S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Oscirus]

56 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

The analogy feels perfectly fine to me and I gave a very specific example.  Robb did something stupid and then tried to fix his mistake by marrying the girl he had dishonored and offering plenty of reparations, honors and power to Frey for breaking his promise.  It's not Robb's fault that Walder then decided to murder hundreds of people.  That's on Walder because he's a despicable asshole.  Likewise, a woman may decide to walk home alone in the middle of the night in a big city and many would consider that a mistake, or at least taking an unnecessary risk; but that doesn't matter, if she gets raped, it's not her fault.  She's a victim.  The rape is on the rapist not on her.

For me, it's not Robb's fault that Walder is a murderer and it's not Ned's fault that LF is a sociopath and Cersei a power hungry idiot.  The ones to blame for the deaths are Walder, LF and Cersei.  And, I would add that, given the nature of these people in the books and show, they would have caused the deaths of many no matter what the Starks did.  LF would have found a way to cause chaos if Catelyn hadn't fallen for his lies, Tywin would have found a way to obliterate anyone who defied him (like the Reynnes of Castamere) no matter the casualties, Walder would have murdered those he felt offended him, and so on.   I don't see how those who may have made mistakes, but are trying to do the right thing and fighting for the right cause are to blame for the evil of others.

And I'll leave it at that.  Agree to disagree.  Plus, this wouldn't be the right thread to continue this discussion.

Not even close to a good analogy.  

Rob straight disrespected somebody who provided a service to him  and tried to fix it by giving him things of lesser value. So yea h Robb takes alot of the blame for the future events that transpired All those deaths at the red wedding are on his head. He knew the stakes when he did what he did. He failed his people by leading them to slaughter. It's a constant theme with the starks. It's not victim blaming when the only victims in these scenarios are all the Stark followers who got killed following their idiotic failed leaders.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Oscirus

[WearyTraveler]

26 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Not even close to a good analogy.  

Rob straight disrespected somebody who provided a service to him  and tried to fix it by giving him things of lesser value. So yea h Robb takes alot of the blame for the future events that transpired All those deaths at the red wedding are on his head. He knew the stakes when he did what he did. He failed his people by leading them to slaughter. It's a constant theme with the starks. It's not victim blaming when the only victims in these scenarios are all the Stark followers who got killed following their idiotic failed leaders.

Like I said, agree to disagree.  I'm not engaging in endless circular conversations.  I've made my point and you made yours.  You're not going to convince me and I'm not going to convince you.  There's no prize to be won for being "right" / "winning" the argument.  And this is not the thread for it, anyway.

[YaddaYadda]

This whole Arya hates Sansa debate is insane.

They are mean to each other, but they don't hate each other. They are sisters. Often, siblings don't learn to love each other as they should until they're older.

And if anyone is going to say how Arya hates her sister because of all the girly things she can do, then maybe we shouldn't forget that Sansa and her friend Jeyne Poole made fun of Arya, called her Arya Horseface, put her down through her looks which is something girls are sensitive about. Septa Mordane told Arya that she had a smith's or stable boy's hands and Catelyn was just discouraged that Arya wasn't like Sansa. 

I always found is just sad that when Ned tells Arya that she reminds him of Lyanna and even looks like her, Arya's reply is to say that Lyanna was beautiful. And when Lady Smallwood says she's pretty, Arya thinks that only her father and Jon ever called her pretty. That's pretty sad for a little girl, when we know that looks are valued in society. 

[benteen]

Robert's grandmother was a Targaryen princess so that would make Gendry a cousin of both Dany and Jon.  There is blood in the dragon in him too although I'm pretty sure the Targaryen connection has never been discussed on the show.

[darkestboy]

Good episode but more a set up than anything else though.

I enjoyed Gendry returning and working with Jon, Jorah, Davos and the Hound, so next week's battle with the White Walkers should be interesting to watch.

Cersei being pregnant can't end well, if we're going by that prophecy of her but I did find her line about Jaime betraying her a bit worrying. Bronn's probably screwed as well so to speak.

Nice reunion moment with Jaime and Tyrion. I am hoping the latter can win the former around at some point.

Dany was harsh with the Tarlys but I did enjoy her scenes with Jon this week.

The sooner Arya kills Littlefinger, the better. I don't want him getting between her, Sansa and Bran.

What will Sam and Gilly do now they've left that place? 8/10

[Tikichick]

15 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

ARYA hates Sansa because she is feminine. I'm not talking about the audience.

Growing up the sisters don't understand each other well because they both have different takes on what they want in life, what's interesting/matters to them.  They don't naturally click together.  Far different thing from hatred.  They were both happy to see one another again.  Initially Sansa hugs Arya.  If Arya is so filled with hatred for Sansa, why did she subsequently hug her sister after they've talked for a few minutes? 

When LF sees Arya's skills sparring with Brienne he knows he must drive a wedge between the two.  It looks a lot like the wedge he has attempted to drive between Jon and Sansa.  Notably he's also made a bid to sidle up to Bran and sow the seeds for something there.  It appears Bran rebuffed him, but did LF somehow achieve his objective in that exchange after all, an objective we don't quite understand yet?   Inevitably I believe the final wedge in the LF/Stark saga will be Sansa's, right between LF's eyes. 

Talk about seething anger, you will find the young Lady Stark's picture in the dictionary right next to it.

[Hana Chan]

16 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I'm pretty sure Robb wouldn't have asked her to call him King Robb or Lord Stark. Ditto for Jon.  As I said, it's one thing to use titles when the setting or conversation is official, and an entirely different matter when kicked back as siblings shooting the shit.

It's one thing if Sansa or Jon were being addressed in front of subordinates - then it would be appropriate for even their siblings to address them by their title as a show of respect. But in private? Even joking, that just comes across as being very high handed on Sansa's part. And given that they are not exactly close, it's understandable to my why it would rub Arya the wrong way. Whether Sansa was serious or not, I don't think it should have come across as too much of a surprise that Arya would not respond well.

Sansa was, unfortunately, a real snob when she was younger. She treated Jon and Arya pretty terribly and she recognizes that fact. Has she totally overcome her deeply ingrained beliefs that she's got more right to lead on account of her birth? Not really. Does she still look down on her sister? Yeah, she kind of does. She's matured in many ways and I'm not going to take that away from her. She's been through hell, but so has Arya and Jon. Sansa still has a lot of growing up to do.

[benteen]

1 hour ago, darkestboy said:

 

Cersei being pregnant can't end well, if we're going by that prophecy of her but I did find her line about Jaime betraying her a bit worrying. Bronn's probably screwed as well so to speak.

Yeah, I suspect we'll never end up seeing that kid.  It got me wondering though, what would the kid be named?  I figure it would be named after its grandparents, either Tywin or Joanna.

[Blonde Gator]

10 hours ago, AshleyN said:

Legit question because I can't remember: do we have any evidence for this beyond what Melisandre (who's record when it comes interpreting to what the Lord of Light wants is pretty spotty) says? Because the strongest evidence we have of the Lord of Light's power are the resurrections of Beric and Jon*, and I don't think either of those required blood sacrifice?

*And I can't be the only one hoping we get a little chat between those two on this subject in the next episode, can I?

In any case, I do agree with whoever said upthread that they don't expect Jon's resurrection to play out quite the same in the books. At the very least, I think it's a virtual guarantee that he wargs into Ghost, allowing him to retain his mind much better than Beric or Cat did.

Here's the Wiki of Ice and Fire entry on Blood Magic.  https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?title=Bloodmagic&redirect=no

You can follow the footnotes to read the details in each chapter.

Melisandre's whole schtick is "there is power in King's blood". 

As for Jon's ressurection, I suspect you are exactly correct.  D&D never explored the warging capabilities of any of the Stark children except Bran, and by the time Jon got heart stabbed, it would have made no sense to the Unsullied (show watchers).

[Tikichick]

13 minutes ago, benteen said:

Yeah, I suspect we'll never end up seeing that kid.  It got me wondering though, what would the kid be named?  I figure it would be named after its grandparents, either Tywin or Joanna.

For grins and giggles I want her to die giving birth to a dwarf -- of course not until after she's seen the child with her own two eyes.

You have given me another bit to snicker about though, Jamie can name the lad Tywin in honor of dear, old grandpappy.

[FnkyChkn34]

15 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

The fact remains that both Thoros of Myr and Mellisandre are priest/priestess of the Lord of Light.  And GRRM is on record as saying "Fire Wight".   That article I grabbed earlier was merely the first one that came up when I googled it.  There are hundreds of other articles about this interview on the interwebs.  It's GRRM's story, so I trust what he says.

To me, the implication is that the Children of the Forest created the White Walkers, who, were first brought to a "new life" using a human of Stark heritage (who possessed warging abilities)....allows the WW's to create thralls, mindless creatures, capable of being given a goal.....killing all things living.  "Ice based" magic, if you will.  So Ice Magic is apparently able to be pushed down and outward (dead humans, dead animals).

The way I see it is that warging is a rare human ability, that manifests in people of specific bloodlines (Starks, and perhaps the Reeds, who I suspect may have intermarried with the CotF in the distant past).  There are other humans who have been gifted with the ability to see the future....specifically, those of Velaryian blood.

There's yet another magic being loosed upon the world....fire based magic.  Blood magic (although the CotF's magic is also blood-based, IMO).   But out of Fire Magic, we have dragons, and apparently resurrections where there is no warging necessary....allowing "fire wights" to be brought back with the same self-actualization that they had in "real" life.  No warging necessary for a fire wight's purpose.  My suspicion is that "Fire Magic" is a separate thing from Ice Magic....and in competition with it as well....and that Fire Magic originated in Essos, rather than Westeros.

Thus far, in the books (and to a lesser extent on the series) we've seen several resurrections:

Beric:  Brought back by the Lord of Light, seven times.  Each time he is diminished.

Varamyr Six Skins:  A warg, but wargs who inhabit their living warg subjects eventually are overcome by their host being(s).  His magic is Ice Magic, and Westerosi based.

Jon Snow:  Brought back once, IMO, by the Lord of Light.  He may be THE special case, because he's not yet begun to deteriorate, except to become far more himself, broody and introspective.

Benjen:  A special case, killed by the WW'ers (Ice Wight), but brought back to a semblance of awareness by the CotF.   Who knows here????

So....that's my theory of how things stand, for now.  But GRRM said "fire wight" for a reason.  For now, my interpretation is that Ice and Fire Magic are two different things, and that they must unite in order to save the world.

Lady Stoneheart too, right?

Just my two cents - I disagree with everyone that says that Jon is a zombie.  He's not a reanimated corpse, as that suggests he's not living and breathing with a soul.  I think he was brought back to true life somehow; he's human.  I don't know how, and don't really care how, I guess.

[Tikichick]

I don't understand the whole Arya has no sense of humor, Sansa was being so high-handed, etc.?

Arya began the joke by asking the question, Sansa answered, clearly understanding her sister's joke and enjoying the humor in it.  There were hugs all around.  Sansa tells Arya Bran's home, let's her know he's changed and off they scoot to catch up with him. 

[Blonde Gator]

6 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

To repeat, MY well-supported theory is that D&D decided to do a simple "Raise Dead" spell as an alternative to the likely convoluted resurrection Martin will use in the books that will probably hinge on Jon being a warg in the books (while he is NOT a warg on the show). Rather than spent half an episode retroactively making Jon a warg and then trying to convey that Jon's soul was inside Ghost without going all cheesy like having us hear Jon's thoughts or some such that would completely break from the established style of the series... the showrunners said "You know, we never established that there were any of the fire wight side-effects to the Red Priest resurrections, so let's just use that to save time and get on with the story because we can't spent 100 minutes explaining all this the way Martin can spend 100 pages doing the same in the books; the general audience whose never read the books will never even notice the difference anyway."

The mistake is in thinking that the same showrunners who decided to replace Jeyne Pool with Sansa for the rape storyline and dumping her Vale arc almost entirely in order to save time are going to accurately convey the actual method by which Jon will be resurrected in the books.

Jon isn't a fire wight on the show because there are no fire wights in the show. Jon won't be a fire wight in the books because his resurrection will be much more involved than just Melisandre breathing fire magic into his body and that's it.
 

And to be fair, while the show has not done a very good job of explaining it, The Seven is actually The Seven Who Are One.; a singular God with seven aspects (basically a more complex version of the Trinity). The Seven and the Lord of Light could even just be different interpretations of the same singular God.

There's also the possibility too that there are no gods at all and its just "magic" that some people or bloodlines are capable of and the abilities are attributed to gifts of a supernatural power rather than genetically inherited superpowers.

But I stand by my original contention outlined above... that D&D didn't have the time or budget to show Jon in Ghost's body (i.e. direwolf FX which always get the short shrift) while paying Kit Harrington lots of money to just lie on a table so they skipped the convoluted stuff that they'd already messed up by NOT making Jon a warg earlier so having him suddenly become one would look like a total asspull to the general audience and instead, D&D (pun intended in this case) just had the Cleric cast "Raise Dead" and moved on.

I undestand.  My comment was to another poster who seems to think that at this point, we are to discount two opposing forces (Great Other, Lord of Light) and who then threw out The Seven as possible causes for ressurection....so I was asking for evidence of that assertion, to which there was none.

I understand that the show runners have not YET shown that the Southern resurrections are created as fire wights, but they may very well do that, because all of the viewers can see the difference between the thrall wights, and Beric/Jon who have their own motivations.   Our only explanation thus far appears to be magic, and in the show, the most powerful practitioners are priests/preistesses of the LoL, who are always ranting about the Great Other to whom they are in direct opposition. 

I alluded in my comments to MrWhyte that the only other possible explanation of these two gods was "just magic", exactly as you stated.   In conclusion, you stepped into the middle of my discussion with someone else.....I agree with everything you've written about the possible sources of resurrections.  But when GRRM says Beric (and Jon by extension) are fire wights, I believe THAT, because it IS canon, whether or not the series chooses to share that information.

[benteen]

15 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

For grins and giggles I want her to die giving birth to a dwarf -- of course not until after she's seen the child with her own two eyes.

You have given me another bit to snicker about though, Jamie can name the lad Tywin in honor of dear, old grandpappy.

There would be cosmic justice in her dying giving birth to a dwarf, wouldn't there?

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, benteen said:

There would be cosmic justice in her dying giving birth to a dwarf, wouldn't there?

It's just the amusing thought that went through my head when she clasped her abdomen while making her announcement to Jamie.  Cosmic justice, indeed.  You inspired me to allow the cosmos to clap back at Tywin simultaneously.  Can't stop giggling about my little daydream.

[Blonde Gator]

36 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

It's one thing if Sansa or Jon were being addressed in front of subordinates - then it would be appropriate for even their siblings to address them by their title as a show of respect. But in private? Even joking, that just comes across as being very high handed on Sansa's part. And given that they are not exactly close, it's understandable to my why it would rub Arya the wrong way. Whether Sansa was serious or not, I don't think it should have come across as too much of a surprise that Arya would not respond well.

Sansa was, unfortunately, a real snob when she was younger. She treated Jon and Arya pretty terribly and she recognizes that fact. Has she totally overcome her deeply ingrained beliefs that she's got more right to lead on account of her birth? Not really. Does she still look down on her sister? Yeah, she kind of does. She's matured in many ways and I'm not going to take that away from her. She's been through hell, but so has Arya and Jon. Sansa still has a lot of growing up to do.

An excellent observation.  And we know from the Sansa/Jon reunion that she apologized for her younger snobiness, too.  A sincere convo between Sansa/Arya might have cleared all of this off the decks, but D&D have got to go for drama where there probably shouldn't be any.  It's kind of frustrating that they go for this, again and again, where they could use some of the time for better explorations of main character motivations, etc (anticipated future angst of loved-up Tyrion jealous of Jon & Dany).  I'd rather see the two sisters sit down and have a heart-to-heart for ten minutes early on, than to see all of this ginned up drama five minutes at a time over several episodes.  But that is GOT versus ASOIAF in a nutshell, I guess.  It's still the most fantastic series ever, even though it routinely requires us to suspend our disbelief at some of the crazy stuff they ask us to believe (time warps and Euron's fleet, for example). 

[YaddaYadda]

10 hours ago, AshleyN said:

Legit question because I can't remember: do we have any evidence for this beyond what Melisandre (who's record when it comes interpreting to what the Lord of Light wants is pretty spotty) says? Because the strongest evidence we have of the Lord of Light's power are the resurrections of Beric and Jon*, and I don't think either of those required blood sacrifice?

*And I can't be the only one hoping we get a little chat between those two on this subject in the next episode, can I?

In any case, I do agree with whoever said upthread that they don't expect Jon's resurrection to play out quite the same in the books. At the very least, I think it's a virtual guarantee that he wargs into Ghost, allowing him to retain his mind much better than Beric or Cat did.

In the show it's only Melisandre. But in the books there's also Moqorro. At the very least he has the maester from one of the Shield Islands killed by Victarion so that they can have favorable winds, the same thing Mel does with Alester Florent (she burns him) right before Stannis and his posse leave for Eastwatch. 

Jon's resurrection on the show was never going to play out like it will in the books because they thrashed Jon being a skinchanger, which is kind of important. I'll keep raging against that in silence. 

[FnkyChkn34]

16 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

. . . But when GRRM says Beric (and Jon by extension) are fire wights, I believe THAT, because it IS canon, whether or not the series chooses to share that information.

But is it?  Because the books haven't addressed Jon yet, and GRRM never actually said anything about Jon.  GRRM's comments are about Beric only, and I believe there's one major difference - Thoros can revive Beric immediately.  Please correct me if my memory is failing me, but Melissandre thought it didn't work and Jon still laid there "dead" for an unknown amount of time until he woke up later when alone.  So did the "Lord of Light" really resurrect him?  I don't know.

[Wulfsige]

I've sorta kinda thought that Jon's resurrection came about because of Shireen  being burned. I could be way off track.

[Blonde Gator]

30 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

In the show it's only Melisandre. But in the books there's also Moqorro. At the very least he has the maester from one of the Shield Islands killed by Victarion so that they can have favorable winds, the same thing Mel does with Alester Florent (she burns him) right before Stannis and his posse leave for Eastwatch. 

Jon's resurrection on the show was never going to play out like it will in the books because they thrashed Jon being a skinchanger, which is kind of important. I'll keep raging against that in silence. 

Here, come join me in the corner and we'll rage in silence together, and join a nice Dornish Red.  There are so many things the show missed, and that's (Stark kids all wargs) one of the most egregious, IMO.

[MissLucas]

19 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Please correct me if my memory is failing me, but Melissandre thought it didn't work and Jon still laid there "dead" for an unknown amount of time until he woke up later when alone.  So did the "Lord of Light" really resurrect him?  I don't know.

I've watched the scene the other day because there's some confusing editing: Melisandre does her shtick and it looks as if it's not working. One by one the bystanders leave (I think the first one is Tormund) followed by Melisandre. Last man standing is Davos who finally leaves the room and closes the door. The camera returns to Jon then to Ghost who seems to sleep, then suddenly lifts his head, we see Jon opening his eyes and starting to breathe - end credits roll. Next episode starts with a close up of Davos staring at something and we hear someone breathe heavily, then we see Jon getting up and freaking out. The show never bothered to explain what made Davos return but it seems clear that he immediately turned around once out of the room. Maybe he managed to hear Jon's ragged breath through a wooden door. Pretty good for someone who claims to be an old geezer.

(Ghost was added to the scene to fuel speculations that Jon had warged and the LoL had nothing to do with him coming back.)

[Blonde Gator]

36 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

But is it?  Because the books haven't addressed Jon yet, and GRRM never actually said anything about Jon.  GRRM's comments are about Beric only, and I believe there's one major difference - Thoros can revive Beric immediately.  Please correct me if my memory is failing me, but Melissandre thought it didn't work and Jon still laid there "dead" for an unknown amount of time until he woke up later when alone.  So did the "Lord of Light" really resurrect him?  I don't know.

If GRRM says so, it is, and although he only mentioned Beric as a "fire wight", IIRC, it was an answer to a question about Jon, which is typical GRRM, being sneaky.  He's had the end plot outlined for years....it's just the filling in the details that is causing him a six year case of agita.  The whole thing lit up the internet a couple of weeks ago, you can check out YouTube for many excellent videos by people who make a living on GOT stuff.

As for Jon, I don't think it mattered (time delay), because he was in the north, and basically his dead body suffered no deterioration.  (Unlike Catelyn, who floated in a warm river for days).  As for the LoL, we don't know for certain, it may be some kind of magic, but it's the most likely explanation at this point.  I still haven't figured out why Beric has been brought back seven times, but we haven't reached his end story yet, so we don't know that either. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Blonde Gator

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, MissLucas said:

I've watched the scene the other day because there's some confusing editing: Melisandre does her shtick and it looks as if it's not working. One by one the bystanders leave (I think the first one is Tormund) followed by Melisandre. Last man standing is Davos who finally leaves the room and closes the door. The camera returns to Jon then to Ghost who seems to sleep, then suddenly lifts his head, we see Jon opening his eyes and starting to breathe - end credits roll. Next episode starts with a close up of Davos staring at something and we hear someone breathe heavily, then we see Jon getting up and freaking out. The show never bothered to explain what made Davos return but it seems clear that he immediately turned around once out of the room. Maybe he managed to hear Jon's ragged breath through a wooden door. Pretty good for someone who claims to be an old geezer.

(Ghost was added to the scene to fuel speculations that Jon had warged and the LoL had nothing to do with him coming back.)

I agree with what you've written so much that I could swear I'd written it myself.  It's so nice to see someone else bothered by the fact that we distinctly leave Jon and Ghost alone at the end of the episode, and resume with Davos apparently there in the next.

[YaddaYadda]

17 minutes ago, Wulfsige said:

I've sorta kinda thought that Jon's resurrection came about because of Shireen  being burned. I could be way off track.

It's one interpretation, the show didn't go out of its way to flesh it out. Here's some hair, here are flames, chant chant chant, pretty please. I burned a kid with king's blood a day ago...

In the books, there are three people who attacked Jon, so they are as good as ashes. She's going to burn Bowen Marsh & Co. My thing with Shireen is that there seems to be foreshadowing that her grey scale is going to come back. So we'll see, but Shireen hitting the pyre with Bowen and his cronies won't be a shocking if she's got greyscale once more. 

13 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I agree with what you've written so much that I could swear I'd written it myself.  It's so nice to see someone else bothered by the fact that we distinctly leave Jon and Ghost alone at the end of the episode, and resume with Davos apparently there in the next.

I wondered about it myself, but it's hard to go there when the show has done nothing with that in the first place. Unless it's a nod to the book readers, someone who has never picked up a book wouldn't necessarily know that Jon is a skinchanger. and instead of Jon saying Ghost's name, he said Olly. Which honestly...

[Chris24601]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

But when GRRM says Beric (and Jon by extension) are fire wights, I believe THAT, because it IS canon, whether or not the series chooses to share that information.

The bolded I think is where the assumption is being made. Beric is clearly a fire wight in the books, but we have not actually seen the method by which Jon will be raised in the books so presuming that he'll just be another fire wight is a big assumption based on facts not in evidence. The show takes a lot of shortcuts and some of those make a mash out of Martin's cosmology/rules for magic and I think based on the books (ex. the same book Jon was killed opening with a rather detailed discussion of wargs and their "second life" and Mel's visions of Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again) there is an immensely strong case that Jon's resurrection on the show using JUST fire magic is one of those mash-making shortcuts.

Now you may be agreeing with me on this point, your response was a bit unclear in that regard, but the fact that you keep insisting on calling Jon a fire wight when that is not the case in the books (because he hasn't been resurrected yet one way or the other) nor on the show (because there isn't even the concept of fire wights on the show) implies that you don't.

That is the point I'm trying to clarify. That Jon is NOT a fire wight in either the books or on the show. Calling him one (and with some people using that to predict that he will expire again before the series ends) is presuming facts that are not actually in evidence.

[Misplaced]

On 8/16/2017 at 5:03 AM, Pogojoco said:

There is a melancholy that has fallen on me. It might be because the show is ending, but I'm finding it hard to like this show. I'm addicted to it and I still watch it, but there is a distinct lack of richness that fills in and expands the various brutal bits. It feels almost like all of their inspiration comes from Martin's work and when they are left to their own devices, it becomes hollow and a little pat.

I know I may be flamed as a heretic, but Martin's books 4 and 5, in my opinion, had a distinct lack of richness and the only things that filled in the various brutal bits of plot were the endless descriptions of food.  So I am thrilled to pieces that the show is moving forward, even IF (and maybe we can both agree on this) it needs some editing just as much as AFFC and ADWD did.  

[Blonde Gator]

2 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

The bolded I think is where the assumption is being made. Beric is clearly a fire wight in the books, but we have not actually seen the method by which Jon will be raised in the books so presuming that he'll just be another fire wight is a big assumption based on facts not in evidence. The show takes a lot of shortcuts and some of those make a mash out of Martin's cosmology/rules for magic and I think based on the books (ex. the same book Jon was killed opening with a rather detailed discussion of wargs and their "second life" and Mel's visions of Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man again) there is an immensely strong case that Jon's resurrection on the show using JUST fire magic is one of those mash-making shortcuts.

Now you may be agreeing with me on this point, your response was a bit unclear in that regard, but the fact that you keep insisting on calling Jon a fire wight when that is not the case in the books (because he hasn't been resurrected yet one way or the other) nor on the show (because there isn't even the concept of fire wights on the show) implies that you don't.

That is the point I'm trying to clarify. That Jon is NOT a fire wight in either the books or on the show. Calling him one (and with some people using that to predict that he will expire again before the series ends) is presuming facts that are not actually in evidence.

GRRM only let the "Beric is a fire wight" out of the bag a couple of weeks ago, it almost broke the internet.   Perhaps you're confusing Beric's (and Thoros's) flaming swords for being fire wights, as far as we know, Thoros has not died (yet), but he wields a sword alight with fire. 

"Fire wight" is new information.  As I said, fire wight is GRRM's term, and I believe he used it in reference to a DIFFERENT kind of wight than the ice wights....beings who are still breathing and thinking for themselves, unlike the dead thralls who must be animated....and therefore non-ice wights are ALL firewights, because we have this whole story wrapped up in a dichotomy of two opposing forces, which are ICE and FIRE (as the title of the series tells us).  You may of course interpret it differently, but I've followed GRRM for a long time, so this is how I see the author's use of the term.

And, for the record, I never predicted that Jon will "expire again".  I don't know where that comes from. 

[Blonde Gator]

6 minutes ago, Misplaced said:

I know I may be flamed as a heretic, but Martin's books 4 and 5, in my opinion, had a distinct lack of richness and the only things that filled in the various brutal bits of plot were the endless descriptions of food.  So I am thrilled to pieces that the show is moving forward, even IF (and maybe we can both agree on this) it needs some editing just as much as AFFC and ADWD did.  

Just so.  I have read that GRRM had really tried to figure out a way to "age up" his child characters, and couldn't do it, so he wrote a LOT of "gardner style" stuff to fill it all in.  He's doubled the pressure on himself by agreeing to the TV series (lucky us!).  Truly, I doubt he's ever going to finish the series, he's written himself into a corner of the garden from which there is no path to the finish line.  The show may be all we ever get in the way of conclusion and closure....although it does leave us the opportunity to imagine the ending we like best, as well.  *sigh*

BTW, (get out of the heretic corner, LOL).....I've always believed that Rickon's whole plot was a "Shaggy Dog tale", a plot without any purpose whatsoever.  My first clue was Rickon's direwolf's name, Shaggy Dog (RIP, you two!).  So GRRM's thousand named characters and multiple never-ending plot threads could never have been included in a TV series, even if it went on for 20 seasons.  We may find many more shaggy dog plots in the books, but we don't know right now.  And then there are all of the really cool underlying things that GRRM does, which the casual readers may never know, like the old (real) world meanings of character's names, etc.  Meaning within meaning, and so on.  

[Wulfsige]

Random thoughts...what's Euron going to think when he comes back to claim his prize from Cersai and she's enormously preggers with whatever she's incubating? Will she have gained lots of weight? Have swollen ankles, a really bad temper, hemorrhoids??

A nod to whoever mentioned Sam's adeptness as a thief. He also stole a wife from Craster and a child from the ice walkers. He's doing very well for himself.

[WebosFritos]

Eastwatch looked absolutely beautiful, In the credits and on the show. I loved the wonky stairways that climbed the Wall. The Wildlings and the Night's Watch who garrison the castle must get a lot of exercise. How many steps are there, Gilly?

I really liked that Dany got offended when Jon said that Drogon wasn't really "beautiful" and I loved that Jon got annoyed at Dany when she said he wasn't allowed to leave and completely missed her worried expression. 

I appreciate that the Wight Expedition didn't put on any hats because there are so many named characters going north that I probably would have trouble recognizing them otherwise. And am I wrong or were there some redshirts trailing behind the main group?

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, Blonde Gator said:

If GRRM says so, it is, and although he only mentioned Beric as a "fire wight", IIRC, it was an answer to a question about Jon, which is typical GRRM, being sneaky.  He's had the end plot outlined for years....it's just the filling in the details that is causing him a six year case of agita.  The whole thing lit up the internet a couple of weeks ago, you can check out YouTube for many excellent videos by people who make a living on GOT stuff.

As for Jon, I don't think it mattered (time delay), because he was in the north, and basically his dead body suffered no deterioration.  (Unlike Catelyn, who floated in a warm river for days).  As for the LoL, we don't know for certain, it may be some kind of magic, but it's the most likely explanation at this point.  I still haven't figured out why Beric has been brought back seven times, but we haven't reached his end story yet, so we don't know that either. 

Hmm.  This is the kind of stuff that makes me crazy.  I'm afraid I'm one of those people who requires absolute proof and since Martin chose not to provide that in this case, for whatever reason, in my mind his fire wight comments refer to Beric only. Until he puts something in writing that definitively classifies Jon, I am comfortable with my opinion.  

Jon is not a fire wight. ?

P.S. In the interest of total transparency, I'm also one of those people who has read some of the books and loves the show, but only participates in this forum.  I don't scour the web looking for all things GoT or GRRM, which of course informs my opinions. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by taurusrose

[s-k-s]

There's a throw-away line in one of the novels that Targ corpses could be  burnt in funeral pyre and bought back to life.  I always thought (still think, I guess) that in the books, Jon will be burnt in a pyre by the NW and come back to life, thus confirming his Targ ancestry.  

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, s-k-s said:

There's a throw-away line in one of the novels that Targ corpses could be  burnt in funeral pyre and bought back to life.  I always thought (still think, I guess) that in the books, Jon will be burnt in a pyre by the NW and come back to life, thus confirming his Targ ancestry.  

Very interesting.  Don't remember that at all -- of course I'm beginning to think I noticed a thimblefull of the details and have retained even less over the many years.

[Francie]

My several day after post-mortem on this episode.

Overall, this episode was rather disjointed and weak, storyline-wise and writing-wise. The actors saved more than a few what otherwise would have been mediocre scenes.

The Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger intrigue played out like a subplot from Gossip Girls or Pretty Little Liars (disclosure – I’ve never seen a full episode of either show) inserted into one of the more tense Sopranos episodes (Imagine Tony chopping up Ralphie in the bathtub and then cutting to Arya stalking Littlefinger in Winterfell’s halls).

This episode was a good showcase for Peter Dinklage, though. His hand wringing at Daenerys’s choice of introducing herself to Westerosians with a “bend the knee or die” ultimatum. And his scene with Conleth in which Varys reflects back on his standing up and enabling Aerys in his madness was a great moment for Conleth. It reminds of two instances where an underlying or close adviser stood up to his leader – Davos with freeing Gendry, and Jaime with killing the Mad King.

The writer’s favoring of Peter and Tyrion may explain the odd imbalance of the Jaime/Tyrion scene.  Nikolaj called out the dialogue, saying that at the time he asked show runners why Jaime couldn’t say something along the lines of “I know that Tywin hated you – why do you think I freed you?!” and get to the heart of his issue with Tyrion:  Once freed, Tyrion went and got payback against his father, and true reason Tyrion killed Tywin had to do with Tywin sleeping with his girlfriend and not his father’s lifelong distaste at his dwarfism.  I whole-heartedly concur. Tyrion’s bemoaning “Do you think I wanted to be born that way?” felt like a retread of a point that had been settled so long ago, especially when considering all the other baggage between the brothers. Jaime’s last two remaining children had died, and Tyrion wants to re-litigate the inherent unfairness or disadvantage of being born a dwarf? To a man who has always been his champion and who committed treason and risked his own to save Tyrion?  Badly played, Tyrion. 

Davos provided some comic relief with the gold cloaks, but not enough to make the scene memorable. That is exactly one of those moments where the acting elevated the scene above a bad Miami Vice plot (is that redundant?). And the scene was too full of plot conveniences. Tyrion doesn’t see the gold cloaks long before he walks down the steps?  Does Gendry really have to smash the two men to death? I realize that the show runners want us to know that Gendry is tough and can swing a hammer hard enough to kill. But murdering two men for doing their job doesn’t exactly endear me to Gendry.  It does give him a bit more in common with Arya, I guess, for whatever that’s worth.

Cersei telling Jaime of her pregnancy played like a cat toying with a mouse. Nikolaj’s reactions were wonderful. Jaime is so whipped, tentative and almost meek in asking who she’ll name as the father. Jaime’s shaking his head in disbelief coupled with almost, nearly breaking into a smile was heart-breaking. No one believes that Cersei will allow Jaime any true happiness with this baby.  For those who don’t believe she wasn’t lying to him outright to keep him in line, there’s the pesky business of her dangling a possible marriage with Euron.  She needs to keep that fire in the iron, and she’ll expect Jaime to fall in line. Any happiness he had was already cut short with her “Don’t betray me again” admonition.

Sansa is continuing on her seemingly overnight transition into an accomplished manager and leader. Is she suddenly becoming someone who is stronger than Tommen but gentler than Stannis? 

The whole Magnificent Seven framing of the Wight hunters was a great visual. Until you see the three or four red shirts behind them. Felt like a bit of a cheat to me. And, where is ghost?  And, no, any explanation that they blew the CGI budget on dragons is not an acceptable one.

All in all, this was the second weakest episode of the season, after that lackluster and pointless season opener. Dave Hill is not a very strong writer, far too prone to lazy jokes and reliance on basic tropes.  I find that as far as characterization goes, he glides on the surface or stays in shallow waters. I hope he’s not been tagged with much responsibility for the Season 8 scripts.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Francie

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

My several day after post-mortem on this episode.

Overall, this episode was rather disjointed and weak, storyline-wise and writing-wise. The actors saved more than a few what otherwise would have been mediocre scenes.

The Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger intrigue played out like a subplot from Gossip Girls or Pretty Little Liars (disclosure – I’ve never seen a full episode of either show) inserted into one of the more tense Sopranos episodes (Imagine Tony chopping up Ralphie in the bathtub and then cutting to Arya stalking Littlefinger in Winterfell’s halls).

This episode was a good showcase for Peter Dinklage, though. His hand wringing at Daenerys’s choice of introducing herself to Westerosians with a “bend the knee or die” ultimatum. And his scene with Conleth in which Varys reflects back on his standing up and enabling Aerys in his madness was a great moment for Conleth. It reminds of two instances where an underlying or close adviser stood up to his leader – Davos with freeing Gendry, and Jaime with killing the Mad King.

The writer’s favoring of Peter and Tyrion may explain the odd imbalance of the Jaime/Tyrion scene.  Nikolaj called out the dialogue, saying that at the time he asked show runners why Jaime couldn’t say something along the lines of “I know that Tywin hated you – why do you think I freed you?!” and get to the heart of his issue with Tyrion:  Once freed, Tyrion went and got payback against his father, and true reason Tyrion killed Tywin had to do with Tywin sleeping with his girlfriend and not his father’s lifelong distaste at his dwarfism.  I whole-heartedly concur. Tyrion’s bemoaning “Do you think I wanted to be bore that way?” felt like a retread of a point that had been settled so long ago, especially when considering all the other baggage between the brothers. Jaime’s last two remaining children had died, and Tyrion wants to re-litigate the inherent unfairness or disadvantage of being born a dwarf? To a man who has always been his champion and who committed treason and risked his own to save Tyrion?  Badly played, Tyrion. 

Davos provided some comic relief with the gold cloaks, but not enough to make the scene memorable. That is exactly one of those moments where the acting elevated the scene above a bad Miami Vice plot (is that redundant?). And the scene was too full of plot conveniences. Tyrion doesn’t see the gold cloaks long before he walks down the steps?  Does Gendry really have to smash the two men to death? I realize that the show runners want us to know that Gendry is tough and can swing a hammer hard enough to kill. But murdering two men for doing their job doesn’t exactly endear me to Gendry.  It does give him a bit more in common with Arya, I guess, for whatever that’s worth.

Cersei telling Jaime of her pregnancy played like a cat toying with a mouse. Nikolaj’s reactions were wonderful. Jaime is so whipped, tentative and almost meek in asking who she’ll name as the father. Jaime’s shaking his head in disbelief coupled with almost, nearly breaking into a smile was heart-breaking. No one believes that Cersei will allow Jaime any true happiness with this baby.  For those who don’t believe she wasn’t lying to him outright to keep him in line, there’s the pesky business of her dangling a possible marriage with Euron.  She needs to keep that fire in the iron, and she’ll expect Jaime to fall in line. Any happiness he had was already cut short with her “Don’t betray me again” admonition.

Sansa is continuing on her seemingly overnight transition into an accomplished manager and leader. Is she suddenly becoming someone who is stronger than Tommen but gentler than Stannis? 

The whole Magnificent Seven framing of the Wight hunters was a great visual. Until you see the three or four red shirts behind them. Felt like a bit of a cheat to me. And, where is ghost?  And, no, any explanation that they blew the CGI budget on dragons is not an acceptable one.

All in all, this was the second weakest episode of the season, after that lackluster and pointless season opener. Dave Hill is not a very strong writer, far too prone to lazy jokes and reliance on basic tropes.  I find that as far as characterization goes, he glides on the surface or stays in shallow waters. I hope he’s not been tagged with much responsibility for the Season 8 scripts.

I see some of which you point out, but I found the opening episode quite a reasonable table setting for this series to begin the season.

I was a bit taken aback by Jamie's seeming anger over Tywin's murder.  I never saw any of Tywin's children having any real emotional attachment to him, so Jamie being actually angry with Tyrion over the murder when he understood how Tywin had treated him his entire life took me back a bit.  Where I was really surprised in their meeting was the fact that Tyrion didn't make, and has never made any, allusion to the losses of Myrcella and Tommen.  Book and screen, Tyrion had genuine affection for his niece and nephew -- and he genuinely thought Dorne was putting Myrcella out of harm's way.  IMO Tyrion would be genuinely mourning two children he deeply cared about.  I wonder, does Jamie hold Tyrion at all responsible for Myrcella?

I agree, I could never understand Tyrion having headed down the path from the very top in the first place without checking down below.  Once they saw him as he began to approach the bottom it was too late to turn back, because it was certain turning back would draw even more attention to him.  The Gendry thing was a set up to the Gendry reboot -- he takes being a Barratheon seriously now.  You don't like it?  You'll take a hammer beating and accept it or die.

Cersei with Jamie and the pregnancy is clearly some fresh game, being enflamed by whatever Qyburn's up to as well.  Haven't decided yet if it's simply around the bend Cersei maliciously lying in wait for betrayal and enemies, real or imagined, or if Qyburn isn't master manipulating Cersei as well as Jamie for his own ends?

Sorry, but stronger than Tommen isn't exactly much of a bar.  I'd imagine young Samwell is only a couple episodes from managing to breach that hurdle himself.  Gentler than Stannis?  The man countenanced his own dear, sweet, beloved child to be burned at the stake in service of his attaining his goals.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Tikichick
correction to avoid confusion

[crowceilidh]

My feeling about Cersei's warning to Jaime was that she was telegraphing that the whole scene was a set-up to punish him (no, I don't know how) - right from Qyburn suggesting he could "do something" for her to the moment that she said, don't ever betray me again.

[Constantinople]

Tyrion didn't seem so squeamish about executing the slavers who rebelled against Daenerys.

He even lied to them saying 1 of the 3 must die even though 2 were executed.

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

Does Gendry really have to smash the two men to death? I realize that the show runners want us to know that Gendry is tough and can swing a hammer hard enough to kill. But murdering two men for doing their job doesn’t exactly endear me to Gendry.

I'm confident that's the only intended point of the scene, but it also demonstrates, in my opinion, that the highborn characters are too quick to say "You'll lose the people if you do this, that or the other" as if they have any idea what it's like to live among the people, and as if the people are some undifferentiated mass who all think the same.

The Gold Cloaks represent Cersei's royal authority, and Gendry, one of the few characters who's lived as commoner, had no problems beating their brains in.  So I think some of the characters should lay off the "Be nice, don't give into the dark side, peace out bro" schtick.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Constantinople
Left out Gendry's name

[Francie]

34 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Book and screen, Tyrion had genuine affection for his niece and nephew -- and he genuinely thought Dorne was putting Myrcella out of harm's way

Yes and no is my position on that.  I do think he was sincere when he said that to Cersei. At the same point, he was so caught up in the game to really see clearly on the topic though.  I think he convinced himself Myrcella would be safe there.  And, once the Battle of the Blackwater was over, it would have been far safer to bring her back. But Tyrion packed her up for the long-term. So she got used as his pawn. He should recognize and own that.

I've always wondered what Tyrion would have done if it was Varys or Littlefinger who ratted Tyrion out to Cersei.  Theon and the Greyjoys were already in revolt, so that should have been a non-starter. Littlefinger was well on his way to securing the deal with Lysa and Robin.  And how safe would Myrcella have been in that crazy woman's home, with that moon door.  Probably even more dangerous, Myrcella would have been in Littlefinger's clutches.  It's interesting that the option given to Pycelle seems to be the only one that could've gone through to fruition.

[TarotQueen]

25 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm confident that's the only intended point of the scene, but it also demonstrates, in my opinion, that the highborn characters are too quick to say "You'll lose the people if you do this, that or the other" as if they have any idea what it's like to live among the people, and as if the people are some undifferentiated mass who all think the same.

The Gold Cloaks represent Cersei's royal authority,one of the few characters who's lived as commoner, had no problems beating their brains in.  So I think some of the characters should lay off the "Be nice, don't give into the dark side, peace out bro" schtick.

ITA.  They had just taken bribes ... we can only imagine how they might be shaking down city tradesmen like Gentry or merchants ... whatever sort of leading-up-to-middle-class exists in KL.  

[Tikichick]

31 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I'm confident that's the only intended point of the scene, but it also demonstrates, in my opinion, that the highborn characters are too quick to say "You'll lose the people if you do this, that or the other" as if they have any idea what it's like to live among the people, and as if the people are some undifferentiated mass who all think the same.

The Gold Cloaks represent Cersei's royal authority,one of the few characters who's lived as commoner, had no problems beating their brains in.  So I think some of the characters should lay off the "Be nice, don't give into the dark side, peace out bro" schtick.

 

3 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

ITA.  They had just taken bribes ... we can only imagine how they might be shaking down city tradesmen like Gentry or merchants ... whatever sort of leading-up-to-middle-class exists in KL.  

I'm getting the idea you guys weren't card carrying members of the Janos Slynt Fan Club?

ETA in regards to their taking bribes, their comments to Davos indicate it's been a longstanding tradition.  Davos' expectation, despite being away from smuggling for many years, indicates it's a well established practice.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Tikichick
Added detail

[Blonde Gator]

39 minutes ago, Francie said:

Yes and no is my position on that.  I do think he was sincere when he said that to Cersei. At the same point, he was so caught up in the game to really see clearly on the topic though.  I think he convinced himself Myrcella would be safe there.  And, once the Battle of the Blackwater was over, it would have been far safer to bring her back. But Tyrion packed her up for the long-term. So she got used as his pawn. He should recognize and own that.

I've always wondered what Tyrion would have done if it was Varys or Littlefinger who ratted Tyrion out to Cersei.  Theon and the Greyjoys were already in revolt, so that should have been a non-starter. Littlefinger was well on his way to securing the deal with Lysa and Robin.  And how safe would Myrcella have been in that crazy woman's home, with that moon door.  Probably even more dangerous, Myrcella would have been in Littlefinger's clutches.  It's interesting that the option given to Pycelle seems to be the only one that could've gone through to fruition.

Tyrion made the match when he was the Hand in KL, when Tywin was still out fighting Robb & the Northmen.  After the battle of the Blackwater, Oberon came to King's Landing, for the wedding of Joffrey and Maergary.  He met with Tyrion (outside the brothel), and reassured Tyrion that "we don't hurt little girls in Dorne".  Later that season (I think I have the timing of this correct)....Oberon walked with Cersei on the coastal walks of King's Landing, and Cersei asked Oberon to take a boat back to Dorne for Marcella, and Oberon again repeated that they don't hurt little girls in Dorne.

After Oberon's death, Ellaria Sand went all stabby, which was totally the opposite of her book character.  bMarcella got caught up in a plot to place her on the Iron Throne, by the (non-show) heir of Doran's, and she was injured, not killed.  But Tyrion's decision to send Myrcella to Dorne, when he was the Hand,  was a sound one....a prospective marriage to unite the Seven Kingdoms and bring Dorne into the heart of the capital.  It was a good move, for all of the right reasons, at the time.  No way Tyrion could have forseen the ugly consequences.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Tyrion didn't seem so squeamish about executing the slavers who rebelled against Daenerys.

He even lied to them saying 1 of the 3 must die even though 2 were executed.

Tyrion  has no problems killing people. Hell, he was arguing for Dany in his talks with Varys. His problem lays with doing it when it's not necessary / not politically smart to do so.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Oscirus

[Francie]

3 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

No way Tyrion could have forseen the ugly consequences.

Disagree completely. He knew how much the Dornish hated the Lannisters.  It didn't need a royal committing the assassination either. Cersei understood what inherent danger Myrcella was in, Oberyn's reassurance notwithstanding. Tyrion wouldn't have even known about that assurance to Cersei. What he did know? Oberyn stabbing a Lannister soldier just for singing Rains of Castamere. 

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

Disagree completely. He knew how much the Dornish hated the Lannisters.  It didn't need a royal committing the assassination either. Cersei understood what inherent danger Myrcella was in, Oberyn's reassurance notwithstanding. Tyrion wouldn't have even known about that assurance to Cersei. What he did know? Oberyn stabbing a Lannister soldier just for singing Rains of Castamere. 

I wonder, would Cersei have felt on such high alert about Myrcella if she didn't have the prophecy?

[mac123x]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

The Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger intrigue played out like a subplot from Gossip Girls or Pretty Little Liars (disclosure – I’ve never seen a full episode of either show)

I have seen PLL (yes, that says something about my taste in television that's none too flattering).  Your description is spot on:  Littlefinger (A) leading Arya (Aria) and Sansa (Hanna) around by the nose.  I'm concerned that the hack writing will wind up with Arya violently confronting Sansa and Brienne will have to fight her for real this time.  Because it'd look cool, not because it'd be at all interesting.

2 hours ago, Francie said:

Tyrion doesn’t see the gold cloaks long before he walks down the steps? 

I'll have to watch again, but I got the impression he did see them, stopped to consider his options (run, hide, fight) and figured he was best off trying to bull right past them acting in a way that would cause the least suspicion.  He should have changed clothes into something lest conspicuous, though I'll give him credit for at least not wearing the Hand of the Queen pin.

56 minutes ago, Francie said:

I've always wondered what Tyrion would have done if it was Varys or Littlefinger who ratted Tyrion out to Cersei.

Myrcella was always bound for Dorne regardless of who turned out to be the mole.  Tyrion actually sent a scroll to Doran Martell; the propositions he floated to Varys and Littlefinger were lies.  Cercei confronted Tyrion with "you're not selling my daughter to Dorne" which happened to be the truth.  If Varys or Littlefinger ratted him out, she would have confronted him with "You're not selling my daughter to the Vale!" he would have responded with "no, but I am going to send her to Dorne where she'll be safer than here".

[Blonde Gator]

6 minutes ago, Francie said:

Disagree completely. He knew how much the Dornish hated the Lannisters.  It didn't need a royal committing the assassination either. Cersei understood what inherent danger Myrcella was in, Oberyn's reassurance notwithstanding. Tyrion wouldn't have even known about that assurance to Cersei. What he did know? Oberyn stabbing a Lannister soldier just for singing Rains of Castamere. 

Oberon hated Lannister soldiers, and Tywin Lannister, not children...Oberon didn't hate Tyrion either.  In fact, the Dornish culture reveres children, to the point that bastard children were never stigmatized, rather, they are celebrated, as Oberon threw in Cersei's face at the royal wedding, when Cersei turned her nose up at Ellaria Sand.  Prince Doran's sole joy in life was watching the children relax and play in the Water Gardens at Sun Spear.  Prince Doran took the step of jailing the war-mongering Sand Snakes after Oberon's death, as well as his own daughter and heir, for trying to overthrow the plot to place Myrcella on the throne after Joffrey & Oberon's deaths. 

The death of Myrcella is on the writers, not Tyrion.....in fact, the entire Dorne storyline was blown from the get-go.  The only thing we got from Dorne was "Bad Pussies", which was pretty bloody disgusting.  Judged by the customs laid out in the books (sending affianced children to the homes of their intended) was standard custom, and the political alliance to ensure Dorne stayed in the fold and allied with King's Landing was pretty brilliant, inasmuch as the War of the Five Kings was in full throttle at the time. 

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, mac123x said:

I have seen PLL (yes, that says something about my taste in television that's none too flattering).  Your description is spot on:  Littlefinger (A) leading Arya (Aria) and Sansa (Hanna) around by the nose.  I'm concerned that the hack writing will wind up with Arya violently confronting Sansa and Brienne will have to fight her for real this time.  Because it'd look cool, not because it'd be at all interesting.

I'll have to watch again, but I got the impression he did see them, stopped to consider his options (run, hide, fight) and figured he was best off trying to bull right past them acting in a way that would cause the least suspicion.  He should have changed clothes into something lest conspicuous, though I'll give him credit for at least not wearing the Hand of the Queen pin.

Myrcella was always bound for Dorne regardless of who turned out to be the mole.  Tyrion actually sent a scroll to Doran Martell; the propositions he floated to Varys and Littlefinger were lies.  Cercei confronted Tyrion with "you're not selling my daughter to Dorne" which happened to be the truth.  If Varys or Littlefinger ratted him out, she would have confronted him with "You're not selling my daughter to the Vale!" he would have responded with "no, but I am going to send her to Dorne where she'll be safer than here".

I absolutely hope you are very, very wrong.  Because I can see how it would potentially eliminate in one fell swoop two fearsome warriors likely to throw down for Sansa without hesitation, I now have to accept it does have the potential to play out on screen.

You will forgive me if I don't thank you.  I must go and do some grumbling now.

[Oscirus]

14 minutes ago, mac123x said:

 

Myrcella was always bound for Dorne regardless of who turned out to be the mole.  Tyrion actually sent a scroll to Doran Martell; the propositions he floated to Varys and Littlefinger were lies.  Cercei confronted Tyrion with "you're not selling my daughter to Dorne" which happened to be the truth.  If Varys or Littlefinger ratted him out, she would have confronted him with "You're not selling my daughter to the Vale!" he would have responded with "no, but I am going to send her to Dorne where she'll be safer than here".

Yea, I believe tyrion already knew pycelle was the mole. Tyrion tested the other two because  he wanted to start working with them. In other words tyrion  wanted to make sure that  Dorne was the only place  she heard about. 

[mac123x]

30 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I absolutely hope you are very, very wrong.  Because I can see how it would potentially eliminate in one fell swoop two fearsome warriors likely to throw down for Sansa without hesitation, I now have to accept it does have the potential to play out on screen.

You will forgive me if I don't thank you.  I must go and do some grumbling now.

Whoa whoa whoa, no grumbling required! :-)  I'm just speculating that Arya and Brienne would have to fight,  but not necessarily to the death.  Waaay up thread I guessed that this could go two ways, either Arya confronts Sansa and they yell at each other, or Arya sees through LF's manipulation and starts working with Sansa to bring him down.  This is just a third option to contemplate, depending on how hacky you think the writers are.

 

Personally, I hope that Arya was allowing herself to be led around by LF, mainly because if she was serious about snooping she would have used one of her bag-o-faces tricks to do it incognito.  I just don't give the writers credit for being that clever though.  I think they'll go for the trite confrontation scene because of angst and drama, and also because heaven forbid that a hero tricks a villain.

 

Do we know for certain that someone has to die in order for Arya to wear their face?  I mean, there was that montage back in S5 where one of the No Ones drank poison then Arya removed several faces from the corpse, including her own, so it's possible faces can be borrowed non-lethally, right?  I'd love to see a scene with Sansa sidling up to LF and getting him to spill the beans, then whipping off her face to reveal Arya getting stabby on him.

Edited August 17, 2017 by mac123x