss Lexi and Mark of course but I'm not missing them as much this time around. It felt like their time was up and all storylines had been exhausted with them. The new intern class have kind of freshened things up. 

I actually like the interns this time too .. Save for maybe Leah who I could never warm to. Stephanie and Jo are the standouts and I kind of wish they'd kept developing them instead of bringing them both to a complete standstill in subsequent seasons in favour of giving the same 3 "sisters" constant screen time. 

I had initially resented Jo and the seemingly tailor made romance with Alex but on rewatch I don't find it forced at all. I actually find it really sweet and hilarious st times. Jo is a fantastic character on her introduction - her street kid side doesn't even feel manufactured to suit  Alex - she even had some great scenes with Meredith who seemed to quite like her. It baffles me how the writers just ignored her completely after season ten and had various characters trample all over her.

I liked the romance too. The bond over their "trashy " pasts and how they navigate professional norms could always be developed further, but in the early days the writers were giving them a good foundation for a relationship. That they both had a side that got off on violating behavior norms and scamming others-like when they got the key to the other guy's hotel room at the wedding, or their manufactured breakup argument in season 10--actually added some depth to them. 

[StaceyNotStacie]

Lifetime is showing the aftermath of the plane crash. It's amazing how many major characters they have killed off. 

When the show finally ends, they should do a Titanic-type ending where Meredith dies as an older woman surrounded by her children (and Christina). We then see a younger Meredith walk into the hospital surrounded by dead patients and former characters (George, Lexi, Mark, Ellis, etc) and is reunited with Derek aka Rose and Jack at the end of Titanic. 

[mdw]

I've been rewatching past episodes on Lifetime recently. I have a bunch that I dvr'd. I'm now in season 6 right after George has died. Seattle Grace is about to merge with Mercy West. These are some of my thoughts.

Alex had the best chemistry with Izzie. They were one of my favorite couples from early Grey's. Whatever issues Katherine Heigl had as an employee and coworker, she is a very talented actress and it's a shame that she left on such bad terms that she can't come back. Izzie was one of my favorite characters in seasons 1 and 2, although I really couldn't stand her in season 3. 

It would have been better had Izzie died from cancer and George just left for the army. It made me sad that after Alex and Izzie finally get back together and she survives cancer that she leaves Alex a few episodes later. George was very under utilized in seasons 4 and 5. He practically didn't have a storyline. He went from being one of the five central characters to being cast adrift, as the show focused more heavily on other secondary characters. Given that T.R. Knight didn't burn so many bridges and Katherine Heigl did, George could have left for the army or another hospital without a lot of fanfare and come back again later. Were Izzy to have died and George just to have changed jobs, the emotional fallout for the other characters would have been the same in terms of mourning one of their own but it wouldn't have been so depressing. The end of season 5 is when the show began to get so dark, because previously the really tragic events generally happened to patients and not to core characters.

[BaseOps]

On August 31, 2016 at 3:20 PM, represent said:

 Izzie annoyed the shit out of me from day one with her smiles and hugs personality but the shit really hit the fan when Bailey went and coddled her to try to get her back in the program, because of her "big love" with Deny, yet wanted Cristina crucified for Tremorgate. She treated Cristina as if she too were not an intern, as if she had the last word over a fucking a attending, that would Burke. She didn't want to give her a second chance but didn't hesitate to fight for Izzie.  Fucking bitch that Bailey, I can't stand her. 

 I started loathing Bailey after all of this shit, truly loathing her. I never felt that the Chief nor Bailey showed any kind of we have to look out for this intern as well towards Cristina. Alex, I could forgive anyone looking out for him, but the rest got way to much coddling for my taste, forgiveness, and Izzie was at the top of the list, pissed me off. But once again, showed Shonda's deep seeded hate for Cristina, just another example.

That spiteful bitch Shonda, she could never hide her bias against Cristina it was always very clear in the writing.  I would one day like to know who exactly Cristina represents in Shonda's background because it isn't anything good contrary to what she's said.

[shantown]

Top 3 things I miss most from early seasons:
1) Scenes at Joe's Bar
2) Everyone eating lunch together (the gurney hallway, old coma guy's room, even their regular table in the cafeteria)
3) Roommates - I liked when it seemed like everyone (Burke, Christina, Callie, Mark, Arizona, etc) lived on the same floor of that one building

I realized that once in a while something similar will pop up in the new season. Like in the most recent episode Alex, Mer, Amelia, and Maggie have lunch together and though I don't care for some of those characters, it allowed for some funny, casual interactions. I wish there was more relationship building among the characters - NOT romantic triangles, but natural friendships. That way when there is a triangle there's actually some investment to it because people are friends, know people, etc.

[windsprints]

Quote

 

Indeed, which is why the show should end. Sure, it's still getting great ratings, but why not go out with whatever semblance of "on top" that they can, rather than beat it to the ground? 

The compelling storytelling, the stories with heart, are just not there anymore. Whether or not viewers favorites are still on the show. 

 

I don't agree, I think there are plenty of compelling stories but they are choosing not to focus on those. Here's a UO sure to land me on 99% of this forum's ignore list - some of the most interesting stories aren't being told because they are trying (way too hard) to make everything about Meredith. I'm not saying this because I don't like her (but I'm sure many will take it as that). There's many examples I can think of but here's a couple just to try to explain why I think this. 

Maggie - There could always have been a story between Maggie and Meredith but instead of making it all SISTERS! they could have had Maggie/Richard be the "A" story for Maggie, at least initially. It wouldn't have felt so repetitive to Lexie, would have given Richard more to do & added some depth for Maggie instead of having her chat about her vagina to Meredith and Amelia.

Owen/Nathan - Its obvious Nathan was brought in for Meredith and that made sense because its 2 characters with similar pain in their pasts, etc. It also made sense not to shove them together right away.  But having Owen hate Nathan so Meredith had a reason to hate him too was far from a good story especially because Owen's hate for Nathan just went *poof* once the plot point was no longer needed to keep Meredith at a distance from Nathan.  Having Owen/Nathan be friends with a shared past would have given Owen a much needed friend, given us insight into Nathan and not have made Owen look like an ass for half a season.

Meredith/Alex/Jo - Having Alex be Meredith's person because Sandra Oh left. Alex and Meredith have always been friends and they could have continued that and even have become closer after Cristina left and Derek died. But, shoving Alex into being the new Cristina was a total fail IMO. It turned Meredith into a uber bitch, Alex into a gal pal and made Jo practically invisible because Alex's relationship with Jo (which they had been building for a couple of seasons) was pushed aside so Alex could basically be a sister. I don't think they will entirely ignore Jo's domestic abuse past but it won't get the prominence a storyline of that subject should (IMO, regardless of character) have.  I don't even think its about making the story about Alex's man pain. I think its about getting Alex back in the sisters house to have his personcrap/friendship with Meredith be his primary relationship until the time they choose to move forward with Meredith/Nathan. 

I know it will not change because its obvious they have chosen to move away from the ensemble (which IMO it was from S3 on) to make it mostly all Meredith/sisters since Derek died.  I will probably watch until the end of this season (unless they do something like a Merlex hookup) so I watch for whatever snippets. There's still many really good scenes that I can enjoy even if I get frustrated by the overall storytelling.  There's some great characters and potential and I guess I just keep waiting for them to utilize some of them.

[funnygirl]

I don't disagree that there are still storylines that are potentially compelling that could be told. But the point is, for whatever reason, the show isn't telling them. And that's been happening since even before Cristina left and Derek died. They glossed through a lot of things with Arizona's recovery and the post-cheating with Callie and Arizona. They could've fleshed out Jo's story long before this, and even now they are still only giving bits and pieces and then ignoring it for other menial things. And then, of course, Meredith dealing with Derek's death - they completely jumped over that. Plus Maggie building more of a relationship with Richard, etc etc etc... 

But these stories aren't being told. Instead we're being force-fed quite a bit of trite storytelling, and constantly adding on new characters is taking away from what they could be doing with the characters they've had. So what I mean is, if they aren't going to be telling these compelling stories they could be telling - and lets face it, the ship has sailed on a lot of them already - then the show should end sooner rather than later. Because all we're going to continue to get is more of the same. 

Edited October 28, 2016 by funnygirl

[windsprints]

Quote

the show should end sooner rather than later

I doubt that is going to happen. Grey's gets twice the ratings of ABC's newer dramas.  IMO, its on the air through at least season 15 which is why I'd like to see them try harder.

[Chas411]

I'm onto season 11 now and the difference from Cristina leaving is glaring. Maggie actually doesn't feel as forced this time. My other half (we're doing the rewatch because he's never seen it) loves her. He also loves Jo, Alex, Webber, hates April/Jackson and on rewatch I don't blame him.

The introduction of Amelia also causes a noticeable shift because as soon as she becomes a full time cast member there's definetly less of a place to McDreamy. I find them both very unlikeable.

Merediths shift in personality is exactly how I remember it. Infuriating. Her whole attitude to Jo shifts basically the second Cristina drives away and she decides she wants Alex to herself. The friendship with Alex is just unhealthy especially during the episode where he tries to get the boardseat. She had previously been so warm and caring towards him and always looked out for him. It's almost unbelievable how unhealthy the friendship becomes. Everything that made it great gets taken away. 

[manbearpig]

I'm still impressed that the show went there and killed off Derek, even if there were behind the scenes issues. I think the follow-up in those last few episodes of season eleven was relatively well done, but the thing that annoys me is that the time-jump really minimises the effectiveness of some of the scenes. Amelia confronting Meredith about the decision to take Derek off life support was a really well done scene, but it felt like something that should have been done the episode after Derek's death and much earlier in the show's timeline. It's still great and I would not have wanted to change the content of the argument, it just needed to be sooner. 

I haven't even seen the episodes since they aired but I remember thinking this at the time. 

[flickers]

The time jump annoyed me as a Japril fan, a year was too long for them to come back from. Jackson should have been serving those divorce papers the minute April returned.

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, flickers said:

The time jump annoyed me as a Japril fan, a year was too long for them to come back from. Jackson should have been serving those divorce papers the minute April returned.

The time jump didn't bother me until they totally botched it and it never happened in this season....

[kingshearte]

The time jump was possibly the worst thing about Derek's death. There was just so much emotional fallout from that death, as well as the other things that were going on in some of the other characters' lives who might be less devastated by that than others (like April and Jackson). There was so much that we needed to see, and we needed to see it more or less immediately after his death. I totally agree with manbearpig, for example, about the stuff between Meredith and Amelia. That was important, and intense, and absolutely belonged in this story. But it's pretty inconceivable that it had never come up before what we saw. And that's just one example of the kind of explosive emotional reactions we saw that tend to come out in the immediate aftermath of something like this. Feelings a year or so later do not look like that. I'm not saying they're gone, or that the grieving process should be over by then, but it would look different by that point. Basically, they wrote the time jump in, but then continued writing as if they hadn't, which for me, takes everyone's emotions and behaviour so far out of believable that it's just... not as compelling as it once was. Not that I've quit watching yet...