S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Eyes High]

17 minutes ago, doram said:

It wasn't. It was clearly about the fact that she chose a 'kneel or die' without any intermediary choice. 

 

No, it wasn't. Varys was gently pointing out that there was a difference between "kneel or die" and burning Randyll and Dickon alive as punishment.

Quote

Although, by the way, Tyrion's non-reaction to his wild fire killing David's son is another example of his hypocrisy.

No, it isn't. Wildfire at Blackwater was a combat tactic, not an execution method. Big difference. Also, at Blackwater Tyrion didn't have to worry about selling the Lannisters as viable rulers as much as ensuring their immediate survival; selling Dany as a legitimate queen on a righteous conquest to people understandably fearful and distrustful of fire-happy Targs when she is happy to use fire WMDs herself is a whole other kettle of fish. No hypocrisy there. Varys and Tyrion's discussion was about burning men alive as a method of execution, not about her decision to use a dragon in combat. It was the former that disturbed Varys and Tyrion to the point that they questioned her judgment, not the latter.

Also, even assuming the use of dragons in combat bothered Tyrion and made her question her judgment the way Dany's decision to burn Randyll and Dickon alive did, which the show makes clear is not the case, is that really hypocritical? Tyrion was obviously disturbed by seeing his wildfire in action, judging from his reaction in 2x09 to the wildfire explosion. That reaction may have informed his later hesitation about using fire in combat; he has seen firsthand how awful fire is when used in combat, which is why he didn't want to go that well unless absolutely necessary, as it was at Blackwater. That doesn't make him a hypocrite.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Eyes High

[domina89]

I'm still loving all the season one callbacks that continued in this episode.  Two that really struck me were:
1) Gendry's introduction to Jon, which reminded me (playful insults and all) of Ned and Robert's initial reunion in the Winterfell courtyard.
2) At the end of the episode, the long shot of the wall gate opening and Jon and his boy band heading out into the North reminded me of the very first scene of the entire series with the gate opening and the three Night Watch rangers heading out beyond the wall.  

[Constantinople]

27 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm curious what the grounds for annulment were.  I hope they're disclosed at some point.

The more I find out about Rhaegar, the less admirable  I find him

 

20 minutes ago, patchwork said:

Infertility would be my guess.

How could infertility be the grounds when Elia had already borne Rhaegar two children?

[Misplaced]

10 hours ago, Willowy said:

 

I'm not so sure Arya is falling for Littlefingers machinations. At least if she is right now, she may not be for long. She's been taught to see every side, every possibility, and she is a master spy and assassin. Littlefinger is good, but at best he's a classic manipulator and opportunist. Arya is better at this than he is. I hope she gets a chance to show Sansa just how much better at it she is.

She's better than Littlefinger when she's No One.  Right now she's Arya Stark, and stuck right back in the turmoil of Season 1 (and so forth) with her sister.  I hope she'll see through it but she's a Seethin' Cauldron Of Ire and I'm not convinced she will (and it would be so, so GRRM if she didn't).  

[Lady Iris]

Because I'm a 10 year old at heart, Sam's exclamatory "SHIT" seriously had me laughing myself to pieces. In all the years of watching GoT, I've never had such a hearty laugh.

Can Arya and Sansa not fall to slimy Littlefinger's machinations? He needs to get gone and quick.

I just keep thinking Arya must've had a lot of offscreen training we weren't privy to.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Lady Iris

[Tikichick]

How on earth was Tyrion so certain that Jamie survived, and Bronn, that he set up a meeting -- yet Dany, nor none of her other forces noticed the guy who fired the shots at the queen and struck Drogon and the knight charging directly toward the queen with spear in hand took a dip and a float upstream, alive?

[Constantinople]

Randyll Tarly said Daenerys couldn't send him to the Wall because she's not his Queen.  Isn't that how it usually works?  A battle/war is fought over disputed authority and the winners send the losers to the wall?  Granted one can always decline the option, but he should just say that instead of being so pompous (an nice PSA there Randyll!)

I presume even though Randyll Tarly wouldn't bend the knee, he wanted Dickon to so that House Tarly would continue.  But what's the point?  House Tarly would still be supporting "a foreign invader.  One with no ties to this land with an army of savages at her back"  So don't be such a drama queen Randyll and bend the knee.

Dickon's refusal seems like a plot device so that at the end of the series Sam can be Lord Tarly (presuming there's no longer a Night's Watch).

[Tikichick]

10 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I wondered what happened to the Brotherhood.

Of course while they finally made it to the North - Jon has traveled to the South and then back to the North.

Beric - You may have risen more times from the dead than Jon.  But Jon has a teleporter.

Oooh, LF is gonna be pissed when he notices his teleporter is missing.  Be a shame if it messed up his plans.

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

Ser Davos Smuggling Inc...

To be fair, Davos never said anything about smuggling Tyrion out of KL.  LOL

Jon may have a better claim to the IT than Dany based on law and custom, but dragons > law and custom.  Who's going to argue in the face of a fire breathing dragon?

A lot of posters are comparing this situation to English succession.  Here is a situation that is even crazier:

When King Cnut died in 1035 there was mass confusion about who should succeed him.  He had a son (with his wife, Emma) who was sitting on the Danish throne.  Emma had been married previously to King Aethelred (the Unready) with whom she had two sons who were living in exile in Normandy.  King Aethelred had a slew on sons with his first wife who were scattered around the country.  All of these princes had a good claim.  It was a race to see who could (physically) get to the English throne first.  At this point it didn't matter who had the better claim based on family trees, the winner was the one who seized power.  Kind of how Robert Baratheon ended up on the IT.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Haleth

[Misplaced]

10 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Not to mention Jon wasn't born until after  both Rhaegar and Aerys died. It gets pretty messy. Not sure how it works in that case.

"In utero" is treated as "in existence" for inheritance law in the UK (and most if not all states in the US).  

If the Targs are meant to be an English-type royal family, Jon is the rightful heir.  Dany is HIS heir.  I have to admit I hadn't thought about Dany's internal conflict if Jon is proven to be Rhaegar's legit child, which is a damn fine conflict to have in GoT.  I want it to go there. 

Re sons, brothers, nephews, children: remember the civil war between King Stephen (Henry I's nephew) and the Empress Matilda (Henry I's daughter, whom Henry declared to be his heir after his only son died) from 1133-53.  Well, don't "remember" it exactly because I'm fairly certain none of us was there.  In any case, the civil war was only ended when Matilda's son, the later Henry II, negotiated a peace with Stephen and then Stephen popped his clogs, leaving the throne to Henry II.  I think there's a lot of that history here.  

[WatchrTina]

On 8/14/2017 at 7:30 AM, YaddaYadda said:

Did show Jorah know Thoros? Book Jorah knows him, but I don't remember show Jorah ever mentioning him, so that came out of nowhere. 

Well show Thoros was definitely at the battle where the Greyjoy rebellion was put down -- I recall King Robert and Ser Barristan Selmy talking about it in season one -- remembering his flaming sword as he charged through a breach the wall.  Jorah is a knight and he was banished during King Robert's reign so it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Jorah might have fought in that same battle.  But I don't think it's ever been specifically said in the show.  That being said, I doubt if the unsullied (non-book-walkers) found it hard to believe that Jorah was acquainted with Thoros.  He's pretty distinctive.  There aren't that many red priests in Westeros and even fewer who fight with a flaming sword.  It seems perfectly reasonable to assume -- from their greeting in this episode -- that Jorah ran across Thoros at tournaments and the like, even if they never fought side-by-side before.

On 8/14/2017 at 8:59 AM, Constantinople said:

Dickon's refusal seems like a plot device so that at the end of the series Sam can be Lord Tarly (presuming there's no longer a Night's Watch).

Okay, that's a good point but I also thought it was a plot device to remind us that "good" guys are dying on both sides.  We may (I may) have cheered the dragon fire that decimated the Lannister troops last episode (they were the BAD guys -- they killed Olenna) but Tyrion seemed horrified by the slaughter of men from his home region.  We were also introduced to "nice" Lannister soldiers in an earlier episode (Hi Ed Sheeran!) and in this episode an unequivocally "nice" guy -- Dickon Tarley -- gets burnt alive as punishment for remaining loyal.  They just keep reminding us that in war (at least in this war -- and particularly, I think, in civil wars) definitions of right/wrong and good/bad get very very messy.   This point of view is reinforced with that comment by Davos reminding Tyrion that the last time they were in Kings Landing they were fighting on opposite sides and that Davos lost his son to Tyrion's wildfire bomb.  Then the capper is when all those guys (at the Wall) with all those conflicting loyalties and simmering resentments are reminded by Jon that they are all on the same side -- the side that is breathing.

Edited August 19, 2017 by WatchrTina

[Boilergal]

First I was SUPER relieved that Qyburn didn't use a poisoned dragon arrow - but I have a feeling that will be included in V2

Loved Drogon's DNA test of Jon - very similar to the one done on Tyrion in the cellar.   It would be somewhat fun to see the contrast if a non-Targaryen tried to pet their snout, I nominate Littlefinger!! 

When Gilly was talking about Ragger's (her pronunciation) annulment and new wedding,   and Sam had his melt down I was yelling SHUT UP AND LISTEN SAM!!!  Hope Gilly took Maester Maynard's diary since she was so interested in it.

White Walkers can only be killed by dragon glass and not by fire?  Thinking that Jon and Dany could fly over them Dracarys the hell out of them and move on.   Or at least fly over grab a few of them on the talons and drop them off inside Kings Landing right in Cersie's garden.

Loved the jail cell introductions - that made me laugh.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Boilergal

[FnkyChkn34]

12 hours ago, Francie said:

Jorah touched Daenerys. Who's the bookmaker on whether his greyscale is in full remission and/or whether he's still a carrier?

He touched Sam too, before he left.  So presumably it's been days and Sam is still fine.

[Chris24601]

4 hours ago, Miles said:

There probably will be some squabble for one episode, but then they'll figure out that they can both have the throne if they just marry and share it.

The issue is far too foundational to each of their worldviews for it to be something that will be papered over. There are rules to drama; you can break them from time to time to fulfill a specific purpose, but they exist in the first place because they work in concert with human experience to produce the maximum possible interest in the audience.

The biggest aspect in this case is that drama pushes binaries... good/evil, light/darkness, red/blue, fire/ice... when a choice comes up you get one or the other, not both, because this rings true to human experience; our whole psyche is geared towards to reducing decisions to binaries so we can make them quickly and efficiently and not get eaten by a sabretooth tiger while making the choice and only does a situation come up where you get to have your cake and eat it too.

Jon HAS to have the better claim for there to be drama because he doesn't want it (conversely Dany's claim must be objectively worse because she does want it). There's no drama in the person with the best claim and who wants the job getting it... nor in someone with a poor claim who doesn't want the job not getting it. There's no drama in having these two opposites deciding in the span of 20 minutes to share it either (i.e. the one with the better claim becomes the figurehead while the one who wants it rules). Drama only exists when the opposites clash and one or the other has to win... you don't get both. The fact that you have to choose and only get part of what you want is where the drama lies... the answer to which you choose tells you about who you are and what you value.

I also think that the annulment reveal coming in the same episode that Tyrion and Varys are worried about what Dany might do down the line is no accident. The conflict is NOT going to come from Jon himself; he's too busy trying to win the war; its going to come from the people who thought Dany was the only alternative to the now largely side-lined Cersei (who is only relevant because Dany won't move her forces north until she can be sure Cersei won't sweep right into the vacuum created in their absence) realizing they have another option; a home grown Targaryan with a better claim and the 'came from nothing/earned what he's got' and 'sacrifices for his people' background that can get the common folk aligned behind him.

In the same way, I see a crisis brewing in the North with the nobles (embodied by Glover) questioning their choice of King that will be blown wide open when the news breaks that Jon isn't Ned's son, but that they knelt to a  Targaryan under false pretenses... the very son of the man who started the war that got a previous Lord of Winterfell and his heir murdered by Jon's grandfather. Its to force another binary on Jon. If he embraces his Targaryan heritage he loses the North, but he might need to embrace it so he can more easily win the war against the White Walkers. Which does he choose?

Frankly, there's too much time in season eight (particularly if the rumors of all the final episodes being feature-length turns out to be true) and special effects too expensive (even with as big as their budget is) for the Army of the Dead and dragons to fill more than a couple of hours of total screen time... the rest of the four plus hours needs material and at the breakneck pace they've switched to that means they need more than just how Cersei and her allies is taken down and a brief squabble between Jon/Dany before they settle into a power-sharing scheme.

Jon's true heritage knocks both Jon and Dany's foundations out from under them... Dany wrapped up her identity in being the Last Dragon and rightful ruler of Westeros and now she's neither (yes, Viserys' crowning/heir, them using different primogeniture and a billion other nits... none matter because drama trumps even dragons). Jon wrapped up his identity in being Ned Stark's bastard son and now he's neither. Its a situation designed to make them both question who they truly are in the midst of a volatile situation where they have to make various binary choices to resolve both their inner struggles for identity and the external struggle of how the post-war power structure will shake out.

[domina89]

16 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Jon may have a better claim to the IT than Dany based on law and custom, but dragons > law and custom.  Who's going to argue in the face of a fire breathing dragon?

Well based on Drogon's response to Jon, Dany may not have the upper hand for long in that area, either...

[Tikichick]

10 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'm thinking that maybe Sansa really did ask Littlefinger to get that note for her and take it out of circulation.  Littlefinger did say "Lady Stark thanks you for your service" or whatever it was.  And in the previews for next week Arya is asking Sansa "What is it you're afraid of?".  Maybe Sansa is afraid the people will turn on her if they see that note.

I know the first inclination is that Littlefinger is setting Sansa up for something, but maybe that's not the case here.  He's definitely plotting something, but maybe this isn't part of it.

If he were truly doing this as a genuine service for Sansa, why not take it to Sansa or destroy it?  Instead you leave it where the sister you know is watching will discover and read it?  How does it serve Sansa if Arya questions her motivations? 

An angry Arya potentially leaves Sansa more vulnerable.  Surely LF wouldn't want that to happen. 

[Haleth]

6 minutes ago, domina89 said:

Well based on Drogon's response to Jon, Dany may not have the upper hand for long in that area, either...

True, but from everything we've seen Jon doesn't want the Iron Throne.  He only wants the North and will probably abdicate in favor of his aunt anyway.  (Unless they end up ruling together.)

[Constantinople]

11 minutes ago, Boilergal said:

White Walkers can only be killed by dragon glass and not by fire?  Thinking that Jon and Dany could fly over them Dracarys the hell out of them and move on.   Or at least fly over grab a few of them on the talons and drop them off inside Kings Landing right in Cersie's garden.

White Walkers can be killed by dragon glass (obsidian) or by Valyrian steel.

Wights, so far as I know, can only be killed by fire.

[Boilergal]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

White Walkers can be killed by dragon glass (obsidian) or by Valyrian steel.

Wights, so far as I know, can only be killed by fire.

Thanks, I can't remember what can be killed with what - heck I can barely remember what I did yesterday.

[Tikichick]

10 hours ago, rachel is awesome said:

I hope this is correct! Either way, I was pretty excited to see Gendry and I was amused by the 'still rowing a boat' comment. 

AND I also hope that Arya knows she's being played by Littlefinger or she's not really the badass they want us to believe. 

I was hoping that Jon would ride a dragon this episode (I have no knowledge of any dragon-riding, I'm just hoping based on speculation from you fine folks). 

I'm really not excited about this trip to catch a wight. I feel like it's going to end badly, it's for naught, and that it's wasting precious story time that could be served better by Jon riding a dragon. 

Also, when Gilly was reading that book and she read the part about "Regger" annulling the marriage, I sat STRAIGHT UP on the couch and waited for Sam to have the same reaction. He never did. I hope he brought that book with him though. 

I believe the book may have been packed up with young Samwell when they headed out.  I also wonder if it's possible that young Samwell would potentially be considered as the reigning Lord Tarly given recent developments?  If so, Randall's ashes would roll if they could.

[Blonde Gator]

8 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Remember that Kings or Queen's can legitimize bastards.  Jon can make Gendry legitimate. 

 

Also, remember as book readers, many for a long time have felt that Elia and Rheagar had a loveless marriage and it was possible that her children, were not his children and we would find that out when Aegon tried to tame one of the dragons.  That he's not a Targ.

 

 

I think it would be interesting if after all this time wondering who would be the one who killed Cersei, if it turns out that the Younger, more Beautiful woman turns out to be her own daughter and Cersei dies in childbirth.  It would be a Martin thing to do, for Cersei to die, but not in the way that people expected or wanted.

Even better, would be Cersei finding out that Maggie the Frog's prophecy was WRONG, and Cersei had been planning/living her life around that prophecy since she was 11.  Think of how crazy she'd get over that!   GRRM has his characters say in several ways that prophecy is a two edged sword.  As you said, a "Martin thing to do".

[Blonde Gator]

7 hours ago, KaleyFirefly said:

Jamie swam across a lake in heavy armor and with a gold hand? Humph. 

I'm not so sure.  Did you see Jaime's armor when he came out of the water?   Jaime was mud-covered, head to toe, while Bronn was merely wet. I think Jaime sunk into the mud and Bronn had to huff and puff and use all of his might to get Jaime out and to the surface.  Very convenient camera angle and lack of Lannies, though.  Poorly conceived shot, on the part of the writers.

Either that or plot armor is also used as a life-preserver in Westeros (it has a little CO2 cartridge you can pull to inflate, in case of an emergency!)

[FnkyChkn34]

7 minutes ago, doram said:

Jon should start by making himself legitimate.

I still maintain that Jon is legitimate - Robb legitimized him.  And, in addition to, Gilly found evidence that he was legitimate in the first place.

[YaddaYadda]

8 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Also, remember as book readers, many for a long time have felt that Elia and Rheagar had a loveless marriage and it was possible that her children, were not his children and we would find that out when Aegon tried to tame one of the dragons.  That he's not a Targ.

Really? I'm a book reader and I didn't even know that people believed that Aegon and Rhaenys were not Rhaegar's. Rhaenys might have looked like her mother, but Aegon looked like his father. Granted, this is the only message board I do, so I most definitely missed a lot of speculations. 

I can buy that Elia and Rhaegar didn't love each other, or that love might have flowed only in one direction. This whole marriage felt like a competition between Tywin and the Princess of Dorne to start with. I think it especially sucks that Doran got to marry for love and not even someone from Westeros at that, while Oberyn got to gallivant all over the world and do whatever he pleased, while Elia got to have the arranged marriage. 

And as far as Aegon being roasted by a dragon to prove that he's not a Targaryen, if he's a Blackfyre, he'd still have Targaryen blood, so that won't prove anything.

[Hana Chan]

The scene with Jon having his face to face with Drogon is what really made this episode for me, and there were so many little elements that I think I've watched it about a dozen times already trying to catch everything. At first we have Jon being so in awe of Drogon, and having the proper respect and fear that one would expect with being faced with such a huge, dangerous animal. The way Drogon at first was roaring right in John's face, but then quickly stilling once he got up close and could start scenting him. The way Drogon's lips curled back was pure flehmen response (something you see with horses and cats when they're using the scent receptors in their mouths - something they do when they really want to pick up an important scent). Once Jon started touching him with his bare hand, you could see Drogon start to relax, with his eyes and expression softening and he began this trilling/purring sound that sounded like a pretty happy dragon to me. Like others, I was almost expecting him to roll over for a belly rub because he seemed that entranced by Jon.

And Dany's WTF? expression... priceless.

Other things that I loved... Welcome back Gendry! He looks great and I loved him bonding with Jon over both of them being bastards (or at least in Jon's case believing he's a bastard) and starting a friendship like their fathers had. And that war hammer! Starting singing "It's Hammer Time" when he smashed those Goldcloaks into hamburger. Davos is amazing as always, and I'm always happy to see the Hound, Thormond and the Brotherhood. Now they're facing winter beyond the wall... why can't it be next Sunday already? *whines*

I actually appreciate that Dany may end up going into a darker place and the similarities to her father might be a little too close for some. Sorry to lose Dickon Tarley, but his father did spell out why Dany may have a very difficult time in winning over the people of Westeros. Regardless of the fact that she was born in Westeros, she lived her entire life outside the kingdoms and is leading foreign armies against the people that she wants to rule. Like it or not, that's going to be a real challenge for her to deal with. And killing the Tarleys in the way she did is the kind of thing that her father would have done, which may get people to fear her but again will make winning the people over very difficult. I think that she's in a lose/lose situation here because she's got this massive power at her disposal and she needs to use it in order to win, but using that power makes her look like the invading tyrant that Cersi and others are painting her to be. 

And again, we have the hypocrisy on her part that she calls herself the "Breaker of Chains", yet she gives the captured soldiers a very stark choice - obedience or death. Commanding loyalty because they fear dying in a brutally horrific manner just makes a mockery of her claims to wanting to make things better in Westeros. I'm waiting for her to realize this.

Sam getting out of Oldtown is fine by me since his storyline is a bit limited there. Loved Gilly just stumbling on the entry about Rheagar's annulment and his second marriage and Sam having absolutely no clue that this is really, really, REALLY important. Looks like this is one of the books that they're taking along with them so we'll have some real proof of Jon's parentage (and possibly even more importantly, his legitimacy) once it becomes a factor in the big war. And finding it by sheer happenstance? Priceless.

The stuff that I liked less... Cersi being pregnant? Please spare me... she's fucked up and gotten killed enough kids already. Would be a hoot if it wasn't Jamie's but we'll have to see. And the Winterfell segment is irking me. Was expecting Littlefinger to start seeding dissent against Jon with the Vale forces and a few of the weaker Northern Lords, and I wasn't totally surprised that Sansa's defense of Jon wasn't a bit more full throated. Some of these idiots are acting as if Jon buggered off to take a long holiday in the south, when he's working on forging alliances and getting the materials that they're going to need to deal with what's coming from beyond the wall. This is the kind of stuff that Jon should be doing, not sitting around and holding his subjects' hands because they don't like not having their king immediately close by.

And trying to instigate more conflict between Arya and Sansa is just annoying. Arya isn't totally wrong about Sansa's desire for her own power, but I don't think that Sansa is actively working against Jon's interests. It was more of enjoying the flattery and then coming back to reality. And Sansa is learning that being in charge sucks sometimes. Hopefully she's already on to LF and this drama will get resolved fairly quickly because I have little patience for this kind of pettiness when the big, big war is right on their doorsteps.

Is it next Sunday yet? *grumps*

[Tikichick]

9 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

It could also be setting up conflict for Jon being crowned king as a Targaryen heir:  Gendry is a Baratheon heir. So now we could have a war of kings all over again.  EXCEPT Jon's too smart for that. He'd walk away.

Notably Gendry has also gone north, coming through salt (water) and smoke (smithing) to do so.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Not in the show, I think? But someone can correct me on that.

I swear I remember it from the show, but I guess no one else agrees with me.  Maybe I'm just going insane and pictured all of the actors in my head when I read the book?  I recall Robb and Cat arguing, and then Robb giving the proclamation to Maege.

9 hours ago, dragonsbite said:

It could also be setting up conflict for Jon being crowned king as a Targaryen heir:  Gendry is a Baratheon heir. So now we could have a war of kings all over again.  EXCEPT Jon's too smart for that. He'd walk away.

 

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Notably Gendry has also gone north, coming through salt (water) and smoke (smithing) to do so.

Gendry and Jon would fight over who does NOT become King.  Do you honestly think either one of them wants to be King and sit on the Iron Throne?

[jeansheridan]

6 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Either that or plot armor is also used as a life-preserver in Westeros (it has a little CO2 cartridge you can pull to inflate, in case of an emergency!)

The Tyrion/Jorah save was just as bad. Basically GOT is crap when it comes to water. There is no defending the physical "logic". Just need to move on.

Emotionally it worked. Bronn insulting him. Jaime looking devastated.

I forgot to mention that Drogon on his stone "throne" was so beautiful. That was a gorgeous shot.

[KungFuBunny]

12 hours ago, tomsmom said:

Um that throwaway line about Rhaegar's annulment???? HUGE!

I wish Jilly kept reading. Maybe the maester signed off on the annulment and then performed the wedding between Rhaegar and Lyanna

[Hana Chan]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

How could infertility be the grounds when Elia had already borne Rhaegar two children?

It had been stated in the books that Elia was quite frail after her first two pregnancies and we know that Targ pregnancies are generally very difficult. The odds are that she either could no longer conceive, or would not be strong enough to being able to bring another pregnancy to term.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Hana Chan

[domina89]

21 minutes ago, Haleth said:

True, but from everything we've seen Jon doesn't want the Iron Throne.  He only wants the North and will probably abdicate in favor of his aunt anyway.  (Unless they end up ruling together.)

I agree with you that he probably won't want it, but I do think he would step up and take it if the people wanted him to and if he truly believed Dany shouldn't rule for some reason.  We see seeds of doubt already being planted in the minds of Tyrion and Varys, and Jon admitted he was conflicted about her involvement at the Field of Fire 2.0 (and he doesn't even know about the Tarlys yet).  Also, as others have pointed out, there is a reason the writers are focusing on Jon's parentage, legitimacy and possible right to the Iron Throne.  It could definitely happen.

[Francie]

12 hours ago, Kanner said:

The burning was not that bad either. She gave them a choice

We'll see how well this "choice" will play out when if it's ever Lyanna Mormont refusing to bend the knee. Because Bear Island will recognize no king but the King of the North.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I swear I remember it from the show, but I guess no one else agrees with me.  Maybe I'm just going insane and pictured all of the actors in my head when I read the book?  I recall Robb and Cat arguing, and then Robb giving the proclamation to Maege.

 

Gendry and Jon would fight over who does NOT become King.  Do you honestly think either one of them wants to be King and sit on the Iron Throne?

Why does the prince who was promised have to be destined to sit on the throne?  It seems this mission is pretty important in order for all of these grudges to be set aside and this motley, yet breathing, crew to set out and undertake this task.

[lovetowrite73]

I really, REALLY hope that Gilly took that book along with her!

[YaddaYadda]

Jon wanting to go home.

Me: You left home to come home, to leave home to go home. 

[Tikichick]

Please refresh my memory, does Gendry know Arry is Arya Stark?

[FnkyChkn34]

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Why does the prince who was promised have to be destined to sit on the throne?  It seems this mission is pretty important in order for all of these grudges to be set aside and this motley, yet breathing, crew to set out and undertake this task.

If Jon really is the Prince Who Was Promised, then maybe all he has to do is appoint someone who'd be a better ruler than he would, and everyone would listen.

[Francie]

1 minute ago, Tikichick said:

Please refresh my memory, does Gendry know Arry is Arya Stark?

Yes. He gave her all that crap, calling her "My lady" after he found out.

39 minutes ago, Boilergal said:

Thanks, I can't remember what can be killed with what - heck I can barely remember what I did yesterday.

This is the exact reason why I would die. 

I'd be facing one down and I'd be going, "Wait, do I take them out with fire or obsidian? Fire? No wait, obsid ...." dead.

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, The Kings Foot said:

On another note. People do realize Dragon glass /obsidian is a stone and not a metal. You don't forge it. And Gendry would be useless. 

 

Tormund would have a better idea what to do. 

Nerd note:  Per the books, the ancient Velaryans actually melted stone (and obsidian) to create smooth walls and roads (reread the chapters where Tyrion is on the roads in Essos, during his flight from Cersei after offing Tywin in the loo).  Dragonstone was built with stone, obsidian and fire (dragonfire, no doubt).  So, the Velaryans forged obsidian, making it liquid rock once again, it's origin is volcanic, and is often times described as "volcanic glass".   I suspect obsidian needs to be added to regular iron to create dragonsteel.  No doubt Gendry will make that happy discovery at some point in the future.  In book/season 1, Gendry worked for the armorer who reforged Ice into the two Lannister blades, IIRC. 

[Francie]

3 hours ago, jacehan said:

I like the way you are thinking. If so, hypothesis:

 

Mother - Dany

Maiden - Brienne

Crone - Melisandre

Father - Jaime (?)

Warrior - Jon

Smith - Gendry

Stranger - Arya

In my version, the only change I'd make is that I'd replace the mother with Sansa.

[Hana Chan]

Just now, doram said:

Infertility is not grounds for an annulment, for one.

And Elia had done her duty - she had given Rhaegar a heir and a spare if Viserys died and they had to fall back on Rhaenys. Aerys, in turn, had a spare in Viserys. 

Not by our standards, but way back when, if a woman wasn't able to conceive then it was considered pretty acceptable for her husband to end the marriage. Especially among royals. Henry VIII went through a whole bunch of wives, divorcing or executing them pretty much at will, until Jane Seymour finally gave him the male heir he desperately wanted (and died from post-natal complications as a result). For those of royal lineages, a spouse's ability to further the family line is basically their chief importance.

And yes, Elia had given him two children, but there was the prophecy that Rheagar was focused on and he needed a third child. If Elia was no longer able to give it to him, then it would be pretty logical for him to find someone who would. Not nice by our standards, but I think that judging him by modern sensibilities is at all constructive.

[Tikichick]

8 hours ago, Sweet Summer Child said:

Kind of wondering what the hell happened to Yara, Grey Worm, and Theon.  I guess time will tell.

I would love a Gendry gif reacting to this comment.

[RandyRanderson]

Regarding Jon's claim to the throne, why would anyone believe it?  The only people who know his parentage are dead (Ned), MIA and unlikely to appear (Howland Reed) and Bran.  So far Bran doesn't seem like he's going to explain/reveal much and even if he does, would people believe him?  The Three-Eyed Raven wasn't a well know person/ability was he?  So Bran all of a sudden being able to see everything, especially from before he was born, would see very far fetched.  And conveniently the person his visions show is the rightful heir to the throne was also raised as his brother.

The book Gilly found shows that Rhaegar and Lynna married but so far there's no mention of a child.  And even so that wouldn't prove it was Jon, unless it says Ned took the baby to raise as his bastard. 

[The Kings Foot]

4 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

Nerd note:  Per the books, the ancient Velaryans actually melted stone (and obsidian) to create smooth walls and roads (reread the chapters where Tyrion is on the roads in Essos, during his flight from Cersei after offing Tywin in the loo).  Dragonstone was built with stone, obsidian and fire (dragonfire, no doubt).  So, the Velaryans forged obsidian, making it liquid rock once again, it's origin is volcanic, and is often times described as "volcanic glass".   I suspect obsidian needs to be added to regular iron to create dragonsteel.  No doubt Gendry will make that happy discovery at some point in the future.  In book/season 1, Gendry worked for the armorer who reforged Ice into the two Lannister blades, IIRC. 

Using Dragons to melt rocks to make walls and  roads does not equal forging stone. Note Obsidian is not an actual mineral which can be melted.  It is a byproduct which is formed when rock cools rapidly.  So you dont melt obsidian.

[YaddaYadda]

1 minute ago, RandyRanderson said:

The book Gilly found shows that Rhaegar and Lynna married but so far there's no mention of a child.  And even so that wouldn't prove it was Jon, unless it says Ned took the baby to raise as his bastard. 

I don't think it would make sense for Jon's birth to be recorded if everyone present at the tower from the Kingsguard to Ned were trying to protect him after his family was decimated in the war. 

[Tikichick]

7 hours ago, Miles said:

Count me among the people who think Arya should see through Littlefinger's schemes immediatly and kill him before the end of the next episode. Everything else seems OOC at this point.

I certainly would be on board for that one! Hottest possible pairing left, really.

Doesn't matter. Jon is still in direct line, no matter who died first.

Not really. Jon is the legitemate son of the crown prince, so in direct line and a man. Dany is not in direct line, since she is the third born and she is a woman. She would only have a claim when all male heirs are gone.

In the end it really only matters who has the bigger army, but according to the laws Jon's claim is a loooooot stronger than Dany's.

LF has a long, drawn out thread through the entire series, which we still don't have a clear understanding of.  I don't mind him drawing his last breath, but it is not allowed until I get an explanation, a full and complete one.  That's simply not going to be possible next week.  This week's episode suffered enough in the time crunch for the push to the end.  I don't think it's simply sloppiness, plot armor, lack of attention to continuity that has us wondering about Sansa's motivations, Dany's inability to convey much in her glances, Jame and Bronn surviving their day at Blackwater Day Spa, etc.  I strongly suspect that when this whole thing is done we're going to get interviews revealing deep production disappointments at what they had to cut to fly this dragon home in the end.

[The Kings Foot]

41 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I still maintain that Jon is legitimate - Robb legitimized him.  And, in addition to, Gilly found evidence that he was legitimate in the first place.

Robb legitimized him as a son of Ned Stark. Gilly's evidence legitimizes him as a son of Rhaegar Targaryean.    That kinda creates a problem.

[Constantinople]

29 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

It had been stated in the books that Elia was quite frail after her first two pregnancies and we know that Targ pregnancies are generally very difficult. The odds are that she either could no longer conceive, or would not be strong enough to being able to bring another pregnancy to term.

Generally a marriage can't be annulled on the grounds of infertility after the couple have already had children.  If the inability to have further children were the standard, then sooner or later all marriages could be annulled

[FnkyChkn34]

1 minute ago, The Kings Foot said:

Robb legitimized him as a son of Ned Stark. Gilly's evidence legitimizes him as a son of Rhaegar Targaryean.    That kinda creates a problem.

Very true.  But, at least he's not a bastard.

15 minutes ago, RandyRanderson said:

Regarding Jon's claim to the throne, why would anyone believe it?  The only people who know his parentage are dead (Ned), MIA and unlikely to appear (Howland Reed) and Bran.  So far Bran doesn't seem like he's going to explain/reveal much and even if he does, would people believe him?  The Three-Eyed Raven wasn't a well know person/ability was he?  So Bran all of a sudden being able to see everything, especially from before he was born, would see very far fetched.  And conveniently the person his visions show is the rightful heir to the throne was also raised as his brother.

The book Gilly found shows that Rhaegar and Lynna married but so far there's no mention of a child.  And even so that wouldn't prove it was Jon, unless it says Ned took the baby to raise as his bastard. 

I think Howland Reed will appear.  Otherwise, why have Meera mention needing to be with her family and that whole awful, awkward goodbye?

[Blonde Gator]

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Sam doesn't need that information right now though. In that moment, it felt more like fodder for gossip than crucial information. 

The North does have time to play apparently, given how Glover is there bitching about Jon being away and how they maybe should have gone for Sansa to lead them. 

Also Royce should take several seats. The first person to die on the show and the books ever was his son. So he needs to shut his trap. 

I would really like to see dragonglass starting to arrive at Winterfell in the remaining episodes. 

No, he didn't. Rhaegar died before Aerys did, and Aerys bypassed Aegon and named Viserys his heir which raises tons of questions (for me at least). Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys to Dragonstone and kept Elia and her kids with him at the Red Keep. When Aerys died, Rhaella crowned Viserys. 

This whole hiding out in Dorne is so bizarre. And it's not like the ToJ is isolated or anything like that. There are two castles not that "far" from it. And if you're held up somewhere for months, you need to have food. They might have gotten that from the caravans that pass there. But the Dornish might have known where Rhaegar was, because how do you hide him (unless he's been dying his hair), and Arthur Dayne is there, and he is Dornish and everyone knows the Sword of the Morning. But in King's Landing, people have no clue where Rhaegar has gone. 

The whole thing is just a whole lot of questions with no answers.

Hmmm.  In looking this up on the Westeros.org wiki, you are spot-on.  After Rhaegar died at the Trident, King Aerys did name Viserys his heir, skipping the infant son of Rhaegar, Aegon.  Aerys then had (now pregnant) Rhaella and the heir-apparent, Viserys, put on Dragonstone for their safety, while Aerys remained in Kings Landing, along with Elia Martell, and her two children (who were later killed by the Mountain) Before Rhaella departed Westeros, fleeing with Viserys and newborn Daenyres, Queen Rhaella actually crowned Viserys.  I am not sure how this would affect the "succession", since Targ kings in the past had skipped their obvious heirs and gone so far as to name legitimized bastards over the first-born son(s).  Targs are strange that way.

Rhaegar (or "Ragger", as Gilly calls him, cracked me up!) obviously was intent upon keeping his secrets safe, hence he took his three best Kings Guard with him to guard a pregnant Lyanna, who was carrying the Prince That Was Promised (in Rhaegar's mind).  There is so much we just don't know, and never forget.....narrators in the POV chapters are often unreliable!!!