S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[Minneapple]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Considering that Dany rode a dragon saddle less and held on to him with all the moves he did and Jamie was taking on Dothraki soldiers fighting with one hand, I'd say that all the main players in that battle got a healthy dose of plot armor.

Yeah. Almost everyone who is still alive has some kind of plot armor. Arya had a giant stomach wound and ran all over Braavos and won a swordfight against the waif. Jon actually died and came back to life and we're not clear as to the reasons for that. Bran was carted around on a sled and other people died for him. At this point it's a little cartoony that any of them are alive.

[Francie]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Dickon Tarly said he didn't know fighting would smell so much and Bronn asked if he didn't know men shit themselves when thety die.  Reminded me of this quote from Robert in S1:

 

Robert Baratheon : Quick one. Lucky for you. Mine was some Tarly boy at the Battle of Summerhall. My horse took an arrow so I was on foot, slogging through the mud. He came running at me, this dumb high-born lad, thinking he could end the rebellion with the single swing of his sword. I knocked him down with the hammer. Gods, I was strong then. Caved in his breastplate. Probably shattered every rib he had. Stood over him, hammer in the air. Right before I brought it down he shouted, "Wait ! Wait." They never tell you how they all shit themselves. They don't put that part in the songs

Also from Robert in season 1:

"Only a fool would meet the Dorthraki in an open field."

Or something like that -- going from memory. 

[spottedreptile]

33 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I thought the smartest "people" at the battle were those three horses:

I loved the battle for its drama and emotion; but it was mixed tactically. According to Hollywood, cavalry charges can always break up infantry squares, because Hollywood horses are always willing to impale themselves on lances and crash through barriers of sharp points. In real life this doesn't happen. Horses will break each side and shy away from the squares and no horse is stupid enough to commit suicide on a row of spears. The idea of Dany using Drogon (artillery) to break up the square was good, and once a square is broken you can then use your cavalry to smash the infantry sideways. But I suppose it always looks good to have a cavalry charge a la Gandalf.

Liked Bronn's Bard the Bowman moment, but unlike Bard, he didn't slay Smaug outright, and let him back in the fight. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by spottedreptile

[SimoneS]

2 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

And Aegon burned the lords who didn't bend the knee, while forging his kingdom. If you're a lord who's either too stupid or proud to not save yourself when faced with a dragon rider you deserve your fate.

Yeah, I am not shedding any tears for any of those lords who could have saved their people by going to Daenerys when she called them to Dragonstone. They had their chance to pledge their loyalty and avoid their fates. 

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

Holding a woman up to a standard of humanity is not misogyny. Frankly, it's insulting to those who want women to have qual rights to play such a card. 

Dany doesn't get a pass because she's a woman. 

The point was not that she gets a pass, but that she's being held to a different standard than other figures in Westerosi history.  The notion that she shouldn't use the dragons is inconsistent with the whole history of her dynasty.  Aegon I used the dragons and won the Seven Kingdoms, and is remembered as a great king.

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, doram said:

Cersei setting off a medieval bomb on the Vatican equivalent didn't stop peeps like Tarly from allying with her. 

Nor did Aegon pretty much bullying the 7 Kingdoms with his "Kneel or burn" war strategy, stop him from being King and being regarded as a remarkable man. 

 

Again, Misogyny 101. 

Robert was able to get his enemies to side with him in the middle of a war just by talking to him. Should I hold Dany up to the same standards and say that she's worse than him because she has to use her dragon to do so?

Edited August 7, 2017 by Oscirus

[Francie]

1 minute ago, doram said:

Cersei setting off a medieval bomb on the Vatican equivalent didn't stop peeps like Tarly from allying with her. 

Nor did Aegon pretty much bullying the 7 Kingdoms with his "Kneel or burn" war strategy, stop him from being King and being regarded as a remarkable man. 

 

Again, Misogyny 101. 

Who holds Aegon as a remarkable man?  He was a great enough warrior to get 6 of the 7 kingdoms to kneel, but I see no one say, "Hey, you know who was a great leader? Aegon the Conqueror."

No one's erecting statues to him or calling him the Father of their Country. They recognize that he forced their forefathers to bend their knees, and there appears to be begrudging respect. But no one comments on him fondly. 

[spottedreptile]

6 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

If you're a lord who's either too stupid or proud to not save yourself when faced with a dragon rider you deserve your fate.

Exactly what Tyrion was saying!

[Tesla]

I thinkmy favorite line of the episode was Bran to Littlefinger, quoting him back to himself with the "Chaos is a ladder" and seeing the comprehension dawn on LF.  I just wish the line didn't have to be delivered by the talking block of wood that Bran has become; it lessens the impact a bit. 

[MrWhyt]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

Cersei setting off a medieval bomb on the Vatican equivalent didn't stop peeps like Tarly from allying with her. 

and they know that she set off the wildfire?

[Francie]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

The point was not that she gets a pass, but that she's being held to a different standard than other figures in Westerosi history.  The notion that she shouldn't use the dragons is inconsistent with the whole history of her dynasty.  Aegon I used the dragons and won the Seven Kingdoms, and is remembered as a great king.

Any citations to people calling Aegon "a great king," you'd like to share?

This reminds me so much of George and his comments about what makes a great king, and that in Lord of the Rings, they just left eh story with whoever was in charge at the end being a great king. But they didn't say how he was great. They didn't describe his tax plan or how he treated his people. 

Aegon was the same. Anyone comparing Aegon and Daenerys are comparing two conquerors. Not two rulers. 

[SimoneS]

5 minutes ago, Francie said:

Who holds Aegon as a remarkable man?  He was a great enough warrior to get 6 of the 7 kingdoms to kneel, but I see no one say, "Hey, you know who was a great leader? Aegon the Conqueror."

No one's erecting statues to him or calling him the Father of their Country. They recognize that he forced their forefathers to bend their knees, and there appears to be begrudging respect. But no one comments on him fondly. 

Well, in real life people praise William the Conqueror. He was brutal and vicious as they come. He makes Daenerys look like saint. Yet he is credited in civilizing the Anglo-Saxons and creating modern day England. He ruled for around 21 years. He is the reason that name "William" is so popular among the English. Daenerys is following in his footsteps. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by SimoneS

[SeanC]

Just now, Francie said:

Any citations to people calling Aegon "a great king," you'd like to share?

Pretty much everyone?

Quote

Aegon was the same. Anyone comparing Aegon and Daenerys are comparing two conquerors. Not two rulers. 

Aegon did rule.  Indeed, he ruled the Seven Kingdoms longer than anyone except his grandson Jaehaerys I.

[Maximum Taco]

1 minute ago, MrWhyt said:

and they know that she set off the wildfire?

Hot Pie knows. So I'm assuming Randyll Tarly probably knows.

Unless you somehow think Hot Pie is more well informed then a lord of  the Reach.

[Francie]

10 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

 

And Aegon burned the lords who didn't bend the knee, while forging his kingdom. If you're a lord who's either too stupid or proud to not save yourself when faced with a dragon rider you deserve your fate.

Some people believe in a higher principle. Like Mance Rader. 

You are comparing Daenerys to Zod from Superman II now, yes? 

[domina89]

Random question: Why isn't the sigil a Lannister lion on top of King's Landing in the opening credits? There are no Baratheons left, yet the stag still remains there. 

[SeanC]

Just now, Maximum Taco said:

Hot Pie knows. So I'm assuming Randyll Tarly probably knows.

Unless you somehow think Hot Pie is more well informed then a lord of  the Reach.

Randyl Tarly absolutely knows.  He referred to Cersei's ability to destroy her enemies when talking with Jaime.

[Francie]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Pretty much everyone?

Aegon did rule.  Indeed, he ruled the Seven Kingdoms longer than anyone except his grandson Jaehaerys I.

I'll just settle for one quote -- or two, if you don't mind. 

And longevity doesn't equal a great king. What, specfically, made Aegon a great king?  

"What makes a great king?"

~Tywin Lannister, Season 4

Edited August 7, 2017 by Francie

[SimoneS]

Just now, domina89 said:

Random question: Why isn't the sigil a Lannister lion on top of King's Landing in the opening credits? There are no Baratheons left, yet the stag still remains there. 

I think because the Baratheons will reappear.

[Pogojoco]

Just now, domina89 said:

Random question: Why isn't the sigil a Lannister lion on top of King's Landing in the opening credits? There are no Baratheons left, yet the stag still remains there. 

Cersei's only claim to the throne is that she's the wife/mother of Baratheon kings. I think the credits are just acknowledging that. 

 

Also, Gendry's massive muscles from rowing say "what's up?" hahahahaha

[SimoneS]

Just now, Francie said:

Longevity doesn't equal a great king. What, specfically, made Aegon a great king?  

"What makes a great king?"

~Tywin Lannister, Season 4

You are quoting Tywin Lannister, one of the worse people in the show ever. LOL!

[MrWhyt]

4 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Hot Pie knows. So I'm assuming Randyll Tarly probably knows.

He knows this? or is it what he's heard? People "know" that 9/11 was an inside job, what proof has been offered to the populace of the 7 kingdoms that Cercei was behind the destruction of the great sept?

Edited August 7, 2017 by MrWhyt

[RobertDeSneero]

Jon Snow should offer to bend the knee after the White Walkers are defeated, just like Cersei told Euron he would marry her after she wins the war.  Jon and Dany should bone before finding out they are related.  Then, Dany can be "whatever, it's just sex" and Jon can feel super guilty and brood about it.  Then, go back and have more sex.

Davos is a married man who never had a daughter.  He seems the sort who would latch on to a potentially vulnerable young female because he imagines what it would be like to have someone like her as a daughter.

Who kills Littlefinger?  You'd think Arya or Sansa.  Maybe even Jon Snow.  I could see them pushing Bran as having died at the cave but eventually showing the three-eyed raven still has a little Bran in him by having him kill Littlefinger, despite having given up the dagger.  Or, I could see the White Walkers coming to Winterfell and LF trying to bargain with them, only to be killed/converted.

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Pretty much everyone?

Aegon did rule.  Indeed, he ruled the Seven Kingdoms longer than anyone except his grandson Jaehaerys I.

Yes, by fear, Dany;s already stated that she doesn't want to rule by fear.  

Speaking of which, how well did that ruling by fear stuff work for her in Mereen?

[britesongs]

25 minutes ago, dbell1 said:

A thought I had about Bran. When he broke from his Three Eyed Raven training, people he loved died. Hodor, the original Raven, the children of the forest, and even Summer. Bran found out he was the reason Hodor "hodor'd" himself. He let the Night King touch him and caused all kinds of chaos in the sacred place.

He might be deliberately choosing to wall off his emotions to become the Raven and try and save his family. Because when he tries to stay Brandon Stark, people he cares for die because of him and his gift.

To be the Raven, he can't stay a Stark.

I don't have a problem with him walling off his emotions and renouncing his Stark name to fully embrace being the three-eyed raven, but I don't see how it would be in response to things that have happened and some guilt over his emotions or his identity as a Stark. How did any of those events relate to him being Brandon Stark and having feelings? He let the Night King touch him because he's a colossal dumbass and thought he knew better than the previous three-eyed raven. THAT'S what he should feel guilty for. 

Can I trade Bran for another Stark? Maybe Robb? I'd love to have Robb back. Still mad about his death. But frankly, I'd rather take Mute Rickon over Bran at this point.

[SeanC]

Just now, Francie said:

Longevity doesn't equal a great king. What, specfically, made Aegon a great king?  

The ability to merge a bunch of different realms into one polity is a pretty huge feat of statesmanship, most obviously.  Indeed, successful empire-building is one of the most obvious feats we use to assess statesmen in this sort of system.  If he had conquered and then failed at governing, he wouldn't be nearly as well-thought-of.

[Francie]

10 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The point was not that she gets a pass, but that she's being held to a different standard than other figures in Westerosi history.  The notion that she shouldn't use the dragons is inconsistent with the whole history of her dynasty.  Aegon I used the dragons and won the Seven Kingdoms, and is remembered as a great king.

And I am challenging the notion that Aegon was considered a "great king." So, as you can see, I am holding each to the the same standard. 

In fact, I draw many paraellels. Dany is no better than Aegon. A foreign invader coming in to conquer a land. 

[deedee]

Poor Meera must have been thinking, "I dragged this asshole all over a frozen tundra, and NOW someone invents an all terrain wheelchair!"

[GrailKing]

47 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Not in those exact words, but he pretty much told her not to use her dragons otherwise she'd be no better than the people currently sitting on the iron throne.

He said if she used them to burn down castles and cities, causing innocent deaths, she be more of the same, not different.

[Maximum Taco]

4 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

He know's this? or is it what he's heard? People "know" that 9/11 was an inside job, what proof has been offered to the populace of the 7 kingdoms that Cercei was behind the destruction of the great sept?

He knows it. It seems to be fairly common knowledge, and there aren't a lot of alternative theories out there. Just because he hasn't verified it himself doesn't mean he doesn't know it. You ask Hot Pie "Who burned down the Sept of Baelor?" he's gonna answer "Cersei"

I for instance know that it's really cold in Antarctica. I don't need to verify this knowledge with first hand experience. I'm comfortable saying I know it to be a true fact based on other people telling me, and nobody disputing it.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[SeanC]

Just now, Oscirus said:

Yes, by fear, Dany;s already stated that she doesn't want to rule by fear.  

Aegon didn't rule by fear.  Or not solely, anyway, since all monarchs need to let people know they won't brook challenge.  He cultivated the people's love and the support of his nobles, generally with success.

Quote

Speaking of which, how well did that ruling by fear stuff work for her in Mereen?

Pretty well, since that was how she resolved the situation.

[MadMouse]

Just now, Francie said:

Some people believe in a higher principle. Like Mance Rader. 

You are comparing Daenerys to Zod from Superman II now, yes? 

How many people have died for the principles of not burning the Red Keep?

[SeanC]

Just now, Francie said:

And I am challenging the notion that Aegon was considered a "great king." So, as you can see, I am holding each to the the same standard. 

In fact, I draw many paraellels. Dany is no better than Aegon. A foreign invader coming in to conquer a land. 

As opposed to the homegrown warlords currently running it?

[that one guy]

13 minutes ago, Francie said:

Here's the important distinction that has yet to be addressed by anyone in support of Dany -- her "enemies" are the very people she wants to rule.

She's not defending anyone. She's not Robb Stark, frantic for the return of his father and sisters.  She's not Jon Snow who is called into battle by Ramsey Bolton. She's offensively attacking. She's come into a country that she hasn't set foot in since she was a baby, all because of some claimed birthright. And she's killing masses of its citizens. In her own mind, her citizens. 

She believes herself entitled to rule Westeros, and to her that justifies her killing any Westerosi who have a different opinion. She is a foreign invading conquerer, no different than Aegon 300 years ago.  

This is true, but a bit devoid of context. Westeros has been in chaos for years, and winter is coming. The land is desperately in need of stable government, as soon as possible. In a way, Drogon is a metaphor, Hobbes' Leviathan made fire and flesh. It's like Jaime said about his sister - when the people are finally living in peace and stability, are they really going to question how it was done?

Aegon initially faced a similar situation. He was invited in by Storm King Argillac the Arrogant, with whom he'd fought side by side in the Disputed lands. They had a falling out when Aegon refused to marry Argillac's daughter, and suggested she marry his bastard half brother Orys Baratheon instead. But the war between Argillac and Harren the Black had devastated the Riverlands and people were starving, etc. Aegon fried a bunch of knights and nobles, and brought peace. To the common people (outside of Dorne), he would have been a Big Damn Hero.

Come to think of it, Dany was also invited in at first, though her allies are dead now. Yara and Theon sailed halfway around the world, unbidden, to get her and bring her back.

[LanceM]

"They won't obey you, unless they fear you"   -Olenna Tyrell

[Francie]

Just now, SeanC said:

The ability to merge a bunch of different realms into one polity is a pretty huge feat of statesmanship, most obviously.  Indeed, successful empire-building is one of the most obvious feats we use to assess statesmen in this sort of system.  If he had conquered and then failed at governing, he wouldn't be nearly as well-thought-of.

You are assuming the premise of your statement as fact. You're now concluding that he was "well thought of." Who thinks of him so well? Just name one character who said -- "You know who was a really great king -- that Aegon I. Best king we ever had." I'm not greedy, I'll settle for "Third best king we ever had."  Fifth?  How about someone even saying, "Hey, at least he wasn't Maeger the Cruel or Aerys II." 

He's thought of as a conqueror, not a ruler. 

[MrWhyt]

Just now, Maximum Taco said:

He knows it. It seems to be fairly common knowledge, and there aren't a lot of alternative theories out there. Just because he hasn't verified it himself doesn't mean he doesn't know it. You ask Hot Pie "Who burned down the Sept of Baelor?" he's gonna answer "Cersei"

I for instance know that it's really cold in Antarctica. I don't need to verify this knowledge with first hand experience. I'm comfortable saying I know it to be a true fact based on other people telling me.

yes because other people have been to antarctica to report back to other people who reported back to other people, who wrote in books and so on and so on.

Common knowledge isn't fact. To ask why Tarly would side with Cercei when he "knows" that she blew up the sept is assuming he actually knows it to be fact.

Alternative theory: A terrible accident involving a lost cache of wildfire.

[SeanC]

Just now, Francie said:

You are assuming the premise of your statement as fact. You're now concluding that he was "well thought of." Who thinks of him so well? Just name one character who said -- "You know who was a really great king -- that Aegon I. Best king we ever had." I'm not greedy, I'll settle for "Third best king we ever had."  Fifth?  How about someone even saying, "Hey, at least he wasn't Maeger the Cruel or Aerys II." 

He's thought of as a conqueror, not a ruler. 

The conquest was the splashiest part of his reign, so obviously that gets talked about the most, much in the same way that the Norman Conquest is mostly about Hastings.

Aegon is regularly cited as one of the great monarchs.  Prince Valarr, for instance, says his father Baelor Breakspear would have been the greatest monarch since Aegon I.

[Lemuria]

Quote

The point was not that she gets a pass, but that she's being held to a different standard than other figures in Westerosi history. 

Because that's the standard she's claiming.  Dany holds herself out as someone who is an anti-Cersei and an anti-Aegon.  We know that neither Cersei nor Aegon particularly care (or cared) about the ordinary people.  Certainly, nobody expects that from Cersei.  But if Dany claims to be their champion, then she has to play the part.  If she acts like a Cersei or a Tywin or an Aerys or an Aegon, then she probably will be judged more harshly because she led them to believe she was something different.

[Maximum Taco]

Just now, MrWhyt said:

yes because other people have been to antarctica to report back to other people who reported back to other people, who wrote in books and so on and so on.

Common knowledge isn't fact. To ask why Tarly would side with Cercei when he "knows" that she blew up the sept is assuming he actually knows it to be fact.

Alternative theory: A terrible accident involving a lost cache of wildfire.

Nobody in the show has voiced that alternative theory though, you just made it up.

Everyone seems to believe it's Cersei who burned the sept down.

Not even Cersei seems to be disputing the fact that it's her who burned down the sept.

[GrailKing]

49 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

The difference is that while soldiers of course have families, as do civilians, they still chose to join the army of their respective House and as soldiers, they have an expectation that they may be called on to kill others--possibly including civilians--or to die in battle.  Westeros is a harsh place and I think people will understand more using extreme force against an opponent's army than against a city's civilian population.

They don't really get to chose, many are farmers or trades people and pledge fealty  as Arrya found out with the Lannister soldiers in the Riverlands.

[spottedreptile]

10 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Well, in real life people praise William the Conqueror. He was brutal and vicious as they come. He makes Daenerys look like saint. Yet he is credited in civilizing the Anglo-Saxons and creating modern day England.

Praise admire respect yes. Like, no. The North remembered for as long as it could William's brutal treatment of them during the Harrying. That bleeds into the culture and never really goes away. William was a great conqueror and an efficient ruler, but he wasn't remembered fondly by the English. They set their teeth and endured him, as one did in those days. Kings were admired for being tough, as that meant they could fight their enemies, but not for unnecessary torture and sadism for those who didn't "bend the knee" or pay their taxes. 

[MrWhyt]

3 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Nobody in the show has voiced that alternative theory though, you just made it up.

Everyone seems to believe it's Cersei who burned the sept down.

Not even Cersei seems to be disputing the fact that it's her who burned down the sept.

Cersei did in last episode when discussing it with the representative of the Iron Bank

Edited August 7, 2017 by MrWhyt

[RedheadZombie]

39 minutes ago, dbell1 said:

A thought I had about Bran. When he broke from his Three Eyed Raven training, people he loved died. Hodor, the original Raven, the children of the forest, and even Summer. Bran found out he was the reason Hodor "hodor'd" himself. He let the Night King touch him and caused all kinds of chaos in the sacred place.

He might be deliberately choosing to wall off his emotions to become the Raven and try and save his family. Because when he tries to stay Brandon Stark, people he cares for die because of him and his gift.

To be the Raven, he can't stay a Stark.

This makes great sense, but it just seems so abrupt.  In last season's finale, Bran is normal Bran.  I believe he even refers to Benjen as "Uncle" when they're dropped off at the Wall.  Yet this season he's suddenly emotionless.  Which means the change occurred off camera, which is always a cheaper way to do things.

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Pretty well, since that was how she resolved the situation.

,and it only took foreigners to come in there, out the terrorist group that she caused and for her to finally leave to resolve said situation.  Impressive.

[Constantinople]

15 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

They are still the opposing army. Nobody ever won a war by not fighting the enemy.

True, but I don't see much if any difference between torching civilian conscripts with dragonfire and torchi ng servants in the Red Keep

[Oscirus]

7 minutes ago, LanceM said:

"They won't obey you, unless they fear you"   -Olenna Tyrell

If you're listening to the lady who caused her family's downfall, then you're listening to the wrong person.

[SeanC]

Just now, Oscirus said:

,and it only took foreigners to come in there, out the terrorist group that she caused and for her to finally leave to resolve said situation.  Impressive.

Dany "caused" the terrorist group by freeing slaves.  Are you saying she shouldn't have ended slavery?

[Francie]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The conquest was the splashiest part of his reign, so obviously that gets talked about the most, much in the same way that the Norman Conquest is mostly about Hastings.

Aegon is regularly cited as one of the great monarchs.  Prince Valarr, for instance, says his father Baelor Breakspear would have been the greatest monarch since Aegon I.

Regularly cited by whom and when?  I'm just asking for one example. 

For instance, I can tell you that Arya admires one of Aegon's sister wives.  Absolutely worships her, as we saw from her conversation with Tywin about her. But she admires her because she was a great warrior.

That's what I'm asking. Not "everyone knows" or "I'm sure it's said somewhere or other." 

[SeanC]

Just now, Francie said:

Regularly cited by whom and when?  I'm just asking for one example. 

I just gave you one.  It's quite literally in the post you quote.